On the tax cuts, here is the reality

[ProSense]

There is going to be a compromise or the tax cuts will expire.

Anyone who wants the middle-class tax cuts to continue has to expect that there will be a compromise.

If a vote is held on just the middle-class tax cuts, Republicans are likely filibuster it in the Senate. Effectively, that means the tax cuts will expire.

As for compromise, what's it going to look like?

It's not simply a matter of extending the tax cuts permanently or temporarily. There is also the matter of who benefits, and there may be room for compromise there.

Robert Reich: Extend the Bush Tax Cut to the Bottom 99 Percent, But Not The Top 1 Percent.




edited for clarity.

[closeupready]

1. I'm fine with letting ALL the tax cuts expire, including those on myself.

I'm sure a majority of Americans feel the same way.

[treestar]

5. Where do you live?

Seriously, I am sure you are wrong about the majority of Americans.

[closeupready]

18. New York.

n/t

[Diamonique]

24. Me too! Our country can't afford it.

[slackmaster]

46. I think I pay more than enough.You can always send voluntary contributions to the federal government

They'll cheerfully accept any amount you give them.

[closeupready]

60. Your option is to pay your taxes in full. You can do so cheerfully.

Or not, but there are penalties for not paying taxes you owe.

Have a nice weekend. :hi:

[de novo]

47. Let them all expire.

It isn't worth letting the wealthiest skate because of the so-called 'middle class' tax-cuts are attached.

[golfguru]

56. You can always volunteer sending more tax money to US Treasury

Just do not force it on some of us who are already tightening our belts.

[closeupready]

59. Unless you have expatriated, you are obligated to pay your government's debts.

Along with the rest of us. That means you will be forced to pay taxes. There is no legitimate alternative.

Sorry if you are fine with bankrupting the US government. Most normal people aren't.

[golfguru]

77. Why start now during a massive recession? The gov't has been

accumulating debt since WW II. The national debt has never gone down during any administration. The recent best performance was during Clinton admin, but it was a projected surplus, actual yearly surplus never took place.

We need a balance budget amendment and restrict the expansion in spending each year to inflation or less.

[Hawkeye-X]

2. Fuck the rich, give us the permanent tax cut (let it expire or make a new law)

and raise the marginal rate on the 250k+ to 55% and use the money to fund SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE.

Obama must not give in. And he should not.

Republicans owns 0 of the branch, and come next year, only 1/3?

Why the fuck do we need to compromise? We've been compromising everything.

It's time to turn the attack guns on the Thugs instead of ourselves.

And oust them for 2012. All 33 seats will go to Democratic Senate, and 75% of the seats in the house will return to Democratic side.

[ProSense]

6. Question

"give us the permanent tax cut (let it expire or make a new law) and raise the marginal rate on the 250k+ to 55% and use the money to fund SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE."

Do you really believe Republicans are going to vote for this?

Explain how it passes without Republican support.

[Pirate Smile]

3. I think you meant "a" instead of "no".

"Anyone who wants the middle-class tax cuts to continue has to expect that there will be no compromise. "

[ProSense]

8. Thanks, fixed. n/t

[FSogol]

4. K & R. n/t

[treestar]

7. K&R

And they should quit calling it permanent, no tax law is permanent.

[Igel]

20. Few things are truly permanent.

It goes to intent and whether or not a sunset provision is built in.

"Permanent" = "not intentionally made temporary."

[Skink]

9. I thought Obamas buget projections already factored in a reset in taxes.

[fasttense]

10. Let them ALL expire.

Yeah, it will cost me about $300. But it's a small price to pay if it helps pay down the deficit. If the bushes huge tax give-away to the uber rich expire, it will make a big dent in the deficit and Obama can claim he has made significant inroads to paying off the debt.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. The frustrating thing is that this was not addressed before the election

We should have forced them to vote on a bill that would extend the tax cuts for the middle class only. Then if it didn't pass we should have brought it up again, and again, and again. And then run ads saying "Republicans voted against middle class tax cuts 100 times". I usually cut the President and the Dem Leaders a lot of slack but this is one where they should've drawn a line in the sand.

