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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:20 AM
Original message
A Few Words of Clarifcation
My post last night was apparently taken by many as being aimed at those who oppose Obama’s decision to send more troops into Afghanistan. It was not.

I have been opposed to our presence in Afghanistan from the beginning, and disagree with the president’s decision.

That being said, I take responsibility for being misunderstood. As I have often stated, misinterpretation is most often the fault of the writer, not the reader. I wrote what I did in a blind rage at what I had been reading here yesterday afternoon and again last night. As a result, I was unclear in my intent – that is a reason, but certainly not an excuse. I should have been more precise in my words and my meaning.

I apologize to those who, mistaking my intent, thought I was insulting their anti-war stance, or their right to disagree with Obama’s position.

However, I owe no apology to those my piece was aimed at: those here who consistently use their every disagreement with Obama as an opportunity to demean and belittle a president who doesn’t conform, one hundred percent, to their idea of what should be done by a true Democrat, a true liberal, a true progressive, a true leader, as though they alone possess the political yardstick by which such things are to be measured.

Criticism of Obama’s policies, decisions, appointments, procedures, etc., should not be merely tolerated, but encouraged. I have never wavered from that stance. However, I fail to see name-calling and personal insults as criticism – because it is what it is: name-calling and personal insults. I have seen some defend such statements as merely being “constructive criticism” – but unless they believe they can insult Obama into seeing things their way, there is nothing constructive about it.

On the contrary – it is, IMHO, destructive.

The words and phrases I placed in italics in my OP – warmonger, sell-out, etc. were taken from postings that appeared on DU yesterday. Mindful of the rules against “calling out” specific DUers, I used their words as identifiers – stupidly assuming that everyone who read my post would recognize who I was aiming my vitriol at. I was sadly mistaken in that assumption.

Of late I have chosen to not open numerous DU threads, those I can immediately recognize by their titles and/or authors as yet another attack on our president or our party couched as “constructive criticism”, but that are in reality an invitation – nay, an encouragement – to whine and complain, and to see every Obama decision as being reflective of a man and a party whose every move is to be viewed with suspicion.

What set me off yesterday was reading threads about topics totally unrelated to Afghanistan and/or Obama, where certain parties weighed-in anyway with comments like, “Well, now that we know the president is a warmonger …,” anxious to get their point across whether it was completely off-topic or not.

DemocraticUnderground has been, for myself and many others, a refuge from the right-wing talking points we are bombarded with daily by that liberal media we keep hearing about. It is demoralizing to come here – once a place of sanctuary where people could debate, discuss and ultimately choose to agree or disagree – and see those same talking points trotted out and proffered as facts being deliberately ignored by KoolAid-drinking Obamabots, too imbued with idol-worship to know what’s really going on here, man.

As for statements about our party being the same as their party, or Obama being the same as Bush, I personally find that offensive beyond words on a site devoted to supporting Democratic ideals. And I cannot imagine anyone of good intent seeking to persuade anyone here to join in such thinking. Having survived eight years of BushCo, we have seen the differences between the parties and their respective agendas in no uncertain terms – and the impact on our nation as a consequence.

Our party may be, at any given time and dependent on its current representatives, merely the "lesser of two evils". But given the alternative, I'll stand behind that lesser evil every time.

Again I apologize to those DUers who – through my fault, not theirs – misread my motives or my intent.

I would also like to thank the many DUers who took the time to send PMs expressing their encouragement and support. I appreciate their thoughtfulness beyond measure.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. I appreciate you coming back
with this clarification, Nance, because the point you're making is invaluble, imv.

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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. A few words?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Well, okay ...
... a wholebunchalotawords.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Rec'd...you rock! n/t
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Sometimes there are just days like these..K&R
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Eh?
I don't care what they say about you, Nance, you're all right, er left.

I'm glad i don't have a following. I'd be pissing off everybody then, what with all my minor mistakes.

Don't let 'em slow ya down, girl. You're a treasure here.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. Tomorrow I'll probably start a thread about the lighting of the WH Christmas tree...
.... and some will take that thread as a direct attack against those who oppose the war.

Dont worry about it. ;)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Brawaa
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks, Clio the Leo ...
I believe I was right in what I said, but I was definitely wrong in the way I said it.

We always warn each other not to post while intoxicated - I'll add a new admonition: NPWPOBWYCMC (Never Post While Pissed Off Beyond Words You Can Meaningfully Convey).
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. That's been a hard one to avoid
around here but I have pulled back several times.

I just write it all out and then know.."I can't do that!"
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Well I did some.......
.... "NPAWTMLGGV"

"Never post after watching too many Lady Gaga videos."

