Confederate War Memorials

[jberryhill]

Why do we tolerate THAT shit?

[Wilms]

1. I figured someone was eventually gonna ask that. n/t

[niyad]

2. or a wal-mart at gettysburg?

[Aristus]

3. Who the hell knows?

I'm a descendant of Confederate soldiers, something I'm not the least bit proud of, by the way. And even I don't know...

If you were to ask one of these Confederate flag-waving types if we should put up a memorial to soldiers who seized American property and fired on Federal troops, they'd no doubt say, "No F*****G WAY, man! We're Amerikkkans! We don't do that shit!" And totally never get the point... :eyes:

[MrsBrady]

4. so if I have an ancester who fought in the confederacy, should I be damned?

I have confederate and union....and English and Irish...and Native American lineage.

I appreciate my lineage, even if I don't like how every body behaved.

I have ancestors that had land claims that used to be Indian land of people who also were my ancestors.
Whom do I celebrate, whom do I condemn? I wouldn't be me without both peoples.

The Confederacy is part of our history.
We should learn about it. Study it, understand it.

celebrate it? Not so much. It perhaps is a thin line.

I wouldn't want history swept under the rug.
We have to be honest about our past.

Is it a war memorial to celebrate the confederacy or to celebrate history...the people (good and bad) and what it represents for all of us?
Depends on how you look at it.

[jberryhill]

11. So do I

And, my father from North Carolina having married a war bride, I have relatives who fought for Hitler. Should I honor their fight against the US too?

[Bitwit1234]

21. You are correct.. I have also said and

just because some men during the War Between the States fought for the south, doesn't condemn them forever. It was either show up for duty or get shot for desertion. My great grandfather and great great uncles fought in the war. I am proud of them. They didn't own slaves, they didn't believe in slavery. And some black men fought with them.Are we going to cast out the military that fought in the Iraq and Afgan wars. We know those wars were wrong, but the brave military followed their leaders orders. I think being so prejudiced against veterans of the Confederacy is just plain stupid.

[Kaleva]

5. By law and custom, those who served the Confederacy are considered...

US veterans.

[JustAmused]

8. Thank you.

Thank you for pointing that out. Not many know that, and on DU not many would approve of that. I have been a member here for many years, but seldom post largely because of some of the extreme anti-southern prejudice I find here.

[jberryhill]

13. Yeah, well, tell that to the "prosecute Bush and Cheney" contingent

Jeff Davis got a book tour and Lee got a University presidency.

One of my Confederate ancestors got yellow fever in a Union prison and died.

The shit always floats, don't it?

[CTLawGuy]

20. wow

commit violent insurrection against your own country, become a veteran!

[xocet]

24. Does Timothy McVeigh qualify for a memorial?

I don't think so.

[CTLawGuy]

38. nope

although he is a white christian male, so he's a "disgruntled citizen" and not a terrorist, under Republican logic.

[Chemical Bill]

67. Actually, he's a patriot according to a guy at work. n/t

[reformed_military]

25. uh huh

CTLawGuy,

Being a learned man, I am sure you know that at that time it was common belief that States were part of the United States by their free will and were free to leave the Union at any time.

In 1804, the legislature of MA passed an act that said that the Louisiana Purchase was sufficient cause to dissolve the Union.

In 1814, reps from the 6 NE states (your CT being one) assembled and because of their opposition to the war of 1812 with England, they passed resolutions that stated unless the Union changed the way they were fighting the war, they would then attempt to leave the Union.

When a bill was proposed in the house to admit the first state from the Louisiana Purchase, MA Rep Josiah Quincy said,

"It is my deliberate opinion that if this bill passes, the bonds of the Union are virtually dissolved; that the States which oppose it are morally free from their obligations, and that as it will be the right of all, so it will be the duty of some, to prepare definitely for a separation."

Further, in 1845 when Texas was added to the Union, MA said in a resolution that admission of a foreign state or nation was not a power in the constitution and was "an act of admission would have no binding force whatever upon the people of Massachusetts."

