Why I support the President

[mvd]

Something I like about DU is the diversity of opinion, and when civil, we have healthy debates. It's a nice contrast from the lock-step Republican Party. Yes, I have had disagreements with the President on the wars (though we should be getting out of Iraq soon,) health care, education, civil liberties, the bipartisan/compromise philosophy, the nomination of Geithner, etc. But he saved the economy with the stimulus, restored some dignity internationally, gave middle class tax cuts, helped diversity the Supreme Court, and wants to combat global climate change. And virtually all Republicans are either crazy or crazier - the party is represented by the Teabaggers, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, and class warfare (as we see in CA and NJ.) They are dangerous when in power. So agree or disagree with me on supporting Obama, this point is something we should all keep in mind. My grade for President Obama is B- so far, but any Republican would be F or F-!

[zipplewrath]

1. He ignores me

I can't "support" him, or not support him, when all he does is ignore me. He goes over to Fox News and brags that he rejects progressive ideas. He delays or reverses the decisions most important to me. He continues, with little modification, many of the basic policies of the Bush Administration that I objected to the most.

He's a C at best. Yes, he's better than a republican because he allows for a few of the basic democratic positions to be advanced. He appoints LESS objectionable candidates to the SC.

But he was elected to "change", and not just around the edges.

[TheWraith]

3. Your characterization is wholly wrong.

You massively overstate the bad and ignore the good.

[zipplewrath]

7. Matter of priorities.

Doesn't matter how good the ingredients are for the punch, if there is one turd floating in it, the rest is meaningless. It's all a matter of what is more important to a person. Extra helpings of broccoli don't matter if you don't like the main course.

[treestar]

34. I hate perfectionists

They ruin everything in life.

[rhett o rick]

35. Some of us set our goals a little higher than you. I just ask that the policies of Bush be undone.

Is that being a perfectionist? I want DADT ended, the wars ended, the Patriot Act repealed, Glass-Stegal reinstated, more regulations and enforcement to prevent oil spill disasters, etc. Oh yeah, I want the fucked up DOJ cleaned up.

[treestar]

37. Your high horse is noted

If we got you everything you want, you'd just want more.

You're so much better than the rest of us. We know. You demand the best.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr.Phool]

40. Another thread hijacker.

I just ignore them. Life is much easier. I don't know what they said, but it must have been good.

[rhett o rick]

47. Yes I should know not to respond. The ignore feature is my friend. nm

[tavalon]

39. I sense you're about to trot out the pony

Trust me when I say that would be a really bad idea. Let's have discourse, not point scoring.

[TheWraith]

42. Off that list...

The wars have end dates. The POTUS has committed to ending DADT. They're passing the Wall Street reform bill right now. Environmental regulation you can bet is the next thing on the table. So basically it's a question of the PATRIOT Act, and purging the DOJ of Bushies, both of which will certainly take years.

[zipplewrath]

44. Not exactly

The wars don't have end dates, not if you read the fine print. He has "start of the end" dates, and they have dates at which they will end, except if they decide they shouldn't. The closest is the SOFA, negotiated under Bush, that is one of the softest ends in the book. All "combat" troops out, or some such loophole.

The POTUS is the one taking the lead on delaying the end of DADT.

They are passing some sort of reform, it will be interesting what comes out of the process. After what we saw with the Health Insurance Industry Stimulus Package, I'm not encouraged. Again, the WH is the one pushing it to the right.

They've already signaled that they're gonna cave on cap and trade, so again, a bit like health care, I'm not holding my breath for anything particularly progressive. On this one though, one can at least expect that anything they pass will be notibly better than anything we'd get under a GOP administration, even if it leaves much to be desired.

The list is much longer than this really, but the Gitmo stuff just really toasts me.

