Vietnam vs Afghanistan comparisons are stupid because we are talking 58,000+ casualties vs like 900.

[phleshdef]

Those are the numbers last I heard, forgive me if they aren't 100% accurate to the number, but you get my point regardless.

Lets be clear, a soldier dying in the service of his country should never be marginalized in any way and I honor those who died in honorable service, regardless of whether it was a necessary war, an unnecessary war or serving some other function of service that had nothing to do with a war.

Having said that, I'm sick of people making these Vietnam comparisons. Vietnam has the historically negative stigma it has because a lot of Americans died for a bunch of nothing. Afghanistan on the other hand started off as a quest to apprehend those who planned 9/11. Agree or disagree with the reasons for Afghanistan, its a war that is NOTHING like Vietnam in terms of origin and its a war that doesn't even stand a chance of adding up to those kinds of casualties.

So lets set this strawman on fire right now and be done with it. Oppose the current Afghanistan plan because of the cost, because it puts more American lives in danger or for whatever valid reason you may have. But please get off of this Vietnam crap. Its a shame that the 900 (give or take) Americans that have died serving in combat in Afghanistan. Its a shame that we will likely experience some more casualties between now and the drawdown of the war. But thats still nowhere near the level of severity that Vietnam was, not by any stretch of the wild imagination.

[maxsolomon]

1. the cost and length are comparable, though

and the lack of clear achievable goals.

[phleshdef]

5. Length is irrelevant, cost is a different story though and thats a valid complaint with any war.

[spoony]

24. Length isn't irrelevent for soldiers going back for the fourth, fifth etc. time. nt

[valerief]

2. How can you not include Iraq in with Afghanistan? They were both

supposed to be fighting Taliban/al Qaeda. You know, that War on Terra, er, Terror.

[phleshdef]

4. Iraq is winding down and its a different war. Even if I did, there would still be no comparison.

[valerief]

11. It is the same war, the same supposed enemy. Sheesh! nt

[mkultra]

3. not attack was coordinated against us from vietnam

[Thothmes]

21. Then why did LBJ decide to make it a major war?

[mkultra]

34. because of the domino theory and the manifest destiny ideology

[noamnety]

6. Little known fact: Only American deaths matter. (nt)

[LittleBlue]

7. To bad we only count "our people" among the dead

I guess Afghans don't count.

[arcadian]

37. Those brown people don't count.

They are after all... brown.

[Hippo_Tron]

38. Do you think they count our people among their dead?

Don't get me wrong I think it is important to consider the cost of all human lives, not just American lives. But America isn't unique int he way we make these sorts of calculations.

[damntexdem]

8. The size isn't the issue -- the conditions are.

There is no widespread Afghan support for the Taliban nor Al Qaida, other than among Pashtuns on the border or in Pakistan -- this is no popular insurgency. The problem is that the Bushistas managed to get American efforts almost as disparaged among Afghans as are Taliban initiatives.

One area of commonality with Vietnam, however, is the possibility of an endless quagmire. An exit date must be adhered to, no matter what happens on the ground. But is there any way to ensure that an exit date IS adhered to?

The real question is whether the Afghan War was already lost by about 2004.

[phleshdef]

10. Yea, an endless quagmire I am against, but Vietnam was still a lot nastier than Afghanistan.

[phleshdef]

9. I didn't list Vietnamese casualties for the Vietnam number either.

Its still not a valid comparison either way. Horrible, horrible attempt at rebuttle.

[noamnety]

13. What are the estimated deaths because of our invasion?

Does the UN have an estimate of deaths from bombings, shootings, infrastructure and refugee issues?

We managed to kill one and a half MILLION Iraqis - BEFORE the invasion, thanks to Clinton with a little help from Bush at the end. I know Albright said it was "worth it."

I'd like to know the numbers in Afghanistan.

[valerief]

12. What about all the soldiers fighting the War on Terra in Iraq who were

air lifted to other countries so their deaths didn't count as war deaths? Probably the same with the War on Terra in Afghanistan, too. It's all the same war. They just cheat on the soldier death count, like they do with our unemployed count.

[phleshdef]

15. You should give some of that material to Glen Beck, he is running out of good conspiracies to push.

[valerief]

27. You should catch up on the facts. This is no secret. nt

[phleshdef]

28. Yea, I'll do that, right after I find the FEMA concentration camps where the death panels operate.

[valerief]

31. Okay, stay low information. Have a nice day. Thanks for your concern. nt

[onenote]

41. You're wrong. The story that airlifted fatalities aren't in the count has been debunked countless

times.

If you want information, its available. Go tohttp://icasualties.org/Iraq/Fatalities.aspx

and scroll through the list of fatalities. You'll see, under place of death, locations like Walter Reed, or Germany,
or Canada or San Antonio TX.