She has that effect on me ......... only I dont get mean, I get silly .... and really really really weird.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
34. She's art.
Gaga is a tad like a new Warhol for the under 30 set, who have been exposed to a wall of product, with even the "rebels" being, well, production rebels. Moody teen boy, repressed teen girl, etc.

She's product too, but knows that she's product, and intentionally *uses* the paradigm to turn product into art forms.

I guess you could say I'm a fan.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
47. She's candy coated girl-pop fabulousness.....
.... and I say we run her for President in 2016. After two terms of the poor Obama's having to recyle the Christmas ornaments due to the economy, we'll be ready for ... ya know ... someone in a rhinestone encrusted bra.

And we could AT LEAST be certain that DADT and DOMA would definately come to an end (if it hadn't already lol.)

Have you seen this?
http://www.amazon.com/Fame-Monster-Lady-Gaga/dp/B002M27QQK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259850730&sr=8-7

.... a deluxe edition of her new album, containing 3D glasses, paperdolls and a lock of her "hair." funny funny
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
108. She'll only be 30, then.
Gotta be 35.

:evilgrin:
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. What, you don't think global warming is a real problem?
Wasting all that electricity on frivolous lights? He's murdering the planet, and you're treating it as a mere detail?

No True Progressive* would agree.


:evilgrin:


*If you don't know what a "True Scotsman" is, google it.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
49. Last night at church.....
..... I didn't miss one BIT of political debate by NOT being home watching MSNBC as I usually do.

The man who lead the opening prayer said, "God, please help our leaders to focus on what they need to be focusing on. We've got people out of work and, while we recognize that global warming is a real thing, we know there's nothing we can do about it." ...... lol, I wanted to tell the gentleman later that they have email at the White House and he didn't go through God to get a message to the President lol.

And THAT was followed by a different man who taught the class doing a 10 min soliloquy on The Family and C-Street, going as far as pointing out that our Rep. is a member (which he is and I didn't disagree with what he was saying, but church wasn't the place for EITHER man to bring up politics.)

Oh well, at least we were "fair and balanced." lol
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. Nah, you'll get attacked because you used the word "Christmas" here
and not the bland generic "Holiday" which will offend no one. Merry Christmas Clio!!
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. Then I'm really going to be in trouble for saying.....
.... "church" as I just did lol

Merry Christmas to you too!
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Merry Christmas right back atcha!!
If anyone is offended by that term, can I offer a suggestion this holiday season? Go f**k yourself!!
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
73. LOL!
You're quoting Cheney, ya know ... :hi:

:hide:
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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
83. And a Happy
ChrismaHannukKwaanzaYulStice to you!

:party:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. not only that, she'll be promoting "mindless consumerism" AND religion!!11!
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. and they'll unrec it, because christmas and religion is wrong
:P
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Sky Pixie! Nazi Pope!
Saying these things makes a person terribly big and clever, dontcha know?
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Or "Nazi Pixie". It has a better ring to it.
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. So as not to get into trouble perhaps it's better to say "Happy Festivus"!!
May your aluminum pole be shiny, your list of grievances be a long one and may you be able to win all your "Feats of Strength" skirmishes!! Anyone offended by the word "Christmas"? Just say Happy Festivus for the restofus!!
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. LOL
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
:hug:
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. The Philosophy of my life....
"Our party may be, at any given time and dependent on its current representatives, merely the "lesser of two evils". But given the alternative, I'll stand behind that lesser evil every time."

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. I took it to apply broadly to people who fail to see how things are in real life.
Stuff like that.

IMHO, there was no reason to lock it and I was surprised that your's was locked while so many divisive epithet-filled posts went unaffected.

Thanks, and I'm glad your OP is still there as your Journal.

:toast:
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Skinner himself said 'pony' comments would be seen as personal attacks
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:00 AM by Hissyspit
And deleted or locked. That's why it was locked. If you would like to see his exact words, I can go search for the original post.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Thanks, no need to search, it's not a term I'm likely to use.
That one's pretty tired, as are quite a few other terms widely in use here.

:P
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yes, no ponies allowed.
Skinner also has these rules..

<snip>

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

I believe this rule is pretty self-explanatory. The vast majority of DU members seem to understand it implicitly, and naturally participate in a manner that complies with this rule without needing to be told to do so. But a few people have expressed confusion about what is permitted and what is not, in part because some of our members have been peddling the ridiculous and false assertion that criticism of Barack Obama is not permitted on Democratic Underground.

Nonetheless, if anyone is confused about what is permitted here, I'll spell it out as clearly as I can. It's pretty simple:


Any and all substantive criticism of Barack Obama and his policies is permitted. And by "any and all substantive criticism" we mean all of it -- no issue is off limits.

