Sometimes Democrats just can't help themselves (should have deferred on the Mosque as a local issue)

[depakid]

which what it is- a land use planning matter.

Instead, the leaders (Dean, Obama, Reid and others) just couldn't resist.

If I were a Republican strategist, here's how I'd have been be looking at it for the last several months:

[onehandle]

1. That's my favorite Larson cartoon. nt

[ProSense]

2. "If I were a Republican strategist"

Interesting.

[CreekDog]

4. We know that you aren't a Republican strategist

No worries there.

:D

[jefferson_dem]

5. Doth protest a wee bit too much...

Perhaps.

[depakid]

6. It would be nice to think you weren't THAT conceptually impaired

[ProSense]

8. Yeah, advocating that the President hide from defending the Constitution and

suggesting that Republicans set traps are signs of superior intelligence.

[depakid]

10. WOW- I guess sometimes it has to come from the horse's mouth!

I'd say "checkers player" but then I might be accused by someone with a knowledge of history of being a Nixon supporter!

[ProSense]

14. .

Repeat.

[jefferson_dem]

3. Hmmm... I thought you prided yourself as a scholarly fellow...

Constitutionally literate even.

[depakid]

7. It's a land use issue that Dems got suckered into making a shiny wedge issue out of

Quite possible THE single stupidest political move (next to repeatedly insulting the base) on the eve in a midterm (and redistricting) election that I can think of.

No upside at all to it.

[ProSense]

15. It's a land use issue that gave Dems an opportunity to defend the Constitution, and

some of them failed miserably. You are advocating that the loudmouths should have been given the airwaves to deny a group their rights, that Dems should have shut up and allowed it.

[Rowdyboy]

9. Leaders lead...they don't necessarily take the most politically expedient position...

Sorry, have to disagree with you on this one.

Religious liberty is not a local issue.

[depakid]

12. If that's the case- then the President's "clarification" about the wisdom re: siting

can reasonably be considered to be a backtrack or retreat on civil liberties.

The only way to win this game was not to play.

[Rowdyboy]

17. Disagree again....I agree with Obama that they have a right to built a mosque in the vicinity of the

9/11 site or any other place where a church/synagogue/temple can legally be built. That right is implicit in our law.

However, as the president implies, it isn't always the wisest move to exercise a right just because you have it. I have a right to tongue kiss my partner at noon on any street corner in Mississippi but it isn't a particularly smart thing to do (I know its a shitty analogy but I'm too tired to think of a good one).

If governance is a game then you are entirely right-the only way to win is not to play. George Bush and Bill Clinton were games players-both would have avoided the issue in a heartbeat. Obama is trying to be a statesman (ie his continual insane efforts at bi-partisanship with the Republicans). He also is working to improve our image with the Muslim world and backing a moderate like the religious leader in this case is simply his only logical moral choice.

You can't allow moderate Muslims to be humiliated like this and not respond. I think his actions have been responsible-too bad the public is too stupid to think beyond the last Faux news broadcast they've seen. But you can't continually bow down to the ignorant, especially in cases involving constitutional rights and basic fairness to minorities and still call yourself a leader.

[dionysus]

28. impressive backflips.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Don't you usually laud yourself over your progressive principles?

I hope not.

[CreekDog]

13. Frankly, except for Reid (and possibly Obama) I don't actually know that the position is

near as i can tell it's some combination of below:

they have the right, but we wash our hands of pushing that too hard

they have the right, but we wash our hands of whether it's right, but we don't wash them so hard so that we lose Muslim and/or Arabic voters that don't want to feel like we threw them under the bus

they have the right, but if we don't say it JUST RIGHT and NOT TOO HARD MIND YOU, the Republicans will somehow capitalize on that, therefore we will take an incomprehensible position (that the Republicans will spin as whatever they want because we sure as hell don't know...)

[depakid]

16. It's all over the board, isn't it?

Land use planning and permitting is (at least in this case) an open process on the record. Decisions one way or another can be appealed and/or litigated in state and federal court.

That's where the civil rights and liberties angles come into play- through that quaint, old fashioned notion about accountability, due process and the rule of law.

