I guess the rewriting of history is working...I just ran into an old friend at the

[madmom]

grocery store. Hubby asked how he was doing, haven't seen him in quite a while. He was complaining about how hard it is to make ends meet and just staying above water, yada, yada,yada, just like everyone else. Then came the clincher, he said "yeah thanks to Mr. Clinton." I looked at him and said whaaat? what are you talking about? Well Clinton deregulated everything doncha know? I then proceeded to tell him he needs to go reread his history because it was ronnie raygun who deregulated. Him...no it was Clinton, he also did NAFTA. I told him while you are right about NAFTA, you are totally wrong about everything else. He then proceeded with how Clinton had 8 years to mess up everything including GHW Bush's BALANCED BUDGET! I then told him to stop watching fox reread his history and walked away. If I would have stayed, they may have had me arrested for disturbing the peace or something because I can not talk in a normal tone with idiots like this. I usually end the conversation and walk away.:banghead:

[abq e streeter]

1. This is why I belong to, and practice the philosophy of this facebook group:

"Republicans Are Idiots And Arguing With Them Is A Waste Of Time!" by Addictinginfo.org

[yellerpup]

2. Congratulations for keeping yourself together.

Reason is out the window and truth doesn't stand a chance against irrational partisanship. I feel for you, and I'm proud that you didn't get arrested. Console yourself with this: you won. :hug:

[Uzybone]

3. We have always been at war with Eastasia

[housewolf]

4. Just a quick point about NAFTA that everyone seems to have forgotten...

GHW Bush's admin are the folks (headed by Trade Representataive Carla Hill) responsible for negotiating NAFTA. It was handed over en bloc for the Clinton Administration to pass with not amendments allowed or not (and I think it was a Repub congress at the time, though I don't quite really remember). So yes, it was passed under Clinton's admin, but GHWB's admin are the folks who are really responsible.

[madmom]

7. I do know about this, but was not going to knock my head against the wall trying to

make someone understand something they don't want to.

[housewolf]

15. I understand... just want to make sure the record stays straight here, at least

I cringe everytime I hear "Clinton gave us NAFTA"

[RC]

10. --

[EC]

14. I was just going to add this

it was Reagan and Bush that set it up and had it ready and tied up in a bow for the new Congress and President...with a veto proof majority if I recall...


There are pictures all over the web of Reagan & Bush setting this up...

[Toucano]

5. Clinton repealed the Glass-Stealman Act

He vetoed it once and signed it when it come back across his desk the second time on November 12, 1999.

This led directly to the mortgage crisis.

I am afraid your old friend isn't all wrong.

[madmom]

6. Actually he was because he big gripe was the deregulation of the oil and

gas industry, because his gas bill is so high.

[Hissyspit]

9. Clinton was under pressure from Republicans and corporate Dems.

The Glass-Steagel Act repeal was a Republican creation and a Republican cause:

"The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (Republican of Texas) and in the House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa) in 1999. The bills were passed by a Republican majority, basically following party lines by a 54–44 vote in the Senate<12> and by a bi-partisan 343–86 vote in the House of Representatives.<13> After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90–8 (one not voting) and in the House: 362–57 (15 not voting). The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999.<14>"

Clinton caved, not justifying his actions at all, but to say what has happened over the past decade is 'thanks to Clinton' is ridiculous revisionism.

[femrap]

13. I'm afraid Obama is going to do what

Clinton did....beat the repugnants to the punch. Looking at those numbers....geez, they're all on the Corporate Payroll, aren't they? The Banksters really have made a killing...and the taxpayer is dying.

[Toucano]

16. Well, okay then. As long as he did it under political pressure we'll just say it's

Reagan's signature on the bill.


It only counts as YOUR law if you had joy in your heart when the pen hit the paper?


The mortgage crisis could not have happened if the wall between commercial banking and investment banking had been kept in place. Clinton's signature on that bill broke down that wall, and the Republicans did not have the votes to override a veto.

That's neither opinion nor revisionism. Twist, turn and squirm all you want, but one Democratic politician's "bi-partisanship" erased sixty years of federal regulation and set the wheels in motion.

But hey -- he was under pressure.

[Hissyspit]

19. As I said in the post clearly,

not excusing what he did.

