Our dysfunction is being noticed overseas

[Nancy Waterman]

This is from a painfully true article in Der Spiegel about America's decline

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,726447,00.html

America has long been a country of limitless possibility. But the dream has now become a nightmare for many. The US is now realizing just how fragile its success has become -- and how bitter its reality. Should the superpower not find a way out of crisis, it could spell trouble ahead for the global economy.

snip

The United States of 2010 is dysfunctional, but in new ways. The entire interplay of taxes and investments is out of joint because a 16,000-page tax code allows for far too many loopholes and because solidarity is no longer part of the way Americans think. The political system, plagued by lobbyism and stark hatred, is incapable of reaching consistent or even quick decisions.

The country is reacting strangely irrationally to the loss of its importance -- it is a reaction characterized primarily by rage. Significant portions of America simply want to return to a supposedly idyllic past. They devote almost no effort to reflection, and they condemn cleverness and intellect as elitist and un-American, as if people who hunt bears could seriously be expected to lead a world power. Demagogues stir up hatred and rage on television stations like Fox News. These parts of America, majorities in many states, ignorant of globalization and the international labor market, can do nothing but shout. They hate everything that is new and foreign to them.

[xchrom]

1. Recommend

[n2doc]

2. The graphs tell the story

Especially this one


And this:

[denimgirly]

11. WOW! America is losing its Power BIG TIME!!

Unless America begins to really be Progressive focused it is pretty much on a course to 3rd world...
And SHIT...i feel bad for Canadians since they will be stuck next to 3rd world country which will likely devalue their country too.

[molly77]

29. Facebook friend was in Europe over the summer

She said people were angry at our GOVT. FOR TREATING IT'S CITIZENS SO BADLY. Sorry for the caps.She also said Europeans had so so much more in the way of safety nets i.e. old age.

[RichGirl]

37. And when we sneak across the Canadian border....

...for jobs to support our families....I hope they are kinder to us than we have been to Mexicans.

[MedicalAdmin]

44. They won't be

But of course it is easy for canadiens to spot Americans . Arrogance and a complete inability to speak the lingo and accent.

Well stand out like the fools we are.

[rambler_american]

57. I can speak

a little Canadian, eh.

[Cobalt-60]

100. I'll have some back bacon and a Molson, eh?

I'll be on the Chesterfield watching Strange Brew.
I should have moved before I was too old in 04.

[flyarm]

137. Do you have your Touque? you need it now!

[whathehell]

63. Speak for yourself

..I'm neither arrogant nor "ignorant" and neither are any my friends or family...I'm sorry if you can't say the same.

If you are, in fact, American, you should know better than to paint with so broad a brush...and since you're speaking of "ignorance", you might consider learning how to spell "Canadian".:eyes:





FYI, Canadians have traditionally held a twenty percent higher rate of immigration to the USA than the reverse...Maybe we're not quite so loathsome after all.

[crim son]

76. I grew up in Canada, and am Canadian.

While Americans are not universally considered loathsome, they are considered illiterate, incurious and obese. I've lived in the States for more than twenty-five years and I know that these stereotypes are just that, stereotypes. But how do these stereotypes arise? Heh. Yep, that's right.

[whathehell]

107. Stereotypes arise in the same way ALL stereotypes arise...

With a little truth, a little ignorance, and a need to believe in them...Throw in a little envy, and you've got it made.


People always need an "other" to look down on...Except at Du where many, it seems,

are happy to look down on themselves.:eyes:


P.S. Thanks for the "heads up" on Canadadian attitudes. My SO and I were thinking of visiting there again..This just confirms our earlier resolve to keep our tourist dollars at home.

We do have more to see, after all. B-)

[tavalon]

66. Actually, I'm pretty good at it

I have an ear for the dialect and am able to mimic it with surprising ease, surprising because I don't, as a rule pick up accents. I lived for 20+ years in the deep south and have no discernible accent. If my partners had as in demand jobs as I do, we'd already be living there.

[eridani]

86. How about a nice maple leaf sticker on the luggage, eh? n/t

[txlibdem]

139. Kinder?

Ronny Raygun threw open the doors for unlimited illegal immigration, gave amnesty which has been repeated 3 times now, emaciated all the laws (or the enforcement) against hiring illegal workers. And the illegals who did get jobs here are paid between 3 and 50 times what they would make in their own land for the same work.

Hell. I can only HOPE that Canada throws out the red carpet like the US has for illegals.

[RichGirl]

153. I know that most....

...members of our government would probably vote for amnesty if it didn't hurt them in an election. It's the few crazies and a lot of the American people who would like to round them up, load them on a cattle truck and haul them back to Mexico...and then construct a 50 foot electric wall with a moat and armed guards shoulder-to-shoulder ready to shoot men, women, children and pet parakeets who set foot on precious American soil.

[Hell-A Liberal]

191. word.

Packing my bags as we type...just in case!

[jwirr]

64. You are right but unless we quit the damn practice of making everything

overseas we doing exactly what the new world order people want us to do. Globalization will not work with strong nations. In order for it to work nations have to take the back seat to corporations. This is a recipe for hell.

[whathehell]

114. Awww..

I wouldn't cry for Canada yet..They have only about a tenth of our population and have continuously been about twenty percent MORE inclined to immigrate to the States rather than the reverse.

When that statistic starts inverting, you might be able to start talking "third world".


Until then, I'd say the reports of our demise are premature!.:eyes:

[RichGirl]

154. I guess we'll know we are a third world country...

...when the Canucks don't want to come here anymore. And when the Mexicans don't want to come...then we are doomed....

[whathehell]

160. I guess...

but that hasn't happened yet.

Are you hoping to see America become a "third world country"?

You sound like you're counting on it.:eyes:

[pattmarty]

116. Yeah, and think about all those "Amerigos" illegally crossing that.........

..........frozen border to go north for free healthcare AND jobs.:sarcasm:

[Hawkowl]

22. Stupid stereotypical graphs!

Obama says outsourcing is a stereotype, a myth if you will.

[LooseWilly]

99. Outsourcing is a stereotype? What does that even mean?

Just because Obama said it, doesn't mean it makes sense... seriously.

[Hawkowl]

142. Unfortunately, I agree

The president makes no sense when he's talking about the economy in general. I'm mystified by his earnest bullshit.

[pattmarty]

117. You forgot to use this:

:sarcasm:

[pampango]

111. The decline in manufacturing jobs has happened in all developed countries (some worse than US).

In the United States (the red line), manufacturing as a share of total employment has fallen 15.5 percentage points in recent decades, from 26.4 percent of jobs in 1970 to 10.9 percent in 2008. In some other countries the decline has been even steeper. In Britain, for example, the share of employment held by manufacturing has fallen 21.9 percentage points in the last few decades, from 33.9 percent in 1971 to 12 percent in 2008.

There are several generally accepted explanations for these trends. They include productivity growth and new technologies; the rise of the service-sector economy; and the shift of manufacturing jobs to areas of the world where labor is cheaper."

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/manufacturing-around-the-world

Germany has also seen a huge decrease in its manufacturing employment and Australia has an even smaller percentage of workers in manufacturing than the US.

[XemaSab]

206. These graphs are misleading; the bottom of the graph is not at 0 making decline look more dramatic

n/t

[glinda]

3. K & R

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. Thank you.

:dem:

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. As much as we like the general condemnation,

I would like to hear specifics about what how much more we're suppose to give on the global market, since we hit a major vein with that outsourcing business.

[elleng]

6. We 'like' the condemnation? How about, we recognize it as accurate.

'Give' on the global market? How about recognising that it IS, and as POTUS is doing, devising approaches to living with it successfully.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I don't disagree that Obama is doing the right thing by getting back

some of those jobs. But until those jobs are on our streets, I will continue to be skeptical.

[elleng]

8. I hope you recognize I hope that its a process, takes effort, negotiating, cajoling,

NEGOTIATING seems to be a dirty word around here, sometimes.

:-(

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. Nothing wrong with negotiating.

I just want to see it happen. It will change the discourse when it does. Shut-up his critics. Including me, and I would be fine with that.

[elleng]

13. One 'problem' with negotiating is that the back and forth can't practically be broadcast,

just won't work that way.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Then, let's hope he hits a few homeruns soon.

We minorities know that we have to be superstars in order to shut them up. But if we are even marginal, they will slaughter us like we're dogs.

[elleng]

16. Yes, but/and will take time for success to appear, NOT like homeruns

that we see instantly. Economy IS moving, and with some help could do so more quickly, but won't happen quickly enough. The slaughter, however, is so big and loud. x(

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elleng]

36. and 'm*f*kr' and suchlike do the trick!

