Some of my family in Canada hate Canadian health care. Here's why.

[Billy Burnett]

Here's a couple of examples of why ...

When my dad (in his early 80's) was diagnosed with colon cancer he faced serious colostomy surgery. He had the surgery within a week. Complications ensued. Infections, pneumonia, etc etc etc. He went back and forth between recovery and ICU for 4 1/2 months.

When the time came to finally wheel the old guy out of Kingston General hospital, alive and OK, we had to stop at the cashier's office. My mother had a shit fit over the bill (which was primarily for the private room we wanted for my dad). The bill for 4 1/2 months of intensive care, great nurses, caring and thorough doctors, endless testing, chemo, private room? ... $450 cdn.

Too much according to my family in Canada.

My sister was diagnosed with melanoma. She was OUTRAGED that she had to wait 3 weeks for surgery to remove some cancerous areas. Her copay was under $50 at Halifax General.

Outrage over the wait times, and outrage over the high bills!

Some Canadians hate their health care system. :crazy:

[alcibiades_mystery]

Canadian healthcare is certainly preferable to what we have in the US

Both pre- and post- health reform bill.

Unfortunately, there's no way to get 60 votes on that in the Senate, supposing one even gets the House on board. Would that it were so.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Especially when you have an administration intent on

supporting Blue Dogs over Progressives.

Well, to be fair, not just the Administration. Rahm was dojng that before there WAS an Obama Administration.

[droidamus2]

119. Another tactic

How about the tactic that allows you to bring up legislation like 'single payer' even though you know at the time it will be defeated. The idea being that you announce that this is such important legislation that you will keep bringing it up until it passes. At that point you do just that at every opportunity you add it as amendments or you present 'single payer' as it's own bill. This keeps the idea in peoples minds (and hopefully in the media) and sometimes (not guaranteed) people start seeing it as inevitable that 'single payer' will eventually get passed. Right now the framing seems to be 'we can't even talk about single payer because we can't get it done with the current Congress'. That puts the wrong impression in peoples minds (it can't be done) where the 'it will eventually pass' idea gets the political momentum moving in the right direction. Don't know whether it would work but it is at least worth a try.

[SkyDaddy7]

120. Although I like what you are saying I have a question...

How do you sell it to a public that has never been in favor of "Single Payer" and was so easily convinced the current HCR is just another example of Socialist polices coming from the left when we all know it is ANYTHING but!

The Right has a media empire repeating their message 24/7/365 and this empire pulls most of all the other media with them or at least influences how they report.

If you or anyone else can show me that MOST of the American Public was behind "Single Payer" at anytime leading up to the Health Care Debate I would love to see it! I do not want to have incorrect ideas in my head. I followed this debate way before it actually began and not once did I see a single poll that showed a majority of Americans were willing to give up their employer based insurance for Single Payer.

If folks can't even get on board with HCR that basically does not effect most who already have insurance, would stop them from being dropped like I was, allows them to keep their children on their policy long enough for them to acquire almost any level of degree their child wants and actually reduces the deficit in 10 years among other positives...Then how do you convince the public of anything without doing it over several years a little at a time?

Do not attack me calling me a Republican or whatever I am asking a very important question that needs to be answered if we ever want to have a chance at passing "Single Payer".

[YewNork]

126. We've got to take this in steps

I'm for single payer, but I'm also for the current reform in the meantime because it will help to disprove the standard lies that opponents use whenever there are moves to reform the health system:
Things like:
It takes away your freedoms.
The government will tell you which doctor to go to.
The government is taking over the health system
Death panels, etc

The GOP always falls back on these lies because there's no way to disprove them. Well now there is, because reform was passed. Once people see that the GOPs lies are lies,
it will help advance more reform in the future.

[SkyDaddy7]

141. I totally agree!

I am already getting called a Republican or saying the obvious. Oh well.

Thanks!

[fasttense]

133. You quote RepubliCON talking points and don't even know it.

You and many people like you are so use to the lies from the right that you even quote them unknowingly.

You claim "How do you sell it to a public that has never been in favor of "Single Payer"?"

"Polls that ask reasonably informative questions about single-payer show that somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of Americans support single-payer."

You should look at these polls:

Percent of those polled supporting single payer:

AP-Yahoo (2007)……………………………………………..65%…………..not asked
Grove Insight (2009)………………………………………64%……………..28%
Grove Insight (2009)………………………………………60%……………..27%

Arch Int Med (doctors) (2004)………………………………64%…………….not asked
Minnesota Med (doctors) (2007)……………………………64%…………….not asked

The RepubliCONS misrepresent the results of the polls and then claim Americans wont support single payer. It's all rubbish and propaganda.

The MAJORITY of Americans SUPPORT single payer. It's just Congress and the RepubliCONS who don't support it. Here are some links: http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/12/09/two-thirds-support-3/
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2010/3/22/21449/8979/Diary/Republicans-Lie-About-Health-Care-Reform-Approval-Ratings

[SkyDaddy7]

142. You are NOT paying attention...

I know it makes you feel cute & cool to roll out the "Republican Talking Point" comment but it failed.

I said how do you sell "Single Payer" to the public, period!

I am not looking for a "play on words in polls" lesson that you linked to.

Yes, people might like "Single Payer" if they knew more about it...I am not arguing that.

I am asking how do you sell "Single Payer" to a nation that goes into panic over Death Panels?

How do you overcome the FEAR coming from the Right Wing Media Empire?

[droidamus2]

135. Good point

I think the way you get to the public is (I hate to take this from the Republican playbook but they are good at it) you pound your message. Every time a Democrat gets an opportunity in the media they make sure they push the value of 'single payer'. Get your 'talking points' together so that whenever a Republican uses the 'its socialism' argument you can counter attack immediately. That's why my tactic pushes keeping the idea in the public consciousness by reintroducing it over and over that can give you more opportunities to get your message out. The cynic in me says that sometimes the public will change their minds because they just get tired of hearing about it and get the attitude of 'pass it already we are tired of hearing about it'. You are right that with the right-wings veritable control of the media it is hard to get the message out so you have to take every opportunity.

[SkyDaddy7]

143. I agree...

pound the message! However, how does the message of the positives of "Single Payer" overcome the power of the FEAR & Lies coming from the Right Wing Media Empire! Seriously, look what the nation did over Death Panels.

