Does anyone here buy the "it's still a good bill without a public option or buy-in" meme?

[Ken Burch]

n/t.

[movonne]

1. It is a sellout...

[dkf]

2. Nope.

Sorry.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Not just NO.

FUCK no.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

104. OK now I know you're upset. 'Cause I've never seen you curse.

:thumbsup:

[VMI Dem]

4. The same ones that bought the Afghan surge as a path to peace.

[polpilot]

9. BOMBS..YES!!!! HEALTHCARE NO!!! President 'Oh Bomb 'em'

agenda is on the roll!!! Get out of the way!!

[El Supremo]

5. No fucking way!

[AnOhioan]

6. A cheerleader or two maybe...

For the rest of us...nope

[Joe Bacon]

7. No

It's the insurance companies wet dream. Thanks for nothing, LIEberman!

[Diane R]

8. No. I've given up...and I'm extremely unhappy.

[IndianaGreen]

10. They are trying to sell us a lemon

We are the fools if we buy it!

[DJ13]

11. No

No cost containment through increased competition from a real PO coupled with mandates is a loser.

[timeforpeace]

12. My guess is that Barack Obama does.

[JVS]

16. There is a difference between buying and selling

[JVS]

13. No

[Zynx]

14. It's a mediocre bill. I don't like it without a public option.

[asdjrocky]

15. Nooooooo.

[David Zephyr]

17. Progressives should do what Kucinich did and vote to kill it.

I'm sure with all the benefits the insurance cartel will have instituionalized for them that there would be enough Republicans to make up for the loss of the liberal vote.

Progressives in the House and Senate need to now kill this thing.

Obama's ego doesn't come first.

[NorthCarolina]

18. Coming from THIS Democratic Party? Not a chance. (nt)

[Donnachaidh]

19. no -- absolutely NO

And if they don't have a public option they need to roll this paper onto a toilet roll and use it for crapper paper - because it's WORTHLESS without it.

[Dinger]

20. Nope (nt)

[WeDidIt]

21. Nope, I';m done buying into it. n/t

[Lord Helmet]

22. Nope.

[Better Believe It]

23. Yes. A piece of crap is better than a piece of shit!

[Ken Burch]

24. What about a piece of dookie?

n/t.

[Dinger]

25. I'm Waiting For Someone (With Honesty) To Say Yes And Defend It

dana fucking ba$h is all giggly and happy and the PO being eliminated and the Medicare buy in.

[jenmito]

26. It's still better than nothing. It can and will be something to build on. n/t

[bigjohn16]

28. The new Democratic platform for 2010, "It's better than nothing." nt

[jenmito]

31. It will still help hundreds of thousands of people. And it will be improved upon. n/t

[Ken Burch]

36. In 2024, maybe.

No bill this weak gets improved anytime quickly.

This is the healthcare version of the Civil Rights Act of 1957. The one nobody remembers because it didn't actually change anything.

[jenmito]

39. That's your negative attitude talking. I disagree. And again, it will help

MANY people even if passed without a PO or medicare buy-in.

[eridani]

81. It is not going to help anyone, except possibly very wealthy people with pre-existing conditions

It is going to drive tens of millions into poverty.

[Ken Burch]

35. You can't build on lost ground

And there are no meaningful gains without buy-in. The rest doesn't help anyone.

[jenmito]

40. It helps people with pre-existing conditions. n/t

[LooseWilly]

60. The ones in jobs that provide insurance, for as long as the companies continue to provide it.

Yes. And in exchange, 45 million or so will be mandated to buy crappy insurance. You're ok with that? Help a couple hundred thousand, and screw tens of millions?...

You're obviously not one of us tens of millions...

[ZombieHorde]

79. What will the maximum co-pay be? nt

[Lyric]

94. Not unless they have good credit.

How many people with serious medical problems (pre-existing conditions) do you think have good credit? Medical bills destroy credit faster than any other factor, period. More bankruptcies come from catastrophic medical costs than anything else.

The only people with pre-existing conditions that this bill helps are the few who are wealthy and comfortable enough to have kept up with their medical bills with the cash/credit/insurance resources that they already have, thus preserving their credit scores. And do you really, honestly think that the insurance companies, out of the "goodness" of their hearts, will refrain from imposing credit-score requirements as a backdoor, underhanded way of weeding out the people with pre-existing conditions? 'Cause if you do, I've got some gorgeous ocean-front land here in West Virginia to sell you.

This bill does NOT cover all pre-existing conditions. They forgot a few. They're called poverty, need, disaster, bankruptcy, and crisis. Tough shit for the peons, eh? At least the rich diabetic lawyer down the street who wants to buy health insurance won't have to pay out-of-pocket anymore. Gotta look out for the important people, I guess. Hurrah!