[rhett o rick]

51. Exactly. nm

[rhett o rick]

50. You are much more optimistic than me. End dates for the wars are arbitrary and IMO will be moved

back. The POTUS committing to ending DADT? In what year? There is no reason that I can see to wait. There is no need to wait to fix regulations or at least have them enforced. We are still giving environmental waivers for off-shore drilling. That could end in a day. It is common for presidents to replace all the US Attorneys soon after taking office. And since GW Bush appointed such partisan US Attorneys and then replaced those that werent evil enough, Obama should have replaced them immediately. But unless it slipped my notice, Pres Obama is using the highly partisan, and in some cases criminal, Republican US Attorneys. He could end secret prisons and torture (I need independent corroboration that torture isnt being used). And our government is still illegally spying on our citizens.

I understand that legislation can be tough but a lot of these issues can be fixed by executive orders, enforcing existing regulations, etc.
And these issues dont have to be worked on in series.

[mvd]

4. I understand your frustration

But it's not all the President. Congress is not exactly welcoming to a progressive platform. Yes the President sets the tone, but I think we've got to move the political landscape left again.

[zipplewrath]

6. He pushes congress to the right

People make excuses for him, but he takes the right side of issues and pushes the House to the right, not to the left. Congress didn't tell him to keep Gates. They didn't tell him to appoint Timmy. He's asking congress to hold back on DADT.

[mvd]

10. Hopefully if we apply the pressure (like he said), he'll move left

Congress has a lot of conservative and moderate Democrats, too, so it was always going to be a challenge for President Obama.

[zipplewrath]

43. I get the impression he's the most conservative of them

Even when there are opportunities on the left, he pushes right.

[Cha]

14. I've decided to Ignore you.

[MadBadger]

15. That a new one...Obama sucking up to Fox News.

Cuz the way I see it, he boycotted them for a long time. Now there isnt a boycott, but any relationship with Fox can best be described as "chilly"

[Cha]

17. Little teeny tiny

narrow minds could make any case for the President "ignoring" them. We had a great satire OP the other night on why the President is ignoring that particular person..it was Priceless.

[NJmaverick]

25. He isn't ignoring you, he is being president to all the 100s of millions of Americans

that means no single person is going to get exactly what they want.

[Dr.Phool]

41. Neither are millions of us who voted for "change".

Because there ain't much.

Just "change" we can make believe in.

[NJmaverick]

53. Open your eyes, there has been DRASTIC change

[zipplewrath]

56. Yes there has

We're now up to 100K troops in Afghanistan.
We have cadillac taxes
We have mandated health insurance.
They're working with Lindsey Grahm to make Gitmo a permanent feature of our justice system.
We are working on weakening Miranda rights
Torture photos are now classified by the authority of the SecDef.


There's change you can believe in.

[zipplewrath]

45. I understand that

The original post was about "supporting" the president. I repeatedly point out that the truth is there is no real "support" to be given, or witheld. He isn't paying any attention to me (or those of like mind) and he doesn't really want to. Quite the opposite, he uses us as a foil to pit against those furthest on his right. I understand it, but I don't have to like it. Truth is I would be foolish to enjoy it.

He's a centrist, That's a huge disappointment and there's not thing one I can do about it.

[NJmaverick]

52. Support can come in the form of taking out right wing false talking points

the right is always working to take down Dems and regain power. It's our moral imperative to make sure that don't succeed.

[zipplewrath]

54. Mission impossible

I do have to laugh, I'm surrounded by right wingers at work. I spend a tremendous amount of time attempting to inject some facts into their day. I end up "defending" to a great extent, many things that Obama is doing. But it's that soft sorta "it could be worse" defense. Alot of these wingers were the ones complaining alot about some of Bush's less "conservative" actions. I often point out that they now have the "bush" they always wish they did. You can imagine how far that flies.

[dionysus]

57. how ever shall we survive without your support.

:rofl:

[zipplewrath]

61. Did you read the OP

I was responding to a comment about "supporting" Obama. You think rather highly of yourself to think you were included in that in anyway.

[Blue-Jay]

73. You're feeling ignored by the president?

You the fuck are you, anyhow?

[zipplewrath]

78. Did you read?

A big part of my point is that "supporting" a president (or not) is a relatively meaningless expression in any functional sense. Individually he basically doesn't listen to any of us. Additionally, in a functional sense, I have not "vote" to give on anything with him until November of 2012. It was in response to a person that said they still "supported" the president.