(Not the most popular words among some on this forum for the last 18 months, to be sure- but that's how it plays out, regardless of whatever Dean, Reid and to an extent, the President choose to opine on the matter).

[Aramchek]

18. is that why you abandoned the country? so you could concentrate on local issues?

[Hekate]

20. Ka-zing!

[vaberella]

42. +. Good come back. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

45. +100000

:rofl:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

53. I heard that "snap" all the way over here.

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[dionysus]

63. ...looks like you win.

[Hekate]

19. Defense of the First Amendment is not a "local issue." It may have escaped your notice, but this...

... is blatantly about religious and cultural bigotry. The RWers plus a cohort of DUers want Those People to be gone from the city and from the country. It's been repeatedly asked: How far from the crater is "far enough"? and whenever anyone actually gets pinned down, it turns out that nowhere in the US will do.

Obama is doing the right thing.

By the way, the building in question is going to be a community center. It is not and never was intended to be a mosque.

Hekate

[depakid]

21. "it is not and never was intended to be a mosque. "

There you go- yet another reason why it was beyond foolish to step into the trap on a local planning issue.

And Obama is not "doing the right thing" (indeed, it's hard to tell with his "wisdom" clarification what he's doing at all). Trying to have it both ways again, from the looks of it.

Every Democratic politician fueling this "controversy" is only aiding Republicans- making a bigger mess of the issue than was already the case with loudmouths hollering on the right.

[smalll]

22. Obama didn't have to say ANYTHING at all --

And when he did, it wasn't even in response to a question from anyone - constituent or journalist.

Instead, Obama and his people, in their wisdom, decided to WRITE A SPEECH bringing up the whole topic, which I'm sure was prepared, vetted and approved with all due care, as all planned pronouncements from a President are. They made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to amble into that dryer in search of that "cat fud" in that speech to the Muslim dinner at the White House.

Forget three-dimensional chess; Obama and his people were only playing ONE-dimensional chess. And not very well!

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

35. Nope- but feel free to try again with the false attribution

[geek tragedy]

38. I fyou examine the views of the poster to whom I responded,

I believe you will agree that you are not part of that poster's crowd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x414416#414902

"He may not really be ready for the job yet.

Speculation continues to mount that, following a bad 2010 midterm result, Biden will be prevailed upon to give up the Vice-Presidency, Obama will appoint Hillary as VP, then resign, allowing her to ensconce herself with the powers of incumbency and win-relection in 2012. Obama will become Hillary's VP upon his resignation as President. I am sure after a term or two as Hillary's VP, Obama will gain the experience and seasoning he needs to run for the Presidency in 2016 or 2020."

[depakid]

39. The point is that no one was calling on Obama to jump headfirst into this

nor were they claiming he "was a coward" for "not standing up" for moderate Islam.

At least until the "clarification."

Republicans live for these divisive wedge issues- because they can't get elected on their policies (even if had any coherent policies to discuss).

[vaberella]

43. Yes they do. And some were bashing him for taking to long on saying something.

Now it's a mistake. For fuck's sake.

[saltpoint]

23. A significant amount of the anti-Center sentiment, not

to say outright squawking and manipulating, was coming from zip codes far from the neighborhoods south of 23rd Street in Manhattan.

"A 'mosque' was being built on 'hallowed ground' in which 'terrorist plots would be hatched' against the good and decent people of the United States" !!!

That's not local chatter. The local redtape had proceeded / was proceeding nicely and in accordance to all local laws and codes, so in a manner of speaking, it was all but beside the point.

Had Obama not offered his comments -- which were Constitutional comments -- and Mayor Bloomberg before him -- the propagandists and manipulators would have gone unanswered. And Obama would have been assailed by his detractors on the left for failing to defend citizens' right to build a community Center in arguably the most diverse city in the nation.

It is not a local issue, past the residual paperwork. It is a global issue, and the President of the United States was quite properly responding.

[karynnj]

24. Excellent commentary - as always

[saltpoint]

25. - - -

:hi:

:hug:

[Jennicut]

29. Damn right it was not merely a local issue. If we cannot address the fact that not all Muslims

are extremists and yet at the same time we tell them to be tolerant of us, what are we? Hypocrites is what many Repubs and some Dems are. This goes beyond a local land use law. Way beyond. Great argument.

