Would you prefer "Canadian Healthcare" to what we got?

[Warren Stupidity]

Poll question: Would you prefer "Canadian Healthcare" to what we got?

Apparently the words "Canadian Healthcare" are representative of the crazy things "professional leftists" want. I in fact would absolutely and unequivocally prefer the Canadian Healthcare System to what we have now and that nonsense that Congress passed. How about you?

Preferring the Canadian Healthcare system for this poll means you would prefer the implementation of a similar system here, for example by extending medicare to everyone, over the current system and its future under the recent health care reform legislation recently enacted by Congress.

[LWolf]

1. yes. nt

[DesertFlower]

2. yes. hubby did some

work last week with a guy who lives in canada. said he loves their health care.

[Canuckistanian]

37. You'll find that 85% of us do

The rest just whine and complain, but know there's NO DAMN WAY they can eliminate it.

Which is the way we like it.

[ibegurpard]

3. fuck yes

far from incremental progress, though, we reinforced private middle-men as providers with this "reform."

[IndianaGreen]

4. Yes, I prefer Canadian style healthcare to the for-profit monopoly in USA

Giving people the option of enrolling in Medicare regardless of age!

[ecstatic]

5. You missed his point. Maybe go back and re-listen to Obama's

comments regarding universal healthcare. If we could start from scratch, he said that would be the ideal system. But he took the reins during a recession in which millions had already lost their jobs. To disrupt the economy even further by switching to a new health care system would have been impossible.

[izquierdista]

8. There's no time like the present

I can tell procrastination when I hear it.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. we already have a universal health care system all set up

all we have to do is extend medicare to everyone. Obama's point was bullshit and Gibb's point was a fucking insult.

[pscot]

17. In that case maybe this was not the time

to tackle health insurace reform. I thought cap n trade and green jobs should have come first anyway, along with financial reforms.

[MrModerate]

22. Well, he and his advisors -- not to mention gormless dems in Congress . . .

Certainly thought it was impossible. I disagree. I think it was the best shot we've had in the last 50 years and maybe the last shot we will have in the foreseeable future.

Even if a rational national health system was politically and fiscally impossible, the public option was far from it, and should have been pursued resolutely. Instead, we've handed the villains -- insurance company death merchants -- a bigger stick to beat us with.

Do I appreciate the fact that the administration made any progress at all? Yes. Do I think it will ultimately prove ineffective? Sadly, yes also.

[Ignis]

29. The PO would be a great start...and it's in our party platform!

But I hear the party platform is "meaningless" these days, so what would I know? :shrug:

[DailyGrind51]

40. So, when you have been driving down the wrong road, instead of going back to where you went wrong

and taking the right road, you just keep driving down the wrong one, albeit, much slower?

[slackmaster]

6. Other - I don't know enough about it, and am not convinced that a true equivalent is possible

:hi:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[slackmaster]

15. I know quite a bit about many subjects

Health care is not one of them.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

7. I prefer the plan that can get 60 votes

So does Gibbs. That's what he said.

[ibegurpard]

9. you don't negotiate much do you?

you start with your ideal and work from there.
Their starting point was pretty indicative of where they wanted to end up.

[sandnsea]

11. We started with Ted Kennedy. Good enough for me.

I have absolutely no idea what is wrong in the heads of people who think they know better than Ted Kennedy on health care legislation.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. so you settled for a shit sandwich

'cause you were told that is all you could get.

But perhaps you misunderstood, wanting universal healthcare wa pronounced crazy. Nobody sane would want a system like Canadas. Agree or disagree?

[sandnsea]

21. I have subsidized health insurance

$70 a month for me and my husband. $500 deductible. Free preventive care. Free medication for our chronic illnesses. Very very far from a shit sandwich.

Who said wanting universal health care is crazy?

[Warren Stupidity]

23. ah so you settled for "let them have a shit sandwich"

good on you. Hope your situation doesn't change.

[sandnsea]

26. No. I expect everyone to get as good as I have

I tried to convince people that the place to fight was the details of the plan, the amount of the subsidy and deductibles. But nooooo, Ted Kennedy couldn't possibly have known what he was doing when he submitted his legislation. Just had to put everything into a public option which would offer the exact same benefits as the exchange anyway.

And you didn't answer my question. Who said universal health care was crazy?

[Warren Stupidity]

27. from the HCR legislation?

that is crazy talk. You should be drug tested.