I dunno, I think we do a disservice when we attempt to put 21st century hind sight onto complex issues.

[CTLawGuy]

37. wanting/trying to leave the union is one thing

taking up arms against your own country is another.

No New England state made war against the United States. That's the key difference. And CERTAINLY they did not make war for the purpose of preserving their "rights" to enslave an entire race of people. And they MOST CERTAINLY did not wave the same flag, under which they made war, 100 years later as a tacit protest of the civil rights movement.

If the states had the legal right to secede, fine! But attacking your own country is the textbook definition of treason.

And if you feel so strongly about seceding that you commit treason against your own country, then wear the treason label with pride.
But don't expect me, a proud American, to "honor" your treason; especially when it was made to preserve an explicitly racist social order.

[mix]

52. well said...The Confederacy was a political and social abomination. nt

[liquid diamond]

65. I can't believe people on this board coddle these assholes. On

DU of all places! Fuck the confederacy!

[Ter]

44. They broke free

The Union violently forced them back.

[kwassa]

56. Not exactly. The South attacked the North.

Fort Sumter and all that. The Civil Was was started by the southern states in the form of the Confederacy.

[liquid diamond]

64. They were traitors. They picked up arms against their own

country. Today's terrorists don't have shit on them.

[smalll]

6. Because they're history? I have to guess most Confed. war memorials are at least

a century old (most of them, anyway.)

This isn't Stalinist Russia. We don't airbrush our history.

On the other hand, make this into our next crusade! If ONLY Obama would insist on razing to the ground any and every Confederate war memorial in this county! That would be SO popular! :eyes: Especially in this economy! Think of all those extra dynamiters and debris-clearer-awayers we'd get to hire!

[Honeycombe8]

7. That would not be popular, IMO.

The entire south would hate the administration even more than they do now. They would be so angry, it might even drive them to violence. That's how strongly they feel about their history...just as your family feels about its family history, warts and all.

And then there are those who support and revere veterans, no matter the cause. They'd hate the administration for it.

[Sherman A1]

9. I had family serve on both sides of the

Civil War and I suspect anyone who does their family history does as well. It was about our collective story. The monuments exist, have existed for many years and while I don't agree with the cause of the South do not feel they should be removed.

[seattleblue]

10. The Commander in Chief disagrees with you.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/obama-sends-wreath-confederate-memorial-arlington-cemetery

[jberryhill]

12. Woop de flippin' doo

Yeah, he fires gay service members too.

I imagine we disagree on quite a few things.

[seattleblue]

14. I disagree also

Just pointing out it is not some fringe movement.

[jberryhill]

17. Yes, it is quite mainstream for the President to honor soldiers who fought against the US then

While shitcanning soldiers fighting for the US today.

Honor, duty, etc.

[JVS]

35. If you really want to piss off some people make a memorial for the gay soldiers of the confederacy.

[npk]

60. If it bothers you this much you should write Obama

I've heard that really gets the ball rolling.

[JVS]

34. It wouldn't be the first time that Obama has been wrong about something.

[proteus_lives]

15. Because the Union won and it's what Lincoln would want us to do.

"...with charity to all."

The Civil War was not, is not and will never be a black and white issue.

[jberryhill]

16. I see...

So, on the relative scale of things, how would you rate, say, George Bush or Dick Cheney versus Jefferson Davis?

[proteus_lives]

18. I wouldn't compare at all.

Separated by too many issues, factors, reasons, situations and far too much time.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arkansas Granny]

22. 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana.

Like it or not, the Civil War is part of our history as a nation. The memorials are a tribute to the soldiers who fought and died in that war.

[sybylla]

23. You've been hijacked. Too bad, too.

You make a great point about conservative fuckwit hypocrisy, and almost right away it's cast as southern hatred and you're attacked as ignorant.

Some days it just doesn't pay.

[jberryhill]

28. Win /nt

[Solomon]

32. As I read through the post, I was amazed at how many missed

the point of the post. Finally, somebody gets it. LOL

[ieoeja]

47. I was beginning to think I was the only one. Glad to see two more who got the point. (nt)

[niceypoo]

26. Because it is part of American history

When you 'wont tolerate' history, you end up like the GOP in a hermetically sealed propaganda bubble.

