What would you do about the Bush tax cuts?

[ProSense]

Poll question: What would you do about the Bush tax cuts?

Over at The Atlantic, Clive Crook is arguing that President Obama should break his promise (in favor of choice 4 below): ...Once the recovery is secure, they will need to rise for all Americans, not just the rich. He should say so now. But until the recovery is secure, it would be best if nobody's taxes went up.


What would you about the Bush tax cuts?




(edited to change repeal to expire)

[Oregone]

1. Do nothing

AKA "repeal the tax cuts for both the rich and middle class"

Since the Democrats are trying to extend them to pander to "the middle", some horrible regressive concession will be made to get that 60th vote. Strap yourselves in you all.

[ProSense]

2. "Since the Democrats are trying to extend them to pander to 'the middle'"

What a horrible thing to do, especially when so many people are suffering and middle class tax cuts will actually stimulate the economy.

[Oregone]

3. "middle class tax cuts will actually stimulate"

Not as efficiently as Keynesian stimulus.

And yes, you already know that.

Tax cuts to the rich are not zero-sum as well, in regards to their stimulatory effects. Using the state of the economy as an argument against letting them expire and pursuing efficient stimulus works for all these cuts (and this argument really has little merit when you consider what this money could otherwise be doing)

[ProSense]

4. Right, because

relief must give way to Keynesian stimulus. How about using the rich tax cuts to pay for Keynesian stimulus?

[Oregone]

6. How about using it all to pay for stimulus?

What I propose is essentially a single stimulatory bill after the cuts expire

What you propose is a middle-class extension (which will be given away with some regressive concession to get the 60th vote) and using the rest of the money for a smaller stimulus. Thatll be fun sausage watching.

[ProSense]

14. No what you are proposing

is hardship on people who are suffering from the effects of corporate greed. At the very least the middle class tax cuts should be extended temporarily.

Also, funny how people seem to criticize Obama about deficit spending when making similar arguments indirectly. Spend it all: let the tax cuts on the rich expire and use it to pay for job creating stimulus. Extend the tax cut for the middle class to put money back into the economy. Offset them with ending the wars.

[Oregone]

15. Real hardship is not having a job

Paying your fair share on your income...now thats just a basic Democratic principle


"funny how people seem to criticize Obama about deficit spending"

Well, address them. Leave me out of it.

[ProSense]

18. "Paying your fair share on your income...now thats just a basic Democratic principle"

Ah yes, sounds like the Republicans arguing that this will be a burden on the rich.

[Oregone]

19. I'm not even sure WTF you mean anymore

Listen...if you are going to jump down people's throat for responding to a poll with an answer you don't like, just don't fuckn include it on next time

I will guarantee that to get those selective tax cuts, the Democrats will have to give something away for the 60th vote. And its going to suck. And is doesn't have to be done.

The only real justification for this here is "tax fairness". That could be just as easily accomplish with a raise on the top brackets. And let them fight publicly against that. End of story.

[ProSense]

20. "I will guarantee that to get those selective tax cuts, the Democrats will have to give something"

So that's your issue. Let them expire to screw Republicans?

"That could be just as easily accomplish with a raise on the top brackets."

How? Which Republican is going to vote for this?

[Oregone]

21. "Let them expire to screw Republicans"

Let them expire to fund a nation in a deep hole, needing revenue for debt and stimulus.

And if you are giving out "concessions" to get Republicans to vote for cuts in this climate, you have to really wonder if the aggregate effect will even promote any type of "fairness" at all at the end of the day.

[ProSense]

22. "Let them expire to fund a nation in a deep hole, needing revenue for debt and stimulus."

So debt matters? What are the chances Congress is going to pass a stimulus bill larger than the entire amount saved by letting the tax cuts for the rich expire? Answer: remote.

The middle class tax cuts are a way to continue much need stimulus and relief for people who have suffered from at least a decade of corporated greed.

[Oregone]

23. "The middle class tax cuts are a way " to pander

And there will be a cost to the pandering. It should be fun to watch. Ill have popcorn. Ill have a big screen. Ill have a front seat.