I agree, I just wish there was a way to keep the message going LOUD like the Right can due through the Murdoch Media Empire.

I think the key is to pass a little at a time like someone else on this thread said...The current HCR was a good start. We have to wean our selves off for profit HC.

[YewNork]

124. Yes, Canada's system is preferable to pre and post reform but remember that

post reform is preferable to pre reform.

[alcibiades_mystery]

145. I don't agree with that at all

[stevenleser]

149. Good to know. My ignore list loves to meet people who deny reality n/t

[amyrose2712]

1. ...

[spiritual_gunfighter]

2. Still it is much better than here

and even with the changes in the new Health Care bill it will still be better than what we have here.

[me b zola]

112. If you are fucking rich

Seriously, I am one sick puppy. I told the "volunteer doctor" at the clinic who saw me not long after Obama was elected, " we'll either get health care, or I'll move to Cuba or I'll fucking die." Well, we sure the fuck didn't get health care, so for me its move to another country or die. I don't want to die so we are doing everything we can to sell our house and move to South America.

[zipplewrath]

3. UK system

Wife got sick an infection while on vacation in the UK. We were in a small town on a Saturday. We walked into a Boots Pharmacy that claimed to have the ability to have a medical staff. They told us we'd have to see a doctor first, and gave us the number of the NHS to arrange it. We called them, and within an hour we were seeing a physician at the local hospital. They apologized for the long wait. They saw her for about 40 minutes while I discussed with them how to pay for it. They didn't have a clue, but took down my address in case they ever figured it out. We went BACK to the Boots to fill the perscription, again we weren't part of the NHS system so I figured they'd charge us full price. The pharmacist tried to determine the price but in the end charged us $3 for the perscription. From start to finish, including having to walk the few miles to and from the hospital, it was about 3.5 hours, and $3.

God, I can understand how folks would just HATE such a system.

[teenagebambam]

4. Sounds like a NIGHTMARE

[Billy Burnett]

6. My sympathies for the HORRORS you had to endure.

:sarcasm:

My freaking sister in Canada wanted a system like the US for Canada - until I faxed her some of my health ins premium bill and noted the high deductible.


Canadians who hate their health system are living in an icy bubble.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. some years ago my daughter had an ear infection after arriving in the UK

the doctor agreed to see her - we only had to wait about 10 minutes and they gave her a free prescription because she was under 16. What a horrible system!

[closeupready]

51. That should be a crime.

Punishable by hard labor. :mad: :sarcasm:

[YewNork]

127. Same thing happened when I was a child

My family was on vacation in England and we ended up having to go to a doctor because I got sick.
When my dad asked how much to pay, they "No charge.", my dad said, "But we're Americans. We don't live here.",
The answer again was "No charge." And that included a prescription for an infection.

[hootinholler]

24. It could have been worse

Your hotel might have had a doctor on call and you could have gotten a dreaded house call.

-Hoot

[mwooldri]

89. Costs of medications in England - a rip off.

It's about #7 GBP per prescription, though if you're on a lot of drugs you can buy a prepaid cert at about #120 GBP for all your drugs for a year. That is of course if you have to pay.

If you don't want the English NHS ripping you off you could always move to Scotland... no prescription fees there.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

101. I think it's free in Wales as well

:hi:

[YewNork]

128. The United States subsidizes drug costs for the rest of the world?

When my uncle was visiting from England, someone here in the US started the debate with him that the US subsidizes the cost of drugs for the rest of the world because
we let the market decide the costs here in the US.

My uncle replied "Don't blame me if your government doesn't want to make any deals with the drug companies on prices."

When people talk about "price controls" they think that foreign governments dictate the prices at which drug companies will sell their products. They don't.
If they did, the drug companies would just tell the foreign governments "Well, screw you. Tell your citizens to get the drugs that we hold a patent on from some other company.

Foreign governments negotiate prices by setting up bulk purchases or giving extended patents to the drug companies.

The fact that the US lets the market decide drug prices, is not the fault of other countries.

[krispos42]

104. You had to WALK?

Obviously an impossibility in the United States. You know you else walked a lot? Judas. :tinfoilhat:

[quakerboy]

117. When I was over there, I got some sort of respritory thing

I think i have pressure issues, cause it started in my ears on the flight, and then headed down my throat and into the lungs. I lived with it for a few days. College students do that. Then I went in. I had no clue. A Dr saw me in under 15 minutes from arrival at the hospital. That Dr had a bedside manner far greater than any i have ever met anywhere else. They rushed me into x-rays, prescribed a few things, and sent me to a pharmacy. No charge for the poor benighted foreigner. I think I ended up with a about a 10 pound bill from the pharmacy, but that included several over the counter throat lozenges and some soda.

Now I am here with no insurance, and no realistic hope of having any.

[shireen]

5. OMG, what a terrible system!

Mom had to pay $450 for 4.5 months? Here in the US, that's like 12 hours in the hospital! Thank goodness money grows on trees here ... all i have to do is go to the back yard and pluck a few $50 bills.

:crazy:

[hedgehog]

7. Here in the US, that's what it takes if you fill out the paperwork in the ER!

[shireen]

13. except if you have insurance ...

my insurance expects referrals for ER visits. Imagine that! My doctor has to be a psychic; she has to know ahead of time that i will become very sick and need emergency treatment. I know from first-hand experience!

It's insane. Not only do they bleed you dry financially, they have such ridiculous policies too.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. I was in a rollover accident a few years ago.

Fortunately I was conscious when the cops got there, so I was able to tell them which hospital to take me to so I would be covered. Unfortunately, though, they called an ambulance that was out of network, so I got stuck with the ambulance bill. Had they taken me to the wrong hospital, I would have had the whole bill for the ER as well.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

20. my husband had to wait 8 weeks for radiation in the USA

because they didn't have the facilties and there was a long waiting list. This was the number 1 hospital in the US. The insurance company wasn't going to pay for it at first but that wasn't the reason for the wait.

[MedicalAdmin]

34. Ahem - I never said this and you don't know me if anyone ever asks.

BUT. In our medical office we will backdate a recommendation that you visit an ER if you ask us to. We just log into our records that a patient called the doc on their cell phone and that the doc, after listening to the symptoms detirmined that (fill in the blank) could lead to life threatening complications and that immediate care to rule out (fill in the blank) was recommended.

