Listening to Kennedy-Nixon debate driving at night home made me ashamed...

[zulchzulu]

...of just how trivial and nonsensical our politics has become.

Driving home on a dark rural midwest highway through Illinois, I decided to fire up a recording of the second debate between Nixon and Kennedy in 1960. It was fascinating to hear the unvarnished voices, hear the respect each had for each other for the most part and hear the powerful and succinct political genius of JFK.

Jack's voice was strong, thoughtful, intelligent while being nuanced and wonkish on issues discussed. Nixon also displayed a level of knowledge that was impressive as well.

Gotcha soundbites would have been hard to cherry-pick for a simple-minded political frame worthy enough for a Ken or Barbie Doll Cable News Puppet to repeat over and over again with a well-coached smile.

Kennedy's message had hints of his "ask not..." speech where Americans would have to sacrifice and work hard for the upcoming decade. Nixon even admitted that taxes might need to be raised to keep the economy strong and control inflation.

There were no personal attacks.

No stupid "what would you do if your wife was raped..." questions.

None of the chosen reporters asking the questions nor Frank McGee, who monitored the debate, played off like they were media star celebrities.

Ideas were debated without cute comebacks or snively soundbites prepared for an incompetent media playing to a short-attention span audience.

It was refreshing to hear political minds exchange ideas without trying to deliver the "big story" in four words or less.

Those days are indeed gone.

This election season has proven that the exchange of ideas in a respectful fashion are not what the media wants.

As I think about beginning the trip a couple days ago, there was some rude guy in an Escalade who was weaving and dogging cars on the highway and he passed by me going at least 90 mph. On the back of his vehicle was a poster taped on and the message was "Vote Demo-rats and other marxists out" flapping in the wind.

This is what America has become.

We can thank the likes of Rush Limbaugh and the Right Wing Echo Chamber for sinking this country into the gutter. You can see the insane negative political ads perpetrating lies that are paid for by undisclosed contributors who you are not allowed to know who they are or where the money is from.

Be afraid. Curl up into a ball.

Cry. Hate.

Repeat the nonsense over and over again and over again with a nervously degenerate grin.

Those who vote for the merchants of the Right Wing Echo Chamber surely deserve the damage that will continue to sink this country deeper into a more greedy mean-spirited oblivion.

[book_worm]

1. people who heard the '60 debates on radio thought Nixon won while those who watched on TV

thought Kennedy won.

[hedgehog]

3. You can't see a smirk on the radio, you can on TV!

Om edit: an early version of the land-line vs cell phone divide? Old fogies (Republicans) listened to the radio, Young (and young at heart) Democrats watched on TV?

[book_worm]

4. Actually I think it had more to do with Nixon's eyes darting about and his five o'clock shadow

and heavy perspiring, while JFK looked tanned and relaxed.

[Stand and Fight]

21. That's exactly what it was...

Let's also not forget that television was NOT a common household feature like it is today. Those who didn't have televisions likely didn't have them because they couldn't afford them -- not because they were old or young, Republican or Democrat... Did you not see what the poster had to say? They discussed, debated, and disagreed on the issues in a respectful tone.

[zulchzulu]

8. If you listened openly, it was a tie. It was about keeping the 50s or turning the page

There was enough dialogue between Nixon and Kennedy in this second debate where, if you were there at that time, you would either for continuing the Eisenhower administration or wanted something new to start a new decade.

Mentioned in the debate was the repercussions of the Recession of 1958 and Kennedy kept using that for good measure. Nixon actually understood the need for taxes to make the dollar strong.

I could not imagine ANY Republican being honest on taxes like Nixon was.

I indeed is true that the new media medium of television made Nixon appear nervous and untelegenic. At least he nor Kennedy winked at the camera.

[book_worm]

11. I never listened on radio, so I wouldn't know--I'm just quoting from

several books which have said that polls indicated that people who listened on the radio thought Nixon won while those on TV thought Kennedy won.