What a mess we're in!

:freak:

[RichGirl]

41. Oh dear!!!

If HE did THAT...there's only one thing I would want to happen and it has nothing to do with negotiation!!

(Sorry Michelle)

[rury]

54. That's what I'm talkin' about!

But not for you...for me!!!
If I can get that lucky, no apologies to anyone!

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. What negotiating?

Our side: We'd like 'this'.

Other side: Can't have it.

Our side: OK.

End of negotiations.

[JDPriestly]

90. The only way we can negotiate with third world countries that have incredible

surpluses of dispensable, cheap labor is to impose very high value added taxes. Europe does better than we do in the global market because of its extremely high value added taxes.

Germany charges a 19% value added tax rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

That is in addition to an income tax rate of up to 45%

The rate of income tax in Germany ranges from 0% to 45%. The German income tax is a progressive tax, which means that the average tax rate (i.e., the ratio of tax and taxable income) increases monotonically with increasing taxable income. Moreover, the German taxation system warrants that an increase in taxable income never results in an decrease of the net income after taxation. The latter property is due to the fact that the marginal tax rate (i.e., the tax paid on one euro additional taxable income) is always below 100%.

Income tax rate in 2010
No income tax is charged on the basic allowance, which is €8,004 for unmarried persons and €16,008 for jointly assessed married couples. Beyond this threshold, the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 14% to 24% for a taxable income of €13,469 (€26,938 for married couples). In the subsequent interval up to a taxable income of €52,881 (€105,762 for married couples), the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 24% to 42%. The last change to the occurs at a taxable income of €250,730 (€501,460 for married couples) when the marginal tax rate jumps from 42% to 45%. The course of the marginal tax rate and the resulting average tax rate are depicted in the graph to the right.

Solidarity surcharge
On top of income tax, the so-called solidarity surcharge (Solidaritaetszuschlag) is levied at a rate of 5.5% of the income tax for higher incomes. Up to €972 (€1,944 for married couples) annual income tax, no solidarity surcharge is levied. Above this threshold, the solidarity surcharge rate increases continuously until it reaches 5.5% when the annual income tax is €1,340.69 (€2,681.38 for married couples).
For example, if €10000 income tax result from a certain annual taxable income, a solidarity surcharge of €550 will be levied on top. As a result, the tax payer owes the taxation office €10550.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany

So that is how you compete in the global economy. You charge a very high tax rate, a rate high enough to eliminate excess consumption and waste by consumers.

That's probably the last thing Americans want to hear, but it is the truth. That's how you remain competitive in the global market. You discourage people from buying the junk and crumby services that come from low-wage countries.

[whathehell]

136. You are right, JD..

Thom Hartmann talks about this all the time -- Reinstating tariffs.

I'm old enough to remember a time when foreign good were more expensive than things made here..Of course we actually MADE things here then.

I have no idea as to what the "official" excuse from the PTB for not doing this is, do you?

I'd be interested in knowing.

[elleng]

143. I don't see us negotiating as to the items you suggest,

created by cheap labor; impossible to make up for the disparity, imo. But other items/technologies present different opportunities, and I expect this is where POTUS is heading now.

[Skittles]

73. LOLOLOL

what dream world do you live in?

[JDPriestly]

89. Because it would take too long to do that.

We cannot live successfully with the global market.

If you disagree with me, how in the world do you propose that Americans live successfully with the global market? Please go into detail. I have time.

[MindandSoul]

134. We better learn to live with the global market. . .because if we don't we

will be completely isolated and we will totally lose our market anyway!

So, whether or not living with the global market is something we would "prefer" to do, or whether or not it is something "hard" to do is irrelevent. At this point, we are no longer the "deciders" of what the rest of the world will do or the direction it will take. . .they are now ahead of us in so many areas (except maybe military. . .big deal!).

We have already lost our place at the HEAD of the table of negociations. . . Now, we need to decide if we want to take our place at the ROUND table, or take our toys and go home. . .The ROUND table will survive with or without the U.S.

The question is: Could we survive by ourselves at the kitchen table???

[elleng]

144. Right, was gonna say, if we don't live w global market, we JUMP OFF!

POTUS a good one to figure best strategy, and I trust him to do so.

[political_Dem]

9. K and R. The GOP will make us the laughing stock of the world.

And they don't give a damn.

[flamingdem]

12. Dysfuncion is RIGHT - NO COUNTRY will take us seriously as leaders w repuke economic ideas nt

[elleng]

14. as their 'economic ideas' are neither 'economic' or 'ideas,' but b.s.>power.

[Hydra]

17. Capitalism should be dead

As we're looking at where it takes us. Nice place, isn't it?

"The American Dream" is that one day, with your strong, individual efforts, you can become a rich asshole and have other people work for you.

Is that really so much better than having a sustainable, not expanding economy(and population) where no one has to work as much to have a good standard of living, and we don't have to overdraw on our environment to do it?

Just me thinking out loud. I'm pretty sure we'll burn everything down instead because a small group of assholes told us it was the only way.

I wonder if that's how the last tree on Easter Island fell? "We had to do it."

[CrispyQ]

24. Consuming our ecosystem for the profit of a few.

And too many don't even see it. They blindly follow a path that is going to lead to seriously bad times for humans.

[elzenmahn]

104. "It's Called The American Dream...

...'cause you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin

[dotymed]

118. Capitalism

is the same a Feudalism. I don't see a difference, especially with our current form of capitalism.

[MindandSoul]

126. I agree. Today's capitalism is not "free market" anymore. . .it is "manipulated market!"

[Hydra]

145. "Free Market" was always a myth

No regulation = monopolies = what we have today = pure capitalism

It's repellent, it's disgusting, and I'm actually glad we're seeing it in its full "glory"- anyone who could want such a poisonous system and call it "moral" should be laughed out of the room.

[golfguru]

18. The rumors of American demise are overly exaggerated.

We STILL have the largest GDP in the world.
We STILL have the constitution alive and well.
We STILL have the most productive work force in the world.
We still create the most innovative medical products.
We STILL are the real military superpower in the world.
I could go on and on.

It will be a very long time before any other country can
overtake us, everything considered.

[BeyondGeography]

25. The same Constitution that created the Senate, where the country goes to die?

Yippee.

[golfguru]

28. Yes it is a check on both parties.

How would you like the RWingers pushing everything down our throats if they score 51 seats in next election?

[BeyondGeography]

30. You need 60 votes to do that

Haven't you been paying attention?

Of course, the R's do have the discipline to get it done with 60, give them that.

The Senate is an unrepresentative, hidebound body of dysfunction. Hardly something I'd hold up as a bulwark against decline.

Same goes for our military, another bogus source of "consolation."

[dotymed]

122. I "support our troops"

just like I support most people. I recently moved (back) to a large military area. It is amazing to see that so many of our troops (like so many Americans) are unable to think. Seriously, I have talked to many troops from privates to officers and they mostly seem pleasant, but when it comes to simple logic.....nada. I am not talking politics. I am talking everyday living.
Idiocracy........

[drmeow]

32. The productivity

is largely due to working longer hours. Europeans have a higher rate of productivity per hour worked than US workers.

[golfguru]

42. Europe has a chronic unemployment rate near 10% for years.

I spent 2 weeks in Europe last year visiting Spain, France, Portugal & Italy. Living conditions, prices of goods and services and congestion are far worse than good ole USA.
Sorry, Europe failed to impress me.

[druidity33]

68. I'm sure 2 weeks

was adequate to determine the quality of life issues that tend to consistently rank the US behind those 4 countries in most key indicators (birth rate, education, crime rate, health care, citizen happiness, poverty, etc)...

:eyes:

[golfguru]

69. Oh yes 2 weeks was plenty to see their houses,

their grocery store prices, their restaurant prices, their hotel prices, their transportation costs, their trains (Italian trains are the pitts), prices of clothes and shoes and other everyday items. Most people live in apartments (rented or owned), very few single family homes. And scooters is the most popular form of personal vehicle. And I know Europeans do not earn 2 or 3 times American wages.

Even a large airport such as Heathrow in London does not even have a water fountain, and a cold salami sandwich costs $10+.

Oh yes got a good whiff of how people live there. No thanks, I am never moving there unless I have at least $10 million plus. I have not noticed any mass migration of Americans moving to Europe with their grand quality of life, have you?

[JDPriestly]

95. Give the Republicans a few months in charge of the House and

you will see what a bad economy and high prices really look like. The Republicans plan to balance the budget -- Just watch how they do it. Your life will get worse. The lives of the rich will get much better. That's their plan for balancing the budget.