Expressions of dismay, disappointment or disagreement with Barack Obama or his policies are permitted.

But insults, name-calling, or other expressions of contempt toward Barack Obama or his supporters are not welcome.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x34789

And, I'm not saying you do it 'cause I know you don't.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
72. If pony get a lock, then IMO so should cheerleader
That last bolded line there is not enforced, JMO. I've seen it over and over.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
56. yes, clearing the way for the "cheerleader" comments
proof positive that this site is now devoted to the Obama bash.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Send an alert every time you see someone use "cheerleader" as an insult.
Sooner or later the use of that word will stop. It's all we can do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. No worries, my dear Nance...
I understood...

And I always will.

K&R

:hug:
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. I don't mind being called out
...because I noted your italics affectation.

I've been called out by hack writers before, including a local newspaper columnist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x168316

I do love your attempt at reputation damage control. This thread has promise. ;-)

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. See it as you want to ...
... make of it what you will.

It is of no consequence to who I am, how I think, and what I believe.

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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. It's a shame you're posting this
Because I thought your post yesterday was spot-on, and I think most of the criticism you received was disingenuous. It's crystal clear exactly what kinds of posters you're calling out, and it's not the ones who calmly say "I cannot in principle support an escalation in Afghanistan and I am deeply disappointed in and disagree strongly with President Obama." The shrieking harpies never can stand it when you hold the mirror up to them and demand they behold their ugliness in living color.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. The other was locked so
I'm glad she did write this so the point will be reinforced without the ponies this time.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
102. +1
This.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for this post
Surprised by the vitriol, I kept my thoughts to myself instead of posting them and walked away from the computer.

The president's decision means my nephew will go to Afghanistan (already have a nephew in Iraq). But I'll be damned if I'll hurl reich-wing hate speech toward our president. He gets too much of that from hate radio and hate TV, and I won't pour gasoline on that fire.

My family disagrees with his Afghanistan decision. But if elections were held tomorrow, we'd vote for Barack Obama again.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I wish the very best for
your nephews and thank them for their service.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
71. Thank you, Cha
I'll see one of them at Christmas and will pass along your message.

:hug:
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. I appreciate the clarification Nance...
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:51 AM by Bjorn Against
You do have to realize however that those of us who have been out there in the streets protesting these wars for years are seriously pissed off at Obama right now.

Tonight I marched with a couple hundred other anti-war protesters and we took over downtown Minneapolis. We marched through the city during rush hour without a permit, there were police everywhere, they were on bikes, they were on horseback, and they had several cars and paddy wagons trailing us the entire time. You can see the local news report here. I risked arrest tonight because I am unwilling to accept this escalation of the war, and I hope more people get out in the streets and shut down business as usual until this war comes to an end.

My very first protest after converting to a progressive took place in October of 2001, it was a time in which Bush had a 90% approval rating in large part because many Democrats were cheering him on during this time. Those of us who stood up against Bush were accused of being traitors to our country, we were accused of supporting terrorists, we were accused of some vile things and many of those accusations came from Democrats. When those Democrats realized that they were wrong and started to turn against Bush I forgave them for the way they acted in the past because I was glad to see them come around. Today however I am saddened, I am saddened to see so many Democrats go back to supporting this war and yelling at people like me because I am not doing enough to support our President in a time of war. It is my position that we should never support any President who sends more troops to die in an unjustified war, it doesn't matter if it is a Republican President or a Democratic President if they don't work to bring about peace then they are not going to get my support.

There have been many criticisms of Obama in recent days and certainly some of those criticisms are more fair than others, but quite frankly I don't see any reason why I should be concerned about the harsh words that are directed in Obama's direction because many of us are furious at what is happening right now and we have good reason to be angry. We have fought to end this war for years now, and then the candidate that we voted for goes and escalates it. Yes it is true that Obama said he was going to escalate the war during his campaign but we cringed every time he spoke those words. We were stuck choosing between him and McCain, we did not have a peace candidate that was on enough ballots to get elected so we voted for someone who we had major disagreements with. Now we are upset not just because we were stuck voting for a person who supported escalating a war we had fought so hard against, but we are also pissed that people accuse us of being selfish for wanting to end this war when we risked arrest and had our friends and family look down on us for taking a stand on such a controversial issue. Activism is not about selfishness, all activists go through serious struggles and there is nothing that is more frustrating to listen to than people telling us that we are like little kids whining for a pony.

