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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 04:25 PM
Original message
Involuntary, multiple X-rays from TSA
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 04:25 PM by CreekDog
There is no opt-out for the following:

http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/castscope.shtm




(yes, I do keep pushing this as one aspect of unacceptable things done to innocent passengers as part of TSA screening)
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Creekdog... did you read this article?
Q: How long does it take to be scanned by the CastScope?
A: Multiple scans will be necessary depending on type of device, location of device, size of device, and number of devices worn by the passenger. These factors will determine how long the scanning process will take, each scan takes approximately 3 seconds.

Q: What is the difference between backscatter x-rays and medical x-rays?
A: Backscatter x-rays only penetrate approximately ¼ of an inch before the rays are scattered, whereas medical X-rays transmit completely through the body. For comparison, the CastScope emits less than 10 microRem of radiation per scan and a typical medical X-ray emits 10,000 to 100,000 microRem per scan.

Q: How much radiation exposure is produced from 1 scan of the CastScope? Is it safe?
A: One scan is equivalent to approximately 10 microRem of radiation. This is equivalent to the exposure each person receives in about two minutes of airplane flight at altitude or each person receives every 15 minutes from naturally occurring background radiation.<\b>

The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) developed a standard for X-raying human subjects for security purposes using back-scatter X-ray technology. The National Council on Radiation Protection (NCRP) states that a person receiving 1000 microRem (100 scans) per year is still considered a negligible individual dose. In addition, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and NCRP have advised that the CastScope is safe to use on anyone ages 5 and up regardless of gender or any medical condition


Using the info you provided you would have to have a 1000 scans to one medical x-ray at its lowest setting..


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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You aren't quoting the article (which I read)...and no thanks, I don't want the radiation anyway
The "article" says that 10 xrays are needed on average.

You didn't read that did you?

And if you think the radiation is so necessary, tell you what, you take my 10+ xrays and my law-abiding self will get on the airplane.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I read your link.. I took those excerpts directly from your link
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 07:24 PM by Peacetrain
There is nothing in there about 10 exrays..

If a machine was giving out that kind of radiation.. the TSA people could not be standing there? What are you talking about
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You read the TSA links and acted like the Popular Mechanics article didn't exist
tell me how many x-rays Popular Mechanics said people typically get?
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. What Popular Mechanics article?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. sorry i should have included it.
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 07:28 PM by CreekDog
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/safety/the-problem-with-prosthetics-and-airport-security

that was my mistake and i've been posting it frequently and neglected to in this thread.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You do realize that the scans are not the same thing as a medical exray
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 07:36 PM by Peacetrain
The complaint in this article is about how the amputee has to wait..and the confusion at how to handle these complicated screens.. those 10 scans would equal 1/100 of an exray.




This is where the process slows down. Swabs are taken immediately in and around all prosthetics to detect for bomb-making material. Then you wait. The next step is to go under the CastScope. Sometimes there is a certified employee on the premises. But often, you have to wait for employees to hunt one down. Once the operator is found, you go under the machine, prosthetic limbs still on. They take X-ray images on the front, back and sides—about 10 X-rays per below-the-knee prosthetic, more if your prosthesis has a mechanical knee. After these X-rays pass inspection, you're free to fly.

For Jeffrey J. Cain, the chief of family medicine at the Children's Hospital in Denver, Colo., and a below-the-knee double amputee, this is a typical encounter with airport security, by the book. The problem? It rarely goes down like this. "There's such variability in screening people with prosthetics," Cain says. Sometimes an amputee gets a pat-down after the backscatter scan (which isn't required); sometimes he or she is asked to remove a limb; and always, Cain says, there is confusion: "It's like being pulled over by the policeman—there's only one correct answer, and it's not that of the police department; it's that of the person in front of
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. then why do they show bones?
why do researchers report that the dosage is 20 times higher than TSA has reported?

if you get imaged 20 times.

why are you defending this? do you have expertise on radiology?
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You are dealing in fuzzy facts kiddo.
This is not about defending or promoting..but dealing with facts. When you take something and then jump to conclusions that have nothing to do with facts.. your point is lost..


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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. what is your expertise in radiology?
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 07:43 PM by CreekDog
seriously. you're saying it's safe on someone else's say so.

do you work in DC?
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Where does it show bones?
I deal in facts not fantasy.. you show me something that shows (actual facts and links) that these machines are like taking 10 exrays and showing bones.


Connect the dots here kiddo.. the TSA workers could not be there around that if those machines were giving off that kind of radiation.