Not all medical practices are out to screw folks. I daresay that in my experience most medical care folks would help out if they could. Private health insurance is pure evil.

[shireen]

42. yeah, i understand what you're saying. Comments were directed insurance co, not my doc's office.

my doctor's office is great, and have issued back-dated referrals for numerous ER visits. Just seems to ludicrous that the expect a referral for an emergency. And dealing with insurance companies when i'm sick is not a pleasant experience. sigh!

[LibDemAlways]

87. I had to have an emergency c-section late at night when my

daughter was born. The next morning my husband called the ins. co. and their first instinct was to deny coverage on the grounds that it hadn't been pre-approved. The doctor intervened and the matter was straightened out, but I could never understand the stupidity of needing a referral for an after hours emergency. Just total bureaucratic bullshit.

[Thav]

105. I had that experience too..

My wife had pre-eclampsia and HELLP syndrome. At about 4am on a sunday morning, a keystone kops style cadre of doctors and nurses fills the room, kicking me (literally, I was laying down on a cot) out of the way. I hear my wife say, "What's going on?" One doctor says, "We need to do a c-section now, before we can't anymore." About 10 minutes later I'm left alone in the room, praying I would still have a family when the sun came up. Everything worked out, due to the attention of doctors, nurses, and my wife's primary care nurse-midwife.

HELLP syndrome is a complication of pre-eclampsia, where your kidneys shut down and your liver overworks to the point of rupture. Quite life threatening.

Anyway, when my wife was admitted Sat. night, I called the insurance company. Know what I got? Voicemail. That's right, voicemail. No, I didn't leave a message.

Fast forward to when the first bill comes in with "Insurance denied" and five digits to the left of the decimal point in the "Amount Due" column. I call the insurance company and ask why they denied it. Because it wasn't pre-authorized. I remember exactly what I said: "This was an emergency procedure, as my wife was 2 HOURS away from dying. I CALLED Saturday night, but no one was answering the phones. If you want pre-authorization of EMERGENCY procedures, then someone better be waiting with the power to do it 24 hours a day." I got some lame response to that, so I said I was going to contact my lawyer and the state attorney general over their business practices.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ on a Pogo Stick, can we have a national insurance program that doesn't force people to lawyer up to get the coverage you pay for?

[florida08]

125. that is lunacy

what good is insurance that requires pre-approval for an emergency? Is it an HMO? Even my PruCare didn't require that. Americans should not be going thru this kind of Catch 22. My God what a nightmare for you.

[LibDemAlways]

138. It's insane, I know. I'm glad your wife got the professional

care she needed when she needed it.

The job of the insurance co. should be to pay the claims of the policyholders - not to second-guess the doctors or make up excuses to deny claims.

Our stories are excellent evidence that we need single-payer universal no bs coverage. A pipe dream in this country apparently.

Oh, and welcome to DU!

[YewNork]

129. It's to the insurer's benefit to initially deny coverage

The way they figure: If you're really serious, you'll appeal it. And if you don't appeal it, they've saved the money.

[dflprincess]

91. I think the insurance companies have put most doctors in the position

of having to commit what the company would call "fraud" but is what the doctor calls "treating patients".

When it comes to our health "care" system, if you're going to get screwed, it's way more apt to be the insurer, not the doctor.

[a la izquierda]

75. my insurance requires this too...

crazy.

[Billy Burnett]

11. $450 Canadian dollars.

Of course, they were overtaxed to pay for it (top bracket combined tax rate -vat, Ontario provincial, federal- at that time was 29%).

Complaining Canadians are a bunch of whiners.

[MedicalAdmin]

35. 29%!!!!!!!!!

Sweet Jesus. I'm self employed. I pay over 40% on my modest take home of about 20K. I'd kill to get 29% with those kind of benefits.

[YewNork]

130. They do pay higher sales taxes - but it's worth it if it includes health coverage

[kath]

50. Actually, you'd go through that in about half an hour.

MIL was recently in the ER - $4600 for a 2-4 hour visit -- don't remember the exact time period.

Good friend was in the hospital a few months ago - $20,000 for 24 hours. No surgery - just tests to rule out a stroke.

This is freakin' insane.

SINGLE. PAYER. NOW.

[sabrina 1]

61. You forgot about chickens. Didn't some loon on the right

claim we could trade chickens for health care? Not that it would help me as I don't have any chickens :eyes:

[Joe Bacon]

71. Wow, that's sure a lot of buckets of KFC!

My doctor joked about that. He said he's gotten so much chicken that he had to by a new freezer :rofl:

[sabrina 1]

81. Lol. Did you ask him if he'd prefer Bacon? n/t

[Joe Bacon]

85. Dr said he's getting pretty tired of chicken!

:rofl:

[FedUp_Queer]

113. 12 hours hell.

When I lost my job and my insurance, I had to go to the emergency room for an ear infection (chronic problem since I was a kid). Since it was a chronic problem, and after the doctor looked in my ears, I told the doctor what it was and how doctors had treated it in the past. Her response: "Sounds good to me." The whole "appointment" lasted less than 2 minutes. Then I got a bill in the mail for nearly $700.

[T Wolf]

8. Yeah - Those Canadians and Europenas sure have screwed up medical care. When my

daughter was attending school in London, she and her roommates went to Amsterdam one weekend.

They rented bikes and unfortunately, one of them crashed in a dark alley. They went to the local hospital and she was treated with no delay and no cost and no bullshit about how they would pay for it. She simply showed her (visiting) student ID and everything was taken care of.

Bonus - when they returned to the scene, hours later, the rented bicycles were still there.

Neither of these things would happen here in Amerika.

[meowomon]

9. I love my American health insurance...NOT

My insurance company (United) wouldn't pay for the recommended medication for my eye, so my kind ophthalmologist (who thinks "Obamacare" doesn't go far enough and we need either a public option or Universal healthcare) had some extra put aside for people like me with crappy health insurance. Thank God/dess for the kindness of my doctor: Dr. Brooks of Tallahassee, Florida! He's a Gator, but I don't hold that against him!

[booksenkatz]

10. Tell them to watch "Sicko" -- they'll suddenly LOVE what they've got. NT

[Upton]

14. My SO lost her healthcare

at the end of July. She's never been the healthiest either. We knew it was coming so we've been scrambling to find some kind of alternative. Isn't it great living in fear? Give me the Canadian system anytime.

