More liberal? Barack Obama or Bill Clinton?

[HughMoran]

Poll question: More liberal? Barack Obama or Bill Clinton?

Is President Barack Obama more liberal than President William Jefferson Clinton was?

[Ozymanithrax]

1. Bill Clinton was the best Classic Conservative President since Eisenhower...

I don't think this question can be answered until 2012, or 2016 if Obama is re-elected.

But, in his first 2 years he has tended to be more successful than Clinton with health care reform. He appears, at this moment to have rescued the economy from a much worse economic disaster.

[HughMoran]

5. I think you're right - it's perhaps a bit early to judge Obama

Obama may end up being the standard bearer for liberal Presidents over an extended period of time (30+ years.)

[Clio the Leo]

2. There's a graph for that....

Bill Clinton
"Bill Clinton is a moderate liberal"

http://archive.ontheissues.org/Bill_Clinton.htm



Obama
"Barack Obama is a hard core liberal"

http://archive.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm




And our control....

Dennis Kucinich
Dennis Kucinich is a Hard-Core Liberal.

http://archive.ontheissues.org/OH/Dennis_Kucinich.htm

[HughMoran]

3. lol - that's one measure

I'm not sure what's on people's minds who are voting, but the results thus far are 'about the same' - which is an interesting result. I suppose the results may change after Obama has had more time to fully flush out his agenda.

[wolfgangmo]

46. Hate to break it to you sparky...

... but in almost any other industrialized nation, Dennis Kucinich (and I love the guy) is NOT liberal or hard core liberal. He would be considered a moderate liberal.

[Clio the Leo]

49. You do remember what a scientific control is right?

The point was not whether Dennis Kucinich is a liberal, a neo-con or a teabagger, or how highly he polls in Sweden. The point was that he was the standard by with Clinton and Obama were compared .... in THIS particular study.

Sparky.

[Name removed]

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[NCarolinawoman]

7. Bill Clinton appointed Bruce Babbitt as Interior Secretary.

Babbitt was former head of the League of Conservation Voters and after leaving his position as Interior Secretary, he became head of the World Wildlife Fund. In other words, Clinton's Interior Secretary was a REAL environmentalist.

Babbitt was also the guy who re-introduced the wolves to the Yellowstone area; not the guy
(Salizar) who ordered them to be shot.

This is why I voted for Bill Clinton in your poll.

[HughMoran]

8. So of all the dozens of issues that separate the 2 men, Interior Secretary is kingmaker?

Interesting...

[NCarolinawoman]

9. In the greater scheme of things, I would say it's VERRRRY important.

Always has been for me. :-)

[HughMoran]

17. Extremely important

The President has so many important responsibilities that shape our country moving forward. The oil disaster does bring his man here into focus - he does seem to be pro oil :(

[polichick]

27. Yes, he is - that's why so many of us were screaming when Obama chose him...

A disastrous choice, and we knew it. (Like all of his industry insider choices.)

Neither Clinton nor Obama are progressives, but both conned the voters when they ran. I remember how thrilled I was when Clinton chose Al Gore for veep and when I read that book they wrote about what they were going to do in office, especially regarding the environment. Little was ever done, though Gore pushed for it.

Clinton and Obama use their charm and ability with words to con voters while they serve corporate America.

[NorthCarolina]

53. The DLC makes no secret about 'Run Left, Govern Right' as their SOP n/t

[polichick]

54. That's true - they're proud of the con. I'll always vote progressive in the primary...

I hope Obama is primaried from the left even if he still gets the nomination - just to remind him of liberal values and policies.

[NorthCarolina]

55. I always vote Liberal/Progressive in the primaries as well. n/t

[PSzymeczek]

10. Does it matter?

They're both DLC. They're both spliced at the hip to Rahm Emmanuel. They're both AIPAC.

[HughMoran]

13. Sorry, I'm not adding "does it matter?" to the poll

These are the choices we have for Democratic Presidents in the past 30 years - you may not like the direction in which the country has turned in our lifetimes, but these are the choices; labels won't change that.

[Drunken Irishman]

11. A post I did in the BOG on this a while back...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x17723

[HughMoran]

15. Good read

I missed that one - thanks for posting the link. I do think it's an interesting question to pose to see what people are thinking at this time - whether it's a fair comparison or not. The more interesting thing I'm noticing are those who are insulted just to see those 2 names in one place - as if Democrats are just that awful. Well, this is what we have had in the past 30 years, you might want to start accepting that liberalism was on the wane for a long ass time and still hasn't fully recovered.