[Beacool]

27. You must be joking...............

:eyes:

[jberryhill]

29. Can I build a mosque near one? /nt

[Rowdyboy]

30. In a country where gays are 2nd class citizens, racial minorities are

routinely crammed into 3rd rate schools, kids are dying needlessly in Afghanistan, a majority of the Supreme Court thinks corporations are people, the Gulf is stinking with oil, homelessness is rampant and congressional Democrats are about to take their biggest hit since 1994 one has to prioritize.

Frankly, I don't worry much about a few shabby memorials which are mostly located in states no one gives a shit about anyway. If you choose to work yourself up over this particular "issue" knock yourself out. Everybody needs something to focus on I suppose.

[Perky]

31. They do not memorialize the war, they memorialize the dead drom the community

[JVS]

33. We shouldn't. Those traitors deserve nothing but scorn.

[mix]

53. +1 000 000 nt

[liquid diamond]

66. Thank you. I wonder if Germans celebrate fallen

Nazi soldiers. It's part of their history after all! :sarcasm:

[provis99]

36. we could at least get rid of statues of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

why the fuck do we have statues throughout the South honoring the asshole principally responsible for expanding the Ku Klux Klan from a terrorist fraternity club to a nationwide anti-American hate group?

[krispos42]

39. Probably because the Civil War was an actual war

It wasn't a guerilla operation. It wasn't a bunch of leaderless people killing off the legitimate government and declaring themselves a separate nation after the got tired of the nobles raping their daughters.

The 11 states of the Confederacy organized, their governments withdrew from the US but continued functioning on the state level and with the new CSA national government. No state capitols were razed, no legislatures dissolved. Elected leaders were not lined up and shot en masse.

The Confederacy organized a new national government and all that entails, e.g., taxes, tariffs, treasury, military, courts, and elections.

And the war that was fought was conventional. Uniformed troops waving flags and meeting on the battlefield. Generals playing by the rules of war. Supply trains, logistics, drafts, standard-issue equipment, war production, communication, intelligence.

The Confederate soldiers that fought were not part of a drug cartel. They weren't fighting over a natural resource, or ethnically cleansing a region. They weren't radicals being driven by some political or economic idealology, nor were they driven by some theology.

And in the states were the Confederate flag flew, there was no internal dissent. It wasn't that the entire USA was dissolving into war, with most of the pro-union forces in the North and the pro-secessionist forces were in the South. Everybody in the South supported sucession, and everybody in the North opposed it. And the relative handfuls of people that held the opposing popular view in the regions were not up in arms over it.

I feel that is probably the reason this goes on. Doubtless after the war, many people in the South felt that they were an occupied souvereign nation, and as soon as the states were fully admitted back into the Union they took advantages of the freedoms Americans have and erected monuments to their fallen soldiers.


I can understand why they did it; I can understand why we should preserve those memorials as objects of historic interest. I cannot understand, however, being particularly proud of it.

[jberryhill]

40. Very good points /nt

[krispos42]

41. Jeez, I think I killed the thread! n/t

[Cleobulus]

46. How more wrong about the civil war can you be?

First off, the state governments that did secede did so in a staggered way, it wasn't organized on a "confederate" level at all. South Carolina was first. It was relatively orderly in most instances, however the Confederate States didn't have all the trappings of a proper federal government for most of the time it existed either, for example no Supreme Court even though it was established by the Confederate Constitution. The elected leaders weren't lined up and shot because the secession was lead by those very elite. Not to mention that the Confederate States also claimed states from the Union that never seceded, the so called Neutral states.

The Confederate soldiers that fought were not part of a drug cartel. They weren't fighting over a natural resource, or ethnically cleansing a region. They weren't radicals being driven by some political or economic idealology, nor were they driven by some theology.