[fadedrose]

27. Somebody should send this thread to Robert Gibbs

He doesn't seem to understand why we are not grateful for the Health Care Bill. I resent his smart crack about we won't be satisfied until we have Canadian Health Care.


I'm sure the new bill helps some people, but can't think of a soul I know.

[MedicalAdmin]

36. re: I'm sure the new bill helps some people, but can't think of a soul I know.

I can't either and I am the office manager at a medical clinic. When we analysed the bill and applied its' outcomes to our patient demographics we came up with a goose egg - a big, fat nothing. None of our patients will benefit and a significantly growing minority of uninsured patients make just enough to afford something but not enough to use crappy insurance. Most of them have told me that they will pay the fine and then take their rage out on whoever is in office until something is done.

If someone from the WH is reading this, understand that I am not talking about a few cranks - I am talking about 500 adults and their families who are getting ready to rage against the (political) machine. So for your own careers and for the people you pretend to represent, please fix this. Go single payer - it only makes economic sense.

[Canuckistanian]

16. I once had to wait 40 whole minutes in a hospital waiting room

Then, after the doctor saw me I was sent for Xrays and a blood test. Well, THAT took about 15 minutes.

Then the doc wrote me a prescription that cost me $6 friggin' dollars for the dispensing fee! Can you believe it?

You're right, our health care service is going to the dogs.

[jschurchin]

19. I once had to wait 40 min in the ER

for them to notice that I was waiting, then another 30 minutes for them to ask what was wrong. Then another 20 minutes to show that I had some way to pay for this wonderful service. And I'm not gonna tell you how long it took to see a Dr.
Thank god I only had broken ribs and couldn't breath. I can only imagine if something was really wrong.

[MedicalAdmin]

38. Last time I was in an ER was after a car accident.

I was transported by ambulance on a back board and couldn't feel much below my neck. Check in took over an hour and then paperwork took another 2 hours. Then I was put on the waiting list for a doctor. 8 hours later one wandered in. In the meantime I wasn't checked on once and I wasn't hooked up to remote monitoring. I had yelled for some help and no one came. I eventually pissed in my pants and then defecated and still no one checked on me. Luckily my wife had beenfound and notified by that time and showed up and raised holy hell. It got better after that but that incident (at a well rated emergency room in the best hospital in the area) seriously opened my eyes.

ER's in the US suck just as much as any other part of the medical care system. If you are a multi millionaire it is fine. For everyone else it sucks to death. Actually according to the NEJM the US is NOT where you want to go to an ER or try to see a specialist unless you have cash or a cadilac insurance plan. We have longer waits that any of the G8 for similar services.

[mrs_p]

58. i'm glad someone told your wife

when my hubby and i were dating, he got jumped as part of a gang initiation. he was taken to the ER (which happens to be a level 5 trauma center) and NO ONE contacted his family. we were frantic trying to find out where he was. we didn't know until the sheriff's office called his mom to follow-up on the beating. b/c we all worked at another near-by hospital, we were able to find him on an intra-hospital network. when we got there, he was still covered in blood (over 12 hours later) and filthy from being beaten-up. it wasn't until they found out he was a special patient of a well-respected GI doc in the area, that they even tried to take care of him. oh, yeah, then they gave him the wrong GI meds for his ulcerative colitis.

yippie for the BEST healthcare in the world. :sarcasm:

[Enthusiast]

76. Canuckistanian, you just don't get it.

My family and I typically wait over 40 minutes for a regular pre-arranged appointment with our family doctor.

[Canuckistanian]

78. I was being sarcastic

I rarely have to wait more than 15 minutes.

And I was fibbing about the prescription fee. I have a plan at work that covers everything.

And the very rare things that work doesn't cover, COULD be paid by a government program if I were indigent or unemployed.

We take these things for granted in Canada. So does any other industrialized country.

Only in America do you pay through the nose for an unreliable, capricious and expensive "insurance" plan.

[aquart]

100. Michael Moore plays the Nixon tape that decided our healthcare in Sicko.

Nixon got away with murder.

[Enthusiast]

121. But we have something you

don't have. We have IGNORANCE. We are ignorant of the nature of health care in other countries, even one as close as Canada. :crazy:

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Wow, boy, Howdy. a whole thread full of crazed, drug-addled whining

retards who just don't appreciate what the Administration has done for them. We have to stay in the realm of the possible, Dammit. And that doesn't include room for requirements that would inconvenience the insurance industry. Like actually requiring them to pay for their insurees' health care for example.

[Kdillard]

22. Well then I hope you were out there protesting and calling up your congress people

when the Administration was being attacked daily along with Dems for the Socialist takeover of Healthcare. People seem to expect a lot out of this Administration but give them no support or things that they can point at to get exactly what they want. We definitely saw a lot of tea baggers and some of the nastiest people gathered in townhalls I had the misfortune of seeing. I really don't see how your snark is helpful when the fact is given tremendous opposition this Administration got through a Healthcare Bill that isn't perfect but can be built on and improved.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. They could have started the negotiations in some way

that didn't involve giving away the center. I do think it was kinda cool, though, how they arrested all those Communist healthcare providers that wanted to talk about single-payer.

Sure they get attacked from the right. So did FDR. His response was "I welcome their hatred." Theirs is "How high you want us to jump?" FDR had his equivalent of the Blue Dogs too, especially in his first term, but his bold liberalism won him a stronger majority in '34. If you're gonna fall off the platform, it's better to go off the left edge than the right edge.

[Kdillard]

25. I am a fan of FDR also but please stop rewriting history he had his issues

with the left and if you look at the bills he signed for example the Social Security Act you would see that they were by no means perfect or at least I believe would be unacceptable to the left today as it stood back then. That by no means takes away from what a tremendous accomplishment it was and how it has affected generations of Americans. What I do know about this adminitration is that even though President Obama was told not to tackle this because it would cost him and even though he saw the failure of Bill Clinton to get it done he still forged ahead with little vocal public support and tremendous criticism from all sides. Obama and FDR are not the same people and those sort of comparisons are useless. I don't know if what President Obama has done regarding Healthcare will have a positive impact but I am glad he tried and I hope that future generations will look upon it favorably.