I appreciate your clarification and I gained back a lot of the respect for you that was lost with yesterdays post. I would hope however that in a future post you will look beyond Obama and take a moment to recognize the people who have stood up for what they believe in no matter how unpopular it was. You have a powerful voice Nance, and you can choose to either use that voice to divide progressives or you can use that voice to bring people together to stand up for what is right. I hope to see you address the anti-war movement in a positive way in a future post of yours.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
109. Thanks so much for your articulate ...
... and obviously well thought out response.

I can totally understand why you - and others - are pissed-off at Obama over this latest announcement. You have every right to be.

I have no problem with people speaking out against such things as war.

What I DO have a problem with is the extrapolation, the deliberate misleading of one thing into another: e.g. "Obama commits more troops in Afghanistan = Obama is gleeful at the prospect of increased deaths among Afghanis and US troops," or, "Obama is posturing for political gain," etc., giving no quarter to the idea that bad decisions are sometimes made by good people, or are born of good - albeit misguided - intentions.

I have come to know you, Bjorn Against, by what you do and what you say.

My take is that you are young and idealistic - you are sometimes politically naive, and have little appreciation for the strength of the walls you seek to breach, or the enemy you are determined to defeat.

You often blindly refuse to see the obstacles ahead, and are mesmerized by the vision of what could be in a world devoid of obstacles.

You are dour and serious beyond your years, and yet somehow overly-optimistic about how easily the impossible can be achieved.

All of the above qualify you as one of those people who are going to change the world for the better. And you will.

The "powerful voice" is not mine, but yours.

It's a responsibility - but you're up to the task.

Godspeed.

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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. Thanks for the kind words Nance...
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 01:15 AM by Bjorn Against
I used to be extremely cynical, but I have seen enough in my life that I have become less cynical and have started to gain confidence that we can tear down the walls. Does this make me naive? I don't know, maybe it does. I probably have a greater realization of how strong the walls that hold us back are than you think I do, once you have faced down riot police you know the people you are speaking out against are far more powerful than they appear on television. I still think they can be defeated though, because I believe that when ordinary citizens stand up and refuse to accept the status quo they can take this country back. The fact is there are more of us than there are of them, and if everyone can stand together and resist injustice then we can win. Maybe that belief makes me naive, but we will never know if I am being naive or realistic until people stand up and fight for what is right.

I actually don't criticize Obama that often, I like to focus on issues rather than personalities because I honestly think the focus on personalities is one of the things that is really dragging this country down. At one time I did focus too much on personalities, as you know I used to post here under the name MNAgainstBush and while Bush was in office I focused much of my attacks on him rather than what he was doing. I know we can both agree that Bush was a particularly vile person who deserved every nasty word sent in his direction, but the fact is that the problems were a lot larger than just Bush. There are enormous systematic problems in this country and Bush is only one person among many that are responsible for the mess of the last eight years. Obama is certainly a far better person than Bush could ever dream of being, but he is working within the same system that Bush was working in. It is a system that has been majorly corrupted and if we want change in this country we need to confront that system. I think this is the reason that I have felt so turned off by Obama loyalists lately, it is because there seems to be a belief that Obama is going to bring us change. My belief is that if we want change we need to be the people who bring that change, that requires us to stand up to the powerful interests.

It is too easy to focus on the personalities, it feels nice to think that the person we voted for is going to change things and it frees us from our responsibilities to put ourselves on the line and take a stand. I don't think change will be won at the ballot box however, there is too much money corrupting the system and the wealthy interests would pour enormous resources into destroying anyone who would make the radical changes that need to be made to our system if they were voted into office. I don't think Obama offers much in the way of change, but I don't think anyone who wanted real change could ever win a major party nomination. It is extremely easy for the powerful interests to destroy a single person, but it is not so easy for them to destroy a movement. We need to build a movement in order to bring about change in this country and that movement will not be led by a President, it will be led by the grassroots.

I believe that the loyalists are wrong but I also think the people working to defeat Obama are wrong. I think people have good reason to be angry with Obama, but the focus really needs to be on the issues rather than the person. This is ultimately not about Obama, this is about the war and it is a war that we need to resist.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. That response is unusually thoughtful in a forum that's become knee-jerk.
Be proud of what you've written here. It resonates.

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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
24. Exasperating, ain't it?!
Compared to you I'm a total noobie on this site, but even I got what you were talking about.

We do seem to have increased numbers of those who will criticize for the sake of doing so, along with some who look for any excuse to be offended. And when did we acquire so many of those whose task is to "should" on everyone else? Yuck. Anyway, while they're busily getting themselves put on ignore, your posts continue to be both sought and welcomed.