As a tourist, you see the most expensive areas of a country. Airports are notoriously expensive. When you live on the economy, you discover that the local restaurants are much cheaper than those in the tourist areas. That goes for everything.

[wickerwoman]

103. Two weeks is obviously not enough time.

Sorry, but your observations and conclusions are patently ridiculous.

Europeans tend to live in apartments because their cities are designed on principles of intensification and walkability. Most have metropolitan urban limits to prevent suburban sprawl and preserve green spaces around the city. Many Europeans don't need cars and wouldn't want to live in a detached family home even though many of them can afford it because it is environmentally irresponsible and absolutely kills street culture. They have much less obesity because cities are designed to allow people to walk or cycle to anything that they need.

They drive scooters because it is a waste to own a car that you have to park for 23 hours so you can drive it for one. They don't pave over massive areas to create driveways and parking lots for cars that are barely used (also environmentally irresponsible). Plus scooters get much better gas mileage than cars (which is important in Europe because gas prices reflect the actual cost of gas in environmental and social terms better than prices in the US which are kept artificially low by wars and dodgy drilling practices).

Transportation costs and quality vary from country to country. Trams in Prague service the whole city and are practically free. Copenhagen and the Netherlands have world-class light rail systems *far* in advance of anything you will find in the US.

Europeans don't earn more, but then they don't have to pay back student loans because university educations are either free or massively subsidized. And they don't have to pay for health insurance or health care costs. And they get four week mandatory paid vacations and one year paid maternity leave. Some countries have 35 hour work weeks.

So yeah, salaries are a bit lower and taxes are higher. Would you seriously mind earning a bit less take home pay if you didn't need a car, didn't have to pay back student loans, didn't have any major health related costs, and could work fewer hours and have longer vacations?

Your most absurd statement is the salami sandwich in Heathrow airport. That's like going to Newark airport, noticing that the Toblerone costs $7 a bar and deciding that quality of life in the US sucks. Oh, and lots of US airports don't have water fountains either.

Here's a list of the 100 most livable cities in the world:
http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/livable_cities_worldwide.html

The first American cities are San Francisco and Honolulu at #27 and #28. Seven of the top ten cities are in Europe.

If tons of Americans aren't moving to Europe it's because they have much stricter immigration laws than we do. Because health care is free, you have to pass a medical exam proving you won't be a burden on the system right away. And often you have to provide proof of employment, language proficiency, no criminal record, etc. Many countries won't take you full stop unless you can prove you had a grandparent that came from there.

[a la izquierda]

120. Thank you ma'am

You put it better than I started to.

[dbmk]

140. 6 weeks paid vacation in my contract

I don't even have a car or a scooter. (ok, I am looking at buying one now - but I am 35, so I have gone a long time without one). Not for lack of financial ability. Just seemed stupid, given my transportation needs. Especially given the 185% luxury tax on them.

My salary is a bit higher than I would get for the equivalent job in the US, of which I pay effectively just under 50% taxes on. Offset quite a bit by my free education, free healthcare(minus dental which is only subsidized to some degree), no nagging calls from the local fire brigade or police station asking for a check, 35 hour work week and social security. We might not have the same amount of dirt cheap crap from walmart available, but then again, the minimum wage is governed in part by that - or the cause of. So when you pay that little extra for your sandwich, the guy who sold it to you can have one too for dinner. Bit of tough luck for you guys coming here. But I do love coming to the US where I can get 3 pairs of Levis for the price of one here. :)

And the claim the there are not many single family homes is ridiculous. Yes, we don't have as much space pr citizen in many countries as you do - and suburban areas are heavily regulated to keep green zones close to the big cities - so yes, we might tend towards a higher apartments to house ratio. But "very few single family homes" as a characterization of Europe is indeed patently ridiculous.

Expensive, yes. As a Copenhagener I can't argue with that. Yet somehow we manage to keep happy and our kids with a low illiteracy rate, and to a high degree food in our bellies(too much in my case, to be honest). And have world class public transportation. I have what I need and quite a bit of what I want. And still able to put money aside. Granted, I have a well paying job, but nothing outrageous. Incredible, given golfgurus account.

Europe is of course diverse and yes, Italy might have shitty trains (They also have some decent ones, though, in my experience). But to form that kind of an opinion of "Europe" after 2 weeks spread over 4 mediterannean countries(4 days pr country, lol) is just funny.

[whathehell]

163. Please...

Don't presume to speak for everyone.

"If tons of Americans aren't moving to Europe it's because they have much stricter immigration laws than we do. Because health care is free, you have to pass a medical exam proving you won't be a burden on the system right away. And often you have to provide proof of employment, language proficiency, no criminal record, etc. Many countries won't take you full stop unless you can prove you had a grandparent that came from there".

I've spent lots of time in Europe and I like many things about it...But I have NO desire to live there. :shrug: Sorry.

[wickerwoman]

165. I was rebutting the specific argument

that Europe was not a desirable location to live based on the fact that not many Americans were moving there. And if that's not "speaking for everyone", I don't know what is.

That argument does not take into account the fact that many Americans who do want to move there face considerable obstacles.

Your lack of interest in moving there does not in any way refute (or even really respond to) my argument.

But you seem to have a lot less problem with people "speaking for everyone" when they happen to agree with your particular biases.

And as I have no desire to be dragged into what I am sure will be a completely pointless argument with you, good day.

[whathehell]

167. You never even provided links for your assertions...Where might these "tons of Americans" be?

You're full of it, dear..So "good day" to you too..:eyes:

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[golfguru]

172. So Europe does not have many illegal immigrants?

That alone must save them a ton of money in providing services.

[whathehell]

176. You need to do the research, lol.

Google is your friend.

[MindandSoul]

188. No, Europe has a lot of immigrants and they provide services to all of them. If you live there, you

receive services.
In fact, if you are a tourist in England, and you break a leg, they will admit you to a hospital and give you all the care you need for free.

[golfguru]

190. Actually I was not referring to tourists

I was talking about on going costs for services
provided to illegal immigrants who live here.

Maternity hospital service
Emergency hospital service
Primary education K thru 12
Food Stamps
Subsidized college tuition
Criminals in prison

All of above services are provided at no cost to illegal
immigrants and subsidized by tax payers.

If Europe is stricter on who is allowed to stay then they do not have to bear these costs.

[MindandSoul]

194. Yes, the whole of Europe is dealing with a lot of illegal immigration

But, generally, they have been more willing to integrate illegal immigrants into their society (although there are a LOT of cultural issues involved, since at this stage, MANY of the illegal immigrants are Muslims).

One exemple, in 2009, Belgium (a very small country with only 9 to 10 millions people) have "integrated" 25,000 illegal immigrants and made them totally legal, with all the rights to work and eligible for ALL services.

A link to this information: http://www.euractiv.com/en/socialeurope/belgium-legalise-25000-immigrants/a...

[golfguru]

171. We live here in Clark county ... the most livable place we found

There is no state income tax, there is no sales tax across
the Columbia river in Portland, real estate taxes are very reasonable, auto licence fees are under $45, electricity from hydro power on Columbia is ridiculously cheap. And the weather is mild, it is green everywhere, there are no tornadoes, no earthquakes and no hurricanes. OK so there are lot of rainy days but it is mostly light drizzle. There is no tax on food and meds. Great shopping in uncrowded malls.

[golfguru]

173. Just a note--Heathrow is probably the largest and busiest airport

in UK. SO you can't compare it with Newark. Our airport
here in Portland is simply gorgeous. Great facilities, not
overcrowded, lots of great food outlets and shops and short walks to get in and out of the airport.

[wickerwoman]

197. Newark airport

is one of the three airports that services New York City. It's one of the top thirty busiest airports in the world (close to the top twenty in 2007 and 2006).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_busiest_airports_by_passenger_traffic

I've lived in New York and London and visited Portland. Newark is a decent approximation of "America's Heathrow".

All of which is really quibbling since the essential point is that it's absurd to judge an entire continent's standard of living based on the price of a sandwich in the airport. Find me a country in the world where the prices of airport food aren't at least double or triple what a resident would pay to make the same item at home.

[golfguru]

204. Believe it or not but Portland, OR airport has

many fast food outlets and their prices are on par
with prices out in the city. So if one does not wish
to pay $10 for a salami sandwich, $5 here will buy you
a small cheeseburger, fries & milk.

[golfguru]

205. Believe it or not but Portland, OR airport has

many fast food outlets and their prices are on par
with prices out in the city. So if one does not wish
to pay $10 for a salami sandwich, $5 here will buy you
a small cheeseburger, fries & milk.

[druidity33]

112. you talk a lot about prices...

ever think the prices sucked for you because the Dollar is so low? And, you know, i spent a YEAR in another country and couldn't adequately describe the socio-economic/quality of life structure of its inhabitants compared to the US beyond,... "it's very different".