[ClassWarrior]

26. You're right. He had issues. The left had to force him to do nearly everything good he did.

CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on "Democracy Now!' the day after Super Tuesday 2008:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression — working people, the unemployed — and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. If SS were written from scratch today,

it would be a private 401k plan.

[MedicalAdmin]

39. If SS were written from scratch today,

it would be a night deposit box to some corporate account in the Cayman Islands.

[Jackpine Radical]

41. Ainnit the truth.

[Enthusiast]

77. It might as well be. nt

[joe black]

139. Why should the admin. listen to the nutbags.

Then go with what they want and not what 68% of the people want, single payer. It makes no sense.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. K&R

from someone currently working in our healthcare system.

[polly7]

28. Yes. it can really, really suck.

My Dad is in for transfusions (3 units) that have to come on the bus from the city twice a week, has treatments for an iron overload syndrome he's since developed, once a week, and his darn doctor (sarcasm; the whole area adores him, the smartest, kindest person I know who gives 100% for every pt.) only walks back and forth from the clinic (his clinic is almost next to the hospital) two or three times to relay him what the specialist says when he gets back to him and check up on his blood and iron levels. My Dad refused the TV because it was going to cost $5.00 a day ....... yet they gave it to him free for some reason. His room looks like a hotel suite ........... but, no flowers, no fridge. So far, all this has cost him zilch, apart from gas, meals and hotel rooms in the city - which are cheaper if you are in for medical reasons and can be claimed on income tax.

Sorry for the sarcasm, this is a true story and my father is in rough shape, but he's seen specialist after specialist within weeks ....... not months, and gotten great care all along.

I do have some complaints, the lack of access to care in northern communities apart from an RN or PA (not dissing them, they are fantastic but lack the ability and equipment for some things) and no way to get out during an emergency when weather is bad, a lack of sufficient doctors in rural communities mostly everywhere, and wait times for certain procedures such as joint replacement. I feel for those people, the pain must be terrible. I believe those wait times are getting shorter, and they are working hard to reduce them.

[Pisces]

29. What people in our country want is Canadian health care with no raised taxes.

This doesn't exist. Can you imagine telling Americans that everyone has to pay 40% in taxes???? We are a stupid bunch and you could not get the dems on board with this plan, much less the Repubs.

[ClassWarrior]

32. That's why we need to show them that any tax raise will be offset with insurance savings...

...as well as a host of hidden cost benefits that will FAR outweigh it.

NGU.

[Pisces]

48. I understand and would have no problem paying, however, the right would never be convinced.

We can not even get our own group together at present.

[eridani]

59. How fucking STUPID do you have to be--

--to prefer a $900/month "premium" to a $50/month "tax"?

[Kdillard]

60. If you watched the Health Care debates in the House of rep and Senate on CSPAN or

watched any of the rallies or townhals with people against HCR you would know there is no limit to the stupid.

[eridani]

80. Actually there is. Despite all the MSM flogging of the teahadist bullshit-

--60-80% of the public wanted the public option anyway.

[Pisces]

63. Facts, truth and common sense are in short supply on this board and you want

the American people of which 40% believe Obama may not be a citizen to understand the concept of raising our taxes for Canadian healthcare!!! Why do some continue to believe that we have
a dictator in place who can command the changes we want to see by waiving his sceptor???

[Billy Burnett]

64. We pay higher taxes now than Canadians (cuz they aren't buying generational war)..

How many of their own nuclear weapons does Canada manage?

FYI, I'm a Canadian resident alien of the US. I own a small business and pay thru the nose just like 'Muricans.

[Pisces]

69. I am all for reducing the military budget, Canadian healthcare etc, however it is utopian thinking

to expect those things to come to fruition under the current political climate. If we voted in an overwhelming Dem majority to both houses, then we could demand things. We want to complain about
compromise under this admin, however, we forget the admin has to work with the current congress. If we had 75 Dem Senators and 350 House memebers, then we could shove our policies down the
Repukes throats. What has been accomplished up to now is nothing short of a miracle.

They want to incite violence against this President, the fear and hatred run deep. They don't want him to succeed, and we won't accept anything less than perfection. How can the admin win with both
sides tearing it down??????? The only winners are the Repukes who have a chance to take the House, boy won't that work in our favor for more legislation.

[eridani]

79. So, it's "utopian" for the CA legislature to pass single payer THREE TIMES?

It's "utopian" for primary candidates for Vermont governor to argue with each other about who has done most to promote state single payer?

[Pisces]

82. Those states have huge Dem majorities and in Vermonts case socialist

candidates!! That is what I am talking about. If we had those majorities in the Senate and House then we could push our agendas through. Obama does not have a magic wand, yet he was able
with some compromise to get a shitload done. If we want to complain we need to know what it's going to take to implement the change we are demanding.

[eridani]

83. You get Canadian health care here the way Canadians got it

--one state of province at a time. Or we could if Obama hadn't slammed the door on states until 2017.

And "Democratic" CA has had quite a few terms from Reagan and Der Governator.

[quakerboy]

118. What have they done to achieve that kind of majority?

I havnt seen any sign that they of the administration want an unstoppable majority. They hand away possible victories, they take verbal potshots at their natural allies, they ignore easy moves to improve their chances of winning elections(ie voting reform, AG turnover, etc). They step back from leadership moments to make "practical" backroom deals with republicans who refuse to support them anyway, at a time when voters of every stripe are superiorly suspicious of backroom deals of any type.

You are right about one thing. The only likely winners out of all of it are the Repukes. Our only hope is that their internal issues with the tea party outgrowing its usefullness and becoming an internal threar, along with their natural inclination toward corruption and hypocracy are enough to keep voters at least as disgusted with them.

[FedUp_Queer]

115. How about someone who just tries to fight for something?

Imagine this: Division IAA Appalachian State walks into the Big House at Michigan. "No chance" at winning, right? It should have just said: "We can't win, let's concede the first half to Michigan." They beat Michigan. Obama never even tried. I remember when Obama started running. How in THE hell would this country vote for a Black man with a last name "Obama," a first name "Barack" and a middle name "Hussein?" It'll just never happen. Maybe if he fought as hard for things "that can't happen," we wouldn't be in this mess.

[MsPithy]

108. Every country with "Socialized" health care PAYS LESS

than we pay for our health insurance corporation enrichment system!!!!

http://boingboing.net/2010/01/25/the-cost-of-health-c.html

This chart will take your breath away, took me a while to find USA on the chart.