[hedgehog]

2. On the other hand, didn't Nixon give us the "Southern Strategy"?

[unblock]

15. of course -- but that was in 1968, well after the nixon-kennedy debates

[burning rain]

42. In 1960, Nixon ran as moderate to liberal.

Conservatives were much annoyed with his acceptance of New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller's liberal platform demands, and Barry Goldwater, pushed by conservatives to mount a convention challenge, instead urged them to support the Nixon-Lodge ticket, "grow up," organize, and in future their time would come.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[abq e streeter]

10. Not flamed; just pitied for being so utterly delusional

[Odin2005]

20. What a scathing analysis!

:eyes:

[KossackRealityCheck]

24. What?

How are millennials a "civic" generation? More civic than the people who carried out anti-war protests, lunch counter sit ins, freedom rides?

The 60s had its excesses, especially after around 67-68, but they were certainly more civic minded than any generation since.

And comparing millennials to the WW II generation is frankly obscene.

[creon]

32. yes it was

I agree wth you.

[Historic NY]

6. Speaking of Kennedy, his speech writer Ted Sorensen died today age 82

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2013312876_sorensenobit01.html

[zulchzulu]

9. RIP Ted n/t

[unblock]

16. awww, so sad.

he was one of the best speechwriters ever, maybe THE best speechwriters ever.

his words echo still today.

[Demeter]

7. Part of what no longer works in this country is the media

It used to be that news was news--not titillation, not filler, not the stuff that separates one commercial advert from another. Media used to matter; it had standards. Media came out of intellect to promote intellect; out of information to build a data base for political progress...

That all changed when the corporate wing of the GOP started to buy up and subvert the media--around the rise of Reagan. In a better world, Reagan would have never been considered for the presidency--his age and obvious mental infirmities would have made him the next Harold Stassen. But after Nixon went down in flames, the GOP decided to punish the nation and the media for its temerity. How dare they expose the man and his crimes?

With the river of information dammed, the nation was damned. And the people were watered with poison, instead of wisdom, and the schools were destroyed by a deprivation of resources, judgment and freedom to teach. The schools became prisons, the workplaces and the armed forces became slave labor, the prisons became hellholes, no rehabilitation permitted.

If this isn't Mordor, it's the next best thing.

[NYC Liberal]

12. Politics has ALWAYS been trivial. Actually, the personal attacks

and pettiness has probably gone down considerably since the first competitive elections in this country.

Jefferson called Adams a "hermaphrodite... which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." Adams called Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father," an atheist, a coward, a hypocrite, etc. They used the Sally Hemmings story constantly.

John Quincy Adams basically called Andrew Jackson's wife a slut because they'd been married before her divorce had been finalized, and called his mother a prostitute. Jackson attacked him for being an elitist and called him a pimp.

Preston Brooks freaking beat Charles Sumner into a coma with his cane on the Senate floor!

Lincoln and Douglas were pretty vicious. Lincoln made fun of Douglas being short and Douglas called Lincoln all sorts of ugly names.

When Grover Cleveland ran, the big issue of the campaign was his extramartial affair.

The GOP went after Al Smith for being Catholic and claimed the pope would be running the country, said Smith would build a secret tunnel connecting the White House and the Vatican.

Anyway, my point is there has NEVER been a "golden age" of politics, where everyone only talked about real issues and politicans. Never has been. I'm not saying that there isn't ugliness today, but it isn't new at all. It's not unique to the US or recent years.

[raven42]

13. I think the difference now (which analysts mention quite often)

is the sheer magnitude of the negativity in today's politics. There aren't just a few nasty insults exchanged. It's a constant barrage through t.v. ads, talk-radio, internet blogs, etc. It's a cesspool. Combine that with short attention spans and you get voters who will embrace a whole political ideology based on soundbites. And I don't think the kinds of idiots the republicans are nominating in this day and age would've made it very far in previous generations either. Standards are sinking all the time now.