[saltpoint]

30. Hi, Jennicut.

And a happy summer's morning to ya!

:hi:

[Jennicut]

32. Thanks!

:)

[Hekate]

58. Well said, Saltpoint.

[saltpoint]

59. - - -

:hi:

(Hekate, I still love that Mead quotation!)

[saltpoint]

27. From the Bloomberg address on the Islamic Center:

- - -

Our doors are open to everyone. Everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it's sustained by immigrants -- by people from more than 100 different countries speaking more than 200 different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here or you came here yesterday, you are a New Yorker.

... Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here.

This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions or favor one over another. The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans if we said no to a mosque in lower Manhattan.

Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.

... Political controversies come and go, but our values and our traditions endure, and there is no neighborhood in this city that is off-limits to God's love and mercy, as the religious leaders here with us can attest.

--NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg

- - -

[Jennicut]

31. Bloomberg put it better then anyone else.

Freedom of religion should not be denied and sets a scary precedent and moderate Muslims should not be treated like terrorists. Period.

[saltpoint]

33. Yep. I'm not ordinarily a huge Bloomberg promoter but

will readily admit he got this one exactly right.

He got the strategy right and the essence of the debate right and the backdrop of New York Harbor right, too.

One of his best moments ever.

Now if only people at the FOX affiliates in Omaha and Dayton are listening...

[depakid]

37. Bloomberg's the mayor! It's his job to consider and add input into these decisions

when they reach a certain level of controversy.

The same isn't true for Reid, Dean... or Obama.

[saltpoint]

57. I believe you're mistaken. It is most certainly their

job. They're leaders. Leaders lead. They did.

If you give Bloomberg's address its most careful reading, you are reading a fair-to-midlin scholar's summary of the point of immigration as a culture-shaping force in the United States generally and through New York Harbor specifically.

The French did not give us that statue for New Yorkers alone. You can be moved by it if you live in Cheyenne or Shiloh or Boise.

The context given the debate by the Mayor is also the history of our culture, comprised of the people who were our forebears. Bloomberg was spot on, and Obama is also spot on.

You are disingenuous to try to draw chalk borders around the range of public figures on universal histories and current issues.

"This land is your land," Woody sings to us, "This land is my land," and his map ran the breadth of the continent. It didn't limit itself to the former Burlington Coat Factory in Lower Manhattan.

[dionysus]

62. funny, the person who always says Obama doen't lead, is mad because he's leading.

:rofl:

[saltpoint]

65. Hi, dionysus. It seems as if Bloomberg and Obama,

and more recently Feingold and Franken in the Senate, have framed the debate in large, old terms. It's a coast to coast sanction for the right of a person to follow his or her own religious belief, whether I ever set foot in that church or mosque or meadow or not. My disinterest -- or even contempt -- has no vote in your right to build a place of worship or attend one built by somebody else.

The Founders made this clear enough, and if he wasn't such a manipulative sack of doo-doo, even Newt Gingrich could understand it.

[dionysus]

66. exactly. i don't understand why there are some who don't understand this concept.

[saltpoint]

68. It does make me grateful for the Boxers and Frankens

and many others lending a cool brow and a good heart to the debate.

I only hope enough people across the country will listen.

What happened to Rosa Parks on that bus happened to every person in the nation, and then in the world. She's an icon not despite her issue being "a local issue," but because of it. The woman paid the same money white folks paid to ride that bus and she was by god going to remain seated where she pleased on its chairs. She did make a strong local point, true. But what a huge gift she gave to every little kid who ever grew up after the Montgomery bus boycott to know what she did, to understand what pressure she knew she'd come under, and still to do the right thing.

And she wound up having more allies around the country than she dreamed.

The most local thing there is is a world event.

[Hekate]

60. Really excellent

[saltpoint]

61. Yes -- he can come through when he wants to

and when he needs to.

The man used to be a Democrat, long ago.

I guess now he's officially independent, but I hope he stays more toward the old Democrat he used to be than the more recent Republican!