[YewNork]

131. Republicans always quote the marginal tax rate when saying what Canadians pay

For those who don't know, Canada has a progressive income tax like we have in the US. The more income you have, the rate increases.
The marginal tax rate is the tax on your NEXT dollar income, it's not the tax that you've paid on all your income. But, the GOP makes it sound like Canadians pay 40% income tax. They don't.

[Festivito]

31. Ugh! New Zealand near socialistic HC, horrifying.

I developed a rash after visiting Fiji. Traveling with a couple of medical students they said I should see a doctor to get something for it.

I walked into a doctor's office and had to wait to see the doctor. Some staff people guard the doctors there I guess.

Well, he gave me a script for two cremes and tried to get me to say it was an accident. See, an accident means you don't have to pay in NZ. That way it keeps the lawyers from getting high judgments.

It wasn't, so they CHARGED ME money. I can't recall any longer. Might have been 50 NZ dollars. $35 bucks is what my doc back in Detroit would charge me for a visit.

The Canadian medical students I traveled with called it the buckshot approach. He didn't know what it was so he gave me medicine for a variety of things it might be.

I cleared up entirely, but, I'll never forget that horrible close call to being near socialism for people who have accidents.

[woo me with science]

33. You ingrates.

My unemployed relative sat in a US emergency room for TWO HOURS, refused all recommended scans and treatment except a fluid IV and an anti-nausea pill (because she couldn't afford it!), and she paid 2000 American dollars for the privilege!

YES, she is insured!

And she was GRATEFUL, DAMMIT, because it was an AMERICAN ER!!!!!!!

[Ignis]

37. K&R

Very effective. :thumbsup:

[iamthebandfanman]

40. OMG U MEAN IT HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS?!

look
nobody is saying canada is perfect, but compared to here its Godly.

instead of finding the few faults in canadas system , why not look at all the faults in ours?

i promise youll be begging for what they have.

[tkmorris]

45. Really?

The OP's criticism of Canadian health care was tongue in cheek. He/she actually likes it. A lot.

[flyarm]

43. I just got my new monthly bill for my health insurance, $2,500.00 a month!

I have a real good feeling your Canadian relatives would not want to switch with me!

Oh and my Husband is retired and we only pay 1/3, our Union pays the other 2/3rds!
The $2,500.00 per month, is our portion !

I have lived in Canada for portions of 22 years, and I would trade places with them any day!

Oh I also have many many Canadian friends, not one of them would give up their health care ! NOT ONE!

Is their system perfect? No, but ours is worse , much much worse!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. If you're paying $2500 a month, that's $30,000 a year

You could get an awful lot of medical treatment for that. Not a real emergency, but unless you have serious health issues that require continual hospitalization, you'd be better off going "naked" than paying $30,000 a year.

[vaberella]

67. Can you brfing this in to your local congressman and show them?

I mean I think this needs to be met again. I figured this bill wasn't the first step in health care reform. Obama and co have been adding changes to the bill and your story could push for something new in future. Although it's also true that the full function of the HCR bill hasn't been met either.

[Thav]

107. Holy wow

So essentially $7500/month is your total PREMIUM?

That's almost twice the median income of the working american.

That plan better be a Cadillac plan, and not just any caddy, one that is made of solid platinum and diamonds, runs on toxic waste and emits rainbows and sunshine out of the tail pipe. My guess is that gets you a $50 co-pay, 35% co insurance and a $15,000 deductible.

[uponit7771]

44. +1

[TrogL]

46. Reminds me of some of my visits

The pop machines are way too expensive

[golfguru]

47. Why are the Canadiens trying to downsize their healthcare system?

I have actually good idea why...they are short of funds.
Same problem in UK.
There just is no really good solution to the healthcare conundrum.

The US system is expensive as hell. My wife had to have
emergency gall bladder surgery. She went Thursday evening into the hospital.
DIscharged Saturday evening. The bill? $34,000. Fortunately we have
insurance so it cost less than $1000 out of pocket.

[Kdillard]

49. Unfortunately I think very few people on this thread will hear you.

[Hissyspit]

73. Both Canada and Britain have right-wingers in control or dominating right now.

It is in their political interest to let the system go into crisis.

[mwooldri]

90. Except vast majority of people in UK like the NHS an awful lot.

If the NHS is broke by the Con-Lib coalition government, Labour would be back in government in no time, and the Lib Dems decimated, along with major Conservative Party support haemmoraging.

[Hissyspit]

109. They don't want to break it. They want to transform it.

[mwooldri]

144. Whoever gets in the driving seat ALWAYS wants to change the NHS.

Doesn't matter if it's Conservative or Labour or a coalition. Politicians will be meddling with the NHS forever. However if it results in really crappier healthcare for everyone, expect the nurses *and* the patients to go out on strike and go on demonstration in Central London right down in Westminster.

People are pretty protective of the NHS. Even in Toryland.... when a health trust was considering shutting down a hospital in a three hospital cluster because all three of them weren't big enough, there was a whole almighty demonstration (with good cause) - because if any one of those three hospitals considered for closure did happen to close, it would mean that ambulances would not get access to an A&E department (emergency room) fast enough and have an awful long trip to get there.

Even when it came to the local village hospital in my "hometown" - the health trust wanted to shutter that one too... but the hospital supporters got together and forced the health trust to keep it open through the court system. The trust said the facilites were getting too old and the hospital needed to close and be redeveloped for a nice big new health centre... so the hospital supporters said "We agree. Here is a new site you can build that health centre on... plus a brand new hospital too, and we'll raise the money to build it for you". Yes, deep in the heart of Toryland, in a part of the country where housing is so expensive you have to be a rock star to afford a new house, the people are willing to organise a charity fundraiser for a brand new hospital and health centre ... and actually achieve the fund raising goals. A new village hospital complete with health centre will be built on the village-purchased site.

Mark.

[Hissyspit]

74. Because they have right-wing leadership right now?

It cost YOU $1,000. Other Americans, it would have destroyed them financially. Of course it is expensive, which is why we need leaders who know how to administrate it and don't have ulterior motives in letting it get out of hand. The world-wide economic crisis was caused by the Right-wing, and the Right-wing government in Canada has ideological interest in downsizing the system.