Obviously you think America is the bees' knees, which is fine. But there are all sorts of OBJECTIVE standards that prove your ANECDOTAL evidence wrong. And saying you really understand a country after only being there 3 or 4 days is ridiculous.

As for Heathrow, you're rating the quality of a country based on one of its Airports? Oh and apparently there are water fountains at Terminals 4 and 5 at least. I always take an empty bottle and fill it in the restroom, personally, so i don't know why you'd need a fountain... big vector for disease.

As for mass migrations, no, but studies have shown we are losing our best and brightest to overseas moves. Something about being able to find a job and have healthcare...

:shrug:

[MindandSoul]

146. Do you realize that the high prices in Europe appear this high because of the low value of the

Dollars?

Italian trains may not compare to first class airline. . .but THEY DO have trains, and THEY ARE being used! And, by the way, in most of Europe, trains are FREE or NEARLY free to anyone over 62!!!

I noticed that you didn't say anything about the TGV or other fast speed trains that criss cross Europe. . .and that are beautiful and very efficient.

There are a large number of people living in high rises, or smaller apartment buildings. ..but then, they much prefer that option than living under a bridge!
And there are a LOT Of single home. . .a little further away from the big cities (not unlike what we encounter around NY or any big cities in the U.S.)

I don't blame you for making such mistake in judgment. . .2 weeks to visit all these countries probably gave you just enough time to see the surrounding of the airports and, maybe, a couple of "tourist traps" where the price of food and everything else is greatly inflated as compare to the way a neighborhood store (or large surface store)!

Just one little exemple: A 1 litre (a little over a quart) bottle of red wine in Italy probably cost about $3.00 in a neighborhood store, but if you go to a supplier and fill a 5 litre (about 1 gallon and 1/2) it will cost you $5.00.

A cup of coffee in a neighborhood cafe in Belgium will cost you about $1.50 (it also always includes either a chocolate or a cookie), but it will cost you as much as $5.50 at the airport!

A glass of wine in a cafe in Italy will cost you about $2.00 (and it will include chunks of cheese, or olives, or crackers). . .but if you order a Coke. . .you can expect to pay about $4.00!

Actually, it's not that different from what we experience right here in the U.S. . . .

[whathehell]

164. "The homeless level in western Eurorope is at its highest level in 50 years.."

..with homeless levels not seen since the end of World War II…"

http://www.youthxchange.net/main/b236_homeless-p.asp

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2003/0210/home...

[golfguru]

169. Excellent information, thanks for posting

and basically what you are saying is stay away from
tourist traps and shop in the neighborhood stores.

However I noticed gasoline prices were very high no
matter where we went. Trains are very cheap. We used trains from Rome to Civitavechhia and back and were very bad. They were always late, and very few trains and no one
can tell you what time the next one arrives. And the trains
were so overcrowded, our party of 4 barely managed to get
into it each time.

Our travel was mostly by motor coach with many stops. The
only area I fell in love with was the French Riviera where home prices start at million and a half dollars. So when my net worth crosses north of $10 mil I am moving there (means never lol)

You will be surprised how many different locations we visited, including visits to small towns such as Sintra in Portugal. The lean tower in Pisa is beautiful but a real tourist trap. A 5" pizza will cost you $10 and is barely 4 or 5 bites. And you can't use the restroom unless you buy something in restaurants.

[MindandSoul]

186. Yes, I know what you mean (about having to purchase something to use the bathrooms!

I am amazed you found time to go to Sintra!!! Did you visit the castle??? I love Portugal. . .spend many vacations there (2 months every year) when I was a teenager. We stayed on a little beach about 40 miles north of Sintra/Lisbon. . .near a town called Peniche!
I still have very good friends who live in Alenquer, about 25 miles North East of Lisbon.

I hope some day you can go back and spend some RELAXING time in each country!
And, yes. . .avoid tourist traps!

[golfguru]

193. The summer palace at Sintra was amazing

It is maintained in the same condition it was when Vasco de Gama received his commission to explore the world at this very palace. And yes we spent a better part of afternoon in Sintra and I remember eating some very fine pastries in one of the many quaint restaurants there.

[MindandSoul]

195. I know exactly what kind of pastry you are referring to! Portugal is famous

for their flaky pastry with a sort of "pudding" inside! The closest thing we have here is Pepperidge farm filo dough!

[Quantess]

81. There are several countries in Europe, and some of them have lower unemployment than the USA.

I know for certain that Sweden has much lower unemployment than we have, and so does Germany. I'm sure there are more, but those are two that I know for sure have lower unemployment.

[golfguru]

185. German Unemployment over last 10 years exceed US rate

German unemployment rate over last 7 years is close to 9%
http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/unemployment_rate.html

US unemployment rates over last 10 years..aprox 6%.
http://www.salary.com/Articles/ArticleDetail.asp?part=par1311

SO you are right in that current rate is higher in US but longer periods show worse unemployment in Germany.

[MindandSoul]

201. Yes, but even if I repeat myself I will say again that the level of unemployment

in Europe doesn't affect people's life and the country economy as much as it does in the U.S. BECAUSE of the safety net (including extended unmployment benefits) that allow people not to lose EVERYTHING if they are out of work!

[JDPriestly]

92. Our unemployment rate is much higher than it appears to be.

It always has been like that.

Europeans have long vacations.

The prices in Europe, believe it or not, are what protect them in the global market.

I posted above about German taxes -- 19% VAT plus up to 45% income taxes.

The taxes are high, but the people get a lot for them. Their governments don't literally blow up the German's tax payments in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The quality of life if you really live in Europe is quite high. Did you go as a tourist? Because if so you do not see the actual quality of life.

[eridani]

94. They fail to imprison 1% of their populations and employ large numbers of the rest

--to manage the lockups.

[pattmarty]

119. Excellent point.

[MindandSoul]

130. Sorry you feel that way! If you consider "living conditions" as being

several cars per households, several bathrooms per family, and a large number of square footage in houses that most people cannot afford. . .you are probably right!

I personally think of "living conditions" as being enough time to relax after a day's work, four weeks vacations per year (with double pay during those vacations), a sustainable, affordable living area that a family make into a home, rather than into a show place where each member of the family is isolated in his/her room in front of a non-stop TV or play station, and excellent public transportation that reduces the need for a second car, a "safety net" that assure that, even if one loses his/her job, one doesn't lose his/her health care, housing, and ability to feed their kids. . .
For me, all these are the determinants of good "living conditions!"

[golfguru]

175. Here is why I call our living conditions really good

We have a 1950 sq foot home with wonderful trees, bushes and green grass, we can see Portland lights across the Columbia river, the air is clean, we can't hear traffic noise, and yet we are only 15 minutes from Portland International airport. Our monthly electricity bill is $42, our cars cost $45 each for yearly license plate sticker renewal, we pay no state income tax in WA state, and 5 miles away across the river is sales tax free shopping in Oregon. Our property tax is under $3200 per year.

So we can afford 2 great vacations every year our favorite being 7 day ocean cruises. We could never live like this in Europe in our retiree income bracket.

[MindandSoul]

135. Yes, 10% may even be low! BUT, what you fail to say (or maybe you don't know abou this) is

that those 10%+ unemployed have a good safety net, including LONG TERM unemployment benefits (in some countries. . .unlimited unemployment benefits), National health care, and child benefits. . .

So that, even the unemployed are able to continue to participate in the economy. . .not only do they survive (I concede, with a tighten belt), but they can still retain some purchasing power.

[RichGirl]

155. Did you talk to any of the people living there???

I have lots of relatives in Germany and they don't live in huge houses and they drive their Mercedes for 2O years or longer...but they have a very good quality of life. They don't ever have to worry about healthcare, they get a lot of vacation time, they have wonderful public transportation...just to name a few benefits of Socialism. They really enjoy their lives: good food, good beer, friends, they love culture, go to museums, parks, concerts. They aren't obsessed with accumulating stuff.

Our national pastime is shopping...to the point that the newest addiction is hoarding and when it comes to food...we go for quantity, not quality...to the point where we become fat and unhealthy and then the stress over getting the proper healthcare makes us sicker. (I'm speaking in general terms of course...doesn't apply to all.) In other words....I wouldn't brag up the American way of life.

[golfguru]

184. What proves my theory more than anything else is this..

There are 100 times more Europeans who have immigrated
to Unites States compared to how many Americans have immigrated to Europe in the last 25 years. My theory is based on how many Europeans I have run into here versus I don't know more than 1 family who went to Europe to live. But they were originally from Norway and just went back for whatever reasons. I am sure if one takes the time to do research on this subject they will come up with more accurate answer. I just don't have the time for it.