[Lucky 13]

34. FAIL. I'm happy our LEADERS are trying to LEAD.

It is not a simple land use planning issue anymore...When there is a large, organized effort of idiots to violate others' constitutional rights because of obvious racism or xenophobia, I believe our national leaders are absolutely obligated to step up and LEAD.

Good on Obama for this one. I was happy to see it.

[depakid]

36. Fail was opening up this can of worms and playing right into Republican hands

Should have just let 'em rant- rather than make it into a national election issue, during a redistricting year- especially sinCe NO ONE'S RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED -and if they are, there's ample recourse through the legal process to vindicate them.

Democrats got played for royal suckers- and they're now running this way and that trying to figure out how to say what they think people want to hear!

[Lucky 13]

40. Listen, I have been pretty critical of Obama lately, but I was proud of him for this.

HE didn't make it a national issue. It was already a national issue.

He decided to show some leadership. Bold leadership. And thank god for it. We have hundreds of talking heads blathering on about how Muslims are degrading our sacred ground. Beating that mantra into the sheeple's heads. To bring a little REASON back to the discussion, he stood up and said, listen folks, as President of these United States, may I remind all of you that we have a constitution.

That is his prerogative to speak out on an already NATIONAL issue. It is his duty to fight for the American people's rights. All of them. Not just white folk or christian folk or straight folk, but "others" too. Maybe especially the "others"... cause so few will.

I just wish he'd do it a little more often and with all of us little "others" out there.

[depakid]

44. They already have the permit!

all they need is financing.

The only one's making noise were the same sorry shouters on the right who've been howling about this for the better part of a year- and no one was paying much if any attention to them.

But they sure are now...

[Lucky 13]

48. There are plenty of things to be upset with Obama about.

This isn't one of them. Seriously.

Just because they have the permit doesn't mean people aren't still fighting this tooth and nail. It doesn't mean the other side isn't using some frightening, threatening rhetoric. It's a scary time to be a Muslim in this country, I imagine.

It's never a bad idea to speak up for the rights of any minority group. from anyone... at any time. I wish we'd see more of it. and this is certainly nothing to be upset at Obama over. I'm proud of him.

[vaberella]

41. It is a local issue, but I see nothing wrong with them speaking on this issue.

It's whatever. I don't see that they hurt anything by their statements.

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. So now you're advocating for political maneuvering & gamesmanship?

What about these "principles" you're always espousing? I have seen Obama bashers twist themselves into pretzels to criticize every move this president makes, but I have to say, at least you're more creative than some. :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Notice the sarcastic use of the Amnesty International logo.

How droll.

[depakid]

56. The politics couldn't be clearer- and the fact that no one's rights are being violated

unlike many of the more histrionic-or equivocal posters who (in this context and others) have little use for legal processes and the rule of law. The group has its permit, if it gets blocked, it has recourse- ultimately to the courts.

It's a local non-issue that Obama and others have made into a national ruckus to their political detriment. Obvious to anyone (except the terminally stupid) that it it was a bad political move.

Dems are fixing to get their asses kicked this fall- and diversions like this are one reason why.

[cottonseed]

49. You thinking this is important tells me a lot about where you're at politically.

[Uzybone]

50. certain issues causes the mask to slip

[Tarheel_Dem]

52. +1

[depakid]

74. Hey- looky, looky a "cleverly" veiled reference

by someone terminally incapably of grasping a point that might interfere with his own idolatry.

[scheming daemons]

51. "Sometimes Democrats just can't help themselves (should have deferred Prop 8 as a local issue)"

If someone said that, you would have been up in their faces about "doing the right thing vs being pragmatic".


Both issues are equal rights issues, and neither are just a "local issue".




You're a first-class hypocrit.

[ingac70]

64. +1

[depakid]

73. Rather than using juvenile insults (which I know you're fond of)

Answer this simple question:

What's keeping them from going ahead with the project?

Anything?

Well, as it happens- yes, a very mundane thing lack of funding.

Not radio howlers nor local planners nor politicians. They can build their center if they want- provided they have the money.

All this jumping on your high horses- and doing political damage was and is for nothing!