[kentuck]

17. But they thought it might cause them to lose the House?

Boy, were they wrong!!!

[WI_DEM]

12. Just once, though, I wish that Obama and Reid would say, "ok, repubicans go ahead and filibuster the

tax cuts for the middle class." And then let them do it and every day point out that they are fillibustering average Americans getting tax relief so that the very rich can get it. Just do it! Let them filibuster!!!!!!!

[PensiveGadfly]

19. And Why Not

I like making the Repugnants filibuster a tax cut. Sure seems like a good idea. So why not?

[Cosmocat]

13. There is absolutely NO reason to dick around with this ...

Put it up to a friggen vote in the house to extend only the middle 99 ... Get everyone on the record with it ... Let the republican's throw a major friggen hissy, but they WILL get a vote in the house two seconds after Boehner is Speaker that WILL include the top rates ...

For the every loving life of me I can't get where dems are shaking in the trees over this ...

Vote NOW for the middle class extension and if the Rs stone it, let them expire ...

[Igel]

21. "Middle 99"?

Seriously?

Of course, the problem is that the current projected budget deficit from the OMB has to be based on current law. That means their projection assumes that all the * tax cuts expire.

What people are arguing for is increasing the deficit by something like $2.2 trillion over ten years by means of the "middle class tax cut". Key word: "increase the deficit."

But since we like the tax cuts for me but not thee, we've decided that this $2.2 trillion increase is a deficit "reduction" of $800 billion since it increases the $800 billion less than a full 10-year extention of the * tax cuts would.

Only in politics does a $2.2 trillion increase in spending constitute a $800 billion savings. Well, in politics and when my wife is shopping for clothes.

[Pirate Smile]

14. I like Reich's idea. The only issue is if we can get enough Republicans to go along with it to pass

it through the lame duck session.

I'm not sure if we know how many Republicans we would need because I don't know how many Democratic Senators ALSO want the top tax rate extended.

As usual, it is all about the friggin Senate.

[wiggs]

15. cap the tax cut at maximum 7 or 8K. Easy. nt

[handmade34]

16. let them all expire

I remember when G. Bush implemented them... most people got a couple of hundred dollars but many extra expenses crept into our lives that we didn't pay attention to... it was all a scam and needs to be recognized as such

[Whisp]

22. how much are these cuts to the middle class?

anyone know the average dollar amount it would mean to the average taxpayer?

[patrice]

31. It doesn't matter. Are you listening to what's going on between us and the rest of the world?

We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED to demonstrate a willingness to deal with OUR DEFICIT and paying for what "we" do (e.g. WARS THAT WE SUPPORTED) is a good place to begin to protect our bond-rating.

Or, we can just let the folks who pulled this house of cards down decide what we can and cannot do.

[paulk]

72. it came to around $600 a year

most of it coming from increased deduction for children and married filing jointly...

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1811

[ProSense]

23. Wow,

people sure are unrec'ing the hell out of this thread.

Spin is acceptable, reality, not so much.

[de novo]

48. The reality is acceptable, but it still isn't good news.

Extending the tax cuts at all is essentially re-upping them indefinitely. They should be allowed to expire. The easiest thing to do would be to do nothing. No need to work with boner.

[BeyondGeography]

25. Obama is making a terrible mistake if all he does is extend the Bush tax cuts as is

The compromise needs to be more than decoupling the top rate for two years and making the middle class cuts permanent. That is what an unimaginative. placeholder President does.

I did not vote for a placeholder. He needs to take a short term hit and stand up for his own tax regime. If the cap is raised from $250K to $1 million, fine, then he goes on the road and says the Republicans are willing to hold the middle class hostage for millionaires. If the Republicans says he's a class warfare, tax hiking liberal, than he can point to their supposedly cherished goal of reducing the deficit.

This is the perfect time to take a stand and the right issue to do it with. Screw the "72% support bipartisanship" nonsense. The base wants to see him stand up for Democratic values and enough independents will respect him for it to make it a political win.

The reverse is also true; he will demoralize the base and lead independents to conclude they might as well have a Republican in charge since Republicans are better at Republican policies than Democrats. We are looking at one term if all he does is make the world safe for the Bush tax cuts.