---
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
26. clarification (sp)
well measured response.


blessings to you, dear NG...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
27. I wish this one wasn't necessary.
I got it the other night, and I apologize to YOU for the lack of humor and insight around here sometimes. Jesus.
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. +2²
(Kinda tired of the krazy)

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Nice with the squared thingy there....
And I'm tired of the crazy, too....
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I honestly don't get it. When did the visitors gain control of the asylum? nt
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. LOL!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
58. post primary
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
35. K&R, Nance. Keep up the good fight. Well said. nt
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
36. The trouble with choosing the lesser of two evils, as we have done for 30 years now
is that the bar for keeping one's congressional seat has now been set so low that change is no longer possible in the face of corporate aggression.

At some point we need to stop accepting the slide and demand a change in direction. And from where we are now, fully 97% of Congress needs to be changed.

We need to stop doing the same things, while expecting different results.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
37. Happy to rec this
Since I was one of those who misunderstood your original post and unreced it as a result. It's the least I can do (a quantity I specialise in).
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R last time K&R again n/t
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
40. Nance, I've heard it somewhere that once one resorts to name calling and insults
...then he/she has lost the argument itself. You're a treasure Nance. Keep fighting the good fight and remember "Illegitimi non carborundum"
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
41. FWIW, I understood you perfectly
and I always look forward to your take on the situation at hand. Any other night it probably wouldn't have been a big deal, but Tuesday DU wasn't really in a thinking mood. It's difficult to be rational when people's fists are in your face.

Peace, Nance.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
42. Another K&R! nt
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
43. Careful. Someone at DU may get your thread tombstoned for being
a reply to material posted by others in another forum. Oh wait. That is only done when the thread does not support Obama and his supporters. Never mind.

:crazy:

We have made our presidential bed and now we have to sleep with it. Enjoy your war.
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. Always appreciate your posts, Nance.
There's so much fear in people about what our future holds that sometimes I think the ability to judge the administration without ad hominem attacks has gone by the wayside. Understandable, but regrettable.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
45. You should have left it alone, this does not help at all. n/t
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. +1 Again, what a waste of someone's high intelligence. eom
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yup, leave it alone. The damage is done.
Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes... well, he eats you. Take your licks and move on. This is rubbing salt in an open wound.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. +2
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Considering the source..I'm saying it helps even more than
I originally thought.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. How surprising. n/t
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #69
86. +1
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
94. LOL
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
52. Frankly, there wasn't a darned thing wrong with the first post so far as I could see.
I'm not sure how anybody could have read it and been confused as to what you were getting at, and had it been aimed at me, I don't really see anything to particularly take offense at. Anyway, I surely hope you get that pony some day...although as a veteran of many a stable cleaning, I would recommend exercising caution in just what you wish for. Peace.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. I question the sincerity of some of these posters.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
61. I understood your stance by simply reading the original carefully.
again, you make good points in this post.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
65. Thank you.
You are a DU treasure. :hug:
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Robyn66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. I think your post was spot on!
I am very frustrated at times at some of the people on here.
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
70. To me, the name-callers are not as destructive as the doom-sayers
I'm not talking about the ones who issue warnings in the form of, "Unless x happens we're all doomed". I'm speaking of those who claim, "We're all doomed no matter what". This despair inspires nobody to action. Indeed, it strengthens the status quo by giving the powers that be an air of omnipotence, which no mortal posesses.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
75. You made yourself very, quite sadly clear
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 06:32 PM by Prism
No amount of clarification can hide the fact you invoked the almighty pony to blithely address very real issues that real people are actually coping with in America. If you actually engaged in DU rather than alighting upon it once in awhile as a personal soapbox, you would have stopped about three sentences into that screed and realized you were about to make very angry people who are suffering from this administration's actions or inaction and who would not be in the slightest bit amused by your blithe, irresponsible dismissal of their concerns and feelings.

I understand the problem. Living in Canada, you are far removed from the problem of actually living with American government policy. This is all of somewhat academic interest to you. It's your hobby. Because of that, you can invoke ponyism to criticize and dismiss the concerns of people like the LGBT community. This isn't the first time you've condescendingly referred to LGBT issues from a place of patronizing privilege. I suspect it will not be the last.

You did not survive eight years of Bush. We did. You enjoy your equality and health-care. We do not. It is not given you to tell us what the right amount of outrage is or whether or not our expression of it is acceptable. You are not a rhetorical Goldilocks with the magical ability to explain to us, the citizens who live with policies you merely read about, which reactions are "just right" according to a yardstick you would wield with impunity while denying it to others.

You may support whomever you like or claim to oppose whatever you like. Your opinions will have very little bearing on your sanctuary north of the border. However, we do have to live with the consequences of American government in ways you no longer need bear. It is not for you to pontificate to us that we must deal with it in such a way you find pleasing or tolerable.