[rationalcalgarian]

86. But we're not....

A right-wing government is. It won't be around much longer.

[jpak]

52. I lived and worked in Canada and i can say with 100% certainty that

it is 1000% BETTER than the US system

yup

[Pathwalker]

53. Two and a half-hour wait to see the eye doctor this morning,

during which the drug rep showed up and stayed for half an hour. When she left, I commented on her presence to the nine other patients waiting, which pissed them off too. When I finally saw her, she apologized for the delay - and gave me a free sample. My co-pay will probably be about $78.00.
Does that make me "drug addled"? I think I'd prefer Canadian style health care, despite it's "obvious limitations". HA!

[jgraz]

54. Many Canucks and Brits are unhappy with their healthcare system

until you ask them if they'd like to adopt ours...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. In the summer of 2008, I read an article in the Guardian that 800+ Brits

and foreign residents of the UK responded to. I didn't have any work that day, so I read all 800+ comments about the NHS.

The vast majority of comments were favorable, and almost all the people who DIDN'T like the NHS said that they preferred one of the other European or the Canadian or Australian systems. ONE person (count him, ONE) said that he preferred the American system, but the reason he gave was that he was a medical specialist and could make more money here. By the way, some of the comments were from Brits who had lived in the U.S. or Americans who had lived in the UK. Both groups preferred the NHS to the American system.

[FiveGoodMen]

55. Gibbs thinks it's a joke that we would want something like that here

(We all need to recognize the enemy when he speaks)

[ibegurpard]

56. I was about ready to blast you

good post

[hay rick]

57. K&R

[Spheric]

62. K&R God, if only we could complain like that instead of complaining that we are left to die.

Imagine how good our health care would be.

:patriot:

[bvar22]

68. Some Seniors complain about Medicare...

But jut TRY and take it away from them!

[Enthusiast]

70. Some Canadians obviously do

not understand how well they have it.

[Enthusiast]

72. I recently went to a doctor in Ohio,

a specialist. A single visit was $500. After several visits he never did diagnose the problem. He only treated the symptoms. I had the distinct impression that he wanted me to return again and again so he could make more money. Finally my wife diagnosed the problem and we have been employing our own remedy since.

I could go on and on about my own medical problems and very expensive yet poor medical care but I won't bother.

[ThoughtCriminal]

84. "You have to be on drugs" to want a system like that

Or need affordable medical care of any kind.

[treestar]

94. No, and that's not what Gibbs said

You have to be on drugs to think it will happen with the Congress we elected.

[arikara]

88. What were the bills for?

We have no copay in BC. The Mr has been a frequent visitor to the hospital over the years. The only thing we've ever had to pay for was the TV rental. It goes for something like $12 a day now I think. And of course everyone bellyaches about that.

[treestar]

92. We can't have that here for a long time

It'd be nice and I wish we could, but our political system and the voters we have mean it will be a very long time. In the meanwhile, we have just made some progress.

[DeSwiss]

93. I don't see how your family made it through with hospital bills.....

...of that magnitude to deal with. Just don't tell Bobby Gibbs or he'll use it to bash the Professional Left again!

- K&R!

[artfan]

95. I honestly have great insurance for the US but

still pay a lot in copays and the pain of referrals is depressing at times my son and I have crohn's disease and my husband cancer. Both my and my sons referrals 'expired' so we now need to get new ones so we can continue with our gastro. doctors if not there will be a billing nightmare. I also expect to get a bill for my sons recent hospitalization of six weeks to arrive any day. It is not much when compared to what other people have to pay but is still a struggle. I can not imagine what those who are not insured go through.

[OmahaBlueDog]

96. I don't doubt that Canadian Health Care has nightmare stories, but at least they all have something

(and, yes, I caught the sarcasm of the post)

Plenty of people here can tell you HMO stories - HMOs can give lessons on rationing healthcare.

I have a nephew with no healthcare and an infected finger. He had to go to several orthos before he could find one who'd take a cash patient with no insurance.

Or Medicaid - the lock-the-barn-after-the-horse-has-left plan. Maybe if we had a plan where people het treated up front, they don't need to go to the ER or Hospital later.

[riverbendviewgal]

97. I am American born but Canadian by choice.

Today I went for pre op for my colonscopy and Gastrophy...I am having both at once. I had xrays, blood test, urineand EEG test today and instructions on how to take the flushing medicine prior to the procedure.
The Medicene - over the counter - cost $20.00...Everything else NOTHING.

When I am sick I go to the clinic my doctor belongs to. If he is not there I see one of the other doctos. And I live in rural Northern Ontario, where there is a shortage of doctors.
Whenever I need tests, I get them, usually the same day or a couple days later.

My son was 25 when diagnosed with GlioBlastma Multiforme Brain Tumor.
He had 3 brain surgeries, chemo, radiation, emergency room visits from seizures. xrays, Ct scans, MRIs, blood tests and 6 weeks in intensive care after his 3rd operation and 1 week in the hospital Palliative care.

His dad was diagnosed 2 months after our son and was told he had Non Hodgkin's lymphoma. He had surgery, ultra sound, CT scan, MRIs, blood transfusions, stem cell transplant and then chemo which he was in hospital 30 days. He also had radiation.
and several types of chemo. He was in the hospital palliative care for 3 months.

The cost of their treatments: NOTHING.

What are American's afraid of?
My NJ brother says he doesn't want to pay for anyone else's health care, especially for the Mexicans in emergency rooms. His daughter who works for the Industrial Military aero industry says she doesn't care about anyone else. She doesn't want her health care to go up. She says this does not sound emphatic but that is how she feels.
America has death panels...They are their health insurance companies.

I pay 24 percent in income taxes, federal and provincial together. I didn't go bankrupt when my son and husband had to go through their treatments. Canadians really think America is very, very weird at how they are afraid of one payer health insurance.
In Canada we can go to the doctor when we feel sick and also go annually for a physical to make sure we are well without being denied for previous conditions or it costing an arm and a leg.

I just remembered when I had to get an MRI, There are no machines in my town so I had to drive 200 kilometres to the hospital there who had one. The government paid for part of my gas and also my motel room.

Canada I stand on guard for thee, I love my country. It is humane and caring.



I feel so sorry for America. I sure made the right choice when I came to live in Canada.