If you really think thousands of soldiers have died in US hospitals but not been included in the count, you should
be able to provide one example. Just one.

You won't because you cant.

[ClarkUSA]

14. All the simplistic mantras so favored by the 24/7 Obama Outrage Club are false rhetoric.

Obama = Bush
Afghanistan = Vietnam
Obama = Nixon
Obama = Corporate Dem
Obama = Warmonger
Obama supporters = worshippers of evil god

etc.

[rug]

16. Those numbers are about to go up.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

17. You forget that many who would have died --

back in the Vietnam days are now living due to medical improvements -- missing multiple arms, legs, with massive brain damage or in a permanent vegetative state.

The kill rates cannot really be compared.

[Arctic Dave]

18. Correct.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2111432/

"Iraq 2004 Looks Like Vietnam 1966
Adjusting body counts for medical and military changes."

Another unreported fact are the contractor deaths. Something we use far more now then in Vietnam.

[LisaM]

19. Thanks - I was going to mention that

Not to mention, we must have sent thousands times more troops to Vietnam.

[phleshdef]

22. What you just said actually strengthens my case that comparing the 2 is stupid.

[spoony]

25. Shoot, didn't see your post, sorry!

GMTA

[BeyondGeography]

26. We killed millions of Vietnamese civilians, too, remember

Perhaps that should also count for something in the completely wrongheaded attempts to compare these wars.

[Zomby Woof]

39. Sure they can be compared

There were over 550,000 American troops sent to Vietnam.

Even with the coming troop escalation, we're talking 130,000 troops being committed to Afghanistan, give or take a few thousand.

The casualty rate for Vietnam was roughly 10.5% and for Afghanistan, 1%. While it is true medical advances are a factor in saving lives, they would not reduce Vietnam's casualty rate to 1%. Or in other words, if Vietnam were being waged today with the same number of troops as then, but given the Afghan casualty rate, the number of dead would be 5,500 instead of 58,000. Medical advances would not save up to 52,500 lives out of the old total of 58,000. The difference is in how the wars are being waged, tactically and so forth. I would grant that medical advances would save a substantial number of lives, but not 52,500 out of 58,000.

The OP, like myself, is tired of these insulting hyperbolic arguments of SCALE. The only way Afghanistan is a larger war than Vietnam on scale is the cost, even adjusted to inflation. Still, arguments of scale are pointless and do not serve either side of this debate well.

Of course, the OP is talking to a whole warehouse of kitchen tables. When you hysterics have your little minds made up, no amount of logic will sway you. Righteous indignation is addicting, isn't it?

I bet you think, like all the other nutbubbles, that because I have demonstrated how the two wars are different in SCALE, that I must approve of the escalation. You would be wrong.

Noting the immense difference between the two wars does not mean one approves of what the U.S. and the coalition are doing in Afghanistan.

[Speck Tater]

20. Every war is vietnam. Everyone who disagrees is a Nazi. Everyone who questions Obama is a racist.

Every economic downturn is the Great Depression 2.0
Every Christian concerned about morality is an American Taliban.
Every environmental problem is the imminent extinction of the human race.
Every political disagreement is the first stage of an armed revolution.
Everything under the sun is evidence for One World Government by the Illuminati.
Every short-sighted act of greed is proof that the rich are intent on destroying the middle class.
Any mistake made by any political figure, especially a president, means he is instantly and irrevocably toast.

Welcome to the age of hyperbole.

[valerief]

29. And every snarky post doesn't dispute facts. Although I like snark, myself. nt

[spoony]

23. How many lifelong, debilitating injuries?

A lot of people who wouldn't have come home from Vietnam come home from Afghanistan and Iraq, but who are no longer whole. Missing limbs. Head injuries. You name it.

[valerief]

30. Oh, the guys in big fancy multiple homes say it's worth it. Good war, they call it.

And what they say is all that counts.

:sarcasm:

[potisok]

32. Wrong, there are alike

Both a senseless wast of human life, body count is not and never should be a measure. I did my "stupid" time in Vietnam and the suffering of the vets (both sides) and the civilian population (both sides)is still very much alike, the two do rate comparing. My experience tells me the ones who suffer the most are the young and the old, both conflicts are much the same in comparison. Let the straw man burn brighter, any means to shed light on the wrongs of both conflicts.

[phleshdef]

33. Bodycount is definately a measure. Its common senseVietnam is a mountain. Afghanistan is a molehill.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. Yeah. Tell THAT to the "moles" that are sending their young to die in an unwinnable war.

God forbid one of YOUR furry little ones should be sent to die there.

[smalll]

35. Thank you. At this rate, we could fight in Afghanistan for 500 years -- for half the millenium --

before we'd approach our death toll in Vietnam.

[Jennicut]

36. There is no draft in 2009, another difference.

Vietnam was a mistake and I am not happy about any escalation for Afghanistan. But it is not totally the same thing.