Why the stagecraft of this speech tonight was important

[scheming daemons]

By graciously calling and mentioning Bush tonight, Obama accomplished a few things....


1. Reminded the American people about Bush in a way that Republicans couldn't accuse him of playing the "blame game". But it reminded the American voter of all the reasons they hated Bush.

2. By being gracious, Obama takes the high road. Any criticism from Republicans will then look twice as bad.


It left Karl Rove with nothing... except to sputter that "Obama shouldn't have given the speech".


There's no nice attack vein the GOP can take here... they spent all day screaming that Bush should get credit... but Obama gave him "credit" in a way that reminded people that Bush took us to war under false pretenses.


It was a brilliant framing. Obama looks Presidential.. highlights a kept promise... and reminds people of all the pain that Bush caused with the Iraq war.


Well done.

[frylock]

1. ..

[IndianaGreen]

3. I call it giving a pass to the war criminal Bush

Over 600,000 Iraqi civilians were killed during the US invasion and occupation, according to the Lancet Report. Over two million Iraqis were displaced and are now living in exile or as refugees in their own country. OVer 4,000 dead GIs and tens of thousands wounded or suffering from PTSD. These are the sort of crimes that demand justice, not a Presidential commendation.

[scheming daemons]

4. For those of us in the reality-based universe...

There was no way that was ever going to happen.


Obama's approval rating would have been in the 20% range if he used his political capital to litigate Bush and Cheney. You think he had trouble getting anything done these two years, it would've been much worse.

[IndianaGreen]

7. I care about the ones coming home in coffins, and the ones that will die

I want the wars to end, all 75 of them!

June 5, 2010

Obama secretly deploys US special forces to 75 countries across world

Tim Reid and Michael Evans, Washington

President Obama has secretly sanctioned a huge increase in the number of US special forces carrying out search-and-destroy missions against al-Qaeda around the world, with American troops now operating in 75 countries.

The dramatic expansion in the use of special forces, which in their global span go far beyond the covert missions authorised by George W. Bush, reflects how aggressively the President is pursuing al-Qaeda behind his public rhetoric of global engagement and diplomacy.

When Mr Obama took office US special forces were operating in fewer than 60 countries. In the past 18 months he has ordered a big expansion in Yemen and the Horn of Africa — known areas of strong al-Qaeda activity — and elsewhere in the Middle East, central Asia and Africa.

According to The Washington Post, Mr Obama has also approved pre-emptive special forces strikes to disrupt terror plots, and has given the units powers and authority that was not granted by Mr Bush when he occupied the White House.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7144445.ece

[KakistocracyHater]

9. no fucking way, not after releasing some imagery from Gitmo etc

1996 W*r Cr1mes Act

[mopinko]

10. a kick for the reality based universe.

please send a map back from there. we can use one.

[jgraz]

13. You know what he would have gotten done in two years?

He would have put the worst war criminals since Nuremberg on trial for the world to see. Instead, he secured his place in history as an accessory after the fact.

[scheming daemons]

20. Hyperbolic b.s. n/t

[jgraz]

22. You just assigned yourself to a whole separate universe and you call *me* hyperbolic?

So tell us, what do you have against bringing war criminals to justice?

[scheming daemons]

26. Nothing at all.. they SHOULD be prosecuted

...but acting like TONIGHT is when you realized they never would be means that you are not part of the reality-based community.


That fact has been known since January of 2006.



Feigning indignation TONIGHT exposes you.



ps. I didn't assign MYSELF to a whole separate universe. I live in the one with many, many, many people who in touch with reality. I assigned YOU, and the few like you who think they were somehow betrayed TONIGHT, to another universe.

[jgraz]

34. Oh, ffs. That is seriously weak.

You want to make up shit about what I'm feigning, knock yourself out. The fact is, I've been posting about Obama's complicity on war crimes since before he took office. And every time, people like you have been there to whine about it.

[scheming daemons]

38. It's a 4-year-old (unwise) decision. Nothing that happened tonight changed anything

Pretending that Obama's speech tonight was some kind of "tipping point" is bullshit, and you know it.