Let the show go on.

[phleshdef]

29. Middle class tax cuts keeps money in the hands of people without a disposable income.

The amount that the middle class generally pays is more than a sufficient amount. I for one can't afford for my taxes to go up much more. If I made 200,000 a year, that would not be the case.

[Oregone]

32. Im glad Bush designed this segment of cuts so efficiently!

Good God man...we all KNOW tax cuts aren't as efficient as direct government spending, food stamps, and aid to local governments.

So bang-for-buck aside, I wonder how many votes each dollar handed to the "middle" will buy! Hopefully itll be worth those concessions for the 60th vote!

[ProSense]

34. He had no choice

How the hell else was he going to disguise giving wealthy Americans on average $26,000?

It's pretty pathetic that the wealthy job creators have less impact on the economy with that amount compared to a $400 check to a middle class American.

[Oregone]

35. Im referring to the distribution of the cuts in that segment

That being, those with the largest propensity to spend being allocated the most amount of money in tax cuts.

Surely Bush did that, if we are going to be touting keeping them due to their grand efficiency.

Or maybe...just maybe, the Democrats could start from scratch.

Or if they did that in the name of economic stimulus, why would cutting taxes then be their method of choice amongst all other stimulatory measures....

You know what...lets just be honest...its about buying votes. If we can call a spade a spade, then surely what is given away for the magic 60th vote will seem a lot more "worth it".

Lets talk honestly about this all so we can weight the pros (votes) against the regressive con (give away)

[ProSense]

36. You seem to think it matters

that Bush did it. It's irrelevant. The issue is that the tax cuts for the rich are nearly worthless as a stimulus: his argument for doing it twice, and the Republicans' argument for trying to extend them.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

38. No, they don't.

Not equally. Money going back into the economy is far more stimulative than money going into the pockets of the rich.

[Oregone]

39. Yes they do

Compared to direct government spending, they most certainly do

You are arguing for inferior stimulus (or, just be honest, you are arguing for buying votes)

[phleshdef]

42. Yes, how dare they sell out to the middle class by "buying their vote"...

...in the form of not taxing us any more than they have been.

[Oregone]

43. The sellout will be the concession given away for the 60th vote

So the middle will be fooled into thinking there is some great progressive package (amounting to mere statistical peanuts to them), but at the end of the day, I got a feeling I know who is going to be walking away happy to the bank.

[phleshdef]

45. You aren't making any sense at all.

[Oregone]

46. Nor are any of you

Its stimulus (but there is more efficient stimulus)
Then its for a more progressive structure (which a raise on the rich will take care of)
The deficit doesn't really matter so its permissible (So why not keep the rich cuts?)

Its fuckn pandering. Plain and simple. And its going to have a cost because 60 votes will be required to prevent the sunset.

[phleshdef]

48. It makes perfect sense. Current middle class tax levels are FAIR.

Taxes on those with disposable incomes that far exceed what the average American needs to have a good quality of life are not fair. Anyone that benefits from the existence of our society beyond the point of having quality of life needs met should have to pay more when more is required and more is definately required.

[Oregone]

51. Fairness is determined ratios, not finite amounts

The same amount of "fairness" (and far more) can be accomplished by allowing a sunset and raising taxes on the top brackets. This approach will create the maximum amount of funds for stimulus, entitlements, and deficit reduction. I have a feeling that if this isn't a real concern of yours, or your negotiations would start with the option that proposed the maximum amount of "fairness" and additional benefits.

[phleshdef]

53. Or just allow the sunset on the top brackets to occur without adding burden to the middle class.

There is nothing wrong with that and its what most people want. You lose.

[Oregone]

55. "its what most people want. You lose"

The ultimate argument. If only black people would of listened to this!

[phleshdef]

59. Right because middle class taxation and slavery are equitable topics.

[Oregone]

60. For the love of God

The argument to popularity can apply to any fuckn topic under the sun

[phleshdef]

62. You are right. Popularity is worthless. Lets get rid of voting.

[Oregone]

64. Its worthless as far as determining optimal fiscal policy

[phleshdef]

40. Um, we can afford stimulus spending and maintain current middle income tax levels.

[Oregone]

41. Yeah, I mean really. Its just fairy money

You never really need to actually fund a government at any time.