He shouldn't have signed it. Clearly.

But Republicans WROTE it. And passed it with the help of Dems acting like Republicans.

The idea that, thus, it is ALL CLINTON'S FAULT, which is the argument of the guy discussed in the OP, is ridiculous. The climate of the Bush era blatantly exacerbated the effects of the repeal of the act.

[Toucano]

21. The guy in the OP complained that Clinton's "deregulation"

and NAFTA led to our current crisis.*

I said, in my first post, the guy wasn't ALL WRONG. I cited a factual example of Clinton's deregulatory contribution to the mess. If you want to interpret that to mean it's "ALL CLINTON'S FAULT", well that's your prerogative.

Your response to that was to defend Clinton's decision to sign a Republican-authored bill into law because he was under pressure. Though you did say he shouldn't have signed it, your eagerness to defend him this way ignores the third option available to him and does actually read as excusing what he did.

In this case, Clinton failed us. I have no problem acknowledging that. The point is, the "old friend" in the OP wasn't all wrong about Clinton's (and by extension, the Democrats') role in setting the stage for what the media calls, "The Great Recession".

The Republicans have often relied on helper-monkey Democrats to make their nightmares come true.



*We later learn from the OP that the "old friend" was blaming Clinton for gas and oil deregulation, which I view rather speciously to be quite honest.

[Hissyspit]

22. This is the part I had the problem with:

"yeah thanks to Mr. Clinton." it's a right-wing talking point. It's just as easy and accurate for someone to say "yeah thanks to Phil Gramm." Other than that, I think we're pretty much in agreement.

[madmom]

26. Well when this part of conversation started because of

him complaining about how high his gas bill was, I would say that your "specious view" if rather judgmental (I hope you don't call yourself a christian)But seeing how I was there and you weren't, I will look over the fact that you are calling me a liar and consider the source.

[sally cat]

8. Some people will go out of their way to get under your skin. Ignore him.

[sabrina 1]

11. Clinton did sign the Gramm/Bliley Act into law, rescinding the

Glass/Steagal Act and leading to the current disaster that resulted from that disastrous decision.

His cabinet at the time, went after Brooksley Born, who was very much like Elizabeth Warren, and ran her out of her job when she tried to warn about some of what was going on back then that led to the deregulations that have been such a disaster.

Only 7 Democrats voted against the Gramm/Bliley bill, one of them being Sen. Dorgan who warned against it and predicted, almost completely accurately, that it would have disastrous results in 'ten years'. He was off by a couple of years.

So, I hate to tell you but your friend has a point. Democrats overwhelmingly supported that deregulatory bill and a Democratic president signed it.

I once argued with Repubs over that also. I was pretty sad when I had to admit they were right.

[femrap]

12. It's the Dunning-Kruger

Effect in action. Many studies have been done that show when people are shown the FACTS, they still won't believe them. They are righteously stupid.

I now live in Dumfukistan....the new name for Ohio. But I am not a Dumfukistanian!!!!!!!!! I fight them just like you do. They're willfully ignorant and dumb as dirt. In fact when I leave them, I tell them I'm going out to have a conversation with a pile a dirt...better than talking with you.

[Jennicut]

17. I would have asked this person why Ross Perot got so much damn attention in 1992. It was all about

deficit and how to balance the budget. I was 16 then and I remember it. I watched all the debates with my parents. My Dad voted for Perot. Clinton did deregulate some things but Reagan really was the "grandfather" of it all. Next time, tell him to try wikipedia and 1992 Presidential election.

[ibegurpard]

18. Clinton signed Telecomm dereg

which has resulted in the media mergers that are fucking us over today.

[madfloridian]

20. Clinton did deregulate.

[jillan]

23. What I don't get is how they are still blaming Clinton, and we are not suppose to blame Bush.

You did great!

[Skittles]

25. no no Jillian, we are to blame CLINTON AND OBAMA

Dubya? Who's he?

[AtomicKitten]

24. George W. Bush was by far the worst president.

It's tough to meander outside that truth but I see the wingnuts are giving it a try.

[mstinamotorcity]

27. Had a similar conversation with a friend on election day

This is what happened http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x512221#513623


TOMBStone