Iraq War Reality Check

[sandnsea]

Democrats pushed Bush to set a timeline from the day they got majorities in the House and Senate. That and the end of the UN mandate allowing the US to be in Iraq expired.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-01-obama_N.htm

But if you prefer, go ahead and give Bush credit for "winning the war", if you hate Obama so much.

[IndianaGreen]

1. Here is the real reality check, thanks to all those that voted for Iraq War Resolution

Invaders casualties:

http://icasualties.org/Iraq/index.aspx

Iraqi casualties:

Update Nov 2006: New study of mortality in Iraq finds more than 600,000 excess deaths

http://www.iraqanalysis.org/local/041101lancetpmos.html

[ProSense]

2. Here's another reality check

If they had voted for Kerry's deadline, nearly 1,400 hundred would have lived. If Americans had voted Bush out of office, possibly 2,500 troops would possibly have been spared.

[IndianaGreen]

4. The Iraq War Resolution is on a lower moral plane than the Tonkin Gulf Resolution

We were lied into a war, and our political institutions failed the American people.

Many of those politicians from both parties that voted for IWR, did it despite their own doubts as to the "evidence." They voted for IWR because it was the expedient thing to do; put the vote out of the way before the Fall elections.

They went on merrily with their lives, some even rose to high positions, while the American people was left with the grim task of burying our dead, comforting our wounded, and paying for this god forsaken war.

[ProSense]

10. Bush started the war. He lied.

Now, when you come to grips with that, it will make your claim that Bush belongs at the Hague justifiable.

The IWR was not a declaration of war. Bush lied.

[IndianaGreen]

11. It was a bipartisan war!

Millions marched against the war in the US and the UK, and our glorious "democracies" ignored the calls for peace.

[ProSense]

17. It was Bush's war. n/t

[SunsetDreams]

18. about that "memory hole"

[IndianaGreen]

19. October 2002, Dick Gephardt agrees to co-author the Iraq war resolution

President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/10/images/20021002-7_d-iraq10022002-th-1-515h.html

Congress capitulates to Bush's call for war

by Doug Ireland

In These Times magazine, November 2002

That both houses of Congress would pass a resolution giving George W. Bush a free hand to take the country to war against Iraq whenever he felt like it-and that this blank check would be supported by quite large majorities-was never in doubt over these past few terrible and depressing weeks.

Why? Because the horrors of the 9/11 attacks produced a tectonic shift in our nation's politics. The slow movement of the country's political center of gravity to the right was given hugely increased momentum by 9/11 and its aftermath. It accelerated the Democrats' drift toward the center-not just on foreign policy- and cowed a majority of the party's incumbents into a fearful reluctance to confront head on a deeply flawed but highly popular Republican president whose "crusade" against terrorism had already given him the Teflon aura of a "wartime" leader. All year long, the so called opposition party has failed to oppose. So no one should have been surprised at the lopsided vote in Congress for an unjustified war in Iraq.

What became unmistakably clear in the days before the vote, however, was the degree to which the Democratic congressional leadership, by falling into the trap so artfully laid for them months ago by Karl Rove and the rest of Bush's political cabal, had connived in undercutting their own party's chances of advancement.

When Dick Gephardt and Joe Lieberman raced to the White House to stand shoulder to shoulder with Dubya in the Rose Garden to announce their co-sponsorship of the administration's war resolution, they did more than simply give Bush "the beautiful picture he wanted" for November (as George Will gleefully crowed on ABC's This Week). Their dastardly deal with Bush also guaranteed that Iraq will continue to dominate the news right through Election Day, and thus suck the oxygen out of the bread-and-butter issues (the economy, Social Security, Medicare and the like) on which the Democrats had hoped to take back the House and preserve the Senate. Just as Rove had wanted.

