Micheal Moore.. I am sorry but you are totally out to lunch on this one

[Peacetrain]

Ground Zero is a remembrance for those who died.. no religious organization, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc. should be building on the site. I know you are trying to make a point..but making a point on the head of a pin..why give those who have derided you before.. ammunition to derail all you have done. Just because you can say it..does not mean you need to say it.. Just because you can do it.. does not mean that you should do it.
Nobody's point of view is that golden, not mine, not yours, not anyone's.


Trending: Build Islamic center on Ground Zero, says Moore

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/



(CNN) – Liberal filmmaker Michael Moore is weighing in on the proposed Islamic Community Center in New York City, stirring the the pot by saying he doesn't want it to be built near Ground Zero but rather on Ground Zero.

"I want it built on Ground Zero. Why? Because I believe in an America that protects those who are the victims of hate and prejudice," Moore writes in an open letter on his website. "I believe in an America that says you have the right to worship whatever God you have, wherever you want to worship.

[jaxx]

1. I agree.

To me he was pot stirring.

[Peacetrain]

3. There is no point, other than trying to stir the bat sh*t crazy agains Muslims

and there is enough of that going on without something like this. I can guarantee you this.. no Muslim is jumping up and down for joy at this. People are on the point of violence.. that is that road that goes both ways

[amandabeech]

24. I'm with you on this.

The Imam has every Constitutional right to build a community center wherever he wants, so long as he complies with local ordinances, like zoning, construction codes, safety codes, etc., fairly applied.

The folks have every Consitutional right to burn the Koran, subject to similar local ordinances, fairly applied.

The First Amendment, however, does not contain the word "wisdom."

I am on record here as believing that the cultural center would cause many, many problems here in the U.S. because of its location. I believed then and I do now, that the problems will complete outweigh any progress toward understanding and reconciliation between Muslims and the rest of the U.S. populace.

As I understand it, the Imam was on Larry King recently and stated that he could not move the mosque now because there would be a huge and ugly problem with conservative muslims who would not accept any concessions to the Crusaders. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

That statement made it infinitely worse.

Now, there's a conservative pastor of a small, non-denominational Protestant church, who wants to exercise his Constitutional right to free speech.

Lots of folks in DC get really upset because they think that our troops may suffer more attacks as a result of the pastor exercising his Constitutional right to free speech, and they may be right.

Now, the Florida pastor has backed down.

There is no indication that any high administration official talked directly and privately to the Imam in New York counseling him on what kind of problems he might be unnecessarily be causing to himself and ty the U.S. by exercising his Constitutional.

The Florida pastor has made the wise move by compromising. The Imam, who did not get good advice, IMHO, is not comprising, and it appears due to fear.

I don't see a lot of winners here.

[left is right]

I think everyone is missing one gigantic point

This is about property rights. Park51 was donated to an Islamic organization. Once they accept the donation it belongs to the organization to use in any way they see fit. If people feel that it would be best if it is not used by said Islamic association than they must offer to buy land and building at a fair market price or offer an equal to or greater value property to the association. I have not heard of anyone making such an offer. Without that offer no on can say that the Imam is not willing to compromise.

[Karenina]

33. Another GIGANTIC point most on this thread are missing

To even make claims of "sensitivity" or "wisdom" one must begin from the fundamental stance of COLLECTIVE BLAME. That is part and parcel of bias, bigotry and prejudice. A little consciousness raising is in order IMHO. What I observe from all the hoopla is a people being led around by the nose by a craven media and a complete subjugation of the cognitive to the emotionally arousing. Those supporting Park51 have no legitimate reason to "compromise" and I certainly hope they won't.

[amandabeech]

36. No one is stopping anyone from putting that piece of property on the market.

If it is a charitable donation, it will be only a paper loss for the group.

You misconstrue "property rights". Property rights here in the U.S. do not obligate private citizens to purchase property from owners whose land use choice they find disagreeable.

If the government takes the property in a condemnation action to use for a purpose thought to be of great benefit to the community, then the government must give fair compensation. This applies only to the government, not to private citizens.

Moreover, it is not the responsibility of individuals to compensate the Imam and his financial backers for any unwise purchase of property.

If the Imam had asked me, or lot of people whom he apparently does not talk to, I would have said in the strongest possible terms, "DON'T DO IT!!!"