I mean really...why is everyone complaining about the cuts for the rich? We can afford those too!

[phleshdef]

44. Right because the middle class doesn't pay anything at all right now.

My taxes taken out of my paycheck twice a month and my property taxes are just things I imagine every year. And I totally imagined that sales tax on those items I bought at the store the other day. Me and other middle class Americans aren't funding government at all. I guess the liberal media was successful in hiding the "Middle Class Doesn't Pay for shit for the next decade" tax act of 2001.

[Oregone]

47. Yeah, thats the strawman I was going for!

Right on!

[phleshdef]

50. If you don't want your words interpreted that way, then don't express them that way.

If you are having communication skill problems, then work to improve them.

[Oregone]

52. Or just dont fall back to logical fallacies when you have an inability to argue a point

I guess we can all use a little advice from time to time.

:toast:

[phleshdef]

54. You are the one that said I don't want to fund the government.

When I've been funding the government for years now and am not asking for my taxes to go up OR down. You have no point, therefore no ability to argue it is required.

[Oregone]

56. Well its all about what impacts you then!

Enough said! We don't want *you* paying anything more!


Im in favor of HR 6703, the World Revolves Around phleshdef Act


:rofl:

[phleshdef]

58. Me and most of the other normal people in this country.

Perhaps you should step outside your ivory tower of more liberal than thouness and learn something about real people. Maybe you will develop some social skills along the way.

[Oregone]

61. The same group that would of massaged Bush's chode on the way into Iraq?

Good lord man...you know how to set some low standards. "Normal people" mean fuck all to a policy discussion. I don't care what you or them want. Its irrelevant on a policy basis

[phleshdef]

63. I don't "want" the money I currently make. I FUCKING NEED IT.

Go start a business and give me a 6 figure job and then raise my taxes all you want. Until then, I pay plenty enough.

[Oregone]

65. So thank Bush--you never would of made the last few years with out him!

[phleshdef]

67. If Bush wouldn't have cut taxes for the top 2-10% at all, his tax cuts would have been acceptable.

Thats where the problem is. Of course you know that, but you now you are just trying to play around the discussion.

The fact is, 10% of the population owns 70% of the wealth. JUST lowering taxes a little for the people holding the other 30%, especially when the deficit was under control (as it was at the time), would have been fairly harmless. Had he not pulled us into Iraq, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Regardless, you have myself and others here advocating that the vast majority of wealth have higher taxes owed on it than what has been for the past decade. Thats something you should agree with.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

69. Forget the ivory tower.

The poster should actually live in this country and pay the taxes s/he is proposing. It's all fun and games when it means nothing.

[ProSense]

5. "Tax cuts to the rich are not zero-sum as well"

Even if they save $300 billion out of $678 billion, targeted appropriately, a hell of a lot of jobs can be created with that amount.

[Oregone]

7. *facepalm*

You are saying since middle-class tax cuts are stimulatory, we shouldn't repeal them when people are hurting.

Upper class tax cuts are also stimulatory (more inefficient though)

So, the basic argument about not allowing anything to sunset that may stimulate the economy applies to all these cuts. Its not a sufficient argument to level, on its own, against one set of the cuts and not the other.

[ProSense]

10. "Upper class tax cuts are also stimulatory (more inefficient though)"

A lot more inefficiently. The rich took a lot of money out of the economy on the false premise that it's stimulative and look where we are.

So facepalm all you want to.

[Oregone]

12. So then, there is an objective bar for what inefficient stimulus is permissable and what isn't?

:)

Hm...not really now. I think that entire argument is a bit of a fail.

The real argument you should be rolling with here is about "tax fairness" IMO. Unfortunately, this can also be achieved with a tax raise on the upper brackets after the sunset (which generates even more money for Keynesian stimulus)!