[wickerwoman]

198. Please make the time to educate yourself,

starting with the difference between anecdotal and statistical evidence. Also the definition of "proof".

I personally know dozens of American expats who moved to Amsterdam and Prague for the legal pot alone. There's dozens of DUers who live in Europe (check out the Overseas Forum) including a number who have been posting on this thread. So you actually do know more than one family who has moved to Europe to live. (I've moved to New Zealand but I would have moved to Europe if I was better at foreign languages and the immigration requirements weren't so strict).

But that still doesn't prove anything because it is anecdotal. The plural of "anecdote" is not "fact". My personal experience does not represent objective truth and neither does yours. The fact that I know more than twenty American guys who moved to China does not create a "wave of US immigration to China" any more than the fact that you (probably) don't know anyone who has doesn't "prove" an opposite trend.

Searching "Americans moving to Europe" turns up 432,000,000 results. You're welcome to sift through them at your leisure. There are entire websites dedicated to helping people move overseas.

And again, Europe has much stricter immigration requirements than the US does. You cannot move to Ireland or Italy unless you can prove that one of your grandparents came from there. Many countries will not consider you if you are over 50, have diabetes, have ever had cancer, had so much as a DUI on your criminal record, can't speak their language fluently, don't work in a very specific industry, etc. New Zealand won't take you if you are too obese or if you have children with chronic health issues.

Even if statistically more Europeans are moving to America than Americans to Europe (adjusted for the fact that there are twice as many Europeans as Americans) you also have to consider the barriers thrown in the way in each case.

And on top of all of that immigration is not an infallible (or even a good) indicator of high quality of life. Most European countries provide a high quality of life (in the form of universal health care and other expensive entitlements) by sharply restricting immigration. So it's theoretically possible to find countries with extremely high quality of life and almost no legal immigration.

A much better indicator are things like infant mortality, literacy, homelessness rates, crime, hunger (particularly among children), poor health, average lifespan, etc. in all of which categories the US is falling behind many European countries.

[golfguru]

200. 1 Million+ LEGAL immigrants arrive in the United States EVERY YEAR!

Looks to me like US still attracts people from all over the world, many with high educations & skills. Which is perhaps why United States wins more Nobel Prizes than any other country.

[wickerwoman]

202. ...

a.) Only 15% of those immigrants come from Europe and most of them come from miserable Eastern European hellholes like the Ukraine and Albania, not the developed countries we're talking about when we discuss Europe's generally high quality of life.

b.) Repeat of last four paragraphs of my last post. Immigration is not a good indicator of quality of life.

c.) Number of Nobel Prizes is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with either immigration or quality of life.

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MindandSoul]

187. I totally agree with you! You seem to know the real story!

[proteus_lives]

39. +1

[populistdriven]

46. add all that up and subtract the debt and lack of political progress you aint got shit

[golfguru]

75. +100 on debt.

Our kids and grand kids are screwed for sure.

[Quantess]

83. Go ahead and keep telling yourself the USA is still the greatest country in the world.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I say you're in denial.

Of course, you are right about the USA being the biggest military superpower. We are still the richest country in the world, but look how we squander it-- on wars, occupations, and our bloated military.

Arguably, we are the hardest working people in the world, but most of us are also underpaid. Many don't make a living wage at 40 hours per week. I am proud of the American work ethic, but is the shabby treatment of US workers really something enviable?

We have stellar health care for those who can afford it, and who have access to it. But you're S.O.L. if you're uninsured (and sometimes even people who have insurance)!

The USA can do much better. Can we at least agree on that?

[whathehell]

113. Golfpro didn't say that...

although I knew some here, with knee-jerk predictability, would interpret it that way.

He simply listed some enduring strengths.:eyes:

[Quantess]

174. Don't roll your eyes at me.

And don't call my response knee-jerk. If you have anything of substance to add, please go ahead.

[whathehell]

178. I will do precisely that

if I care to....Sorry:hi:

[Quantess]

179. Whatever you like, superior one.

I see you bring several good arguments to the table. I deeply admire and respect you for your compelling debating skills. I really, really mean it! You're so smart and have such a winning way with people. :hi:

[whathehell]

181. Whatever, dear

At least I'm not foolish enough to pretend to authority I don't have.:hi:

[Quantess]

182. Oh, what authority would that be?

[whathehell]

183. The authority

to tell me what not to do with respect to eye rolling, knee jerking, etc.?

[golfguru]

177. I agree completely on health care

The HCR bill has made health care more expensive, not more affordable for MAJORITY of middle class Americans. here is why--

For profit private insurers (FPPI) get a gift of millions of additional paying customers, courtesy of middle class workers and all tax payers who will pay higher premiums and higher taxes.

There is not a single restraint on premium hikes by FPPI in the bill. The FPPI's are free to increase your premiums as high as necessary until their profit goals are met. Annual rate hikes as high as 34% are already showing up in this year with majority to reset higher on January 1st 2011.
Note that the average premium increase has been under 9% per year over last 10 years, BEFORE this HCR bill.

The HCR bill prohibits drug importation! WOW what a bonanza for big pharma! The bill does not require negotiations with big pharma on drug prices. Drug importation costs nothing to consumers.

No competition to FPPI from PUBLIC OPTION to keep rate hikes under control. This was the only effective means of restricting run away rate hikes.

Competition to FPPI from across the state lines by other FPPI's is prohibited in bill. So each state has it's FPPI operating as a monopoly without outside competition.
Including across state competition would cost nothing to consumers.

Nothing in the HCR bill to restrain frivolous malpractice suits which end up costing all consumers of health care more.

No wonder democrats all over the country running for election are running away from it and I can't blame them one bit. I have not seen too many Ads from democratic candidates running in 2010, touting their vote on HCR bill.
Beacuse they all know they caved to campaign cash over people's interest.

To be sure there are some very good things in the bill such as no cancellations and no rejections. However both of these are NOT mutually exclusive from the opposite of my list above.

[JDPriestly]

91. GDP is a ridiculous number.

In Europe, children start kindergarten at the age of 3, and the kindergarten is free. Putting your child in a kindergarten does not add to the GDP.

The free kindergarten means that the mother of a child over 3 can work a half-day and never have to pay a babysitter. No increase in the GDP there.

Universities are much cheaper. Far less increase in the GDP there.

When you go to the doctor, you don't pay a copay and virtually no charges for your medical treatment. No increase in the GDP there.

Scratch your nose in America and the GDP goes up. That is why we think we are so much richer than other countries while, in fact, we just have a much more oppressive economic system -- at least for anyone who is not at least a millionaire.

[eridani]

93. Except for such quaintnesses as habeas corpus

Why do we want to be a military superpower, anyway? All that accomplishes is impoverishing and killing the most vulnerable of our population because se can't afford to care for them. It is imperial overstretch that is driving us straight into the ground.

[elzenmahn]

106. It's only a matter of time, golfguru

It's only a matter of time before China overtakes us in the GDP dept.
And our constitution? Baby Bush called it a "damned piece of paper". And ask the "enemy combatants" kept in prisons without charge whether our Constitution still works - among the legions of examples of our constitution "working".
Yeah, our workforce is productive - but not compensated commesurate to our productivity, and our unmatched productivity isn't stopping corporations from shipping both blue and white collar jobs overseas.
Innovative Medical Products - available to the uninsured? Or those who can't afford to go to the Mayo Clinic for their care?
The real military superpower - how much longer is that going to last if our economy continues to be hollowed out? And considering the way our country has used it's military - to further corporate interest rather than national interest - I don't look at our superpower status as a source of pride.

[whathehell]

109. Thank you,...The rumors of American decline are not only

overly exaggerated...They are overly anticipated as well, it seem.:eyes:

[jillan]

19. Those pictures - heartbreaking.

[kath]

20. Thanks for this. "painfully true" is right.

It's very interesting to read an article from the outside looking in. So glad you posted it here for us.

[AlinPA]

21. The last paragraph of the snip in the OP tells it all, especially the last sentence:

"They hate everything that is new and foreign to them." This describes the republican-teabaggers. Perfectly.

[Odin2005]

23. The Empire falls...

[polichick]

31. Yep.

[ChiciB1]

138. I'Ve Been Using The Word ROME For So Long Now... It's Seems To Me

that far too many people still think "my country, right or wrong!" Today, once again I woke up depressed and my dreams, the ones I really have at night have been overly weird and awful.

My husband keeps talking 2012 not in the way that the movie portrays it, but as some sort of American eruption where people here finally say ENOUGH!! I'm not that optimistic, but then I'm not even sure it's a 2012 time frame.