It would be even more silly for me to express such a thing because of course he openly admits, and brags really, that he rejects much of what I believe in and seek in terms of his actions. He excludes many of the people who agree with me, and includes those that oppose me. That is what is meant by "being ignored".

And that's part of who I am.

[Blue-Jay]

80. I only read subject lines.

That's how I roll.

I'm sorry that you wasted keystrokes that I can't be bothered to peruse. I'm sort of an idiot.

[zipplewrath]

82. Put me on your ignore list, please (nt)

[Blue-Jay]

83. No way. I love you too much.

[JTFrog]

2. K&R

[socialist_n_TN]

5. This ties in to another thread

I participated in today.

I think that the biggest problem Obama has with the left is expectations. We EXPECTED more from him than he's given SO FAR. It would be hard for me to argue that Obama is not a LOT better than any Republican today and it would be hard for me to argue that he hasn't been competent. I think that he's DEFINITELY both. And he does have another 2.5 years (or so) to do better by his progressive supporters. Will he? NOT unless we force him to.

Obama was and is a centrist politician. But he's also pragmatic. He'll move left, BUT ONLY IF WE MOVE HIM. He won't go there on his own.

I give him a C. And that's a damn shame that a C is the best and most competent POTUS that we've had in DECADES! A damn shame.

[lunatica]

9. I think he would move left if there are enough crises

The particular set of things happening right now could force him to move left as an actual pragmatic choice. The economy, climate change, man made disasters like the Gulf of Mexico oil gush and natural disasters like the volcano in Iceland, the floods in Tennessee the earthquake in Haiti and Chile, the possible downfall of the EU and the Euro. Everything seems to be converging into a major shakeup on the planet both naturally and man made. And it could keep happening.

I think Obama has been trying to 'restore' what we had in the past but just like the United States changed so drastically after the Great Depression and WWII I think we're about to go through that same kind of fundamental change again. FDR stepped up to the plate and implemented changes, but he wouldn't have done it if the times didn't demand it. I think Obama is facing something similar. A fundamental change of government and economy. What Progressives know is that the time has come to do the hard work of creating something new based on our collective knowledge of where the old went wrong. I think Obama is still not convinced that the old needs to be abandoned. He wants to salvage when the times call for a major overhaul.

He will respond to it. I think he wants to move slowly and methodically to restore. It won't work though. He'll have to realize that putting his finger in the dike isn't the solution. Who knows what is, but it probably means the dike has to be destroyed and rebuilt in a way that it won't leak the same way again.

[Hansel]

24. I think he would move left with more support in the Senate.

There are too many DINO s in the Senate, and Congress, for that matter.

Nearly all of the current Republicans, along with the DINOs, are inept and don't give a crap about people or this country, IMO. All they care about is getting reelected and funneling money into their campaigns, and landing a cushy job at some major corporation. I don't believe they stand for anything except their own careers and pocketbooks which is why they are able to lie so easily.

I believe the vast majority on the left do want to govern and do care about people. It's just hard for them to do because they are not as ruthless as the sleaze on the right.

Howard Dean was right. If you want a progressive nation, you need to start from the bottom up. Work like hell to get progressives elected to lower level offices and the cream will rise to the top. It would be the perfect dispersing agent to get rid of the scum that has been rising to the top with too few exceptions at this point.

[zipplewrath]

46. Why?

I mean really, we're talking about the man that's surrounded himself with something less than the most progressive staff. Clinton, Gates, Rahm, Timmy, these aren't hard core progressives. He doesn't describe himself as one, and by all public indications prefers to be considered a moderate/centrist. He's supporting Spector for goodness sakes. He protects Lieberman. It would have been "retarded" to expose the conservadems for what they were. He's the one holding up DADT when the Senate is OFFERING to act this year. He voted for telecom immunity when he was a senator. He doubled down in Afghanistan. He's not pursued one single person over the torture that everyone admits went on. Where in any of this do you see a desire to "move left"?