[Lifelong Protester]

106. And some of us may be joining you there...if they'll have us.

[JJ]

98. LOL, I was about to unload on

looked like a paid propagandist post from the subject line.

[obxhead]

99. I would LOVE to suffer those outrages. nt

[proReality]

102. Yeah, one of my Canadian friends isn't happy with the system there either.

She had to wait 2 days to get her father into a nursing home. It's really a shame they have to wait so long up there.

[Loudmxr]

103. They are just lucky they don't live in Britain where they would also deal with Britrail.

There is an example of the decline of Western Civilization for ya! Used to be able to get a train any time night or day from Bolton to Notlob! Can't anymore!!

[leftstreet]

110. K&R

[nilram]

111. k'd, r'd, AND bookmarked!

:7

[irislake]

114. Not this grateful Canadian!

I went to emergency at a hospital because I could hardly walk across the room. Had the lowest haemaglobin anybody had ever walked into emerge with. Doctors did a chest Xray right in emerge admitted me and did six or seven tests in nuclear medicine first thing in the morning. Cancer everywhere, lungs, liver, bones and so on. Started to give stuff away and thought I would be sent to palliative care. My kids said, Hold on! Its treatable. (Non Hodgkins Lymphoma).

I was admitted Jan 2nd and left hospital March 19th. The cost of my treatment and stay staggers my imagination. My one complaint. I could not eat. It made me nauseated to smell food. They tried everything (including putting feeding tube down my throat) everything but marijuana -- which I asked for. After I had lost 50 pounds and a lot of muscle and had not improved a friend brought in an illegal drink of marijuana and some marijuana cookies. Amazing results. I began to eat immediately and never stopped.

After I started to eat the chemo began to work and when I left hospital I had only a few tiny and shrinking spots on my liver. I became an out-patient and had three or four more chemo treatments. The last on August 4th was just in case because all tests showed I was completely cancer free. I drove home (two hour drive) to where I live in the country and a nurse has come to my house every day for a week to give me shots to boost my white blood cells.

All done now and see my oncologist mid-September and every three months after that.

I paid NOTHING. The cost of the drugs was just WOW. But I did not have to pay one red cent. Even the illegal marijuana was free thanks to kind friends.

I know a few malcontents who gripe and complain about our health care in Canada. I AM 100% grateful.

But think how much the hospital would have saved if they had got me eating sooner. I was in there a month longer than was really necessary.

I figure they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to prolong the life of an old duck who will celebrate heartily when I turn 72 next month. Nobody thought I would make it!

Whoopee! I love Canada!

[joe black]

140. Great story

Way to fight.

[Shining Jack]

116. K&R

Some people can complain about the sky being blue.:D

[INdemo]

122. If we had insurance like the Canadian system we would not have a need for insurance companies

There would not be multimillion dollar salaries for the Insurance CEO's or bonuses or billion dollar profits..We saw what happen with the insurance company's multimillion dollar campaign to defeat real health care reform..For the US to ever hope for a system like our northern neighbors is just a dream

[Thav]

146. Your subject line

is what scares the everloving hell out of republicans. No medical insurance companies making billions in profit a year? That's what truly made them wake up screaming in the middle of the night.

[YewNork]

123. The Republicans would put the sister's story in this context:

(Start gloomy sounding music and speaking in a serious but sad voice)

"When this woman was diagnosed with life threatening Melanoma, the most deadly form of skin cancer, Canada's socialized government run medical system told her that she had to wait before she could have that cancer removed."

Canada's system works fine, and Canadians wouldn't trade it for the US system for anything, not even lower taxes.

[drm604]

132. Robert Gibbs, I hope you're reading this.

You're right, we won't be satisfied till we have Canadian style health care.

(And for the record, I do not want to eliminate national defense. There may be a few extremist pacifists who do, but most of us live in the real world and understand that defense is a necessity. Being opposed to a specific war or wars is not the same as wanting to "eliminate the Pentagon". PLEASE stop using right-wing straw men. It DOES NOT help the President or Democrats in general. It DOES help Republicans.)

[Billy Burnett]

147. Kick for Robert Gibbs.

:kick:

[penndragon69]

134. $ 212,000.00 dollars later.

And i am still going through the hell that is the American CORPORATE health
scare system.

I'd give my right (and maybe even my left) wall nut for that kind of misfortune.

Give me Single payer or give me death.

[Overseas]

136. K&R! //nt

[OnlinePoker]

137. I wish my brother had the same experience

After showing symptoms for 9 months, he was given a colonoscopy in Oct 09 which showed cancer. After further tests and chemo to shrink the tumor, he finally had surgery in May and is still doing post op chemo now. Sure it didn't cost him anything, but the worry of not knowing for 8 months after the initial diagnosis stressed both him and his family needlessly.

Do we want the U.S. style health system in Canada? No, of course not. But I should have the right to spend my own money for medical care should I choose to get treated in my own community, not in another country. It would be a win/win for the health care system as I'm not burdening it with the expense of my treatment and takes me out of the queue to allow someone less fortunate quicker access there. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I look at it that we only have one life and if we aren't allowed to access the best possible care that is a travesty.

[Beacool]

148. A few years ago I burned myself with hot water right before flying to France to visit my brother.

I was draining some spaghetti at home and my hand slipped and the boiling water fell on my left side. In a couple of spots I had 2nd degree burns (luckily there's no scar left). I traveled anyway and my sister-in-law took me to her doctor. She checked me out and prescribed what she called "the best ointment for burns that they sold in France". The doctor went to her computer and sent the prescription to the pharmacy, along with a request for gauze and surgical tape (to keep the gauze in place). By the time my sister-in-law and I got to the pharmacy the items were bagged and all ready to go. My cost? 0.

Vive la France!!!

:D

BTW, burns are the worst kind of pain to experience. I think that I would rather be shot than burned again. No amount of saline solution can minimize the pain. If anyone has been burned, I recommend vitamin E oil to make the scars fade. Mine have disappeared completely.

:-(

[JNelson6563]

150. Quite something.

If something were to happen to me, melanoma for instance, I would not be able to do a thing about it besides die eventually. I have no money and no insurance so I get no healthcare. I guess some in the good ol' USA feel that is how it should be.

Julie

[ProgressOnTheMove]

151. Yep, some nations don't know hw lucky they are.