[flpoljunkie]

16. If you call 32 cents on the dollar, stimulatory. Not so much.

[Oregone]

17. Anything above $0.00 is stimulatory. Anything below $1 is stupid, inefficient and wasteful

Though, on edit, you could probably pad those amounts somewhat

[flpoljunkie]

49. Like I said, not very stimulative, Oregone.

[Exilednight]

8. Reagan proved that trickle down economics never trickles down, then ..............

shrub jr. reaffirmed it.

Bush Sr was correct when he called it voodoo economics.

[Oregone]

11. The actual amounts trickling out tend to be less than the amount spent on them

So what they tend to be great at is increasing the deficit really with minimal, inefficient economic gain.

Most tax cuts don't tend to have a whole lotta bang-for-buck really, in general.

[dionysus]

26. aren't you the guy who was applauding when the family in a 3 bedroom house was paying 12k in

property taxes?

"raise" middle class taxes... a brilliant political gameplan

[Oregone]

28. ""raise" middle class taxes"

Oh. So letting Bush's tax cuts expire is a tax raise.

Got it. Talking point delivered. Check!

And yes, Im the guy advocating wealth tax increases to offset/replace income tax.

[dionysus]

30. it *will* be the talking point, an effective one, and you know it.

[Oregone]

31. Why then, don't let me stop you from spreading and reinforcing it!

With friends like that....

[dionysus]

33. oh yes, no one would have used that talking point if i hadn't just mentioned it...

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

68. WTF? Pander to the middle? Sorry we're not all homeless and eating out of garbage cans buddy

but we're barely making it. You're talking about teachers, firemen, all civil servants hardly paying their bills, eating what they grow in their back yards, trying to send their kids to school and not being able to do it.

You're talking about people with 2 and 3 jobs who never see their own children so they can make their mortgage payments.

[AtomicKitten]

9. Rather than arguing with the GOP about this, Dems should just let them expire.

I doubt very seriously the GOP will accommodate the Dems by agreeing with keeping targeted middle class tax cuts. They will undoubtedly hold the whole shebang hostage. Just let them expire and move to legislate NEW middle class cuts.

[Oregone]

13. "They will undoubtedly hold the whole shebang hostage"

Itll be another teeth-nashing, hair-pulling experience that ultimately ends up in some act of spinelessness. And despite all that, its giving them one hell of a soapbox to spew their filth forth

[Barack2theFuture]

24. Other, sorta

I'd let them all expire, and make it abundantly clear that the expiration was enacted by a republican Congress and republican president in 2003. Separately, I'd propose a new round of Democratically-sponsored permanent middle-class-only tax cuts identical to (or slightly greater than) those in the expiring cuts.

[TheKentuckian]

25. I'd prefer to allow the whole deal expire myself

That money needs to be focused stimulus not a few bucks that gets ignored because of it's negligible effect on the individual or the larger economy.

[27inCali]

27. expand tax cuts for middle class

raise tax rate for those making over a million a year to 55% if not higher. I think the cat is out of the bag on that myth that the rich create jobs -no they don't, they destroy jobs and it's time they start helping to pay for all the damage they've done.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

57. expire for rich, temporarily extend middle class.....

and keep extending for the middle class as long as needed.



also raise for the rich (but not till his second term)

[Highway61]

66. I would Fucking Pay MORE

to see the tax cuts END permanently for the rich. Borrow from China for them (3 TRILLION over 10 years)?? Give me a break...where is the concern for the deficit now? A week ago it was a big deal for the unemployed (34 BILLION to this year's deficit). Now, there is no talk of the deficit? More than 10 times as much for the rich. May they rot in hell.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

70. yes make the super rich pay more and rein in offshore tax evasion

[Arkana]

71. In a perfect world without stupid, insane people, I'd let them all expire.

But I suppose I'd let the ones for rich people expire and keep the middle class ones, at least temporarily.

[Hawkeye-X]

72. Expire the rich tax cuts, raise it to 1963 levels, and extend deeper tax cut to the middle/poor

Nuff said.

[rury]

73. Let them expire forthwith and use

the revenue for a public works JOBS program!!