Everyone in the airport would be glowing in a matter of weeks

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's designed to penetrate 1/4" into the skin, which in the lower leg will display bones
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 07:54 PM by CreekDog
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1079123-lax-security-x-rays-cast-options.html

and also consider this:

http://amputeemommy.blogspot.com/2010/11/its-about-safety.html

"After standing in a variety of positions for the necessary six x-rays, I was hopeful another TSA screening would come to an end. Unfortunately the agents were not able to interpret my images. I was asked to decipher the x-ray images for them!"
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. those are two conversation blogs..
the amputeemommy blog :
I am not against the extra screening procedures for amputees. I have always been kind and respectful. I am compliant when the Cast Scope machine is utilized although I am annoyed by the doses of radiation to which I am subjected versus the amount endured by my fellow passengers. Truth be told, I am perhaps one of the most easy going amputees to pass through airport security.

I become frustrated and angry when, after being subjected to six doses of "safe" radiation, I am required to interpret the images. Yes, I know what the images are showing. Looking at the images, I think that my prosthetic components are easy to comprehend.

the flyertalk blog:
Unfortunately I have a broken arm. The two times I flew out of LAX (not OGG, LAS, SNA, etc) they had to x-ray the cast. They take 4 "pictures" to view all sides of the cast. The x-ray is strong enough to see the bones. I asked the TSA agent why only LAX, she said that any airport that has the machine has to use it. I asked her how safe it was, she said it can only x-ray the cast. When I showed her the bones in the x-ray, she just smiled. How can I find out if this is dangerous and if I have the right to ask for a swab (as in the other airports) instead of the x-ray? I know this isn't a common question but when you never know when you too could trip over luggage on a German train and break your arm. Thanks for any information.

If that was true that they saw the bones in the flyertalks cast, then the TSA worker is at a great risk to their health.



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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. still wondering what your expertise in radiology is
it's your opinion against that of UCSF, the hospital i was born in.

but maybe you also have a Nobel Prize. so i want to give you the fair hearing that your educational and professional background deserves.

====================

Dear Dr. Holdren:

We, a number of University of California, San Francisco faculty, are writing — see the attached memo — to call your attention to our concerns about the potential serious health risks of the recently adopted whole body back scatter X-ray airport security scanners. This is an urgent situation as these X-ray scanners are rapidly being implemented as a primary screening step for all air travel passengers.

By way of introduction one of us (John Sedat) met you recently when he and his wife Dr. Elizabeth Blacckburn, a 2009 Nobel Laureate, talked with President Obama last ecemer. Dr. Sedat is Professor Emeritus in Biochemistry and Biophyisics at the University of California, San Francisco, with expertise in imagin. He is alo a member of the National Academy of Sciences. The other cosigner incluses Dr. Marc Shuman, an internatioally well known and respected cancer expert and UCSF profesor, as well as Drs. David Agard and Robert Stroud, who are UCSF Professors, X-ray crystallographers, imaging experts and NAS members.

Sincerely yours,

John Sedat, Ph.D
David Agard, Ph.D
Marc Shuman, M.D.
Robert Stroud, Ph.D.

LETTER OF CONCERN

We are writing to call your attention to serious concerns about the potential health risksof the recently adopted whole body backscatter X-ray airport security scanners. This isan urgent situation as these X-ray scanners are rapidly being implemented as a primaryscreening step for all air travel passengers.

Our overriding concern is the extent to which the safety of this scanning device hasbeen adequately demonstrated. This can only be determined by a meeting of animpartial panel of experts that would include medical physicists and radiation biologistsat which all of the available relevant data is reviewed.

An important consideration is that a large fraction of the population will be subject tothe new X-ray scanners and be at potential risk, as discussed below. This raises anumber of ‘red flags’. Can we have an urgent second independent evaluation?

The Red Flags

The physics of these X-rays is very telling: the X-rays are Compton-Scattering off outermolecule bonding electrons and thus inelastic (likely breaking bonds).

Unlike other scanners, these new devices operate at relatively low beam energies(28keV). The majority of their energy is delivered to the skin and the underlyingtissue. Thus, while the dose would be safe if it were distributed throughout the volumeof the entire body, the dose to the skin may be dangerously high.

The X-ray dose from these devices has often been compared in the media to the cosmicray exposure inherent to airplane travel or that of a chest X-ray. However, thiscomparison is very misleading: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrayshave much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriatelyunderstood in terms of the whole body volume dose. In contrast, these new airportscanners are largely depositing their energy into the skin and immediately adjacenttissue, and since this is such a small fraction of body weight/vol, possibly by one to twoorders of magnitude, the real dose to the skin is now high.

In addition, it appears that real independent safety data do not exist. A search,ultimately finding top FDA radiation physics staff, suggests that the relevant radiationquantity, the Flux has not been characterized. Instead an indirect test (Air Kerma) was made thatemphasized the whole body exposure value, and thus it appears that the danger is lowwhen compared to cosmic rays during airplane travel and a chest X-ray dose.

In summary, if the key data (flux-integrated photons per unit values) were available, itwould be straightforward to accurately model the dose being deposited in the skin and adjacent tissues using available computer codes, which would resolve the potentialconcerns over radiation damage.