[socialist_n_TN]

58. It's ALL speculation until we have a leftist majority

We don't KNOW what Obama will do or even what his core principles are until he's faced with a sign or veto choice on some SERIOUS progressive legislation. And that means taking Dr. Dean's suggestion and electing leftists.

[zipplewrath]

59. Okay , but the question was why

why would anyone presume that this president that doesn't like to be called a progressive or a liberal, who is currently ruling from the center, and is backing right leaning democrats in primaries, why would anyone presume that a move left in the Senate would move some how "free him up" to move left?

[suzie]

89. Are you a prosecutor?

Because if you're not, then perhaps you should leave out the "he's not pursued one single person over the torture that everyone admits went on".

But of course, it's such a great talking point that I'm sure something like whether such cases could be prosecuted is of little importance--in the virtual world.

[Forkboy]

8. K&R for trying to see both sides.

:kick:

[whatchamacallit]

11. A+ for style, D- for substance

Sorry, I don't know if "the devil you know" is gonna be enough.

[mvd]

12. Here's how I personally get my grade

Economics/environment - B-
Health Care - C
Education - C-
Foreign Policy - B-
Civil Liberties - C
Social Policy - B
Curve based on extent of Bush damage/Congress/amount of accomplishments - +1/3 grade

Overall: B-

[annabanana]

13. pretty good... I will give him a c+ on health care though

if the rules written to adopt the law are strict and they don't stand for any insurance company shilly-shallying.

[rasputin1952]

16. There have been problems, but that is always a given...

thinking about the GOP in charge again gives me nightmares!

I thnk the GOP has gone into serious remorse and they know they are about to be the Party of Doom. The have relatively little support these days, simply because they have no ideas, and have been nothing but obstructionists, even to things the GOP basically agrees on.

Teabaggers have corrupted support even further, the dust that will settle will be the crushed Party of No.

There is dissatisfaction amongst factions in the D party, but all things considered, the D's have gotten quite a bit done over the past year and a half, more is to come. I'd prefer to see D's stand up to the R's and bury them once and for all in the House and Senate...but that will come in due time...:)

[mvd]

27. Hi, ras

Love your positive thinking. There are days I get quite down on politics, but I don't think just complaining will bring a brighter future..

[DevonRex]

18. I applaud you mvd. You're a down-to-earth liberal. You have

real values and hopes and dreams for the future. You know that teabagger rule can actually destroy those hopes and dreams for all of us for decades to come. We are at a critical point in the US. We didn't think the GOP could get much worse but we were wrong. It has gotten much, much worse with the advent of the teabaggers.

They have already made inroads with the ouster of Bennett in Utah. Some people shrug at that, saying that Utah would have been republican anyway. But there's nothing scarier than an actual teabagger-approved Senator, unless it's a teabagger-approved Republican president.

Thank you for your post.

[mvd]

21. Glad you liked it, DevonRex

My hope is that the Teabaggers fraction the Repukes so much that the Party can't control the rhetoric and it comes out how extreme they are. :hi:

[JNelson6563]

19. Yeah, love the diversity.

I am shocked just now to find a pro-Obama OP locked because of the "diverse" opinions. I swear there are days I suspect I could find more intelligent discussion at the high schoool cafeteria.

Julie--sadly watching DU taken over by shit flinging monkeys

[mvd]

26. Hi, JNelson6563

The moderators really try. We can always be contacted by PM, and the admins of this site can be contacted with concerns.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Obama C-/D moving toward F fast/TeaPubliKlans a solid F-- ------------------------------ and falling

Sure, Obama is full of bogus quarter solutions for crushing problems that mostly end up being profit centers for corporate pirate cartels and producing minimal if any positive overall traction.

The stimulus wasn't some stroke of outside the box genius but something that about every sane economist was screaming for, the wiser ones wanted MUCH more. The stimulus bill was necessary not some inspired thinking or great "progressive" action. It was an absolutely critical initiative that ended up being too small to impact employment on the scale needed that even most Republicans would have been at least forced to do if they were in office.

