Robert Fisk: 'This strategy has been tried before – without success'

[Jackeens]

UK Independent, Thursday, 3 December 2009

"They shoot Russians," the young paratrooper told me. It was cold. We had come across his unit, the Soviet 105th Airborne Division, near Charikar, north of Kabul, and he was holding out a bandaged hand. Blood seeped through, staining the sleeve of his battledress. He was just a teenager with fair hair and blue eyes. Beside us a Soviet transport lorry, its rear section blown to pieces by a mine – yes, an "improvised explosive device", though we didn't call it that yet – lay upended in a ditch. In pain, the young man raised his hand to the mountain-tops where a Soviet helicopter was circling. Could I ever have imagined that Messers Bush and Blair would have landed us in the same sepulchre of armies almost three decades later? Or that a young black American president would do exactly what the Russians did all those years ago?

Within weeks, we would see the Soviet Army securing Kabul and the largest cities of Afghanistan, abandoning the vast areas of mountain and desert to the "terrorists", insisting that they could support a secular, uncorrupt government in the capital and give security to the people. By the spring of 1980, I was watching the Soviet military stage a "surge". Sound familiar? The Russians announced new training for the Afghan army. Sound familiar? Only 60 per cent of the force was following orders at the time. Yes, it does sound familiar.

Victor Sebestyen, who has researched a book about the fall of the Soviet empire, has written at length of those frozen days after the Russian army stormed into Afghanistan just after Christmas of 1979. He quotes General Sergei Akhromeyev, commander of the Soviet armed forces, addressing the Soviet Politburo in 1986. "There is no piece of land in Afghanistan that has not been occupied by one of our soldiers at some time or another. Nevertheless much of the territory stays in the hands of the terrorists. We control the provincial centres, but we cannot maintain political control over the territory we seize."

More: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-this-strategy-has-been-tried-before-ndash-without-success-1833133.html

[IndianaGreen]

1. Fisk has been in Pakistan several times--he was there when the US invaded in 2001

and he was the first to report the bombing of NGO's food storage facility in Kabul, Al-Jazzera Kabul desk, and the destruction of several villages in which the only dead were old men, women, and children.

BTW, his dispatches from Afghanistan in the early days of the war were posted in DU.

[Jackeens]

2. And he's lived in Beirut for 30 years, so he knows the 'region' better than most.

I don't always agree with him, but I have endless respect for him. I've attended a few of his lectures in Ireland (he's a regular visitor) and I'm always struck by his passion and knowledge, I doubt there are many who understand the history and politics of the region better than him.

[grantcart]

3. The most obvious difference of course is that a substantial part of the

anti Soviet insurgency consisted of the Northern Alliance and its allies which now constitute the Afghan government.

[Cha]

4. Interesting.

Of course, the history is of one of failure. Something makes Pres Obama think we can do it..wrap it up in 2011.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Only a person with a Messianic complex would think he can win in Afghanistan

[Cha]

9. What an idtiotic response ..I don't listen to you on anything bc

of this kind shite.

[Baltoman991]

10. Just another one

of your posts spewing right wing meme. Tell me, does it make you proud to be on a Democratic board spewing right wing bullshit? Obama never claimed to be the Messiah, he never claimed to be God, he never claimed to be perfect. You know that but that doesn't stop you from bringing Hannity like comments to this board now does it? Pathetic.

[IndianaGreen]

15. The poster I responded to thinks that Obama do in 2-years what no one has been able to do

Could I ever have imagined that Messers Bush and Blair would have landed us in the same sepulchre of armies almost three decades later? Or that a young black American president would do exactly what the Russians did all those years ago?

Within weeks, we would see the Soviet Army securing Kabul and the largest cities of Afghanistan, abandoning the vast areas of mountain and desert to the "terrorists", insisting that they could support a secular, uncorrupt government in the capital and give security to the people. By the spring of 1980, I was watching the Soviet military stage a "surge". Sound familiar? The Russians announced new training for the Afghan army. Sound familiar? Only 60 per cent of the force was following orders at the time. Yes, it does sound familiar.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-this-strategy-has-been-tried-before-ndash-without-success-1833133.html

[Zodiak]

13. That is out of bounds, IndianaGreen

Way out of bounds.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Afghanistan is not called the graveyard of empires for nothing

What do Afghans have to say about the surge, other than the Karzai regime?:

GABRIELA CAMPOS: There has recently been a lot of debate on a troop surge in Afghanistan, and yet, Obama still needs to make a decision. In your opinion, will more troops make a difference? What will be the effects if more troops are sent?

MARIAM NAWABI: We really have to look at the underlying causes of instability in Afghanistan. A lot of it is due to a continued cycle of poverty. If you look at U.S. foreign assistance, far too little is being spent on development. Sending more troops is costly. There have been some figures quoted that it takes $250,000 a year to maintain one troop in Afghanistan. Now, if we are training more Afghan soldiers that cost comes down considerably. So there definitely needs to be more training of Afghans.

More troops may actually cause more conflict. If Afghan people see more tanks and individuals in uniform, but they aren't seeing tangible differences in their lives, they may start questioning U.S. presence. There may be areas in the south where there is a need for more troops, due to the cross-border. But to send a large contingent of troops in the current situation, where there is a need for more development assistance, is not the right strategy at this time.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6555

A lot of people are going to die on account of this misguided war!

[Zodiak]

17. Agreed, but Messiah complex?

I am afraid that such hyperbole detracts from the message rather than enhances it.

[IndianaGreen]

18. consider to whom I was replying to, and the context of the OP

[Zodiak]

19. Perhaps that is the disconnect for me

The person to whom I am replying does not determine my level of decorum. In fact, if they have that much of an effect on my behavior, I have ceded power to them. That is my attitude, at least.

For the record, the person to whom you are replying is on my ignore list, so I can only imagine.

But my argument still stands, and I stand by it respectfully without malice. I do not see the reason for that level of attack on Obama as a proxy for the context of the OP, or one's attitude towards another poster's repeated snarkiness (they would not be on my ignore list for any other reason).

I know you take a lot of flak and may feel assaulted from all sides. I am not blind as to how people try to bait you, but if you rise to that, then you are playing into their hands as I have seen so many good liberals on this board do before they flame out.

[firedupdem]

14. how tea baggerish of you. n/t

[HughMoran]

5. The only good thing this time is that not one person thinks it will succeed

I certainly don't. Does anybody?

If this were somehow to succeed, it would be a miracle.

[pscot]

6. You might as well go outside

and bark at the full moon. Obama is going to have to learn the lesson all over again. It's the classic definition of insanity: doing the same old thing and expecting a different result.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Obama will learn the lesson, but our troops will pay the ultimate prize

In Moscow almost a quarter of a century later, I went to meet the former Russian occupiers of Afghanistan. Some were now addicted to drugs, others suffered from what we call stress disorder.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-this-strategy-has-been-tried-before-ndash-without-success-1833133.html

[high density]

11. That's a great argument for late 2001

Let's go back in time and not go into Afghanistan.

Oh wait, we can't do that. Darn.

[izquierdista]

12. 'young black American President'

Recalling what Wanda Sykes had to say, shouldn't we start calling him 'mulatto'?