He and his group have survived the local land use proceedings, and he and his backers have the legal right to build there, but he and his backers will undoubtedly have ongoing problems with this site.

[dionysus]

39. anti muslim bigotry is whack.

[Karenina]

46. +1

[flamingdem]

29. Yup nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. And I believe in Michael Moore's America

Sorry you missed his point.

[Peacetrain]

5. I did not miss his point at all

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I'm sure you don't believe you did

[Peacetrain]

10. I am not going to go around in circles about this.. I said in the OP I understood his point

And I totally disagree with how he is trying to make it. You can remove a skin cancer on you arm by surgical means or you can blow your arm off with a gun.. both gets the job done.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. A religious building at Ground Zero is the same as blowing your arm off?

Okay. I'll let you have that one.

[Peacetrain]

9. self delete.. posted in wrong place..

[bluestateguy]

4. There should be no religious places of worship on Ground Zero

And that should go for everybody.

[Peacetrain]

6. I 100% agree..

[Vincardog]

22. Right Ground zero should always and only be a monument to PNAC treason.

[bluestateguy]

23. Careful what you wish for

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic here.

Next thing you know there will be a Southern Baptist fundamentalist megachurch there.

[Vincardog]

25. As long as it has a copy of the paper saying how ONLY A PEARL HARBOR LIKE EVENT CAN ALLOW PUBLIC

support for their permanent war plan.

[monmouth]

8. I'm so glad someone said this out loud. He's way off on this one...n/t

[Peacetrain]

11. I am so opposed to any religious community putting up a site on ground zero itself..

I had to say something..So many people of so many faiths and agnostics died there.. it should be just a place of reflection..

[monmouth]

12. Exactly..n/t

[Hawkowl]

16. Considering Ground Zero is a cemetery

It seems to me that religious communities would have no better site than ground zero, considering the entire site is a giant cemetery. Most religions seem to have a tremendous focus on what happens after death, so ground zero being a cemetery would attract them like moths to a flame.

I am a complete agnostic, and have no problems with any and all religious communities getting to set up any type of worship/community facilities they like. As long as all are granted equal access. It is all nonsense to me. However, being an airline pilot who was actually working on 9/11, I understand peoples' need to make sense and take meaning from the event through religion.

I think a good compromise might be setting aside floor space in the new site for every sect who wants one.

[Peacetrain]

17. A reflective place where each person can be how they need to be..

Edit to add.. there is not enough space to give each religious sect its own place.

[Hawkowl]

21. Think 3D

By 3D, I mean think vertical. The proposed "Freedom Tower" is going to be one of the largest "spaces" on the planet. Certainly one or two floors would be sufficient.

The alternative would be to deny all religious groups any space. Personally, I would prefer that, but the USA is almost medieval in its insistence on religions place in society. So, for the masses, the building probably needs religious space.

[johnaries]

14. I love MM - MOST of the time. There are several things I have

disagreed with him on. And this is another one.

I'm not going to "throw him under the bus" but I agree with you - he is totally out to lunch on this one.

[jwirr]

15. Agree. But I was also against building a new commercial building

there as a memorial to capitalism.

[ProSense]

18. This makes no sense

"And I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back. And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you," he added.

He wants Muslims to get their religion back by building on the spot where 3,000 souls lost their lives?

Then again, Moore also wrote this:

All I can say is, they had better build that mosque now. If a Florida bigot can get a place of worship halted because of his threats, then we are all truly doomed. All this crap about how if the Koran was burned "we'd really be hated by Muslims then!" Are you kidding me? Get outta the house and take a trip through the Arab world! THEY ALREADY HATE OUR GUTS. And not because of a stupid book burning. They hate us because we've killed hundreds of thousands of their people! We've claimed their oil as ours. Never ever forget that Saddam Hussein was armed and supported for years by the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. And WE overthrew the democratically-elected government in Iran. We continue to prop up the dictators of the Arabian peninsula and we have turned our backs on the Palestinian people.

They don't hate us for a book burning. White people of European ancestry have enjoyed a good book burning for some time now!

A complete lack of perspective.

Thousands protest Koran burning plan in Afghan north

[Peacetrain]

19. Talking down to Muslims like they were children is not helpful at all

Muslims did not lose their religion because a bastardized sect (like the Klu Klux Klan is a bastardized sect of Christianity..using its symbols to terrorize and or power gain) attacked the Twin Towers.