Pukes are only acting like the stimulus is the worst thing ever because a Democrat put it out and Democrats voted for it, don't take their nonsense seriously, they would have almost certainly done the same thing in the same place. The tax cuts are part of the stimulus though a TeaPubliKlan would surely send more of it to big corporations or the rich rather than most Americans but that's probably the most legitimate difference in how it would have gone down with your average puke in office.

[mvd]

22. Wanted the stimulus to be bigger. But he needed the Repuke support

On health care it was different as the President should have pushed for the public option like he did for passage in the final days. But the economy couldn't wait; I think it was one compromise that was necessary.

[NJmaverick]

23. Well said!

:applause:

[Peacetrain]

28. Any republican is an F-.. so true... K&R

[grantcart]

29. The value of diversity you speak of is under constant pressure to assume

orthodox positions of pure ideology. Sometimes these positions are based on exceptionally poor basis of fact.

Yes it would be interesting to see what the President's administration would be like if it the majority of the time wasn't spent on fixing the calamity that he inherited, but that is not the reality we are in.

[TheKentuckian]

30. Right, a diversity of race and gender but not of thought, status, or ideals

[ProgressOnTheMove]

31. Exactly it's easy to get too comfortable too quickly and forget just how worse it could be.

[Chemisse]

32. I really agree with you on this

I have been upset about some things Obama has done, or not done, and pleased with some other things.

It's good to make our voices heard, whether in praise or in criticism. But moaning in misery and refusing to vote, or (worse!) voting Republican,is simply shooting ourselves in the feet.

It's always better to be constructive than destructive. When primary season comes, we need to evaluate the options, then take action, whether that is supporting Obama or a primary challenger. At this point, and most probably at primary time as well, Obama is the best game in town.

[mvd]

33. Yep. Obama is what we have right now

While I think he has skewed his priorities more to the center than the left, I'm willing to wait and see if he has a strategy and if it works. When we aren't happy, we should constructively let him know - Obama doesn't consider himself like a king like Bush did.

[rhett o rick]

36. IMO Obama didnt "save" the economy with the stimulus. The stimulus was an infusion of cash

(borrowed cash) to keep the bubble going. He has done nothing, no one single thing to fix the problems that wrecked the economy. He hiring of Summers, Geitner and Bernanke is putting the foxes in charge of guarding the hen house. We need legislation and soon.

[mkultra]

55. History shows that without the deficit spending

We would have been negative jobs for a decade. I applaud him for a borrow and spend approach in the face of recession. Without him, I would probably be jobless right now.

[mvd]

66. I think the Bush depression would have continued without action

I know from my old economics classes that recessions/booms are cyclical, but sometimes you've got to take action or the spiral gets worse.

Also, I'm not someone who demands everything similar to my views. There are things Obama could have done differently/more progressively though, and the President is a smart person - so maybe he'll learn bipartisanship doesn't work with these Repukes.

[mkultra]

69. sure, he certainly doesnt do EVERYTHING i want

But i firmly believe that the stimulus package he passed put the breaks on the decline. That recession would have eventually cycled back up after 2020. Economic proof of that is present in the Japanese recession.

I think many people forget that we actually have three branches of government and while Bush abused his office and grabbed power, Obama is not going to do that for many good reasons. He will work within the confines of our legal system which is EXACTLY what i want him to do.

[mvd]

71. I think he can be somewhere between this and Bush

That would be the perfect place IMO.

[mkultra]

74. seems such a small difference

for the amount of gnashing that it brings.

[mvd]

79. I guess it depends

Those who want perfection will never be satisfied, but it could make a difference for a liberal like me.

[mkultra]

91. sure

while liberals like me think hes doing a great job.

[mvd]

92. And that's the difference of opinion in our party

Just as long as we agree on one thing: to defeat the Republicans. If we first reduce the Republicans to little influence, then we can best work out our own differences.

[mkultra]

95. you bet. We should be handling our differences in primaries

Not in generals.

[rhett o rick]

72. His fix was temporary. He needs to protect American jobs. He needs to establish tariffs. nm

[mkultra]

90. tarriffs could easily hurt us more.

Since we are the worlds leading manufacturer and the third largest exporter.