To announce such under the guise of "just right" you place yourself not only removed from the drudgery of living with American affairs, you offend those of us who will continue living with them until something in this system changes.

You've got yours in ways millions of Americans will not. Please do not come down from the North to endlessly pick apart the ways we, who do not have what you have, pursue what we are entitled to under the Constitution.

Someone said it best. "Emotional imperialism". That's not a terribly liberal impulse. It's an ugly one.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Excellent post. nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. This. n/t
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. And by the same criteria,
your use of the imperial "we" is way off-base. You do not speak for me, and it is up to me to determine whether any poster on DU represents my views, or not.

If you have a problem with someone's posts, by all means disagree and debate to your heart's content, but do not presume to speak for me, or those who happen to agree with a particular OP.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. We = people living in America
The people who must suffer the policies of our government.

I presume not to speak for anyone but myself. My opinions are my own. But I won't let slide a use of "we" used in context of coping with government policy when that person is not in fact living under that government. It is an implied dishonesty. It would be like saying "Well, we survived the Sri Lankan civil war." No. "We" did not. They did.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Wow, so by your post I take it Americans who currently reside outside the...
the U.S. are to STFU? Holy shit! I have only read the 'real Amurikan' attitude on rabid right wing sites prior to your post. Oh, and seeing as I am a mere Canadian, a Canadian who's soldiers are IN Afghanistan dying side by side with U.S. troops I am sure my opinion is worthy of a STFU x 2 in your estimation.

Despicable, no, actually beyond despicable, imo.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Oh please
If someone in another country with full equality dares to lecture me on my tone or sense of outrage at the various policies of government towards LGBT equality in this country, I'll tell them precisely where to stick it. That takes monumental (and monumentally self-absorbed) shamelessness and privilege to explain to people who do not enjoy the same rights precisely how they should react to their denial.

That ought to be simple human decency and self-awareness. Only vast ego could impel anyone to explain why those without equality should calm down and discuss it in soothing tones more pleasing to their privileged selves.

People used to understand that. Well, some people. Some people never got that, and continue not to get it, and seem utterly unable to grasp it no matter how many times it's explained to them that their attitudes are deeply offensive and by no means what should be expected of a so-called ally to our cause.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Again, only Americans who LIVE in the U.S. are allowed to espouse their perspective on issues...
including GLBT policies? How about Americans currently residing in a country that has even LESS equality for GLBTs than the U.S. are they, too, supposed to STFU or are they excluded from your 'list' of who has the right to opine? Or is only those Americans, regardless of where they reside but completely agree with your opinion on 'American' issues, who are given your okay to speak out?

Nothing you posted in your response makes your original post less despicable, imo.

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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. Here's a measure for you
If you haven't lived in America for nearly 30 years and enjoy full equality, don't bother lecturing me on my tone in reaction to the poor LGBT policies of any administration. The reaction will not be kind. And believe you me, if you find my OP despicable, you'd probably have found the unedited version a crime against humanity. Because what I really want to say about this privileged patronization would probably warrant an immediate TSing.

And if you can't figure out what's wrong with that, I think a long night spent reading about the assumptions of the privileged and the burdens they place on the unequal in society would not go awry.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Ummm, lecturing....hmmm, might be time to try looking in a mirror yourself...
umbrage at tone, hmmmm, it might be worthwhile for you to read your own posts and see if you find any lecturing or tone problems in them. I suspect you will neither look in a mirror nor re-read your own posts though because it seems to be an anathema to your nature of debate.

One thing we do have in common as regards edited versions versus unedited versions of posts, my unedited response to your patronizing, superior attitude would have also likely warrented my being TSed.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. You do not
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 08:10 PM by billh58
speak for We = America anymore than you or I can speak for the people of Sri Lanka. You can not speak for all Democrats, DU members, Liberals, "Progressives," or any other group of which you are neither the leader, nor the spokesperson. You are entitled to your own opinions, but you not entitled to assume mine.

Nance Greggs has a better handle on the pulse of American politics, and specifically the American Liberal Democratic movement than most people I know. I am not asking you to let anything "slide," but please do not presume to speak for anyone but yourself.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. I'm guessing
This has now become a matter of reading comprehension, and rather than attempt a long and repetitive corrective back and forth, I'll simply say I disagree with your characterization of what I said.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. No, you don't
get off that easy: I understood you perfectly. You attacked the writer of an OP for not being not being an American citizen, and your used the term "we" in your attack to imply that ALL Americans, or Democrats, or Liberals were in agreement with you. That was both presumptuous, and extremely arrogant of you.

One last time, and then you can get back to your xenophobic ranting: YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!

