Personally, I'm going to listen to what President Obama says tomorrow night- and see what I think

[depakid]

This is a tough call- the guy's thought it over and hasn't made any of the decisions lightly. IMO he deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Not saying I'm going to agree, but this deal's been mismanaged from the outset. Let's see if he has a coherent set of goals toward getting us (and our allies) out of an active military role in the region.

[saltpoint]

1. Your post is the considered thought of an evolved being.

Recommended.

[elleng]

3. Yes it is,

and I hope we have a significant amount of such here.

Thanks, salt.

[saltpoint]

5. Hey elleng. Good to see you.

If we could set up a sort of round-table panel on hot-button issues, I'd want depakid on it, no question.

[elleng]

9. DITTO, salt!

[depakid]

12. I don't know about that- just not really one to jump the gun

The last several days, I've wondered what I would do in a similar situation- and considered the sort of weight that's been on his shoulders.

I also have a great deal of respect for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kilcullen">David Kilcullen - as a military leader, as a cultural anthropologist who's studied extensively in the field (he holds a PhD) and perhaps most importantly- as someone who's gotten it right before.

So when a guy like that delivers an interview like this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/12/obama-us-troops-afghanistan-kilcullen

It's wise to take a little notice.

On the other hand- we should all be well aware that Afghanistan has earned its reputation as the graveyard of empires, and the colossal waste of both lives and resources has to stop at some point. My preference is much sooner than later.

And end it will- one way or another. Hopefully with the region more stable and the people enjoying more fulfilling times. Most people don't realize that back in the 1960's, Afghanistan was actually a pretty cool place. What's happened in the intervening years really is nothing less than a profound series of tragedies.

[saltpoint]

14. If you are looking into things at The Guardian you are consulting one

of the best sources we have.

At one point earlier in the foreign policy commitment debate I considered sending to President Obama a copy of Frank Holt's book INTO THE LAND OF BONES, a study into the vast and complex and empire-defeating landscape of Afghanistan. I settled for an email recommendation instead.

Alexander, astride the most ferocious war horse in history and leading the best-trained army ever, only barely held Bactria, and even then not without regional flare-ups and political betrayals.

It is a punishing land.

I flinch when I remember the Russians' disastrous enterprise there and the Muhajadeens' remarks to the western press about Russia sending more "zinky boys" to Afghanistan, a reference to the zinc-lined coffins young Russian soldiers were sent back home in for burial.

This is scary stuff and I am hearing you loud and clear on the weight the president must carry.

[depakid]

15. I'll have to read that book

Sounds insightful- and quite frankly, a bit disconcerting, given our present situation.

[Beetwasher]

32. Thanks For That Link, Depakid, And Thanks For Your Honesty

I know you've been pretty vocal about your qualms about any escalation, so your post is especially meaningful. It shows your a thoughtful person and I have a lot of respect for that. :thumbsup:

[Divine Discontent]

21. lol...

[saltpoint]

23. ?

I meant what I said.

[AVID]

2. k&r

[ginnyinWI]

me too. because I know two things for sure:

1. He's not Bush--he doesn't go with his gut or the political winds--he is sincerely trying to do his best to solve this terrible problem. In other words I trust this one.

2. He's way smarter than I am (and I'm not dumb), and I know I am in no position to second guess. Most of us sit here making judgements based on only partial knowledge and that isn't fair. We need to listen to him tomorrow and hear his reasoning.

[tblue]

4. He always makes a great, persuasive speech.

I will listen, too.

[GeorgeGist]

30. Will you die?

[Tumbulu]

6. me too, I will listen.

My nephew served in Iraq (1 yr) and Afghanistan (1 yr) and he goes on and on about how the civilians doing the water and power and other reconstruction projects need to be protected.

My nephew worked hard campaigning for Obama and got all of us to support him early on.

So, I will listen and then decide what I think.

[Cha]

7. Thanks for those words of wisdom..

[wisteria]

8. I agree. The decision has not been undertaken lightly. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

10. Sounds fair to me.

[JoeyT]

11. Yeah, giving him a chance to explain his reasoning can't hurt.

I can't easily imagine anything that would convince me it's a good idea, but I'll at least give him a chance to convince me.

[depakid]

16. Think of the contrast with Bush- that was a guy who really wasn't worth listening to

A serial (actually a pathological) liar- an ill considered ignoramus who was spoon fed his lines by folks with less than admirable intentions (to put it lightly).

Early on in his term, they released his summer reading list- some may recall this. They actually tried to convince us that the guy was going to read Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics. Later, they even posted a review in Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1PY7C8WA6HABX

I pretty much tuned out to anything the man said after that.

[Clio the Leo]

13. Can't ask for more than that. NT

[Oregone]

17. Prediction: He will make it sounds pretty. He will make the mission sound new and different

This is his job. You will go home with a new reason to feel good about more people dying, especially if you give a man the benefit of the doubt in a lost war with no objective.