[jgraz]

40. So, what's your statute of limitations on letting war criminals skate?

12 months? 18? A week?

[scheming daemons]

41. You tell me...

I haven't seen you arguing for prosecuting Truman (Korea), JFK (Vietnam), Johnson (Vietnam), Nixon (Vietnam), Reagan (Grenada), Bush I (First Gulf), or Clinton (Bosnia) in my 7 years at DU.


If there's no "statute of limitation" on prosecuting war crimes, where's your "righteous indignation" about JFK/LBJ and Vietnam?




You just took tonight's speech as another opportunity to bash. Nothing related to the speech changed a damn thing.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Five of those Presidents are dead. Poppy Bush had UN sanction in kicking Iraq out of Kuwait

Clinton's war in Bosnia was more problematic. The bombing of the Belgrade power plant in the middle of winter was a war crime. Clinton told a lot of lies about the Balkan war. Nothing was said on who started the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia (it wasn't the Serbs, but the Croats). There was that questionable use of Al-Qaeda trained Chechen fighters to do the US bidding against the Serbs of Kosovo.

[scheming daemons]

54. Please point me to the posts where you called for Bill Clinton to be charged for war crimes

...wait... that would require you to be consistent.


nevermind.

[IndianaGreen]

61. I have mentioned this before going back several years

google is your friend.

[scheming daemons]

65. I stand corrected.

So I'll say this: At least you're consistent.


;-)

[Grinchie]

66. He has no friends now... Not even Google.

[scheming daemons]

67. well.... somebody is reccing this thread

;-)

[IndianaGreen]

68. Yo, I must take leave

I have to go to work!

[jgraz]

46. I love it when you guys defend Bush just so you won't have to admit one shortcoming

of Obama's.

Also, you're delusional about my posting (what else is new?) I didn't even listen to tonight's speech. I responded specifically to your bullshit talking point that nothing would have been accomplished had our Constitutional Scholar President actually chosen to follow the law.

If you'd rather talk to someone else about tonight's speech, feel free. Personally, I couldn't care less about it.

[scheming daemons]

51. Nice deflection and weaseling out of answering the question

You made the point that there should be no "statute of limitations" on war crimes.


If that's how you feel, then you should be asking that every living member of the JFK and LBJ and Nixon administrations who was involved in war planning to be brought to trial.


If there's no statute of limitations, and if all war crimes deserve our utmost outrage and indignation, then you should be screaming for Henry Kissinger and others to be on trial today.



The fact that you avoided answering your own question when called on it tells me all I need to know.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scheming daemons]

59. Yeah... you've been demanding "that very thing"....

Funny thing about DU's search engine, though... it can't find a single post from you in its entire archive where you used the word "Kissinger" before tonight.

[jgraz]

62. You may not realize this, but people have lives outside of DU.

While you've been rising in the ranks of Keyboard Commando, some of us have actually been doing shit in the real world.

You know the "real world", right? You keep reminding us that you live in it. Maybe you should climb out of the basement and have a look around.

[scheming daemons]

71. ..said the guy with 29600+ posts in 6 years

...to the guy with 17300+ in 7 years.


Projection. Look it up.

[Grinchie]

69. Oh man, I see an Earthworm writhing in the sunlight when I read your response

For Christs's Sake, do yourself a favor and quit while you can. What the hell do you think you are agoing to prove by descending into this historical bullshit, and legal foreplay?

War crimes are pretty well defined, and I pretty sure that JFK didn't order "No Holds Barred" prisoner treatment for Abu Ghraib. You got proof they did, or something similar, then be my fucking guest.. Bring it.

The fact is we have photos os the results of Cheney and Bushes war.. Obama has seen them.. In fact, Obama has witheled them from review. We also know a lot of other stuff...

Now piss off fan boy, your DLC/Corporate taint is disgusting.

[scheming daemons]

53. ps. Who are "you guys"?

I represent myself. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else.

You can take your "talking points" snark and shove it up your ass. I'm a poster of one.

[jgraz]

57. Sure you do.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DonCoquixote]

83. let me ask you this

They can only persecute Bush if the people want him persecuted. How would you handle the masses, whipped up by Fox, that would make Bush a martyr. Not saying they should not investigate (which of course, if the first step to persecution) but I can ask what you would do dealing with the people saying "you are just trying to get back at us for Clinton!)

[Grinchie]

63. Bosnia? Families were getting burned and raped, and you want to prosecute Clinton for intervening?

In-Fucking-Credible.

I think the Opportunity to Bash you has presented itself - No holds barred.

History speaks for itself.. JFK Assasinated., Johnson, No Second term. Nixon - Impeached, Reagan - Alzheimers, Plus he closed all the loony bins and sent them out into /YOUR Neighborhood. Bush - Big Daddy..

Your defense by invoking dead presidents is laughable "My 7 years at DU".. That makes you cognizant of Dubya and Obama, no?

[scheming daemons]

74. No... *I* don't want to prosecute Clinton... Mr. jgraz said there's no statute of limitation on....

war crimes.

Please try to keep up.

[Grinchie]

55. Wow, I bet the next thing you'll right is that we're Bitter and will sit in the corner...

While you go celebrate the wonderful achievements that we are told over and over again that Obama has achieved..

I suggest you talk to WndyCty about those talking points... They have perished, and you need a new set.

[Grinchie]

52. We've been exposed for a long time -- You just noticing?

How exactly do you manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time? It's simply intriguing, and begs the listener to poke at you with sharpened sticks.

I think the main message you send is that the rule of law does not aply equally to all people, and you are OK with that. This means that you are just another enabler for the injustices and convenient tinkerings with law and order in your "Universe"

I hope you enjoy your "Universe", which resembles a chaotic Hell of lawlessness and self interest.

[Grinchie]

50. K&R on that -- Instead, he kissed their asses and gave their friends jobs..

Obama is no dummy in that respect.. He has a family to look after, and the Secret Service can't be there ALL the time.

[Grinchie]

48. Wow, a real fortune teller.. 20% huh?

Don't look now, but everything this administration has done is milquetoast, checkbox political stuff that doesn't pass the smell test.

In my circle of Associates Obama was a lame duck in April of 2009...

He continues to fit the role nicely.

[tabatha]

2. agreed

i rec'd but it had been unrec'd

[Clio the Leo]

5. ah .... good point. nt

[applegrove]

6. I realized how much I missed Obama's speeches too. I can't wait for the campaign to start.

[saltpoint]

8. Agree. The President spoke tonight as the First Citizen,

and he has some serious creds to be that First Citizen, unlike his predecessor, who doesn't have serious anything except perhaps psychopathology.

[katandmoon]

17. And yet Obama is content to let his predessor's crimes stand.

[saltpoint]

30. You're welcome to lead the charge in the court rooms,

katandmoon, although you're terribly busy as it is, berating the president at every turn on this site.

Seriously. You could bring the suit yourself if you thought it would do any good. So do it.

[katandmoon]

36. I didn't run for president and swear to uphold the Constitution. Obama did.

[saltpoint]

80. Ah, but he made it clear in his campaign in the

literature and speeches that 'We the People' meant everybody, not just the authority figures.

You want to slam the guy, as you perpetually do, that's your right under the Document above-referenced, even as it is Obama's task to manage an unmanageable job. If you can name me a U.S president who mowed down all objections to his agenda and sailed smoothly through a presidential term, I'll take back my comment. I can't think of one, though, can you?

As for your objections about upholding the Constitution, I think that becomes a very fluid debate, does it not? The Supreme Court is an entirely Constitutional entity but its decisions fluctuate between near-unanimous endorsement of legislation and precedent all the way to widespread public dispute and disenchantment.

A Congressional district in Ohio south of Columbus will send a John Boehner or a Jean Schmidt to Washington, while districts in Massachusetts send a Barney Frank. Same Constitution, same governmental spread, same equalized voter grid.

Again. If you can navigate that landscape better than the president, you run for public office and get something done. Immediately!

Otherwise, your post kinda gives credence to Gibbs' slam on the Left.

[jefferson_dem]

11. Of course, you are correct. It was the right thing to do...in terms of common decency and politics.

Sadly, it seems some on this side wish to emulate the low-brow, base mentality of the teabaggers.

[dflprincess]

12. Common decency demands that war criminals be prosecuted

at least it did in 1945.

It's not that long ago that we allowed (and rightly so) a sick, elderly man to be deported to face trial for crimes he committed 65 years ago. If we're willing to go after those who were "just following orders" we need to go after those who gave the orders as well.

[flamingdem]

23. Where do we start? Presidents who involved us in VIETNAM? nt

[dflprincess]

25. If any of them were still alive

We could still prosecute Colin Powell for his role in covering up My Lai. Kissinger is still with us, I'm okay if we go after him.

As I said, we're still willing to deport WWII war criminals to face prosecution - Vietnam is recent history compared to that.

I cannot believe that there are people on this board that defend allowing Bush & Cheney to get by with the crimes they committed. I'll bet you wouldn't think it was okay if McCain was president and was the one letting them off the hook.

[flamingdem]

29. It's not about defending them, it's not going to happen

so why sweat over it.

There are other ways to get work done for human rights, that is where to put the energy, not into impossible tasks.

[dflprincess]

33. I didn't say you're defending them

you're defending Obama for letting them get by with it - and that makes him an accessory.

[flamingdem]

44. ALL American are responsible in some way for what happened

...unless you can tell me that you were on a hunger strike or chained yourself to the White House Gate.

So few did anything. So the results are what they are... we still have freedom to organize and fight
but where was the uprising?

[dflprincess]

47. Got it

we have the power to stop a president from sending troops off to an illegal war or to bring them home.

It was clear that despite our best efforts nothing we did would stop the Bush & Cheney from pursuing wars with Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember Cheney's response when he was told in 2008 that 2/3 of the people didn't think Iraq was worth fighing? He said "So?".

And that's what Obama is saying about the crimes committed during these wars and that's what makes him complicit.

[katandmoon]

15. No, some want a Democrat president who doesn't keep bending over for criminal Repugs.

[flamingdem]

31. How about a president with a bullet in his head?

Or do you think it's so innocent with these political forces that will NEVER happen... uhhh

[frazzled]

37. You use "Democrat" as an adjective?

That's straight out of the Newt Gingrich playbook. You may be sincere in what you're trying to say, but it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to those of us who have heard that term used against Democratic politicians for the last fifteen years.

I stopped reading at your header.

[scheming daemons]

56. "Democrat President"??? (your slip is showing)

[jefferson_dem]

76. A "Democrat president" huh?

Very interesting...

Exposed.

[katandmoon]

14. So Obama lets his spokesmen trash the people who helped get him elected, while he himself praises

Bush, the foul criminal whose administration restarted Reagan's destruction of our country and began its demise into a permanent police state/war machine with a populace ever more divided into a few major haves and an ever growing number of have nots.

Obama fiddles while the country burns.

[JCMach1]

43. +1

[Stinky The Clown]

16. If Obama got bush up on stage, hugged him, thanked him profusely, and asked him to be co-president

Fox Nooz would STILL call him a muslim socialist racist white people hater.

[IndianaGreen]

18. and some DUers would be telling us how marvelous the entire thing was

and what bad Democrats we are for not having warm fuzzy feelings for war criminals.

[FrenchieCat]

19. And some folks would continue exaggerating

and posing as though issues were important, when in reality,
they want revenge and aren't truly interested in much of anything else.

[IndianaGreen]

21. What you call revenge, I call justice!

It is against international law to launch a war of aggression, don't you know?

[jgraz]

24. Everyone calls it justice.

Except for those few who are blinded by the politics of personality.

[FrenchieCat]

27. Then start back a few Presidents, if you are soooo concerned.

FDR who put the Japanese in camps and allowed their assets to be looted;
There's Truman's dropping the Atom Bombs on Japan;
There's Kennedy and Johnson who widened the Vietnam war;
there's Clinton who ignored Rawnda but not Kosovo...

We can probably even go back before FDR now that I think of it!
Yeah! Let's just prosecute them all!

Too bad this isn't Sweden, and that our media is corporate owned. :(

[dflprincess]

32. Defending Bush

that's a first even for you. But I guess you have to champion him if you're going to convince yourself that Obama is right on this one.

Clinton's ignoring Rawnda was really a "sin" of omission, not a war crime. But I hope he loses sleep over it.

BTW - you left Nixon off your list, he widenen the war into Cambodia. We could still go after Kissinger for that and it's fine by me if we do.

[FrenchieCat]

39. I'm not defending Bush......

I'm only being accused of it by a poster here at DU.

I only named Democratic Presidents,
since the vogue is currently to go after them.

[Exilednight]

64. The current, and last, Democratic Presidents haven't lived up to the Democratic ............

agenda. I know people hate to hear this, but Clinton plays a significant hand in our current economic crisis. Bush Sr negotiated NAFTA, but Clinton signed it into law, not to mention the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Those two crucial pieces of legislation set the wheels in motion for what would would come next.

Bush, Cheney and Rove took it to the next level.

Obama had promised to look at NAFTA and make changes that would help secure America's financial future. Now he claims to be doing all he can, but hasn't done a thing about NAFTA. When Obama came out against NAFTA in its current form, I fully supported him. It was one of the main differences between him and Hillary. Now that he is in office, and we are looking at a possible double dip, where is he on the NAFTA front?

[IndianaGreen]

35. The bombing of the Belgrade power plant in the middle of winter was a war crime

Yep, I am one of those that has no qualms calling for the prosecution of Democratic and Republican war criminals without exception!

I was among the DUers that chastized Pelosi for putting impeachment off the table after she became Speaker, despite the Downing Street memos having been published.

[dflprincess]

28. If all prosecuting a criminal is is revenge

why prosecute any crime at all?

[flamingdem]

42. If you didn't chain yourself to the BUSH White House Fence when it started

are you any less guilty?

[dflprincess]

49. Not having the power to deploy troops, to bring them home

or to prosecute war criminals, I am less guilty.

Our opinions didn't matter to Bush and it's become clear that Obama doesn't give a damn about them either.

It has been truly amusing this evening reading the justifications for why it's just okay-fine for Obama to ignore the crimes committed by the Bush administration. I doubt you'd have the same attitude if McCain were in the White House and leading the cover up.

[Ramulux]

60. Ummmm no

This address didnt do anything but make the liberal base even less motivated for November.

Out of all the stupid mistakes Obama could make between now and November, attempting to revise history to paint George Bush in a flattering light is probably the worst thing he could have done. I Sometimes literally wonder what planet Obama is living on. In all seriousness I cant fathom how he could have thought this was a good idea. Way to fuck up the speech regarding your biggest accomplishment to date.

[impik]

70. People really thought that Obama will do it

any other way?

Wow, they really have no idea who the man is.

[scheming daemons]

73. They know exactly who he is....

...they're just unable to accept it.

[lamp_shade]

75. Spot on.

[NJmaverick]

77. K & R!

[rucky]

78. I could go for less brilliance and more sincerity.

[GeorgeGist]

79. Congratulations ...

you fell for it; hook, line and sinker.

[Bragi]

81. Here's how a smart GOP would react

Talking points in reaction to speech:

- I am pleased that President Obama has finally recognized that President Bush's decision to fight terrorism in Iraq was patriotic and justified.

- I hope that his rapid draw down of troops in Iraq does not result in terrorists again getting the upper hand

- I fear that his mishandling of the peace that resulted from President Bush's surge may result in renewed conflict and even civil war in Iraq

- I urge the President to redeploy all the troops being withdrawn from Iraq to Afghanistan where he can try to replicate President's Bush successful strategy to end the war in Iraq.

Then I'd just wait for the civil war in Iraq and continued dismal results in Afghanistan to fully demoralize even his few pro-war supporters and eventually sink his Presidency.

[Hekate]

82. Nicely analyzed, Scheming Daemons. The "framing" was important--starting with being in the Oval...

... not using uniformed military personnel as props, leaving out a bajillion US flags, no big-ass piece of military equipment like an aircraft carrier for a prop, and no ginormous banner proclaiming a victory that isn't.

The President came off like a sober adult instead of a triumphant schoolyard bully.

The content matched the framing as well, in my opinion.

Hekate