[sandnsea]

28. Gosh. Why would Gibbs find it pointless

to talk to the left. Hmmm. I wonder.

[activa8tr]

16. Fuck NO you don't.........you want to avoid controversy...let me ask you

Were there 60 out of 100 votes for integrating schools in the South?

You are THAT timid?

[activa8tr]

12. Yeah, Fire Gibbs..........I'm sorry, he's got better care than me, but NOT AS GOOD AS

Canadians!

What the F**CK don't they get at the White House?

[eleny]

18. Yes and gladly pay the extra taxes for it

Canadians I've known over the years always spoke with confidence about their system.

[saltpoint]

20. I'd prefer a Canadian - European hybrid plan,

in place by close of business tomorrow.

The two obstacles to our having effective, comprehensive, and affordable health care for everyone appear to be that 1) as a nation our policy-makers are too reluctant to learn from other countries' superior systems and 2) the vulgar greed of the health insurance lobby.

[zulchzulu]

24. I prefer political reality in a short time period over fantastical, civics-challenged parlor talk

Anyone with half their mind in a realistic political state of reality knew that a Canadian-style form of healthcare and/or a single-payer form of healthcare was EVER going to happen within even five years of new legislative efforts started by the Obama administration.

I'm for a variation of single-payer that mirrors some of the British and Japanese styles with some alternatives that would also be added.

I've talked over the years with people who were like-minded in the possibility of such a thing happening.

They also are mature enough or not taken by bumper sticker empty posturing that the political reality of such a thing happening will go on without votes.

It's myopic and idiotic to think that the health care industry would take an immediate 180 degree turn and actually be policy within two years.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Uh, it's Gibbs' parlor talk we're discussing here.

He's the one who invoked "Canadian health care" and conflated support for that with a desire to abolish the Pentagon to sneer at the left.

[City Lights]

25. Yes. nt

[Catherina]

30. Yes. n/t

[Ignis]

31. K & R & Hell yes.

Thanks for posting this poll, Warren.

[BootinUp]

32. So if DU was like its own country or something

we would have a Canadian Healthcare system? How nice.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. several states have considered going it alone or in regional compacts

it would be nice if our own party had our back.

[sandnsea]

35. Stupid Dems in Oregon and Vermont

put in subsidized insurance. Goddamn them anyway.

[OwnedByFerrets]

34. FUCK YEAH

[last_texas_dem]

36. No, I only want whatever health care system guys like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman

are willing to give me. To even suggest a more substantial reform of the system might be beneficial would be downright un-American.

[Ignis]

46. Quite right!

We shouldn't question our betters, after all.

;)

[DailyGrind51]

38. Before 2014, U.S. health insurance premiums will probably be doubled!

[bornskeptic]

39. Absolutely not.

What we got is a healthcare system modeled on the best healthcare systems in Europe, those of Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands. HCP's most recent Euro Canada Healthcare Consumer Index evaluated healthcare systems of 33 European nations and Canada. The five countries which rated highest, in order, with point totals, were
1. the Netherlands 857
2. Germany 825
3. Iceland 821
4. France 809
5. Switzerland 806
The Canadian system, which the American left is so obsessed with finished 25th with a score of 594, just below Portugal and just above Slovakia.
The report includes the following remarks about the Canadian system:

Canada’s overall performance improved, but not enough to enable Canada to pass other
countries to move up in the rankings. Canada finishes in 25th place of the 34 countries
analyzed in this 2010 index. This is a similar placement to last year, when Canada
finished 23rd of 32.
Healthcare spending:
• What makes Canada’s placement in the bottom half of the rankings particularly
troubling is the fact that per capita healthcare spending in Canada is amongst the
highest in the world.
• Canada’s national and provincial governments spend over $3,500 per person on
healthcare each year—more than all but three of the countries analyzed in the index.
Only Norway, Switzerland and Luxembourg spend more money per capita on healthcare
than Canada.
• Canada’s poor performance in the ECHCI therefore cannot be attributed to
inadequate funding. Canadians are paying for a world-class healthcare system but for
a variety of reasons, they are not getting one.
• Canada’s healthcare problems do not stem from a lack of money, and it is therefore
unlikely that they can be solved by throwing more money at the problem. Instead,
substantial reforms to the way that healthcare is financed and delivered appear to
be necessary in order to bring the performance of Canada’s healthcare system into
alignment with high levels of spending.

http://www.fcpp.org/files/1/10-05-10-Euro-Canada_Index_2010_FINAL.pdf

The former head of the Canadian Medical Association gave an interview with the Kaiser Health News last year after returning from a trip to Europe on which he studied several European healthcare systems, looking for ideas to improve the Canadian system. He was asked his opinion about how the US should proceed to implement universal healthcare.