[depakid]

20. If I had to guess

I would say that we're not going to hear a boatload of chest thumping rah, rah- and that there will be (at least ostensible) objectives laid out.

And remember- our allies- and those who we're in conflict with are also the audience here. My worry is that Kilcullen may be right- we'll see half measures that throw good lives and money after bad.

(Kilcullen you may recall caused something of a stir a couple years back when he called the invasion of Iraq "fucking stupid"). He had to backtrack of course:

Anyone who knows me has been well aware of my position on Iraq for years. When I went to Iraq in 2007 (and on both previous occasions) it was to end the war, by suppressing the violence and defeating the insurgency. (Note: I said END the war, not abandon it half-way through, leaving the Iraqis to be slaughtered. When we invaded Iraq, we took on a moral and legal responsibility for its people's wellbeing. Regardless of anyone's position on the decision to invade, those obligations still stand and cannot be wished away merely because they have proven inconvenient)...The question of whether we were right to invade Iraq is a fascinating debate for historians and politicians, and a valid issue for the American people to consider in an election year. As it happens, I think it was a mistake. But that is not my key concern. The issue for practitioners in the field is not to second-guess a decision from six years ago, but to get on with the job at hand which, I believe, is what both Americans and Iraqis expect of us. In that respect, the new strategy and tactics implemented in 2007, and which relied for their effectiveness on the extra troop numbers of the Surge, ARE succeeding and need to be supported.

I suspect we may hear something similar to this.

[Divine Discontent]

22. preach it. sadly, he can make billions for warfare sound good with his great charisma.

this is one of those issues I soundly disagree with him on. There's a couple, more I agree, but some of the big ones, man, he couldn't do any more to make DICK CHENEY's cold piece of coal in his chest beat any faster!

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. I will too and I hate War and violence

I know what a mess that place is because of Bush's handling of it but want
to see what Obama has to say before I get really pissed.

He has my ear and I still support him.

Imagine listening to McCain during these times?
I just heard him on the radio and he's one angry senile old man
with a very annoying voice.

[optimator]

19. as long as he provides evidence and facts

and PROVES that the USA is going to be invaded and overthrown by the dirt poor, scanty Af/Pak muslim farmers, then I will consider supporting a DEFENSIVE WAR.
Otherwise he might as well not give a speech, because bravado and PR marketing (ala Bush) aren't going to change any minds.

[Sherman A1]

24. Wow! What a novel concept.........

That is precisely my plan as well. I do believe just as you that it is a tough call, he has gotten as much information (more than I will ever know or see) and thought it over. On top of which he's a pretty bright guy ( I didn't vote for him because I thought I would agree with him all the time, I voted for him because he was the smartest guy in the room). Yet, I can watch it on C-Span (skip the commentaries) and draw my own conclusions, because I too am a thinking adult.

[ChicagoSuz219]

25. I agree...

...this is not a President who goes off half-cocked. He is thoughtful, measured, smart & privy to much more information than the rest of us.

I'm sure he won't send one troop, spend one dollar or stay one day longer than he feels he absolutely has to.

On a positive note, it seems as if Iraq is starting to draw down.

Keep that whole region in a white light!

[jefferson_dem]

26. K/R.

:thumbsup:

[CTLawGuy]

27. what is this "benefit of the doubt" thing

you speak of?

[azmouse]

28. K&R

[GeorgeGist]

29. bully for you

[Beetwasher]

31. That's Really The Only Reasonable Thing To Do, And I Would Add That No Matter WHAT His Decision Is

I will still support him. I can disagree vehemently with his decision and policy on Afghanistan, but still support him on many other issues.

[stubtoe]

33. Recommending, for a rare voice of sanity on this issue.

[ShortnFiery]

34. I'm not. His Press Secretary, Robert Gibbs is already into FULL Orwellian Speak:

"Join us Citizen! It's NOT about escalating the war, it's about winning the war." :puke:

No, it shows how LITTLE respect President Obama has for the Average American when he's seemingly ANNOUNCED his strategy to everyone BUT us peasant classes.

I'm in full Anti-War mode and will not stop until our troops are back from BOTH Hell Holes. Everyday our combat troops are OCCUPYING those Muslim nations, Americans are LESS SAFE.

[FiveGoodMen]

35. I'm with you.

Don't care much what he says, don't care at all how well he says it.

We shouldn't be there.

We're killing civilians.

We're getting our own soldiers killed.

We're destroying our own economy.

We won't win.

No speech can change any of that.

But a good speaker can pull a lot of wool over a lot of eyes.

[Born_A_Truman]

36. Novel idea around here!

[Cha]

37. Yeah, and I knew Pres Obama was going to

focus on Afghanistan because his intel deemed it the right thing to do.