The Dems (and self-righteous people here stamping their feet and shaking their fists) at the Limbaugh's and Peter King's The law's on your side!

YOU ALREADY FUCKING WON.

Or at leas you had until Obama et al. took the bait... now who knows what "compromise" might be in the works.

I swear I haven't seen more shallow, mind numbing stupidity over a non-issue- nor more of an inability to keep from cutting off noses to spite faces since Jimmy Carter committed "adultry in his heart."

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. I cannot even begin to imagine anything more important that can be done by making a simple statemen

This is not just a matter of one Community Center with a mosque. There are campaigns against mosques all across America right now.

Right now there is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.

Opposing this hysteria and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands any public figure can take - The consequences of this hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire.

As an article by by Kai Wright in today's edition of the Nation, The Lesson of Mosque-Mania: It's Our Values, Stupid put it - "He has said he isn’t commenting on the “wisdom” of building the Muslim community center, but that’s precisely what we so desperately need him to do. Are we the kind of community that holds religious plurality and freedom at its core or aren’t we? Do we believe immigration enriches our communities or don’t we?..,But a values stance will always trump one that’s focused on “local laws and ordinances” in the American political sphere. And as long as the president and his party avoid taking one, the Republican demagoguery will continue to dominate."

http://www.thenation.com/blog/154081/lesson-mosque-mania-its-our-values-stupid

.

[ibegurpard]

55. disagree

He was right and never should have "clarified" anything. He simply should have said "I stand by my previous remarks."

[Douglas Carpenter]

70. If we don't stop the hysteria soon, bin Laden will score one of his biggest propaganda victories yet

If we don't stop the hysteria soon, bin Laden will score one of his biggest propaganda victories yet

By Gene Lyons

snip:

Regardless of how hard they try to disguise it, if only from themselves, those who would forbid the project express an essentially tribal view of Americanism specifically repudiated by the U.S. Constitution. "Is there any reason to oppose the mosque that isn't bigoted, or demagogic, or unconstitutional?" asks Michael Kinsley. "None that I've heard or read. "Make that two of us. Regardless of motive, it’s all about "prohibiting the free exercise" of somebody else’s religion. The End.

Actually, I’d go further. Are there any arguments against the project that don’t also violate the elementary distinction between "some vs. all" we were all supposed to learn in sixth grade? Nonillegal codemakeRemote('duboard.php?az=html_table')e that I’ve seen. Broadly speaking, the loftier the rhetoric the more craven the appeal to primitive concepts like the collective guilt of the world’s 1.4 billion Muslims for 9/11, a deranged act of mass murder committed by a tiny heretical sect.

snip:

Walking the neighborhood, a New York Daily News reporter recently took note of the Pussycat Lounge, a strip joint two blocks from ground zero, and the Thunder Lingerie and Peep Show. Also Off Track Betting facilities, along with "17 pizza shops, 18 bank branches, 11 bars, 10 shoe stores and 17 separate salons" offering what’s euphemistically called "bikini waxing." Evidently, not everybody understood it was all sacred ground until Republicans decreed it.

Regardless, now that the issue’s joined, President Obama’s stuck with it. Insulting our Muslim allies and giving Osama bin Laden a huge propaganda victory by making the struggle against terrorism appear to be a war against Islam -- exactly as he claims -- would be a strategic disaster.


read the full article on salon.com:

http://www.salon.com/news/ground_zero_mosque/index.html?story=/opinion/feature/2010/08/18/gop_islam_war&source=newsletter&utm_source=contactology&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Salon_Daily%20Newsletter%20%28Not%20Premium%29_7_30_110

[AtomicKitten]

67. Hey ya know what? I'm fine with Pres Obama defending the First Amendment.

It's the right thing to do.

I don't agree with Howard Dean on this but I'm fine with that too.

[DailyGrind51]

69. Bush lost approval following his interference in the "Teri Schiavo" case!

[TheKentuckian]

71. I'm going to strongly disagree with the OP

A basic American principle was reinforced, if we lose on this we have lost much more than an election.

[BeyondGeography]

72. A local issue with global implications

Saying nothing would have been irresponsible and cowardly.

You're wrong.