When will we REALLY stop arguing and realize we are are close to walking off a cliff? Am I wrong, delusional or just way too cynical? All of the above? I sure wish I felt different anyway, but I DON'T!

[Crunchy Frog]

56. It will be ugly. I expect we will be far more graceless about it

than the Russians were.

[whathehell]

62. The Russians

being so "graceful".

By and large, the Russians were glad to be rid of their "way of life"...

Their "empire" impoverished them far more than ours has, or I expect, will.

[eridani]

96. Britain is a much better model for giving up imperialism n/t

[whathehell]

151. Except like most empires, they didn't "give it up" willingly.

[eridani]

189. No, but they did it graciously, and without too much domestic turmoil n/t

[rury]

58. And the bigger the are

the harder they fall.

[treestar]

26. Rec'd

Interesting piece.

[moondust]

27. K/R

[GETPLANING]

34. My friends and family in Spain have been saying this since 2000

Despite the narrative of the US corporate media, everyone else in the Civilized World knows the theft of the 2000 election was a coup by the right. They have watched in horror as the US has launched its wars on Afghanistan, Iraq, and indeed its own citizens. They see clearly what is happening with the corporate organized and funded Tea Party and the new radical Republican party.

They have seen it all before.

[NC_Nurse]

38. An excellent read. K&R

[whathehell]

40. It was "noticed" awhile ago..."Anticipated", in fact, might be a better word.

"The country is reacting strangely irrationally to the loss of its importance"

.:eyes: America isn't reacting to it's "loss of importance"...America is reacting to the loss of it's JOBS.

[pattmarty]

121. Jobs is a huge part, but what about the teaparty? They are according.......

........to research on the participants fairly well off and either have jobs OR a pension (which most here do not or will not have). So what the fuck are they "reacting" to? It is getting crazier and crazier here every day. Lindsay Graham (a supposedly "moderate" Republican) calling for us to neuter Iran? Shitkicker Perry calling for an "opt out" of SS in Tx. Fucking neanderthals calling for abolishing teaching evolution in schools. Yeah, it's all about jobs, genius.

[whathehell]

149. What about the Right Wing in Europe?...

Oh..You didn't know about that, did you?.

They're making a big comeback, unfortunately.

Here's a link to about TEN PAGES of entries on the subject:

Go ahead and check them out..You'll see we're not the only place with these miserable mofos.

[whathehell]

158. The Right Wing in Europe

There's about ten pages of citiations here.


http://www.google.com/search?q=right+wing+europe&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYE

[DeSwiss]

43. K&R

Booze, rage and justice in the participation age

It is now clear to me that the people's rage is a tool in the hands of the new electronic and digital corporate state. Its various channels, eddies and pools, regardless of type, can be directed toward all sorts of mischief and profit. Left or right, the angry throngs on both sides can be managed and directed. They can be sent chasing various injustices, denouncing evil characters on Wall Street, Times Square bombers, BP executives, or whatever, worked up into slobbering outrage over Sarah Palin, and thus kept divided and working against each other for the benefit of last gasp capitalism.

Once outside the furious drek of American political and economic life, and having finished the last book I will ever write, I found myself asking: "Why did the good in the American people not triumph? How can it be that so many progressive, justice-loving citizens failed? Their positions were well reasoned. The facts were indisputably on their side. Obviously, there was, and is, more going on than merely losing battles to demagoguery and meanness. Why do we lose the important fights so consistently? What has kept us from establishing a more just kingdom? Something is missing.

I think it is, in a word, the spiritual. The stuff that sustained Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and gave them the kind of calm deliberate guts we are not seeing today. I am not talking about religion, but the spirit in each of us, that solitary non-material essence, none the less shared by all humans because we are human. When we let our capitalist overlords cast everything in a purely material light -- as material gain or loss for one group or another -- we played the oppressor's game.

It was always a game with no vision. Just good guys, bad guys, pissed off people, or apathetic disenfranchised ones, amid one helluva lot of money changing hands. Mostly the wrong hands. That game drives us to the petty larcenies we perform against one another in the name employment, and the atrocities abroad to which none of us lay our rightful claim as beneficiaries of the empire's pillage. Our purposeful blindness to such things necessarily eliminates any universal vision. All the best ones are universal.

Yet down inside human beings is a love of justice. Honestly. The psyche seeks balance, and therefore seeks justice. Regardless of the perversion of its definition, and therefore the laws, by those who own nearly all of our country and damned well intend to own the rest, we know.

~ http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/07/waltzing.html">Joe Bageant, "Blogging Toward The Kingdom"

[riverbendviewgal]

72. Joe has it right and I am a big fan of his.

I am watching from above....in Canada/ I am a refugee from America ....came in the late 60's. Now a Canadian citizen and very happy I chose this path this country for my home
.
The last 10 years I watched my brother change his nickname from Happy to Bubba and he turned into a NJ redneck who hates Obama because of his colour.

2 years ago I was so happy for America...now it doesn't look good at all for America.

[DeSwiss]

78. Save me a spot. n/t

[Ramulux]

45. We are so pathetic

I long for the day when I can meet a European and not have to make excuses for my country. We are a global embarrassment and a danger to the progress being made by the rest of the industrialized world.

[whathehell]

49. Get off your knees, bro

and look around.

Europe is not the wise, humane nirvana too many "pathetic" yanks think it is...They have their OWN issues of racism, xenophobia and societal breakdown to deal with.

[Ramulux]

51. You are right

but there are also a lot of important areas of their society in which they do a lot better than us. At least Germany has a media that is halfway legitimate and that is enough for me to be envious of them. I wasn't implying it was some nirvana, I was just saying it sucks to have to listen to all the European people I know ask me about the ridiculous shit that goes on here and have to admit to it.

[whathehell]

61. I understand what you're saying.

..and I wish we were as "progressive" as they in a number of areas.

Having said that, one has to understand that the history of their countries is very different than ours.

During the 1960's, when Europe was still emerging from the aftermath of their second world war in less than thirty years, America had the biggest middle class in the world, as well as the highest number of college graduates.

Another problem in perception, I think, is the failure to really comprehend the difference in scale between America and their collection of smaller countries.

Example: The European Union has a population of about 420 million, but the EU is comprised of twenty-seven nations..Our one country of America has 300 million, about 3 quarters of the population of their twenty seven.

So when one points out "America"...They are talking about "one country" that is the size of about twenty five of their countries. The people in Britain or France may look around their countries and think that they have nothing to compare in size and ignorance to the Tea Party. However, our attitude toward Texas tea baggers is probably not much different from their attitude toward Bulgaria (also an EU country).

If one, for instance, talks about America having a "lot of crime"...It does..But does it have more than Twenty five European countries combined?

I think perceptions are often skewered by these differences.

[MindandSoul]

71. You're correct, at least to some extend. . .but until now that difference

was ignored by most Americans, because it fed their pride: For exemple, we are much too happy to celebrate winning the MOST gold medals at the Olympics, very rarely (almost never) mentionning that we are competing against INDIVIDUAL small countries who. . .together (as per exemple, the European Union) get MORE gold medal than we do. . .

But recognizing the "scale" in that case would not flatter our ego. . .so we ignore it!

[Name removed]

108. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

156. Umm

The word is "extent".

And what's with this "we"?

You obviously identify more with Europe than the US.

[Dead_Parrot]

47. That's a brilliant article - Thank you. nt

[Little Star]

48. k&r

[Quantess]

50. Ouch! Yeah, I already knew about Europe's keen awareness of our problems.

And trust me, the vast majority of Europeans don't side with the teabaggers or FOX. It seems to be more of a disbelief, a bewilderment, that the bonehead RW'ers are not as fringe as they deserve to be.

[rury]

55. I'm sure Europeans wonder HOW THE HELL

so many people could vote the Rethuglikkkans back into office after they fucked the country over big time.

[Amonester]

88. Of course they wonder why there are so many of them, but...

they won because not enough Democratic Party's 2006-2008 voters DID NOT VOTE.

Maybe they felt that the 2006-old "We Will End That War" promise was just a bullshit campaign slogan (or other BS campaign slogans) and they just felt like they had been had then, and no longer wanted to feel that way ever again.

[laughingliberal]

52. K & R nt

[maryf]

53. Brilliant article.

"The conviction that stocks have always made everyone richer has become as much of a chimera in the United States as the belief that everyone has the right to own his own home, and then a bigger home, a second car and maybe even a yacht."

I hope everyone reads it in its entirety; I've bookmarked it to read with greater attention later. thanks, K&R

[DFW]

59. Germany watches us very closely

After all, they credit us with saving them from Hitler. But they are watching in horror as we
descend into madness and irrelevance except for MTV videos.

I was asked by West German News radio to do an interview last Thursday, as as American Democrat
stationed abroad (and who spoke German). My wife listened, and her first comment afterward was,
"you weren't feeling very diplomatic, were you?" No, I wasn't.

I commented about how my country was swamped by a media blitz of unprecedented proportions, set
in motion by dirty money allowed by Cheney/Rove (oh, and supposedly Bush) appointees Roberts and
Alito, as well as Murdoch's 24/7 media blitz. I compared it to their own media takeover propaganda
onslaught run by Göbbels.

From two German friends who listened (and were not told of this in advance), I was told by one that
I seemed a little agitated (I was), and by the other that mine was just about the only commentary he
heard that day that expressed exactly what he was feeling. He speaks fluent English and takes his
vacations frequently in the USA.

[moondust]

74. Nice work!

Do you by any chance have a transcript of your interview (in English) that you could share? This sounds really interesting, especially the comparison to Goebbels! Damn, I'd love to hear the reaction of some Germans to that!

[DFW]

102. I wish!

It was a live interview that was set up only the day before. I was in Brussels for work, and they
contacted me on my cell phone, They called to my hotel room between a shower and my heading out
in panic for Breakfast and a 10:00 appointment in Paris. I had no idea what they were going to
ask me, so I had no notes prepared.

I looked on their website, but the had no podcast that I could listen to and transcribe.

But many Germans have heard of Fox, although few have actually seen it. No such thing exists
here of course, as anything resembling Nazi propaganda is forbidden by law, the only restriction
to free speech in Germany (or Austria).

My wife, who is German, saw some of the more right-leaning "news"-casters on CNN and found
them appallingly biased. The fact that anything like Fox even exists is very depressing to
her, and the fact that so many in America watch it and believe what they hear on it is one
of the reasons she never wants to live there permanently. If I ever retire, she will only
follow me back to a Fox-free America, or I spend the rest of my days here in Europe if I
want to keep her (and I do).

[moondust]

152. Lucky you!

:toast:

[BrklynLiberal]

60. It would seem that the Europeans have been able to get real clear picture of what happens here...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

65. sounds like an indictment against the Republicans in America Interesting that the world sees it too.

[dbmk]

132. The article in the Der Spiegel comes off a little too holy for my taste

Being a Dane I can recognise the Tea Party and their rhetoric from our own European extreme right wing parties. That in a lot of countries, including my own, have managed to gain considerable power, being the parliamentary basis for right wing governments.

But because of your two party system, their voice just gets amplified through a bigger party that needs their support. (Ok, maybe the fact that US politics are centered a lot more to the right, does not help either).
In a multiparty system there is less need for that. They have their own 15% megaphone in the corner.

But demographics wise we have nothing on you guys. They are here as well. Just contained differently - but not with any greater success. If not less, effectively, seeing as they have gotten very, very good as passing themselves off as housetrained.

Irrational anger is just too easy a tool for some politicians to forego.

[whathehell]

162. The Right Wing in Europe, Indeed...Thanks, dbmk....We could use a broader perspective here.

[YankeeLeft7x]

67. The Powers to Be Don't Want "Change"

The old ways do not work any longer and yet with all these present economic problems, both political parties just want to return to the old failed policies.

Returning to these failed policies will send America into a decline so hard economically that it would take 100 years to recover.

Platitudes and smaller government will not work.

The Government has been downsized so much over the years that the last things to cut are Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

Obama keeps praising these right wing extremists.

[Loge23]

70. We have the government we deserve.

We are the people after all. Obviously it's not just us, on DU, that votes.
This country IS in severe decline and it's because of the people.
We, as a people, have essentially abandoned the American Dream.
We, as a people, turned against the unions - without as much we would have never realized the Dream at all.
We, as a people, tolerated the fools in power - and still fall for the lies.
We, as a people, have turned to idle pursuits like dancing programs and talent shows, while we're basically being fleeced by the same corporate that sponsor the crap on TV.
We, as a people, could care less about factual news - or the lack thereof.
We, as a people, are fascinated by idiots who have never read anything longer than an Archie comic. We will even entertain the notion of these fools as leaders!
We, as a people, will continuously vote against our own interests at whole in exchange for a single issue that appeals to our own misplaced morality.
We, as a people, will dismiss European criticism with recycled prejudice based on events that happened well before our time.

[DeSwiss]

80. Generally I concur with your statements....

...with exception to The Great Theft of 2000, along with the introduction of non-verifiable electronic voting which essentially negates anyone's vote (whether they know who to vote for or not). Of course even these things can be said to be the result of both earlier actions that were taken, as well as those that were not -- which lead us to this point.

And yet:

However, one must take into consideration that the entire system is corrupted. Completely and utterly corrupted. Barack Obama is now being undone by the very same Wall Street money that gave him the resources with which he gain the reins of power. And instead of using the opportunity to place them under his control, he chose to thank them and to attempt cooperation and compromise. But they don't want to compromise. And they hate thankful people. They only respect avarice and the bloodthirsty like themselves. And as another commenter http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/06-6">elsewhere has stated:

"The thoroughly rotten and corrupt two party system will not produce a leader with any interest in working for the American people and to think otherwise is the height of foolishness. Until the progressives give up their addiction to the democratic party and start building a new one there is little hope of change."

This didn't happen overnight. Step by step and bit by bit the upper class and their corporations rolled back, undermined and threw-off all the bindings and restraints we had heretofore placed on their power. And we sat there while our own party allowed it to unravel. And then later "our own leaders" decided that if you can't beat them then you might as well join them. And so they then began to participate in the destruction of middle class protections. NAFTA. Banking deregulation. Breaking-up the unions. The disposal of habeas corpus. Rendition. And Barack Obama has kept almost all of these levers of dictatorial power in-place. In-place for the next leader, who won't be afraid to put them to use.

Until we are prepared to admit the truth of what has happened in this country and who is responsible, then it'll only get worse. And until people take to the streets shouting and demanding the change we want, it'll only get worse. How could Obama be painted as a liberal? As a progressive? A socialist? Ignorance, that's how. We the people on the whole, are ignorant. And easily manipulated. We saw all the signs of this coming. Literally. The powers that be know which buttons to push to cause the fear and hatred. And they know that ignorant people can be emotionally manipulated with their own fears and prejudices. A simple and thoroughly effective formula. And it is used over and over again. Those that recognize this and point it out or try to stop it are eventually marginalized and later targeted for removal.

- Removal. As in, no longer their problem......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9497208&mesg_id=9507720

[maryf]

77. From your link: Weaknesses of the Old Order

..."When Greenspan came to Washington in 1967, as a campaign advisor to Richard Nixon, the old order of the New Deal was still in place. The unions were powerful. Big corporations like General Motors, General Electric and ITT controlled the market. But Greenspan felt that the old order was too sedate. He placed great stock in the experiences of his friend, the Russian immigrant and philosopher Ayn Rand, who wrote about the evils of collectivist systems. "What she did...was to make me think why capitalism is not only efficient and practical, but also moral," Greenspan said. "Parasites who persistently avoid either purpose or reason perish as they should."

Ronald Reagan was a rising regional politician in California at the time. He believed that the government was not the solution to all problems; rather that government was, in fact, the problem itself. In his biography, Reagan wrote: "People are tired of wasteful government programs and welfare chiselers, and they're angry about the constant spiral of taxes and government regulations, arrogant bureaucrats, and public officials who think all of mankind's problems can be solved by throwing the taxpayers' dollars at them."

The beginning of the 1980s offered conservatives the opportunity to reshape the country as they saw fit. Unions were suffering from a decline in membership. Technical advances enabled companies to produce smaller quantities cost-effectively and thus gain access to markets previously dominated by major corporations. Reagan took advantage of the weaknesses of the old order to deregulate the economy.

When air traffic controllers went on strike for higher pay, Reagan fired them and banned them from federal service for life. He also deregulated the telecommunications industry, the shipping industry, banks and commercial aviation, and he lowered the maximum tax rate from 70 to 28 percent."...

again, thanks for the article...

[bobbolink]

79. Hi Mary. I'm a parasite and a chiseler. Thanks for speaking to me anyway.

:pals:

[maryf]

110. who are the bloodsuckers anyway?

not us! Solidarity Bobbie! :fistbump:

[TatonkaJames]

82. What we're all forgetting here is.....

we are still an infant nation less than 300 years old where Europe has had democracies for centuries. That's why most European countries scoff at us. They don't have a problem with gay rights, many realize the importance of Hemp and they have been through what we're going through time and again, so yeah, they can laugh when we keep making the same mistakes by allowing ourselves to be dumbed down so we keep on electing the same useless puppets every election. If we're going to "elect" ourselves into another great depression then we should be more vocal to both party's to the point of demonstrations in the streets.