MM just has gotten way ahead of himself on this. What he is saying is not making any sense.

[Cha]

37. It's as if he's

lost all his perspective on everything..I don't like what he's doing to dumb down America. He has a big mic and he's using it foolishly like a demagogue who's not interested in facts but only in the next feeding frenzy.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. At Pentagon, Muslims pray without protests

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iqvSi9taAHCsJwHTtrYovIB4al5g

WASHINGTON — Without controversy or protests, Muslims kneel in prayer every day at a quiet Pentagon chapel, only steps away from where a hijacked airliner struck the building on September 11, 2001.

The tranquil atmosphere at the Pentagon is a stark contrast to the furor surrounding a planned mosque near Ground Zero in New York, with opponents arguing the proposed Islamic center is an insult to the memory of the 3,000 victims of the 9/11 attacks.

"I've been here almost four years and I've never heard of any complaints," US Army spokesman George Wright said of the regular Muslim services.

Families of those killed in the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11 have not raised objections over the Islamic services, he said.

On Friday afternoon, an imam led about 18 Muslim men and women in prayer. They knelt beneath a stained-glass window bearing an image of the Pentagon, an American bald eagle and the words: "United in memory, September 11, 2001."
<snip>
About 60 feet (18 meters) away from the chapel, American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into the west side of the Pentagon on 9/11, killing 184 people. The chapel, and a memorial room for the victims of the attack, were added when the damaged wing of the building was rebuilt.

The chapel is open to all faiths, and shortly before the Friday prayers, there was a Jewish service on the schedule.

"There are Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Episcopal, Hindu and Muslim services," Wright said.

The Pentagon chaplain's office has recently received inquiries about possible Buddhist services at the chapel as well, he told AFP.
<snip>

[amandabeech]

26. It is totally and completely non-denominational and it is not sponsored

by any religion.

It is run by the chaplains office, which takes all religious men and women into its branch of the service.

[firedupdem]

27. Rec'd...

He is off base and seems hungry for attention right now.

[woo me with science]

28. +1 That was my first thought.

This seems attention-seeking.

[Uzybone]

30. its what agitators do

he knows there is no chance of that happening so he is just saying that so us on the left can say "yeah! right on Mike!!!

Noting but shit stirring.

Its like the Gov of Texas talking about secession.

[bahrbearian]

31. How big is Ground Zero ???

[Warren Stupidity]

32. "Ground Zero is a remembrance for those who died" - wrong.

There is a memorial there, but it is also an enormous commercial development project. 1 WTC is a 2.5M square feet office building. Tower two - another 2.5M sq ft of commercial office space. Tower three - 2M sq ft of commercial office space. Tower four - 1.8M sq ft. - commercial office space ....


So, what exactly is your point about the appropriate use of this 'hallowed ground'?

[Capn Sunshine]

34. I disagree with your take on Moores take

IF "Ground Zero is a remembrance for those who died" Then there should have been a memorial built there, like at Pearl Harbor. Instead, it's just a hindrance to a real estate development deal.

I can't ever tell when Moore is being satirical ala Swifts "Modest proposal" any more.

[awoke_in_2003]

35. it is a piece of fucking real estate...

that is all it is. They bought it, and the city approved it. This is not some "sacred ground' that needs to be worshipped due to fear. Yes fear- that is all 9/11 is used for, to keep the population afraid.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. wow, really lack the satire bone....

Listen. You start by claiming that an office building project is some sort of place of holy rules. That in itself is funny. If you can claim as sacred that which you will abide being used as office space, I am not surprised that you don't get it. It is an joke.
My version has been that they should build a huge, domed and minaretted mosque in Battery Park, as a capper to Lower Manhattan, right across from Lady Liberty. Same joke, a few blocks down. What can you say?
These jokes mean 'Let them make the center as planned, you book burning hate mongers'. Do you still not agree?

[Orsino]

44. I'm not sure it's what I'd call a joke...

...but it certainly sounds satirical. I think he's quite serious about the let-them-build meaning you divined, and I'll agree with him at least that far.

[bvar22]

40. Religious Freaks are going to get us all killed.

I wish they would take the time to read their instruction books.

The only church that belongs at the WTC site would be a gilded Cathedral
to the Giant Invisible Hand.