Yes and no, some of them possibly fought for theology, but they all did fight over an economic ideology, they were duped into fighting to preserve the slave economy for plantation owners, even though the vast majority of them could never own slaves.

And in the states were the Confederate flag flew, there was no internal dissent. It wasn't that the entire USA was dissolving into war, with most of the pro-union forces in the North and the pro-secessionist forces were in the South. Everybody in the South supported sucession, and everybody in the North opposed it. And the relative handfuls of people that held the opposing popular view in the regions were not up in arms over it.

First off you made two contradictory statements back to back, either both sides had internal dissent or they didn't, in addition, especially in the Neutral states, this dissent manifested itself quite violently for both sides. There were draft riots in places such as New York where quite a few people thought that the Union should have just let the Confederacy go. Oh, and where did West Virginia come from again?

In addition there was partisan and guerrilla fighting particularly in the border states, it wasn't always a "stand up and shoot" war of generals and armies.

"A constant in Civil War Appalachia was the prevalence of partisan violence. Throughout this region, loyalists, secessionists, deserters, and men with little loyalty to either side formed organized bands, fought each other as well as occupying troops, terrorized the population, and spread fear, chaos, and destruction. Military forces stationed in the Appalachian regions, whether regular troops or home guards, frequently resorted to extreme methods, including executing partisans summarily, destroying the homes of suspected bushwhackers, and torturing families to gain information. This epidemic of violence created a widespread sense of insecurity, forced hundreds of residents to flee, and contributed to the region's economic distress, demoralization, and division."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_American_Civil_War

You seem to think this was a war between gentlemen who fought for "higher ideals" or some other bullshit, no offense but that is complete bullshit, it was war, it was nasty, ugly, in a few instances you couldn't tell who was doing what, and by the end hundreds of thousands were dead on both sides, and for what, "state rights"? I hate this romanticism of war in general and romanticism of the Civil War in particular.

[martymar64]

51. Here in Texas, many German settlers were pro-Union

and there was violence against them for this stance. Many of them were lynched for trying to go North to join the Union army.

[Cleobulus]

58. And here in Missouri it was bushwackers and irregulars fighting each other...

most of them Missourians on both sides, my ancestors were Germans who settled in St. Louis and fought for the Union.

[suzie]

61. There were anti-secessionists in all the southern states and I believe that the fire-breathing

South Carolinians were anxious to get secession over with, as they were afraid that the other states lacked their fervor to secede and the Confederacy wouldn't happen.

For those who have Confederate war veteran ancestors, if you feel strongly that the Confederacy shouldn't be glorified, you need to make a request that no Confederate flag be placed on the graves on Confederate Memorial Day.

[ieoeja]

48. Ignoring the fact that you, like most, missed the entire point of this thread.

The following is incorrect:

"And in the states where the Confederate flag flew, there was no internal dissent."


A few counties in Alabama (I think) attempted seceding from the state over this. Their attempt was put down through armed conflict. And quite a large number of counties in western Virginia actually succeeded in seceding.

[mix]

54. They weren't driven by ideology?

Then what is your definition of fighting to preserve a political and socio-economic system based on slavery and white supremacy?

[rasputin1952]

42. A few years ago, my son and I went back East, on our return trip...

we stopped at Antietam and Gettysburg. I told my son what had happened on both of these fields, and he was deeply impressed. While we stood at The Angle on the Federal line just short of the famous "copse of trees" I described to him what had taken place on this field, the South Carolinians had made it over the wall, they were pressing toward the trees and if reinforcements had followed up, the battle might have been different. On the spot where we stood, a Confederate had pinned a Federal to the ground with his bayonet. Much to the horror of both when they looked into each others eyes, they saw that they were brothers, divided by the war, each had chosen his stand, but to find each other in this situation was the very meaning of horror. Th e Confederate was clubbed with a musket and fell next to his brother. After the battle, the Confederate was taken prisoner, the bayoneted Federal was taken to a dressing station. Both survived the war, and died within hours of each other on 3Juy1912, 52 years to the day when they had met on the field of battle.