[Milo_Bloom]

102. Not really.

It actually does signicant harm as it creates the illusion of protection, but there are many MANY loopholes that make the protection worthless.

[high density]

38. I kept telling myself that until today

I'm preparing for more status quo, because that seems to be what the Democrats are gearing up to push through the Senate.

[jenmito]

44. Not being able to reject people with pre-existing conditions is a big change. n/t

[high density]

46. It's nice

But I think that is just another excuse for the insurance companies to continue their 10% annual premium increases unless we have serious cost controls or competition.

[jenmito]

50. For me, it's more than "nice."

It would finally let my husband get a different job if he wanted, without having to worry about whether or not his company's insurance accepted me.

[eridani]

96. Great. So you get the insurance, and you file a claim--

They deny it. Then what?

[dgibby]

58. Where's the cost containment?

How much are you going to have to pay for coverage? And what about the loophole? What's a "reasonable" amount the insurance companies will be expected to pay out before they cut off annual coverage?

As I understand it, if you max out your annual coverage on Jan 1st, you'd still have to make payments, even though you wouldn't be covered for the rest of the year.

Then there's the mandate. No public option, no medicare buy in, but you still have to buy coverage, but what's that going to cost? And what happens to those who can't afford coverage or the fine levied against them for failure to pay?

I think this is the MOTHER of all windfalls to the insurance companies, just like the bank bailouts and just like credit card reform.

[eridani]

82. Bullshit. They can still charge you whatever they want

And they can still reject you for having bad credit.

[pecwae]

85. The bad credit risk

most likely excludes as many as pre-existing conditions.

[eridani]

95. Ya think? Maybe people who have been sick--

--are also people who have had trouble paying their bills?

[Milo_Bloom]

103. Of course they can.

They can impose other restrictions (such as credit score) then charge whatever they want and cap benefits.

Giving you something that is worthless isn't giving you something.

[backscatter712]

108. Very true. The bill sucks, but is an improvement over no bill. n/t

[high density]

27. No

Time to stop capitulating. Obama stressed over and over that the reform needs some sort of mechanism to control prices and based on what I can see that is being completely stripped out of the law. It's total BS, my fellow "Democrats" in the Senate are now defending the status quo just like the Repukes have been doing all along. Sickening.

[phleshdef]

29. Remove the mandates and its still a good bill because of the regulations.

No one can argue that banning insurance companies from gender discrimination, pre-existing condition discrimination and rescission are bad things. No one.

[grantcart]

43. you cannot enforce pre existing selection without mandates

mandates without public option is incomprehensible.

[Ken Burch]

47. Mandates without public option is just a "mandatory insurance bill"

And it's a loss for working people that won't be regained.

[grantcart]

53. Without the public option the Democratic Party will be walking into a trap

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8647330

[Warren Stupidity]

65. what regulations are those?

be specific.

[eridani]

83. Well, there's a Sunshine Provision to expose price gouging

Translation: there will be an annual list of Very Naughty Boys and Girls, who had just better shape up, or they'll be on that list again next year. :puke: :grr:

[phleshdef]

93. Can you fucking read?

[Warren Stupidity]

99. it seems you cannot list one meaningful reform

[phleshdef]

110. They are in my post. If you can't read or refuse to, I'm not gonna baby you.

[ZombieHorde]

92. If the co-payments are crazy then those things are pointless. nt

[Umbral]

30. No, but you knew it was coming. Spin, baby spin! nt

[beaglelover]

32. HELL NO! n/t

[amborin]

33. NO

[Hawkeye-X]

34. Nope, and you can send that to all the a-holes in the US Senate.

Lip service, indeed.

[MadBadger]

37. No, but I also dont buy the argument that nothing is better than something.

[David Zephyr]

52. This time, MadBladger, nothing will be better than something.

When every American is forced by federal fiat to purchase corporate health-care for the first time in our nation's history, nothing would have been better.

What a deal the megacorps are getting. First the banks and now our health "care" corporations.

[WillyT]

41. No...

:puke:

[Kermitt Gribble]

42. No. n/t

[grantcart]

45. nope

I'll continue to listen but if you have mandates you have to have a public option.

I simply don't believe the requirement that 90% be used for actual care

[Jackpine Radical]

48. This is about what I expected the Dems to deliver.

My hopes sometimes got irrationally higher, but deep down I knew we were gonna get screwed again. And we did. For all the talk, all the bullshit, all the little donations I made to this & that advocacy group, we have nichts. Nada. Rien. Zilch. If you were smarter than me, you invested heavily in health insurance stock at some point when they were momentarily low. Con fucken gratulations. You have a red-hot little investment there.

[winyanstaz]

49. no...its a bad bill......

and a disaster for a struggling Nation.

[mkultra]

51. OBAMA IS LIARING TO US!

[S_E_Fudd]

54. It was barely acceptable with it...

It's worse than nothing now...