Peace...;-)
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. She is an American citizen.
She just doesn't choose to live here. She moved away 30 years ago.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. I assumed that
Nance was an expat, but I would value her opinions and thoughts no matter what nationality she is. Thanks for the info... :toast:
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Prism also knows that she is an American citizen.
He wasn't speaking to her as a citizen of another country. I'm not sure where you got that. I just wanted to clarify. Myself, my opinions align with Prism's, I'm just not as eloquent.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. And my point from the
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 10:24 PM by billh58
beginning is that it makes absolutely no difference if Nance is an American citizen, or a Canadian citizen, or a citizen of Mars, or where she resides -- she is among the more well-informed, and informative, of the posters on DU. Her writing style is a pleasure to read, and her candor is refreshing to those with an open mind.

Ad hominem attacks against a poster for ANY reason do not further the debate about legitimate issues. Claiming to speak for ALL Americans, or ALL Democrats, or ALL of any demographic is disingenuous, and a sorry attempt to sway an argument by claiming the exaggerated support of strawmen.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #95
115. Bravo! Big thumbs up to your posts in this thread
Beautifully said.
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neshanic still Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #75
96. The best response of this whole thread. Thank you.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. First off ...
... there was nothing in this OP, or the previous one, that spoke to LGBT issues. Not.One.Word.

I have always been outspoken in my support of total and unqualified equality for all citizens, and specifically equal rights for same-sex couples in terms of marriage, adoption, etc.

I am an American citizen living out-of-country - along with millions (yes, millions) of US citizens who do so. My move to Canada had to do with personal reasons (a career opportunity for my then-husband), and had nothing to do with politics.

I am currently married to a fellow American who also (damn him to hell!) resides in Canada.

I participate on this website, along with others, because I AM a US citizen and, as such, I am concerned with my country's direction, and I care about my fellow citizens. One does not simply shed their Americanism, nor their concern, when they take up residence elsewhere.

My entire family - sisters, nieces and nephews, cousins and aunts and uncles, and MY OWN SON live State-side and, as such, are impacted by domestic policies which you seem to think I only view from afar, without appreciating their consequences on individual lives.

I keep myself informed and weigh-in on issues that affect all Americans - I also vote, contribute financially to political campaigns, etc. - things that, sad to say, too many Americans who live in-country can't be bothered to do.

My citizenship is not "a hobby".

Perhaps the problem you have in understanding where I am coming from is simply a matter that you, personally, would abandon your country and fellow citizens if you moved elsewhere - to a place where you had yours, a place where you would quickly adopt the attitude of fuck those back home who don't.

I am, proud to say, not like you.
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neshanic still Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #98
111. Reply..
"Perhaps the problem you have in understanding where I am coming from is simply a matter that you, personally, would abandon your country and fellow citizens if you moved elsewhere - to a place where you had yours, a place where you would quickly adopt the attitude of fuck those back home who don't."

Quite a reach on that one.

Again, personally why you are there is none of my business, but if you had a duplicate in the US, I would think more of that person's opinion on the struggles of the typical person in the US.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #75
104. Thank you
Excellent response.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #75
107. Sorry, you missed the whole point in both OPs.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
114. It would save a lot of time justifying raging to just not do it.
I don't think I've ever changed anyone's mind by raging at them although it probably felt real good at the time. But, that's about ME, ME, ME.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
80. Well said, Nance
I didn't misinterpret what you said, but I liked reading your clarification, and hopefully the folks the original post wasn't referring to will get that clarification.

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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
81. i thought it was funny, wickedly on spot and made a great point...
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
85. Your motives and intent were perfectly clear.
I understand why you are apologizing, but I'm not sure everyone who took umbrage deserves an apology. I love your writings and yesterdays was no exception. You said things that needed to be said and heard. This place is way out of control because of a segment of very loud posters who do nothing but name call, act rudely, and demonstrate a hatred of anything Obama says and does. I think someone with some clout needed to stand up and say something.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
88. Thanks Nance. The post that was vilest (to me) said he was using heroin money to pay off bankers...
... or words to that effect. There's nothing constructive in such over-the-top hatred.

I KnR'd your earlier essay because I certainly could see what you were talking about. I am KnR'ing this one as well. In my view, there's not much to "misunderstand" about either one.

:hug:

Hekate

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neshanic still Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
92. Could you expand on this part you wrote a bit further?
"However, I owe no apology to those my piece was aimed at: those here who consistently use their every disagreement with Obama as an opportunity to demean and belittle a president who doesn’t conform, one hundred percent, to their idea of what should be done by a true Democrat, a true liberal, a true progressive, a true leader, as though they alone possess the political yardstick by which such things are to be measured."
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #92
106. Yes, gladly ...
My vitriol was (as it invariably is) aimed at those who believe that their way is the ONLY way - that they are the self-appointed Decider Guys who have the last word on whose opinions are truly representative of the Democratic Party and whose are not.