[Demoiselle]

26. Let them ALL expire.

Then force the Republicans to explain it.

[barbtries]

32. this is my favorite idea

i actually wouldn't mind paying my taxes if the government wasn't throwing so much of my money away on WARS and DEBT.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

37. The Republican explanation

It's the fault of Obama and the Democrat congress people.

They refused to show us any bipartisan respect.

Palin/Beck 2012.

:hi:

[Moosepoop]

27. K&R! n/t

[patrice]

28. THEY SHOULD EXPIRE FOR EVERYONE - If the President can't see that . . . .

:-(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((~

[bluethruandthru]

38. +1000000

[SidDithers]

29. K&R...nt

Sid

[sadbear]

30. Compromise denotes that both sides give up something

If the HuffPo article is true, then this isn't compromise. It capitulation.

[Mass]

34. This is a big IF from a writer that has often been known for hyperbolic reporting.

I doubt what he is reporting is true, if anything because Obama has already said he disagreed with that, as lately as last week.

[Mass]

33. Thanks. Excellent editorial and probably what could be a workable compromise

(a lot more workable than replaying this fight during the 2012 campaign).

[marlakay]

35. but if Obama actually let it expire

and held on tight with veto to renew it they instead of us would have to cave...no way would all of the republicans want to have higher taxes....the dems just don't know how to frame anything...

[patrice]

36. They'd have to cave on DEFICIT reduction, as long as "we" hold the line on everything else.

I'd sure as hell would love to know the genealogy of retaining "the Middle Class tax cuts" while killing the $200K+ tax cuts. Given who the President has around him, one can't help but speculate about poison pills.

[ProSense]

39. Yes, that

point was made here:

"...If the tax cuts were left to expire, as a growing number of voices, including those on the right, are calling for, are calling for, that would be a perfect opportunity to introduce new 'Obama Permanent Middle Class Tax Cuts.'"

Still, as you say, it would require the President holding to a veto, especially since Republicans control the House as of January.

[ileus]

40. Extend them for everyone in my tax bracket...

Raise them for everyone above and below me.

We're looking at losing 3-5k a year, real money that my family and I can't do without.

[patrice]

41. Have you been in favor of War Spending?

[jeff47]

42. Wow, are you a terrible negotiator

"If a vote is held on just the middle-class tax cuts, Republicans are likely filibuster it in the Senate. Effectively, that means the tax cuts will expire."

And the problem is....?

Let them expire. The tax rates were just fine during the Clinton administration. Returning to them is not the end of the world.

But the Republicans would have to defend raising taxes on 100% everyone in their attempt to cut taxes on the top 2%. That's a fight we want.

[ProSense]

43. I think you read something into the statement that wasn't there or implied

"If a vote is held on just the middle-class tax cuts, Republicans are likely filibuster it in the Senate. Effectively, that means the tax cuts will expire."

And the problem is....?

There is no problem, that's the entire point.

[jeff47]

44. Then why are you proposing a compromise?

Much less a compromise where the Democrats give in to the Republican demands?

The Republicans want to extend tax cuts for the top 2%. The Democrats want either the remaining 98%, or nobody. So if letting them expire is perfectly acceptable, why are you pushing for a compromise?

[ProSense]

45. The point

of the OP is that without a compromise the tax cuts will expire. Anyone who really wants the middle-class tax cuts to continue will have to accept that it requires a compromise.

"Much less a compromise where the Democrats give in to the Republican demands?"

The Republicans want to extend tax cuts for the top 2%. The Democrats want either the remaining 98%, or nobody. So if letting them expire is perfectly acceptable, why are you pushing for a compromise?

There is only one example of a compromise in the OP, which isn't pushing a specific compromise.

[jeff47]

50. Do you not notice the contradictions in your arguments?

"The point of the OP is that without a compromise the tax cuts will expire."

Which you just described as an acceptable outcome. So why compromise?

"There is only one example of a compromise in the OP, which isn't pushing a specific compromise."