Tom Daschle, too, fell neatly into the White House's pocket when he decided to fast-track the war resolution, instead of waiting until after Election Day. The country was not clamoring for an immediate decision. In fact, all the polls showed growing discomfort with the notion of a war whose purposes-as described by Bush-seemed to change every week. Those same polls also showed that a majority of voters believed Congress, not the president, should play the deciding role in committing the country to war, as indeed the Constitution demands.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Politicians/CarteBlanche_CongressBush.html

Iraq resolution introduced in Senate

Bush hails 'unity'; debate set for Thursday

Thursday, October 3, 2002 Posted: 4:55 AM EDT (0855 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Despite some Democratic divisions, the Senate moved closer Wednesday to sanctioning war with Iraq with the introduction of a bipartisan resolution that gives President Bush the authority to commit U.S. troops.

In a Rose Garden appearance with lawmakers who support his plan, Bush hailed the resolution as a show of "unity" and declared that war with Iraq "may be unavoidable."

The Senate resolution mirrors one that House leaders and Bush administration officials agreed to earlier in the day. It would limit the use of the U.S. military force to Iraq and any "current ongoing threats" it poses, and allow Bush to use American troops to force Iraq's compliance with U.N. resolutions on disarmament. The congressional resolution would not tie U.S. action to a U.N. resolution.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/us.iraq/

[ProSense]

20. Who cares? It wasn't a declaration of war. Bush subsequently

attached a signing statement to the IWR that he was going to ignore it, and then he presented a letter and package filled with lies to Congress.

Bush lied, it's his war.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Bush lied, Democrats knew he lied, yet they all went along for the ride!

Iraq was a bipartisan war!

[ProSense]

22. No, they didn't. Bush launched the war in March 2003 with Democrats

like Kerry and Kennedy urging him not to in light of his failure to do due diligence and questions surrounding the evidence. He didn't have to, he wanted to. He lied in his SOTU, months after the IWR passed.

You want Democrats to take responsiblity for Bush's lie, they should not.

They can take responsiblity for believing him, but it was his lie, his bullshit, his action that launched the illegal invasion.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Democrats were advised to go along so as to get the issue out of the way prior to election

Where you in DU at the time? That was the big issue!

The poor excuse of Bush being urged not to go, collapses on the weight of the evidence: Democrats did not impeach Bush for going to war and they all cheered the sob when he announced that combat operations had ended aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.

I didn't forget having Evan Bayh call the SWAT team when a group of Hoosiers went to his office to petition for peace! The Bayh local office called the police.

[ProSense]

24. "Democrats did not impeach Bush for going to war "

Why should they have: according to you, it's their fault.

[IndianaGreen]

25. You forgot the Downing Street memos and Pelosi's fateful 'impeachment is off the table'

Some in here saw Bush as being bad for having an R after his name, while many of us saw him as an usurper and a war criminal no matter what letter followed his name.

[ProSense]

29. No I didn't and

why is the fact that Pelosi took 'impeachment is off the table' bothersome to you since the Democrats are equally to blame for the war?

[IndianaGreen]

31. The reason no one can be left off the hook on IWR is because it is happening again with Iran

Remember my first post on this thread where I cited links to the number of US, UK and others casualties and the Lancet Report on Iraqi civilian casualties? We will get another count started if we allow another war, this time in Iran.

The same brave Congress that couldn't wait to vote for war against Iraq, has already laid a path of resolutions authorizing actions against Iran. History repeats itself because we allow it to happen.

[Oregone]

12. "Conviction is a greater enemy to truth than lies" - Nietzsche.

Every brain-enabled American and their fuckn dog knew he was full of shit.

[Oregone]

3. Reality Check: The war is over!

Iraqis are now our "friends". Any deaths of "non-combat" troops is merely examples of "friendly-fire" in a "peace-zone"

[IndianaGreen]

6. We are leaving the equivalent of 3 mechanized Army divisions in Iraq

supposedly to "train" the Iraqi army and police.