[NYC Liberal]

19. Oh the barrage, again, has always been constant.

I'd venture to say that voters are more informed than they were years ago BECAUSE of TV, radio, and the internet, and because so many more people have college degrees (not that a college degree automatically makes someone more informed or even "smarter"). Compare the literacy rates now and a 100 or 150 years ago.

Sure it seems like it's a "barrage" because you're in the thick of it. But go back to the 19th century and you'll find people complaining in much the same way. As a matter of fact, before the 1850s, newspapers were owned and operated by the political parties. They existed to push the party line, not to objectively report the news. You could say we've returned to that in a way with corporate ownership, but it's not anything new.

[unblock]

17. it comes and goes, and also depends on the times and the region

and therefore perhaps we're not irretrievably lost. but we are at a very low level historically. you have to go back and cherry pick not only elections, but also speeches, to get to our present level.

we have not only the personal/party attacks but also a nearly complete absence of substance. lincoln and douglas traded jabs, sure, but they also talked much about substance. today, substance is limited to closed-door sessions, if it's there at all, and distilled into sound bites, which is all we ever get to see.

[Jennicut]

31. It does fluctuate. Unfortunately, this recession (or depression) brought out the worst

in some. They just could not deal with the collapse of the world they had known for so long. The majority of them are over 50 years old. They want some kind of return to the 1950's. But it just isn't happening. They can't deal so they take it out on others, the reasonable people left in this county.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. I watched the same debates on youtube a couple of years...

.... ago and had EXACTLY the same reaction.

[madmax]

18. Maybe they're gone because we don't care

enough to take them back.

On 'Reliable Sources' the topic being discussed was 'The Rally' and the interviewee ? said, basically that Jon was full of it and that people love conflict that's what cable news provides. I beg to differ. The clip shown at the Rally went thru various hyperbolic 'threat and dangers' no related to politics at all.

Wonder if anyone has done a study of a persons bp or mental attitude after watching 3 or 4 hours of non-stop fear mongering on cable, be it he swine flu, bed bugs, fires, E-Coli on tv remotes, oh hell all manner of insanity. not just politics. So when Jon said, 'when you amplify 'everything' you hear nothing', that is what I thought about.

If their was a concentrated effort to either boycott, letter writing campaingn or something to let them know what WE want. Then I think - they're beholden to the advertisers. They'll get what THEY want and piss on us.

[chervilant]

36. hmm...

You might be interested in two books about which your post reminded me:

Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television by Jerry Mander

and

The Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard.

Social scientists have done significant research on the effects of viewing television, and much of it is gathering dust on the bookshelves of academia.

[madmax]

37. Thank you - love book rec's from DU'ers.

Rachel doesn't own a TV and it hasn't seemed have had a negative inpact on her ability to be a critical thinker ;)

[lunatica]

22. Those were the first tv debates so they were real

Since then they've been glamored up and packaged into fake plastic.

[karynnj]

23. So true

This sounds like what Kerry was saying in his Chamber of Commerce speech last week - http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/10/28/kerry_voices_frustration_with_us_political_scene/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

I watched most of the coverage of the first two days of the JFK convention on CBS at the Paley Center (formerly the broadcast museum) in NYC last summer on its anniversary. It was absolutely fascinating on both a political level - I never knew that Eleanor Roosevelt opposed him being the Presidential nominee - and the media level.

I wonder how we can get back to a time where different ideas can be debated as different ideas - not distorted exaggerated political slogans. Reading your comments, it was painful to think that one half of the 2004 Presidential debates sound like you described - the other not so much so. Even though the media conceded the debate, they did so with the a message that - they weren't important - that the slogans were. I don't even want to think of the possibility of an Obama/Palin debate.

[saltpoint]

25. Agree. It was a shockingly civil exchange compared

with today's freakfests and alley fights.

And how tentative the media were then compared to the agenda-laden propagandists they are these days.