[Kalun D]

20. Liberalism Isn't On the Wane

Our government is totally corrupted by the greed pig corporations.

Clinton balanced the budget

Obama has gone in the opposite direction

Clinton raised taxes on the rich to balance that budget

Obama promised to raise taxes on the rich but didn't do it.

[HughMoran]

37. "...was on the wane..."

At least read it correctly...

[spiritual_gunfighter]

12. Is this a trick question? n/t

[Mojambo]

14. Obama, marginally. n/t

[Jennicut]

16. Do we know yet? We had 8 years of Clinton and 1 and not quite a half of Obama.

I always think of Obama as being slightly to the left of Clinton but we shall see in the long run...

[HughMoran]

18. Policy record does help, but we should be able to judge their basic philisophical approaches

and have a gut feel about this. I do have to admit to having forgot a lot of what Clinton was doing though - DI's link above helped jar my memory though.

[Forkboy]

19. This far into Bill's term I felt pretty much the same as I do one year into Obama's.

So I'm going with pretty much the same. Too early to tell for sure one way or the other though what the answer will really be by 2016.

[CTLawGuy]

21. keep in mind, all, that Bill Clinton

signed:

-DADT
-DOMA
-repeal of Glass Steagall
-welfare reform
-AEDPA
-telecommunications deregulation (1996)
-DMCA

[cornermouse]

22. Obama

Renewal of Homeland Security and Patriot Act
Escalation of war in Afghanistan and failure to get out of Iraq
Failure to close Guantanamo
Giving the okay to murder American citizens elsewhere without the "luxury" of a trial
Bailing out Wall Street and the bankers only to see them continue business as usual without any retaliation from Obama or Congress.


People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

[CTLawGuy]

23. not even close to bill clinton

I didn't know Obama was signing Republican legislation into law, laws that took away or frustrated rights for LGBT persons, that deregulated industries.

surprised you didn't put "failed to repeal DADT and DOMA" on there, that would have been funny!

[cornermouse]

39. You're right. Obama's worse.

Oh. And I have proof but its easy to find. By the way. Here's your link to nowhere but it looks good so I'm adding it.
http://www.gov.com/

I think that about covers it.

[CTLawGuy]

60. worse than bill clinton?

love your plethora of supporting argumentation.

bye bye, to the ignore list. I refuse to deal with the irrational.

[CTyankee]

33. Yes, which is why I opposed so many of these things when he was president. HOWEVER,

that was then, this is now. He has recanted publicly on DADT and DOMA and he may have already uttered doubts on repeal of Glass Steagall. I think he would qualify his regret over welfare reform (syaing that not enough for a safety net was done). I don't know what AEDPA or DMCA are and I don't know whether he regrets telecommunications deregulation...

[CTLawGuy]

61. what's the difference between then and now?

did the definition of Liberal change in 15 years?

[CTyankee]

68. No, my point was that Clinton has now stated his regret on some of the positions

he took then. He says now that he was wrong on DOMA and DADT. I take him at his word because I have no reason not to. It's the old "shoulda, coulda, woulda" thing...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

24. WOW!! I want to hear from those who say NO. My answer is that Obama is slightly more

liberal...for now. He hasn't been in office long enough to see just how conservative he really is.

But, Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've ever had, as they say.

All the problems that we face now, from NAFTA to deregulation the FCC/media and of the financial markets; from DADT to DOMA; and everything else in between can be laid at the feet of President Clinton. I love Bill, but I would not put "liberal" and "Bill Clinton" in the same sentence.

Now that he is out of office, he is conventiently "FOR" gay marriage, he claims. Well, thanks a lot Bill. Why weren't you this "enlightened" while you were in office?

[VMI Dem]

26. What is Barack Obama's more liberal view of gay marriage?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

36. At the very least, he stood up in a black church in Atlanta (that my

grandmother attends), and bravely admonished blacks for homophobic prejudices. I don't recall Bill ever doing that. Obama could have stepped in the California anti-gay marriage mess by supporting the overturning of the gay marriage law, but he didn't.

And I will never forget how Bill touting how he got DOMA through. He essentially ran on DOMA to get southern states like GA onboard. Though Obama hasn't yet repealed DOMA or DADT, I'll have to wait and see what he actually does.

http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2008/03/25/student-challenges-bill-clinton-on-doma/

I'm not saying that he is that much more liberal than Bill. All I can go on is their respective policies. And Obama hasn't done quite enough to make a judgement at this point. The fact that Bill left him to clean up DOMA and DADT; really, given the current contentious political environment, you cannot hold Obama accountable if he doesn't act quickly on these policies.

Again, as I stated before, it is easier for Bill now to come out in favor of gay marriage. He's no longer in politics. I wish he was for gay marriage and took a bold stand against discrimination while he was still in office.

Just my views.

[polichick]

28. My feelings about them are in #27 - neither progressive, both con men...

Which isn't to say that they both don't do/did some very good things.

Obama showed his disdain for liberals when he chose Rick Warren for day one - and he hasn't stopped showing it since.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

38. Obama has sadly demonstrated great disdain for liberals. Don't know if this is

Rahambo's doing or his own. Seeing as though he also excluded liberals from discussions re: single payer at the very begining; and, how he continues to coddle and kiss Republicans' asses even though they hate him and will never go along with him on anything. I don't understand it and never will.

But again, I'm just going on the record and what each man says.

The more I witness, the more I'm inclined to believe that Bill and Obama are one in the same; Obama only slightly to the left of Bill because he's not DLC. We'll see.

[polichick]

42. Obama says he's a "New Democrat" - isn't that the same as DLC? nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. Not necessarily, but close. However, now that I think about it, he did claim to be

a "Clinton Democrat," so you may be right after all and there's really no difference.

[harun]

41. No vote.

Bill Clinton did more for minorities, esp. African Americans.
Bill Clinton would never have escalated violence in Afghanistan.
Bill Clinton reduced military spending.
Bill Clinton reduced the national debt.
Bill Clinton balanced the budget.
Bill Clinton didn't hire Rahm Emmanual as his Chief of Staff.
Bill Clinton tried to improve relations with Cuba.
Bill Clinton would not have continued the occupation of Iraq.
Bill Clinton didn't try to make Republicans love him every step of the way.
Bill Clinton at least threw a few bones to the Progressives, Obama's bones are all to the GOP.

[Romulox]

44. Of those things: NAFTA, DADT, DOMA, etc. Which does Obama oppose?

:wtf: :shrug:

[wolfgangmo]

47. Aren't you being a little circular firing squadish?

Forgetting the man who made all of this possible including the laying the groudwork for the environment and spin that made the 1994 rethug takeover of congress possible?

My vote for the worst president EVER would have to be St. Ronnie of Raygun. That bastard couldn't even say the word gay and he stalled federal response to the emerging AID's crisis and likely killed thousands by his intransigence. Don't even get me started on Iran Contra, or negotiating to keep American's hostage after they were to be freed, or ... fuck the crimes he is responsible are legion. How about making supply side economics acceptable to the average schmuck?

[flaminbats]

65. healthcare reform was the standard I used for voting no

Clinton's health care reform bill would have done more, including a requirement for employers to pay 80% of their workers premium. but Obama passed his bill, without the employer mandate and cigarette tax.

Clinton raised tax rates in 1993, but Obama has passed a few tax credits since he was elected.

I think the real test will be if Obama allows the Bush tax breaks to expire, then I'll think Clinton and Obama are about the same

[VMI Dem]

25. About the same. Moderates.

[freddie mertz]

29. Obama may be more conservative in relation to the present Dem party base...

Than Clinton was.

Or maybe I am being too optimistic.

[BootinUp]

30. What people always seem to overlook

is that Clinton's policies were very much effected by the times just as Obama's are. We are in a time when more reversal of past policy is possible and Obama is taking advantage of that. On balance they are pretty close ideologically in my opinion, maybe Obama is a little less conservative economically hard to say.

[old mark]

31. I believe they are pretty evenly matched. Both are about as "progressive"

as Nixon was, but they both took a lot of heat for being liberal, even radical, from the RW idiot corps.


mark

[BootinUp]

32. Comparisons to Nixon are just a little insulting

don't ya think?

Sure he had some liberal ideas but if had a congress he wanted he would have pushed the envelope more the other way. As I said in my previous post, factor in the times/constraints on politicians to call for what they really want to do.

Nixon was terrible on civil liberty and transparency which are liberal values I think.

[old mark]

34. Not really...Nixon had at least part of a plan for health insurance reform,

he did manage to end the Vietnam war by engaging the native troops, as in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. He traveled to China and opened negotiations with them after decades of hateful hostility. I think many of Obama's policies would fit neatly into Nixon's playbook and I don't think it is insulting at all - all too accurate, really. that's where Obama is and where Clinton was, too - but without so much congressional support.


We all have become so conservative now that Nixon looks like a leftist.


mark

[wolfgangmo]

48. Good points.

Nixon was our last good democratic president.

[old mark]

51. Well, LBJ was certainly much more liberal than anyone since - and applying

the standards GOP today-when Arlen Specter and John McCain are called "liberal" by the nutsey right- Nixon may well have had to run as a Democrat.

mark

[TwilightGardener]

35. I think he is slightly more liberal than Clinton.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. Same. nt

[Romulox]

43. They are precisely the same. Neither is a liberal by any stretch. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

45. Adjusted for era Clinton was more liberal

Clinton came into office and pushed through a controversial advance in gay rights that carried a hellish political cost.

(DADT seems conservative today but was quite forward leaning in 1993.)

Clinton pushed a health care bill that was obviously beyond what was politically possible, since it failed despite total effort and commitment.

So Clinton HCR was more liberal, or at least more politically agressive in a liberal cause, relatively. By the standards of 1993.

And so on.

Comparing policies head-to-head across eras? Of course Obama is more liberal. And twenty years from now Obama will appear to have been a moderate Republican. And so on.

Assuming we progress.

Imagine nightmare world where 100 years from now people are saying Obama was out most liberal president ever!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. accounting for the fact that 16 years have passed, and opinions by and large are more progressive?

i would say, about the same

[Celeborn Skywalker]

66. I think people are more socially progressive now.

However, I also notice that people seem to be more economically conservative than we've seen in a while.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. yes. you are right. i think we are moving in a libertarian direction. its unsustainable though

[TheKentuckian]

56. Pretty similar. maybe Clinton by a hair coming off of the Reagan Revulsion and lower

numbers in Congress to work with but both have turned out to be corporate leaning fiscal conservatives and mediocre on civil rights and liberties.

[HughMoran]

57. As long as it wasn't "Clinton by a pubic hair"

:rofl:

[TheKentuckian]

58. CLASSIC!!! Not my style but now I wish I had said that now LOL!!!

[hulka38]

59. Which was the better movie

Showgirls or Beastmaster III: The Eye of Braxus?

[hayu_lol]

62. The determining factor for me...

is Arne Duncan. If we don't have decent schools, how can we have decent citizens?

Clinton also was outrageously attacked from day one. The new guy, nah.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. I voted about the same.

But we'll see I guess.

[Beacool]

64. Is this really needed?

Neither one will ever be progressive enough for the left. Although I would take Bill, personal flaws and all, over Obama any day of the week.

:shrug:

[blue_onyx]

69. I view them as being about the same

Both are moderates.

[flaminbats]

70. I agree and I voted no..

I think when people are asked "is Obama is more liberal than Clinton?" those who vote about the same are basically voting no.

But its an interesting question and an interesting poll. :popcorn:

[besdayz]

71. on social issues yes

on guns, clinton more liberal
on health care, about the same--although the clintons went to the mat to fight for single payer....
on foreign policy--so far clinton, more proactive middle east peace strategy
2 wars is hard to forget with obama, but that he is so dogged to fight a failing battle is worrisome. at least clinton pulled out of somalia and didn't try to take over that country. although he can be criticized for not being quick enough in his humanitarian responses. so far no humanitarian stuff for obama yet.

on environment--obama
on power of the presidency--clinton

[mmonk]

72. Since neither are liberal, I don't get the point.

Maybe Obama is playing some economic clean up after Gramm-Leach-Bliley and repeal of Glass Steagall (though not enough). Nafta was pretty bad. Other than that, hard to tell. Maybe Obama, who knows.

[tbyg52]

73. >>Since neither are liberal

Bingo.

[greencharlie]

74. more liberal personally or the way they govern? nt