Q: Which country offers the best model for the United States?

A: A system like the Netherlands is interesting because it could work in your country. system is run by private insurance companies, six insurance companies. Some are for-profit and some are not-for-profit. It's not the government that is running the health care system, it is those companies. But they have rules. The first one is that it's compulsory to be insured. No company can refuse any patient. And if the patient is low income then the government will pay the premium. So the result is every patient is on the same level and has the same importance, because the money follows the patient. What they are doing is what they call "managed" competition. So as you can see, it's a bit different from what you have in the United States right now. But I was thinking it might work for you.

Q: Do you think there's room for this same sort of competition in the United States between public and private plans?

A: It could be one solution. In the Netherlands and some other countries … the state is paying the premium for those who cannot afford it. It's not a system in competition with the private system. It's a way of doing things. I'm not saying what your president is proposing is bad. But what they are doing in those countries is instead of creating a public system or public insurance, the paying the premiums.
<snip>

Q: Would the United States be well-advised to adopt some of the Canadian ways of doing health care?

A: I think so. The most important thing for us is to keep our system universal. If it is one value that you want to import, that's fine. But it doesn't mean you need to import all because it won't work in the States. And it's the same for us. You have good things in your system. But we don't want to have your system here in Canada. This is why we went to some European countries, to look at something different. And the first value we were looking for is universal access.

Q: What do you think about the chances of overhauling the health system in America?

A: You know, you're the number one country in the world. But to have 46 million Americans who don't have insurance coverage or coverage for health care, for me, it's not acceptable. But we need to improve both of our systems. And maybe we should look at what Europeans are doing — some solutions they have used — because they have universal coverage and their costs are much lower.


http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Checking-In-With/ouellet.aspx

Healthcare policy is far more complicated than the simplistic nostrums peddled by PNHP. If people here would make an honest effort to understand how healthcare is provided in countries such as the Netherlands and Germany, they would come to appreciate that President Obama and the congressional Democrats went the way they did was because they were trying to adapt methods which have worked elsewhere to the realities of American political and social realities, and not because they were all in the pocket of the insurance companies.

Those people who think that Medicare is cheap don't seem to realize that the Federal Government spends over $10,000 per enrollee per year, and that the average enrollee pays about $5500 annually in additional premiums and out-of-pocket costs.

[denimgirly]

41. vs. USA, Canada is miles ahead -- the US is living in the Stone Ages.

Yes Canada could use improvement relative to other countries but against the US it is a haven. Canadian live longer and are happier.

I have experienced both systems and from first hand experience i can tell you the Canadian system is the bare minimum one should have for healthcare...the US is appalling.

[Kdillard]

42. Thanks so much very interesting reading.

[depakid]

43. "What we got is a healthcare system modeled on the best healthcare systems in Europe"

:rofl:

You might want to apply for a position with Senator Baucus. He likely appreciates this laughable kind of thing- and he'll be in need of people to try to sell it when it comes into play down the line in 2014- when he's up for reelection

(then again, even he might not want to be too closely associated with libertarian propaganda from the likes of FCPP).

Nice try though. ;-)

I mean, the teabaggers won't have any of it-so where else is there to go?

[bornskeptic]

45. Spoken like a true PNHP sucker!

FCPP is only involved because they wanted to bring Canada into HCP's rating system. HCP is looked to by every nation in Europe for investigating possible improvements to their healthcare systems. There are plenty of other sources on the excellence of the Dutch and German healthcare systems. I'm sorry about your ignorance. I hope it's not too painful.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. "What we got is a healthcare system modeled on the best healthcare systems in Europe"

In which universe?

What we got (stuck) with is not really like what the Dutch or Swiss have, certainly not like what the Germans have, and does not even remotely resemble the French system. In you imagination the corrupt nonsense we got had with might someday be transformed into something like the Dutch system, but that would require major surgery, pun intended.

[killbotfactory]

44. I would like it, yes, but it is crazy to expect that in the US

If you think we ever had a chance in hell of extending medicare to everyone, especially within a couple years into a new democratic government, then you don't understand the forces at work in our government and how it operates.