[rhett o rick]

93. do you have references for your data? nm

[mkultra]

94. huh? im surprised. I would assume this would be common knowledge.

manufacturing
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2009/10/13/data-on-the-largest-manufacturing-countries-in-2008/

exports
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

[mucifer]

48. Obama campaigned as a centrist in my opinion and he is governing that way.

As someone who volunteered on his campaign, I'm sad. But, I knew from what happened when Bill Clinton was elected there wouldn't be as much change as I wanted. It's too bad. I think we were hoping that he'd be more liberal. He's great at political theater and I'm hoping more changes will happen for the good of this country. But, I won't be surprised if we get more of the same.

I don't regret volunteering for him in Indiana. Gotta remember what president palin would be.

[zipplewrath]

60. Not THIS centrist

He campaigned to the left of Hillary on many issues, including Iraq. Now, Hillary is pretty centrist herself so that's only saying so much. But he campaigned against many of the policies of the Bush administration, and the GOP, only to accept far more of it than anyone would have admitted during the campaign.

[mkultra]

62. uh no, he campained on judgment

Their liberal creds where equal.

[zipplewrath]

63. He campaigned on on mandates

He advocated no mandates. We saw how long that lasted.

“I will remove one or two brigades a month, and get all of our combat troops out of Iraq within 16 months."

For those counting, we're at 16 months, this month.

[mkultra]

65. i really couldnt care less

i expect that campaign promises will be broken. If the circumstances for the break are acceptable, then i don't care. You are a fool if you truly expect all campaign goals to be met. NO one has ever done that and no one ever will.

He worked HCR reform based on his support in congress and he is making real progress sin Iraq. All acceptable and improvements over the status quo.

[zipplewrath]

67. Okay, but

You can't claim he campaigned on "judgement" when he actually campaigned on specific issues. And you can't claim he ran as a centrist when he made campaign promises (which he apparently didn't mean and can't remember) that were to the left of Hillary.

[mkultra]

68. but i can claim that he ran on judgement

as he himself said several times that there really was not that much difference between he and Hillary's policies and that the election was primarily about judgment. I do NOT claim he ran as a centrist but rather as a moderate democrat and the totality of his promises where not left of Hillary at all but virtually equal.


Of course he had specific issues, but you are comparing him to Hillary and claiming he was far left of her when he wasn't. She ran on mandates and he did not.

Campaign promises are really just goals. Everyone is supposed to know that, including you.

[zipplewrath]

70. He ran AGAINST mandates

He ran to the left of Hillary.

How that leaves him as a "moderate" I'm struggling to see.

[mkultra]

75. well, thats what i said

but that does not put him to the left of hillary. Hillary's "Universal" healthcare was considered more liberal and included mandates.

[zipplewrath]

76. Not sure how you get there

It was more liberal even though it contained mandates?

He gained alot of liberal support, in the primary. That's kinda strange for someone you want to portray as to the right of the DLC.

[mkultra]

77. not sure where your coming from here

Hillary's Healthcare plan was considered far more liberal than Obama's approach. I have no interest in portraying him as right of the DLC.

[zipplewrath]

81. You claim her's was more liberal

But he had more liberal support.

That's where I I see you trying to position him to the right of Hillary, i.e. the DLC.

[mkultra]

84. i think you are very confused.

Again, Their policies where virtually equal. She was more liberal on HCR while he was more liberal on WAR and diplomacy.

[zipplewrath]

85. Where is this conclusion drawn

Is it your assessment that her HCR was more liberal, or is that some other assessment you are referencing?

[mkultra]

86. It is my general take on the primary

Hillary proponents heralded "Universal healthcare" which included mandates and was widely considered "to liberal" while Obama favored a public option type system specifically rejecting mandates.

[zipplewrath]

87. I don't think you'll find much support for this assertion of yours

I'd be curious how many people have come to the same assessment as yours. He was the more liberal of the two candidates, and his position on mandates was driven by that attempt at positioning.

[mkultra]

88. well, we can ask. Ill start a poll

[Orsino]

49. He deserves our support for some of his work...

...and deserves to hear from us night and day on the rest.

[kjackson227]

64. +1