A small group had gathered while I was telling this story, and I continued on with things that happened that day and how it was a foregone conclusion the Federals would win the battle, particularly because the Picket-Pettigrew charge, (actually more like an advance), wasted so many men over open ground and attacking a fortified position. After some 20 minutes I was done explaining that part of the field, my son asked me, "who were the bad guys?" I told him that all those fought that day were Americans, men fought for various reasons, but even though the South had seceded Lincoln considered them Americans when others did not. No man has the right to own another, no state can override the Constitution, a covenant was broken, but the soldiers and sailors of the South were as every bit American as their brothers from the North. Had Lincoln lived, his plan was to bring the South back into the Union with the least amount of problems; help them get back into production and move on. When Booth killed Lincoln, he doomed the South to 50 years of second class status. He prolonged the suffering of an already decimated South. If there was a true enemy of the nation, he arrived at Ford's Theater and snuffed out any hope the South would be welcomed back.

Secession was bad, slavery was a horror, both should never have happened, but they did. Every man, woman and child that lived through that era were Americans. Some fought for reasons I could never fight for, (preserving slavery in any form being the first and foremost). Today, 145 years after the end of that conflict, we still dig to find out what had happened, how people of that era thought and what they lived, and died for. I do know one thing that came from that war, other than the demise of slavery...

Before the Civil War, the nation was "the United States", after it, we became "The United States, that simple change in diction changed the way we would be known for all time.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. Excellent but one point is off

Not every man woman and child were Americans.

I come from the 'asset' in the ledger of 'being just 2/3 a person' - as 2/3 a person - it's kind of difficult to read that Ms. Gracie (my one black ancestor that was actually IN Slavery in AL) was a human being.

She was a 'thing' to the average northerner and southerner alike and a victim of both.

[rasputin1952]

45. I agree...sadly, people thought of others as property...

we still have some of that today. However, I use "American" broadly, we are such a society that has never been seen in world history...we are an amalgamation of so many different aspects. We are a bit difficult to pigeonhole.

If I would have been alive back then, I would have worn a blue uniform and fought for two things, preservation of the Union, and the end of slavery, and in that order. If the Federals had failed, in the first, the second would have been moot.

[AlinPA]

62. Good post. Small disagreement, it was the North Carolinians that made it to the "High

Water Mark" at Cemetery Ridge.

[TheKentuckian]

49. I'm not sure that monuments to treason should have ever been permitted.

The Confederacy should have been more fiercely prosecuted and we'd have less of this mess now.

The Confederates desperately needed to be broken in addition to beaten on the battlefields.

Instead they got sharecroppers, monuments, relative honor, and to continue their way of life and mastery of their fellow citizens.

[polmaven]

50. Yes..

This has brought to my mind the question of why so many of the (R)s now yelling so loudly against the Community Center had no problem whatsoever displaying the confederate flag at the tops of statehouses.

[mitchum]

55. What do you have against second place trophies?

[olegramps]

57. Your stance on key noral issues has nothing to do with your ancestry.

It takes men and women who have the courage of their convictions to rise above the easy road of compliance and acceptance of the peers' approval. Isn't that exacting what we are experienceing to today with the Republicans who rather than putting welfare of their nation first are only concerned with appeasment of their radical racists, homophophic, pseudo-Christian constituency?

[npk]

59. There is also a Japanese WWII memorial in DC

What would you like to do about that?

[MikeW]

68. thats for Japanese Americans who fought against Japan NOT for japanese soldiers

[tourivers83]

63. War y'all what is it good for?

Most historians agree that Union soldiers outnumbered Confederates three to one. 25 percent of Southern Males were killed or injured. Cities like Atlanta were purposely burned to the ground. It took almost one hundred years for The South to recover fully and yet this has been one of the most loyal parts of America supplying large numbers of men who have died in Americas wars, both just and unjust. And this War like all wars was about money and the ruling class. To say otherwise is just delusional.

[Old Troop]

69. The US Civil War may be the only war in history where the losers wrote the history.

President Wilson gave a very flattering speech to Confederate veterans when they met in Washington in 1917.