[uppityperson]

41. Unrec for misrepresenting his piece. Picking a small bit an ignoring the rest is wrong.

For instance :

There's been so much that's been said about this manufactured controversy, I really don't want to waste any time on this day of remembrance talking about it. But I hate bigotry and I hate liars, and so in case you missed any of the truth that's been lost in this, let me point out a few facts:

1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. This is not going to be a "mosque," it's going to be a community center. It will have the same prayer room in it that's already there. But to even have to assure people that "it's not going to be mosque" is so offensive, I now wish they would just build a 111-story mosque there. That would be better than the lame and disgusting way the developer has left Ground Zero an empty hole until recently. The remains of over 1,100 people still haven't been found. That site is a sacred graveyard, and to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege. Why wasn't the entire site turned into a memorial peace park? People died there, and many of their remains are still strewn about, all these years later.

2. Guess who has helped the Muslims organize their plans for this community center? The JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER of Manhattan! Their rabbi has been advising them since the beginning. It's been a picture-perfect example of the kind of world we all want to live in. Peter Stuyvessant, New York's "founder," tried to expel the first Jews who arrived in Manhattan. Then the Dutch said, no, that's a bit much. So then Stuyvessant said ok, you can stay, but you cannot build a synagogue anywhere in Manhattan. Do your stupid Friday night thing at home. The first Jewish temple was not allowed to be built until 1730. Then there was a revolution, and the founding fathers said this country has to be secular -- no religious nuts or state religions. George Washington (inaugurated around the corner from Ground Zero) wanted to make a statement about this his very first year in office, and wrote this to American Jews: (clip))

Friends, we all have a responsibility NOW to make sure that Muslim community center gets built. Once again, 70% of the country (the same number that initially supported the Iraq War) is on the wrong side and want the "mosque" moved. Enormous pressure has been put on the Imam to stop his project. We have to turn this thing around. Are we going to let the bullies and thugs win another one? Aren't you fed up by now? When would be a good time to take our country back from the haters?

I say right now. Let's each of us make a statement by donating to the building of this community center! It's a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization and you can donate a dollar or ten dollars (or more) right now through a secure pay pal account by clicking here. I will personally match the first $10,000 raised (forward your PayPal receipt to [e-mail] ). If each one of you reading this blog/email donated just a couple of dollars, that would give the center over $6 million, more than what Donald Trump has offered to buy the Imam out. C'mon everyone, let's pitch in and help those who are being debased for simply wanting to do something good. We could all make a huge statement of love on this solemn day.

I lost a co-worker on 9/11. I write this today in his memory. ...

[Peacetrain]

42. Unrec to your hearts content.. but if you cannot see why I said Micheal was

off in the ether with how he is doing this..there is nothing I can do to change your mind.. But this is right off of Micheals Blog.. it is on the front page

"I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving
and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from
you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get
your religion back

How offensive that is to Muslims.. I do not even know where to begin. Muslims did not lose their religion on 9/11 ..

[uppityperson]

43. I agree no churches in WTC site, but I agree with the rest, including, I want to help you

get your religion back, rather than having to be fearful and hiding it. A group of murderers struck on 9/11 and helped give many the excuse to take away the rights of Muslims. How offensive is it that mosques across the country, that anyone with a turban, that a community center have come under attack? How offensive is it that I have, at times, not worn salwar kameez that I got from my family because people might take me for a murderous Muslim? How offensive is it that my father, born and raised in ND, is taken aside for extra screening when he flies because he has dark skin and might be an OMG MUSLIM!! How offensive is it that President Obama is called a Muslin as an insult?

THAT is how I take Michael Moore's piece. THOSE are offensive, very offensive. The bigotry of people, the lies spread about "OMG MUSLIMS!" since 9/11 are offensive.

[uppityperson]

48. link for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9121155&mesg_id=9121155

[urgk]

45. Have you all lost your ever-loving minds?

What's next, writing Jonathan Swift to give him apiece of your mind about his recommendation to eat babies?


"Dear Satirists,
Please, when we are being unreasonable, pamper us.

Sincerely,
The babies who, able to drink nothing but milk,
ask the rest of you to stop eating steak."

[Rosa Luxemburg]

47. nah, it's still too radioactive

[zulchzulu]

49. I didn't realize Moore was such a pothead that he bones up in the CNN bathroom

He obviously got hold of some heavy-duty Humboldt and fired up a doobie in the CNN bathroom before going on the teevee.

:crazy: