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Republicans and the US Debt Limit. The very real threat to the World Economy.

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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 02:51 PM
Original message
Republicans and the US Debt Limit. The very real threat to the World Economy.
On 20 January 2010, HJ 45 was singed in to law by President Obama. This was an increase in the debt limit to $14.3 trillion.

In the Senate, the vote to increase that debt limit had the support of only two Republican Senators. The previous vote to increase the debt limit before had cross-party support.

It now looks unlikely that any Senate Republican would vote to increase the debt limit and the Tea Party Republicans in the House are dead set against an increase.

There are two elements to the disastrous state of the US budget deficit. Part of the deficit is always going to be related to the health of the economy and the spending priorities of the Government. In a recession, the deficit is always going to grow because tax revenues dry up and expenditure on welfare benefits increases. Conversely that element will reduce as the economy grows. Then there is the structural deficit.

The US has a real problem with its structural deficit and Republicans refuse to see this. To drive a cuts agenda through in the UK, David Cameron coined the phrase "deficit deniers". In the US it is the Republicans who are the real "deficit deniers". They talk tough on the deficit but provide no solution to reduce that deficit. They also proudly display a horrifically dangerous level of ignorance about the difference between the deficit and the National Debt.


They want to play games with the US National Debt that could prove to be very dangerous to the security of the USA, both in the short term and the long term.

The structural deficit is the part of the deficit that will not go away with economic growth. The Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 reduced revenues to the government without any corresponding reduction in spending. Bush exacerbated that revenue gap by fighting two wars and passing the Medicare Part D prescription drug programme. To tackle those the American government would have to account for Medicare Part D, increase taxes to pay for its activities abroad (or cut back on them heavily) and allow the majority of the Bush tax cuts to expire.

The expiration of that is relatively easy, Congress just needs to do nothing and those cuts will expire.

Still, even if the new Congress was able to take its giant axe to spending in order to tackle the structural deficit and if it looked at what revenue the Federal Government really needed and raised taxes accordingly, the deficit will not clear overnight. The Government will still need to borrow and that will mean that the debt limit will still need to increase, even if you closed down all of government departments tomorrow.

Republicans will need to vote to increase the debt. The Democratic Party may need to save Republicans from their reality lacking Tea Party wing, who will only be answerable to Rush Limbaugh and none of them will disobey him.

The consequences of the 1995 battle to raise the debt limit was hard-felt. Markets took frit. Government shut down. The Government shut-down was a by-product of the Republican battle, which cost them support among voters. The problem for now is that the US has just elected politicians who see that shut-down as their end game. Government closure would make them rejoice. it would however hurt America far more than 1995.

Nearly half of all government activity will cease overnight. To avoid a complete collapse of money market trust in the government of the United States of America, interest payments on the national debt would need to be maintained. Therefore all other payments would be at risk. This would include US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Social Security payments, Medicare payments and unemployment benefits.

Save for the Tea Party Republicans who may see that for a good thing, the economic consequences of such a shut down would be disastrous for the World economy. It will make the USA an economic Pariah that once again plunged the World in to another financial melt down.

We have all become too painfully aware about global money markets and their importance to the World economy. We are also all painfully ware of the greater level of financial inter-connectivity. A level of inter-connection that far exceeds 1995 levels. The closure of a small bank in England changed the credit crunch into a financial collapse with domino effects killing the giants of the US banking Industry. A failure by the US to pay its bills will make that banking crisis look like a holiday.

The "PIGS" of Europe were forced in to financial melt down because they could not meet their debt. The impact of the debt crisis that hit Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain are still being felt in Europe.

The US has 200 sales of its debt each year. If it defaults, the only way to sell the debt would be to increase interest rates. Without a large increase the capital markets would flee from US bonds. The consequences of that would be felt across the World as US Treasury Bonds are the current safe-haven in this still wary financial market. If US loses her reputation, there are the BRIC Nations (Brazil, Russia, India and China) more than happy to take her place.

The $ is the reserve currency of the World based on a historical and strong assumption that the US will not default on its debt. It is also the reserve because there historically there was no alternative for the financial markets. Increasingly, that is no longer the case and Republicans should be wary of testing whether the World is ready for an alternative to the $ as a reserve.

The 1995 debt battle cost US taxpayers $800 million. The Treasury suspended all new debt issues and ceased the non-essential works. This included toxic waste clean-ups, disease control activities and law enforcement activities. The effects were minimised only because the Clinton administration had some head-room to operate. Some of them involved temporarily raiding the pension funds. In addition, the US was not involved in a major war in 1995. Very few of those options are available to the Treasury now and given that the US is at War, they would last for weeks and not months (at best).

If they dare to be so stupid, the devastating consequences of this idiotic gamesmanship needs to be laid at the feet of the people who cause it.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Republicans have no clue how to govern
they don't realize that there is a world out there
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Simplicity of their proposals indicate a gross ignorance in understanding the Big Picture
When it comes to Solving...the GOPers are LAME....

wannabes in charge = Snafu and FUBAR....

i.e. Results of Bush/GOP at the Helm....FUBAR
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know how we're going to lay the blame at their feet, if it happens,when the ones around here
don't even know why bond-ratings are important on the local level.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. We lay blame by making them provide the bulk of votes for it
Pelosi can simply tell the Orange Man that he will have to provide the majority of votes to pass the rise in the debt ceiling if he wants to avoid the horrors listed in the OP. We don't play brinksmanship, Just have the 3/5ths of the Dems vote No. Bohner knows the stakes. The few moderate and conservative Dems left will be glad to be allowed to vote no, and I am sure that Pelosi can maintain sufficient discipline to convince most of the rest of the Dems to the the idea that we cannot give the republicans cover on this, and we hammer home in the press that it's the republicans job to fix the problem. She can use every vote she allows to vote yes to gain leverage over the new Speaker. Let the government shut down for a couple of weeks, and Bohner will be ready to play a lot more nicely.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I love that strategy.
It will also force Republicans to stand up to Rush. Something that they will find very hard to do, may be easier to do as a group though.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. And it will encourage the Civil war between the Teabaggers and
the establishment Republicans.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Right on! too much "providing cover" goin' on. This is our opportunity to stop doing that! Everybody
Edited on Sun Nov-07-10 05:31 PM by patrice
out in the open.

I'm hoping for some actual filibusters. Strikes me that they would be absolutely precious teaching opportunities.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. There are none in the House
but Senate rules are up for change now and the filibuster is worth looking at.

My view on it is changing. Imagine what would have happened if they had won the Senate.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We need to keep the filibuster for now
Yes, the Senate Republicans can use it against us, but on the other hand, we still have a number of weak sister Democrats in the Senate who might bolt and vote with the Republicans. For example, some have made noises about siding with the Repubs to permanently extend the tax cuts for the wealthy, so long as 41 of the Dems hold firm on this, then it will not happen. It may take down the tax cuts for those making less than $250,000, but so long as we have a solid 41 (and I think we do) who won't vote for a tax cut that includes those making over $250,000, it won't happen.

And of course the Repub's will accuse us of class warfare. But we can point out that yes, it is Class Warfare, of the Rich upon the middle and lower classes in this nation. (steal page from FDR).
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Can the majority party filibuster?
That seems very strange.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. It takes 60 votes
to bring something to the floor for debate. On some issues (tax cuts for the wealthy, for example) there may be enough democrats to give the republicans the effective majority. The filibuster forces a supermajority of 60 votes to even bring a bill to the floor for a vote (there are a couple of exceptions). If there is a sufficient minority of 41 (regardless of party) then it's dead in the water.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. What we need is to get in synch with messaging on this and spread it aggressively.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. If they close down governemnt and screw the World economy
and possibly that of America for good - blame needs to rest squarely at their feet.

I know that they are crazy but I have some doubts believing that they are that crazy. At the moment I have a belief that this is just a vacant threat from some blow-hards. I do however have my doubts.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And that's why we have to hold their feet to the fire (nt)
nt
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I also think that the President should veto
Any tax extension of the Bush Tax Cut's that don't return those making more than $250,000. Remember, it's very early in the next election cycle. We have to break the Republican's now, especially the ignoramus TeaBagger's. We pin all the blame on them for acting irresponsibly, any damage done to the economy has to be explained as a result of the inability of the Teabaggers and republicans to compromise. We need to hammer home that Compromise is a two way street, each side might have to give a bit.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. That is the saddest part.
While politically advantageous, the political wing of the Tea Party is prepared to take the whole World down with them. They would absolutely destroy the economy rather than vote for an extension of the debt limit.

Even the nut DeMint has suggested it needs to be increased but as soon as Rush says no, he will capitulate.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. so we let it get rolling
The financial markets will react quickly (they did the last time this game was played) and with the government shutting down (along with most state governments, who are dependent on federal funding to run many operations such as medicaid) the Democrats saying that the Republicans are being irresponsible and why should we have to carry their water for them? I think they will soon be forced to act. If they fail to, they will be out of office....the key is to keep reminding the public that they control the house and it's their responsibility. This is war, nothing short of it. We can win, but their will be casualties.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Looks at though the fight is on
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is this on your blog?
Edited on Sun Nov-07-10 04:22 PM by patrice
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Putting it up now
and it is on Kos.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Thanks very much!
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