Our colleagues at UCSF, dermatologists and cancer experts, raise specific important concerns:

* A) The large population of older travelers, >65 years of age, is particularly at risk from the mutagenic effects of the X-rays based onthe known biology of melanocyte aging.
* B) A fraction of the female population is especially sensitive to mutagenesis-provoking radiation leading to breast cancer. Notably, because these women, who have defects in DNA rempair mechanisms, are particularly prone to cance,r X-ray mamograms are not performed on them. The dose to breast tissue beneath the skin represents a similar risk.
* C) Blood (white blood cells) perfusing the skin is also at risk.
* D) The population of immunocoompromised individual — HIV and cancer patients (see above) is liekly to be at risk for cancer induction by the high skin dose.
* E) The risk of radiation emmission to childern and adolescents does not appear to have been fully evaulated.
* F) The policy towards pregnant women needs to be defined once the theoretical risks to the fetus are determined.
* G) Because of the proximity of the testicles to the skin, this tissue is at risk for sperm mutagenesis.
* H) Have the effects of the radiation on the cornea and thymus been determined?

Moreover, there are a number of ‘red flags’ related to the hardware itself. Because this device can scan a human in a few seconds, the X-ray beam is very intense. Any glitch in power at any point in the hardware (or more importantly in software) that stops the device could cause an intense radiation dose to a single spot on the skin. Who will oversee problems with overall dose after repair or software problems? The TSA is already complaining about resolution limitations; who will keep the manufacturers and/or TSA from just raising the dose, an easy way to improve signal-to-noise and get higher resolution? Lastly, given the recent incident (on December 25th), how do we know whether the manufacturer or TSA, seeking higher resolution, will scan the groin area more slowly leading to a much higher total dose?

After review of the available data we have already obtained, we suggest that additional critical information be obtained, with the goal to minimize the potential health risks of total body scanning. One can study the relevant X-ray dose effects with modern molecular tools. Once a small team of appropriate experts is assembled, an experimental plan can be designed and implemented with the objective of obtaining information relevant to our concerns expressed above, with attention paid to completing the information gathering and formulating recommendations in a timely fashion. We would like to put our current concerns into perspective. As longstanding UCSF scientists and physicians, we have witnessed critical errors in decisions that have seriously affected the health of thousands of people in the United States. These unfortunate errors were made because of the failure to recognize potential adverse outcomes of decisions made at the federal level. Crises create a sense of urgency that frequently leads to hasty decisions where unintended consequences are not recognized. Examples include the failure of the CDC to recognize the risk of blood transfusions in the early stages of the AIDS epidemic, approval of drugs and devices by the FDA without sufficient review, and improper standards set by the EPA, to name a few.

Similarly, there has not been sufficient review of the intermediate and long-term effects of radiation exposure associated with airport scanners. There is good reason to believ that these scanners will increase the risk of cancer to children and other vulnerable populations. We are unanimous in believing that the potential health consequences need to be rigorously studied before these scanners are adopted. Modifications that reduce radiation exposure need to be explored as soon as possible.

In summary we urge you to empower an impartial panel of experts to reevaluate the potential health issues we have raised before there are irrevocable long-term consequences to the health of our country. These negative effects may on balance far outweigh the potential benefit of increased detection of terrorists.

Original PDF here
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I do not play a doctor in my spare time on a policital blog
I read that earlier today. Again.. if these machines are giving off that kind of radiation.. the people we should be the most concerned about at this moment are the TSA workers. Do you get that?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. .
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 08:15 PM by CreekDog
.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. You are running around posting and emailing me that a scan is like having 10 exrays
It is not. You are the one who set this up with making such ludicrous statements.. That is what I disagree with you about..I hate hyperbole

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That Popular Mechanics article said that it takes 10 xrays from this thing on average
for one limb.

that's a direct quote.

will you get in the body scanner 10 times in a row?
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. they used the word exray interchangelbly with scan.. It is not a medical exray
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. UCSF researchers call them x rays
are they wrong?

"This is an urgent situation as these X-ray scanners are rapidly being implemented as a primary screening step for all air travel passengers."

the words of:

John Sedat, Ph.D
David Agard, Ph.D
Marc Shuman, M.D.
Robert Stroud, Ph.D.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. My med prof pal is very concerned. Says 'Opt out'
He's concerned about TSA workers and passengers, unlike the private jet types like Chertoff.

Why believe Michael Chertoff now? Nobody believed his lies during Katrina. Not to mention when he was head counsel to impeach President Clinton.
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here is another interesting article about skin dose
http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/safety/content/article/113619/1521147

The benefits of irradiating the public have to outweigh the risks, and because these machines are such big business, it deserves a pause.

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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. Unrecced and hidden
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Go get your dose of radiation, don't worry, be happy! n/t
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