[Oregone]

7. And what better way is there to "train" them...

than take them on simulated combat operations headed by US trainers who illustrate the concept of propelling metal projectiles accidentally toward friendlies who are errantly shooting back

[IndianaGreen]

9. That's pretty much what we are doing today in the Philippines

to the consternation of many Filipinos.

[27inCali]

27. I'm in the dark because Iraq has been wiped out of the news

None of our troops are going to be asked to fight, only to train Iraqi police and military. They still are at risk, but much less.

I haven't heard any solid statistics about how this draw down has effected the current cost of the war there, but if it tied at all to the size of the number of troops, it would mean less money blown on ignorant murderous bullshit.

ALL troops out in a year and 1/2. Which I think given the devastation we have brought upon the Iraqi people, it behooves us morally to invest in non-violent efforts to help them rebuild their society.

and hey, if they vote for idiots that run the government into the ground and tear each other to shreds once we are gone, well, we'll know for sure that we've succeeded in planting the seed of American-style Democracy in the Middle East.

sound like a pretty fucking mixed bag to me.

[SunsetDreams]

5. It's a cold day in hell before I give Bush Credit

Who is giving him credit? YOU have got to be kidding me.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Bush should be at The Hague facing trial for war crimes

and he should not be the only one!

[Recursion]

13. People who are pointing out the 2010-2011 withdrawl was negotiated in 2008

As part of the status of forces agreement with the "new" Iraqi government. Obama tweaked the pace of parts of it but the SOFA itself was negotiated under Bush. Bush even took a lot of heat from Republicans for it. Why the hell do so many things go down the memory hole?

[SunsetDreams]

14. Oh...

let's see who pressured him into doing it.

Democrats in Congress, Obama was out on the trail saying we should do it.

Hillary was out there in the Primaries saying we should do it.

Republicans were getting creamed for it. Bush only pushed for it to try and save some votes for John McCain.

I don't have memory lapse, I just don't give that ASS credit when he wouldn't have done it.

[Recursion]

15. It was the Iraqis that pressured him into doing it

The SOFA hit Wasington as a fait accompli and caught pretty much everybody by surprise.

[SunsetDreams]

16. I don't agree

He sure in the hell didn't care what Iraqis thought when he went in there did he?
Why should I believe that idiot cared that they wanted him out?

Do you think it was because he had pressure from other countries?
Hell he ignored the U.N., didn't wait for inspections, and went blazing in there, why would he listen to other countries?

NO I will never give him credit EVER.

[vaberella]

26. You really think Bush cared what Iraqi's think?

You make me laugh. :rofl:

[Recursion]

32. No, and I never said he "cared what Iraqi's think"

And no matter how much I strain I can't seem to contort my post into a claim about Bush "caring" what Iraqi people think.

[vaberella]

36. When you say the "Iraqi's pressured"

That says to me that the opinion of the Iraqi's mattered in some way or another to Bush and so he therefore cared that the was being pressured into doing something to get them off his back. My care had nothing to do with love and devotion here.

[sandnsea]

30. bwahahahahaha

That is so funny I honestly cannot even respond to it.

[sandnsea]

28. Did you read the fucking OP? At All??

WHY was any timeline negotiated in 2008??

Because Bush decided it was time to admit his mistakes and get out?? Is that what you're saying?

[Recursion]

33. That doesn't even make sense

And I never said a single thing about Bush's motivation. The post I was responding to asked why anyone would give W credit for the Iraq troop withdrawal, and I pointed out someone might do that because it was W's administration that negotiated it.

[sandnsea]

34. But It Wasn't

It was members of the House and Senate forcing those negotiations and forcing withdrawal. Maybe you didn't know that's what the Democratic Congress was doing between 2006 and 2008.

[Recursion]

35. Good lord

Start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

Congress didn't even get briefed on it until most of the decisions had been made.

[LittleBlue]

37. The hell are you on about?

What war have we won? Puzzling.