They fail to understand or appreciate that our Party consists of people of vastly differing views, opinions, or core beliefs - and apply their own litmus test to every Democrat: i.e. if you do not completely accept (a), (b) and (c), you are not really one of us.

My point about using every disagreement with Obama as a launching pad for sowing discontent among the ranks is a simple one: While many of us disagree with his announcement of sending more troops to Afghanistan, said announcement does not necessarily equate to his being a sell-out in the pocket of corporations, a smooth-talking liar from the get-go, whose only agenda is being "popular" (and considering the unpopularity of this particular decision, I admit to being totally baffled by that take on things).

To hear some tell it here on DU, Obama's decision equated to his jumping up and down, bloodlust in his heart, relishing the idea of American troops dying in battle as a direct result of his position. I think not.

Simply put, Democrats are traditionally a "big tent" party - and that means people of varying degrees of liberalism, progressivism (whatever you want to call it) coming together to stand behind a variety of common goals.

What I've been reading here of late is a group of self-appointed arbiters, who have no hesitation in declaring who is or isn't "Democratic enough" - according to their test for determining such things.

It smacks of "You're either with us (as we see things) or against us."

I had a big problem with that statement as applied to all Americans - and I have an even bigger problem with it being applied to all Democrats.







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neshanic still Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Thank you for the response.
You write that you aimed your first writing to "those that believe that their way is the only way" and this group does not understand that "our Party consists of people of vastly differing views, opinions, or core beliefs".

First on the core belief item. What to you is a core belief for our party? Is gay rights a core belief? Is healthcare a core belief? Which beliefs are core and which are secondary?

I would suggest that these are not beliefs but basic human rights. I think personally that gay people should have equal rights. The same for healthcare. I think the right of being taken care of when ill should be a basic human right in this nation and all the world, not only does it show that we as a human race are attentive, it shows that we have truly become great. It's not negotiable. So when you say that people under the guise of "self appointers" are not understanding the basic tenets of the "big tent", it is you that are paradoxically causing divisions. In your belief system, you cannot deal with what you youself have not decided is a "core", "opinion" or incredibly, "view".

These people, these "decider guys" are we ever in the right group in the world of "core" "opinion" or view? No, because there will always be someone that thinks that things like gay rights, healthcare, or the war are list items only, and needing to be checked and rearranged in Outlook. Amazing as it was, there were whole threads on how people really saw bargaining power if there was a state opt out for healthcare because it would make the states that did opt out more favorable to election year gains. People on the altar of politics, let to languish. Let's hope that altar has an oxygen mask. But there some "decider guys" were, voicing their opinion.

Gay rights, another "decider guys" favorite here is always lively. But again, the "decider guys" always attentive, spoil a perfectly good five minute inauguration prayer by our pal Rick Warren. Those "decider guys" had the gall to tell the "big tent" that this guy was a sham, dangerous and would not reflect well on our President. I guess this was a "view", or maybe an opinion? You be the judge.

Now the war. Wow. The "decider guys" are out in full force. Their objective: pull the poles down in "big tent". So what's the breakdown there, Excel spread sheet wise? Views? Opinions? Maybe core? That one will take time.

"It smacks of "You're either with us (as we see things) or against us." Well if you think that things like gay rights, Healthcare or the wars are concerned are items that are used only as a prism to view President Obama and these issues are making him look all yucky, well that's your problem frankly. I do not use that prism.







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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
93. We Are All Buffalo Soldiers
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
99. You are a class act
:applause:
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
116. The intent of your OP was clear as a bell. Sorry you felt the need for "clarification"
although I'm sure that you realize that the main folks here needing "clarification" are the ones you railed about so truthfully in your original OP. lol It baffles me to believe that they honestly believe that they are fooling anyone.
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Balderdash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
117. I have loved reading your posts for years
but maybe a little history from before the primaries...
This place has been a mirror of Freeperville as far as tone
is concerned for quite some time.

I had wanted someone other than Obama for President and this
place was aweful if you supported someone else. You really can't
have discussion here anymore not without donning your flame
retardant underwear.

When we had the worse President ever running the country
Democrats did have a place to be that was welcoming and we
could count on each other but not now. We don't seem to be able
to discuss issues that may put the President in a bad light. We
aren't able to disagree with this administration without the
Freeper like name calling and bullying.

ANyway, love your posts, I just wish we could get back to
talking to each other.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
118. Kick for posterity and
clarity.
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