As long as we stay silent while we're getting screwed they figure we're enjoying it.

Time to wake up America

[eridani]

97. The Stonewall Rebellion occurred HERE

The oldest feminist movements started HERE. Other developed countries look at that and say "OK, that makes sense" and implement the changes while we still flounder. Not sure why.

[whathehell]

180. What you obviously don't know is..

Europe did NOT have "democracies for ages"...They had monarchies.. or fascist regimes like Hitler's and Franco's..and Communist dictatorships, like the Soviet Union.

America is the oldest continuous democracy.

Time to wake up and learn History, Tatonka:eyes:

[TatonkaJames]

208. I was being a bit broad on that...

The history of democracy -- the history of empowering people by giving them a say in their political entities—traces back from its origins in the ancient world to its re-emergence and rise from the 17th century to the present day.

This history traces the development of democracy in Europe from its origins in ancient Greece up to the present day.


* Considers all the major watersheds in the development of democracy in modern Europe.
* Describes the rediscovery of Ancient Greek political ideals by intellectuals at the end of the eighteenth century.
* Examines the twenty-year crisis from 1789 to 1815, when the repercussions of revolution in France were felt across the European continent.
* Explains how events in France led to the explosion of democratic movements between 1830 and 1848.
* Compares the different manifestations of democracy within Eastern and Western Europe during the latter half of the nineteenth century.
* Considers fascism and its consequences for democracy in Europe during the twentieth century.
* Demonstrates how in the recent past democracy itself has become the object of ideological battles.

Wikipedia

[JCMach1]

84. Last time I checked Europe had their own set of problems (Germany included)

America is a wealthy, resilient country and will be back.

[Pholus]

128. Perhaps. It would be easy to find a similar article about any country.

I agree with your sentiments, but I think the point is that for the first time it is unclear where the path to "back" lies.

[JCMach1]

192. I don't think it ever was clear... while things were 'more' balanced for awhile, we are still at the

mercy of unbridled market capitalism.

It is even worse today as it is now 'globalized' capitalism.

Even worse, both socialism and capitalism are based on the notion of work and how it relates to resources. In the coming centuries, work will be taken-over more and more by machines. The old political ideologies just don't work any more!

What then?

It is not just America, but the global economic system is broken. It is going to be a rough paradigm shift.

[totodeinhere]

85. I remember President Obama saying during his campaign that our best

days are ahead of us. And I still believe that. What the article did not point out is that there are a lot of good people who are aware of these problems and who are working very hard to make it better. We have demographics on our side and we will only get stronger. The older generation is one the way out.

[blue sky at night]

87. The WikiLeaks Iraq Logs A Protocol of Barbarity

interesting idea; a press that exposes how fucking brutal america is, funny I haven't seen this in the Akron Beacon Journal or the Cleveland Plain Dealer...??? I must be missing something....

in the left column a bit down from the bummer article we are enlightened by in this post:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,724026,00.html

[Schibulsky]

98. "Socialism" works...

...in Germany! When the crisis hit, the companies and the unions worked together to avoid lay offs, lowered the wages for some time and worked harder...now Germany has the lowest unemployment rate since 18 years and the economy is booming again. They didn't outsource their production and even with their high cost of labor it is still one of the most productive workforce in the world. I am working and living in Asia at the moment and all my business partners are using german machines and tools for their production, even if it's more expensive than the chinese stuff. It's all about quality produced by the oh so pampered german workers with 4-6 weeks vacation, a still sufficient social network and an affordable health care system.
And they watch in disbelieve how the Americans are voting for the same guys who got them into the mess in the first place!!

[blue sky at night]

129. hey, thanks for your reply...

i agree with you and have always felt that way...i am so envious of europeans who have so many things going for them, while we are mucking around like children.

[Catherina]

101. Rec'd. Great article n/t

[melody]

105. Typical anti-American crap

The waning they are seeing is of nationalism. The Europeans shouldn't start rubbing their hands together, thinking they'll take the game ball. It doesn't work that way. It's going to be a global marketplace with everyone power-sharing, as it should be, though gawd knows the white folk always seem to need to battle for total control. lol

Anti-American rhetoric is as wrong as the "freedom fries" crap against France. The EU press is seeing the pattern they wish to see, not the gray areas as they exist.

[Pholus]

125. Really? Enlighten me.

Here is the main points of the article. Which are debatable enough to constitute "Anti-American Rhetoric?" (Edit, removed one of the "too many Reagan's"

Rampant consumer debt encouraged by the housing bubble.

General decline in standard of living due to stagnant wages/rising prices.

Misplaced irrational nativistic rage on the right who doesn't know enough about the world to understand the forces ruining their entitlements.

Inability of politicians to do what is needed since they spend their time grandstanding and praising gridlock?

Financial mismanagement from Wall Street?

The fall of our status is not necessarily a free fall collapse?

Economic disparities growing between rich and poor in part because of a tax code riddled with loopholes?

The real estate bubble itself?

Reagan's dismantling of the system which kept us stable through the 80's which started this decline.

Financial dependency on our new old rival China and how several of our policy solutions might bring us into conflict with them?

That we still have our bright spots even though there is a general decline?

Ineffective fiscal policy that could drag the Euros down with us if they're not careful?

[melody]

159. The tone and the EU's use of the press for power grabbing is what I mean

It's just another "The US is doomed" jerk-off story to make the EU think it's ripe for taking over the planet.

None of us need to be in control, we all should be in control. To have EU world police would be as toxic as US world police.

[Pholus]

170. I'll agree to that, but the criticisms in the article are apt and unaddressed at the current time.

[whathehell]

133. You are correct, Madam!

and thank you for that bit of balance.

..It's needed.:eyes:

[Meshuga]

147. From the tone of the article it seem like the author was lamenting

Rather than seeing opportunity to take the game ball.

It said in the first part that they will feel the consequences if things don't get better in the US.

[melody]

157. I'm far too familiar with the EU's lust for power to believe any laments

They're every bit as bad as Cheney and Co. They use the US' every misstep (and we make tons of them) against us.

What is it with white people? I am 3/4s white, so I speak of my own experience, but we seem to need to control *everything.*

[old mark]

115. I wonder when the administration will notice?...nt

[Kermitt Gribble]

123. It's a relief

that the rest of the world is noticing how fucked up this country is. Corporations running the government, electing criminals, and not punishing the elite for their crimes - we need an intervention.

K&R

[Pholus]

124. This article means the new House's first order of business is to rename German Shepards

"Freedom Shepards."

[Meshuga]

148. LOL!!!

You said this as a joke but the sad thing is that it would possibly be the case if the Germans piss off the right wing. Crazy took over American politics and that is embarrassing.

[whathehell]

166. LOL....The Germans don't need our right wing...

for anything....They've got their own.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/world/europe/22germany.html

[creon]

127. The USA is coming back to the field

1945. This year was the beginning of a situation favorable to the USA. Germany was destroyed; The UK, France and Russia were badly damaged. This situation lasted for 30 or so years.
The end of the cold war and the process of decolonialization put an end of to this favorable situation.

Europe has been rebuilt, the former colonies have joined the world economic system and Russia is back to being Russia after the great adventure of Bolshevism.

This is a major adjustment. There will be a great deal of wailing and knashing of teeth while this works out. And, it will work out.

Few societies have reacted all that well to "de empirization".

[BootinUp]

131. Wow, great read. Thanks for posting. nt

[happygoluckytoyou]

141. we're number 1 we're number 1 we're number 1 we're number 1 we're number 1 we're JUST numb

[TwilightGardener]

150. Thanks for posting this.

[MaeScott]

161. Kicked,can't rec.....nt

[GSLevel9]

196. yeah, isn't that amazing...

we beat them with tanks across the fields of Western Europe, darkened the skies with bombers... we beat them to a bloody pulp to end their quest for world domination.


So we won the first 65 years of the 1000 year Reich...

they might win the next 900+ years.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

199. Boy, it's not like our dysfunction isn't completely obvious to everybody around the world

Some days, I am (not) proud to be an American (and I absolutely *cringe* every time I hear Greenwood's "God Bless The USA" :puke:).

There are, of course, some great things about this country but when I hear about other civilized countries and the standard of living they enjoy, it's hard to feel so great about here, particularly when we have elections like we did last Tuesday.

Having the "best" of life here in America is conditional on having lots of $$$$$ and/or "connections". Otherwise, it's a daily challenge to just simply (barely) get by.

[cherokeeprogressive]

207. Suddenly, or finally?