I have an ear for Democrats, and there is no better Democrat in a debate than John Kennedy versus Nixon.

Great post.

[tanyev]

26. It's disheartening to see news broadcasts from back then, too.

Really demonstrates how crappy our media is now.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[zulchzulu]

30. Today's Tea Party and Religious Right would have destroyed Nixon if he was running

Hell, he mentioned that taxes might be needed to stop inflation and pay for needed programs! Off with his head!

:sarcasm:

[Crunchy Frog]

40. If Nixon were running today, he'd be called a communist.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[bertman]

28. Rec. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

29. Yes, I remember when things were different. Loved listening to Bobby Kennedy speak. I remember

when both parties covered the full range from liberals to conservatives, with a bunch of moderates in the middle. When debates were just that without the questions being given out in advance. I remember my Republican-leaning parents taking my sister and I into town (population 6000) to hear Nixon speak from the back of a train car. There were no metal detectors, loyalty pledges, or protest signs.

I also think that about 25 to 30% of the American population today couldn't even follow the course of the debates from the 50's and 60's. We all know how much they hate anybody who can speak on a subject for more than one sentence.

[zulchzulu]

34. Links to the debate, which was 50 years ago...

Second debate/audio:
http://www.archive.org/details/Kennedy-Nixon_second_debate_10_7_1960
http://www.archive.org/download/Kennedy-Nixon_second_debate_10_7_1960/Kennedy-Nixon_second_debate_10_7_1960.mp3

Video:
http://thefilmarchived.blogspot.com/2010/10/john-f-kennedy-richard-nixon_24.html

[BlueMTexpat]

35. What I remember most about the Kennedy-Nixon debates

was how the phrase "Quemoy and Matsu" was bandied about. Perhaps it is because when I was growing up in MT at the time, there was a numerically small but rabidly hysterical John Birch Society group there - every bit the equivalent of the craziest Tea Bag groups today. They literally frothed at the mouth in their manifest hatred of "Commies" and they hated JFK almost as much. These were the kind of people who actually cheered when JFK was assassinated. I actually witnessed some of that and was appalled. They were very scary - and their ideological descendents are still as scary as hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsu_Islands

Both Kennedy and Nixon were better educated about the world generally than most US politicians today (probably better-educated on the whole, IMO) and both could actually speak English coherently - something that seems to escape a large number of Repub candidates these days. They also knew how to argue persuasively. But I was not then and have never since admired Nixon in any way, his shifty eyes showed his true soul.

But make no mistake, rabidly insane Tea-Bagger-types were with us even then. The major difference is that they were not aided and abetted in their insanity by supposed mainstream figures and most especially not by the three major networks at the time, each of which actually reported news for the most part. There was also no cable. But they did also have their wealthy backers. The Koch Brothers of the era were well-represented in the JBS movement by the Hunt family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Hunt

[eilen]

38. Most people and notably the press

knew better that to take them seriously and did not cover them as to give the Birchers legitamacy.

I think the blame could be placed on the McCain campaign for giving Palin legitimacy. If it weren't for him, she'd still quietly be ruling her little fiefdom in Alaska, probably popping out another kid.

[Arkana]

39. Those were two very bright men on that stage that night.

Nixon was a psychopath, but he was no dummy.

[Qutzupalotl]

41. I liked when Nixon told Kennedy to man up.

Classic!

...maybe I'm not remembering that right.

[Raine]

43. Raygun really drug the debates down. I remember his

smart assed debate remark to President Carter "there you go again". x( I couldn't imagine Nixon or Kennedy making a remark like that while debating.

[Mimosa]

44. We need the Fairness Doctrine back. n/t

[digidigido]

45. Reagan changed that. I was thinking about that while walking

the dogs. "there you go again Jimmy" in the Carter Reagan Debate. No One Called him on it
That line changed the tone of political discourse in this country. Just another thing to thank
Rough Rider Ronnie for