A new thought on the "why isn't Bush being persecuted as a war criminal?" question.

[hedgehog]

In a perfect world, I'd love to see Bush and everyone around him sent to the Hague. (Well, maybe not Barney.) But this isn't a perfect world. If a trial were held today, can we be certain of a conviction? If Bush is convicted, is anyone certain he wouldn't appeal to the Supreme Court and have the conviction overturned by the men who put him into office in the first place?

Sending Bush et al to jail would be the right thing to do, it would make us here all feel better, but it would be perceived by the other side as meaningless tit-for-tat, merely one-upping them for impeaching Clinton.

Here's something else we need to consider: We have the extremists on the other side claiming Obama is some kind of Islamic Manchurian candidate, and the leaders of the Republican Party encouraging them. I've heard several times now that if the Republicans take the House, they intend to let loose with all kinds of subpoenas and even attempt to find something, anything to impeach Obama on. Right now I think it's more important for all of us to support Obama and keep the criminals out of power as long as possible than it is to make a Quixotic attempt to prosecute them.

On edit: short version: if we don't quit sitting around bitching about what Obama hasn't done, we're going to end up sitting aghast at what the Republicans will do!

[ClassWarrior]

1. Yes, let's not call the police because the rapists may take retribution.

:eyes:

NGU.

[hedgehog]

2. It's more a case of if we call the cops, the rapists will accuse us

of making a false accusation, and we'll be the ones to land in jail.

On edit: Do want to prosecute Bush out of vengeance or to prevent this shit from happening again? If it's vengeance, I'm out of here. If we want to keep the shit from happening, is it better to try for a prosecution that might fail in today's climate, or do everything we can to keep Republicans out of office the next 20 years?

A Democratic Congress jumped the gun on the Iran-Contra Affair, and Reagan, George Bush I and all their cronies walked. If there hadn't been some grandstanding back then, George Bush I and George Bush II might never had held office.

[ClassWarrior]

6. Yes, so let's cower in the corner and let the rapists rule the land.

:puke:

NGU.

[grasswire]

28. Vengeance? That's a GOP talking point.

That's a way of framing the constitutional imperative that Obama swore to uphold as if it were simply an act of negative emotion.

Holding Bushco accountable for crimes would not be vengeance. It would be justice. Equal justice under the law.

(What do you think it does to our nation when those at the highest levels walk free while millions of petty criminals are pursued with vigor?)

(What do you think it does to our reputation in the world when our most corrupt and criminal politicians walk free while we preach democracy and try to impose it on other nations?)

(What do you think future generations will think when they see that we did not care enough about either the Rule of Law or our children and grandchildren's liberty to seek the truth when the Constitution is attacked?)

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. The USSC does not have standing with the

International Court at the Hague.

We have not signed any treaty recognizing it either.

That is why he and company were never sent.

As to the US Courts... you do have a point. But we need to remember who has standing where.

[flvegan]

4. When did "perfect world" trump "just world" where we tossed the Constitution aside?

And stop playing fucking defense 24/7. THIS is our biggest problem, we let them run rampant framing and defining everything while we play Molly Nice-Nice on defense. Our powder is so dry...

[yurbud]

5. prosecuting them is a way of keeping them out of power and put stink on some of their favorite

talking points.

It would be tough to peddle fear if your party was convicted of basing it on lies that got thousands of our troops killed and over a million Iraqis killed.

[ClassWarrior]

8. You're quickly becoming my new favorite DUer.

NGU.

[oldtime dfl_er]

9. what yurbud said

Not to mention, the Republicans are still smarting -- if you can believe it -- over the resignation of Richard Nixon. Politicians have long memories, and hold grudges forever. The stink needs to linger on them and their tactics for as long as possible, as long as it takes to get this country back on track. And longer.

[hedgehog]

13. Yes, the Republicans are still smarting over Nixon.

That's why they went after Clinton. It was never about lying in a deposition, it was all about pay-back.

[hedgehog]

10. In an ideal world, Justice is blind and the decision would be based on the evidence.

In this world, I really do think the Supreme Court would step in to protect Bush.

Too many people are too worried about getting a job or keeping the one they have to pay proper attention to this right now. It will be seen as politics as usual.

[ClassWarrior]

15. True... It's just not the right time for justice...

We'll get around to it when it's more convenient, right?

:puke:

NGU.

[hedgehog]

17. We'll get around to it when it's possible. We can either spend

our efforts in a futile chase of the arsonist, or we can put out the fire.

[ClassWarrior]

25. Or we could do both.

:eyes:

NGU.

[Ozymanithrax]

7. I think it is important for us to maintain a government that functions on some level...

and will make some small changes to the good.

The only good thing about a Republican takeover is that it would unite Democratic Underground. We are held together by what we oppose. Maybe it is better to be a bitching society than informed members of a democratic Republic.

[depakid]

11. Ya think?

Just wait until the Senate approves of- and Obama starts signing Republican legislation.

That's when the fun really started with Clinton.

[Ozymanithrax]

21. The government must function.

I intend to vote. I will donate time to candidates. They will all be Democrats unless there is a local green that appeals to me. If people sit out the election and Republicans come into power, it is what the people wanted. We have a government elected by the majority of people who vote.

[depakid]

29. All I'm saying is that if or when Republicans start passing all sorts of foolery

As happened with the Telecommunications bill- or the salvage rider (logging without laws) etc., -just wait and see the response from the constituencies when Senate Dems or the President sign on.

[Ozymanithrax]

30. Yes there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth...

not to mention the typical bithcing and moaning.

There will be accusation raised that Republicans fixed the vote, or that Obama did not do enough.

But if people vote with their ass by sitting on it, they get what they want, including the logging laws, the telecommunications bill and everything else.

[depakid]

32. That attitude brought the Dems loss of Congress for 12 years

and was a major factor in the election of 2000.

Proving the point yet again I guess that some folks never learn -and really don't care to learn (perhaps because they're not all that opposed to corporate right policies.

It's looking more and more like this forum will be an interesting place to watch over the next 21/2 years...

[Ozymanithrax]

36. If I want a pleasant place to visit I will walk along Poway Creek.

n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. "We are held together by what we oppose." Truer words were never spoken in the context of what

makes DU tick.

[Skittles]

12. it's official

I am in bizarro world

[hedgehog]

14. I've lived in bizarro world since 1968. First MLK was murdered,

then Bobby, then Nixon was elected.

[ClassWarrior]

18. That explains it.

Stockholm Syndrome.

NGU.

[hedgehog]

19. Not hardly, just that I've learned that Justice doesn't always prevail.

[ClassWarrior]

20. So give up, right?

NGU.

[hedgehog]

22. Not give up, just wait until we get a clean shot.

[ClassWarrior]

23. :eyes:

:eyes:

NGU.

[Cleita]

24. Congress could start investigations on this and Obama

wouldn't have to be involved but it won't happen. All those criminals will die in bed with all the best of medical care. However, History will judge them and it won't be kind. Their descendants will have to live with their shame.

[TheKentuckian]

26. Well, if someone hacks up one of your relations we'll remember to remind you to turn the page

and look forward not backward.

[TheKentuckian]

27. Well, if someone hacks up one of your relations we'll remember to remind you to turn the page

and look forward not backward.

[bkozumplik]

31. who cares what the other side "perceives"

"Sending Bush et al to jail would be the right thing to do, it would make us here all feel better, but it would be perceived by the other side as meaningless tit-for-tat, merely one-upping them for impeaching Clinton. "

its the right thing to do, and that should be the end of the discussion on it. You dont sell out the right thing for some political poker chips. You fricking do the right thing. period. every time. the end.

Why does everyone constantly worry about perceptions of your enemies, or "what signal that would send to.."
thats weak ridiculous nonsense. It always has been. When you are elected and put in charge you RULE. You dont ask permission, and you dont worry night and day over what the other side cares about.


"if we don't quit sitting around bitching about what Obama hasn't done"
Its Obama's activities that will make him or hang him. Our "bitching" is not in itself anything but a reflection of the massive wave of what the public feels. And you arent going to change that with ra ra words.

Only actions will work. So spare me the "you guys better start being cheerful" BS. Its pointless.

[fasttense]

33. Even if President Obama had done some kind of investigatory

commission and brought out the crimes of the bushes, we would not be seeing and hearing about how RepubliCONS are going to take over Congress.

But because President Obama and the Democratic Majority did nothing, less than nothing, not even a slap on the wrists, not even expose the crimes, not even talk about the crimes, the criminals got stronger and bolder. And here are all the same criminals lining up to do all over again.

President Obama is the wrong man for these times. These times call for bold, brave fighters. He is trying to bring everyone together, trying to be Mr. Centrist and put aside our difference. The problem is those differences aren't simple little insults or differences in political opinions (which is what Obama treats them as), they are vast crimes. Torture has always been and still is against the law. Starting a war and murdering thousands for your political career is a crime. Allowing your friends to con and deceive people out of their money is a crime. Developing vast ponzi schemes with the aid of federal regulators is a crime.

Americans can't hold the criminals accountable so they are going to hold their appeasers accountable.

[depakid]

34. "so they are going to hold their appeasers accountable."

Yes they will.

In the only way they know how.

[ladjf]

35. I understand the weaknesses of human nature. But, why is so

impossible to find a leader who is honest, intelligent and courageous? Jimmy Carter was perhaps to closest to that and he is rather unpopular, particularly in Georgia, his home state.