Again, WHY COMPROMISE AT ALL?!?!? The outcome without a compromise is acceptable. You don't have to give the Republicans anything. The Republicans are the ones that NEED A BILL TO PASS. We're fine with the result of gridlock.

[ProSense]

51. Oh brother

"The point of the OP is that without a compromise the tax cuts will expire."

Which you just described as an acceptable outcome. So why compromise?

Nothing in the OP states that anything is an acceptable outcome. I can point out that the sky is blue, but maybe I'm hoping for rain. Does that mean a blue sky is acceptable?

"There is only one example of a compromise in the OP, which isn't pushing a specific compromise."

Again, WHY COMPROMISE AT ALL?!?!? The outcome without a compromise is acceptable. You don't have to give the Republicans anything. The Republicans are the ones that NEED A BILL TO PASS. We're fine with the result of gridlock.

Do you know what a hypothetical is? I'm not involved in the negotiations.

[jeff47]

53. Psst...reply 43. Go read it again, since you apparently forgot your own post (nt)

[ProSense]

54. No

you read it again until you understand what you're reading.

[jeff47]

55. Seriously?

You gonna break out "I know you are but what am I" next?

Do I have to quote the whole thing for you? Ooooo-kay:

"If a vote is held on just the middle-class tax cuts, Republicans are likely filibuster it in the Senate. Effectively, that means the tax cuts will expire."

And the problem is....?

There is no problem, that's the entire point.

So once again, you AGREE with me that letting the tax cuts expire is an acceptable result. But you are insisting that the Democrats need to compromise with the Republicans to avoid an acceptable result. From where I sit, that makes absolutely no sense. If we get an acceptable result with or without a compromise, why compromise?

[ProSense]

57. You see the boxed text in your response?

No where in that statement does it remotely say or imply this:

"But you are insisting that the Democrats need to compromise with the Republicans to avoid an acceptable result."

That is you attaching a meaning to it that isn't there.

[jeff47]

58. So did you forget about every reply of yours in this sub-thread then?

And the content of your OP? 'Cause that's where you keep fighting for a compromise.

[Lord Magus]

49. Unless the Senate Dems remember that reconciliation still exists.

Then it can't be filibustered.

[rucky]

52. Let them expire & welcome America to their new GOP controlled House.

[closeupready]

61. Question to threadstarter: is expiration of the tax cuts an acceptable outcome, in your opinion?

?

[ProSense]

62. Rorschach test? n/t

[closeupready]

63. As is typical, you dance around furiously, rather than answer difficult questions.

I ask again:

Do you feel expiration of the tax cuts is an acceptable outcome?

[ProSense]

66. "As is typical, you dance around furiously, rather than answer difficult questions."

So it is a Rorschach test.

Here's what you need to do to satisfy your curiosity: spend some time reading my comments over the past several days.

You're not going to get any satisfaction here.

[closeupready]

73. Or you can simply answer a direct question. But considering your comments over

the past several days, as you have requested of me, answering directly would not be consistent with that history.

[ProSense]

75. LOL! n/t

[closeupready]

76. ? Did I miss my own joke? (Jay Leno can only DREAM he had an audience like this.)

But seriously, folks, take my wife. Please.

[PassingFair]

64. Here's a realer reality. Let them ALL expire...

THEN go back in and pass a working and middle class
tax reduction and LET the Pukes filibuster THAT.

[Dinger]

67. *SNAP*

:) :headbang:

[ProSense]

70. Please

respond to this poll.

Thanks.

[PassingFair]

71. You're welcome. n/t

[Enrique]

65. your reality in Sept. was "let the damn tax cuts expire"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=453984#454106

Ugh! What the hell happened to making the middle-class tax cuts permanent?

If they're going to vote, separate the tax cuts into two bills, middle class and rich, and then vote. Take a damn stand.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

69. You

appear to be a tad obsessed with what I think. Why?

The reality in the OP has nothing to do with my position. It's a a hypothetical based on the facts: the tax cuts will expire if there is no compromise.

If you believe there is a way to extend them without a comprise, please enlighten me.

[catgirl]

74. It looks like you're being stalked

And they're putting words in your mouth. Hang tough. :-)