[27inCali]

55. NOT EVEN CLOSE

[donheld]

56. It's health care reform in name only.

[LooseWilly]

57. No... it's a mandated and subsidized handout to the industry without thems...

And without the medicare option for the 55-64 yo's... the rest of us don't even get the warm feeling of knowing that others are benefiting, while we're being screwed.

[Digit]

59. No

Not even close.

[jefferson_dem]

61. Yes.

n/t

[Eric Condon]

62. It's barely a good bill WITH a public option.

As long as there is any form of for-profit health care in this country, we will never know justice in this pitiful excuse for a country.

The insurance companies make their money from denying coverage, and handing people a death sentence. Think about that for a minute: there are huge corporations who have a vested financial interest in the deaths of the people who pay into them.

That's why politicians can't be for both us and them. You CANNOT do both. Either you're with us, or you're with the insurance companies. There is no middle ground, because they want us dead. I hate to use such black-and-white Bush rhetoric but it's true.

[Capn Sunshine]

63. I "Buy " It because it's true

We've been trying to pass a Health Care bill since, what, Roosevelt? Over 50 years? In that context, bill is a victory , or maybe you don't think there's "any" resistance to the notion. That's just a "meme" too, huh?

This bill gives us a nice floor to work from, once we mop up the tears and barf from the crybabies who don't grasp reality.

[Armstead]

67. Mandates without single payer is the stick without the carrot

This bill is a victory for the insurance industry. And it will gibve a black eye to the whole idea of health reform, when people realize that they are getting screwed over by mandates and no real control of private insurers.

[Capn Sunshine]

70. well, you can cry if you want to

me, I plan on fighting for Medicare for all. There's so much bullshit to overcome.

I think the insurance companies shot their wad on this. It's a pyrrhic ovictory for the; the whole country now sees them without their "aren't we good" advertising cloak.

We also know exactly which senators are a problem/whore

[Warren Stupidity]

68. There is nothing much in this bill that helps the situation and plenty that makes it worse

plus it is likely a political disaster if it passes as it imposes mandates on people to purchase shitty overpriced insurance. There is no win in this bill, it is all fail.

[Capn Sunshine]

69. I just don't agree, Warren

Just imposing the "no cancelling, no pre-existing conditions" part is fucking great. I can live without the mandates, and this gives us more targets to fight against. But seriously, there's a lot in this bill that works good. The CBO estimates over 180,000 people will live that might have died otherwise.

Those are good things.

By the way, I'm a Democratic Party member of the Progressive Caucus in California. We have been kicking this can since the 1960s.

I feel like now we're finally getting somewhere.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. annual caps: check; rate hikes for pre-existing conditions: check;

mandate with no price control: check; romney care only worse: you betcha!

I given up trying to defend this mess.

[Tom Rinaldo]

66. No.

We all know that the final bill will have tons of fine print insertions that will turn out to favor special interests. We already know that it will include mandates forcing us all to purchase private insurance. If special interests already have the power to roll a Democratic Congress out of everything that they feared and thqt the base fought tooth and nail for, they will continue to roll Congress from here on out.

No Deal.

[slinkerwink]

71. No, I don't.

I cannot in good conscience go for a mandated bailout of the private insurers with no public option.

[Kablooie]

72. Yes! It's a good bill for the insurance corporations. Very good!

[Blue_In_AK]

73. Nope,. n/t

[LittleBlue]

74. Nope. Only the sellouts buy that.

And I'm not one of them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

75. No.

There needs to be a low-cost option open to anyone, and no mandates. If it isn't good enough for people to want it voluntarily, it's a fraud.

[Scarsdale Vibe]

76. Of course it's still a good bill.

Between 20-40,000 people die each year because of lack of insurance and more than 100,000 declare bankruptcy due to medical-related costs. The bills in the Senate and the House would reduce these numbers significantly. The emotional baggage that the left has invested in the public option is worth shit to the people whose lives will be saved by the expansion of Medicaid, subsidies, and insurance regulation contained in the current legislation.

Ezra Klein called a spade a spade today, and accused Lieberman of contributing to the potential deaths of 150,000 people over the span of a decade if he manages to kill health care. Progressives will share that responsibility if they kill health care reform because of hurt feelings over the public option.

[eridani]

84. And those people will continue to die and be bankrupted

--only useless shitstains will have emptied their bank accounts first.

[taught_me_patience]

77. Without a public option sucks really bad.

I cannot support it.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

78. "It's Still better than nothing" BULLCRAP.. It IS Nothing

This entire exercise is INSANE!!!

Fuck Joe Lieberman and his Haddasah Healthcare WHORE bitch!!!

I have lived through the travesty of Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam and Richard Nixon's Watergate

yet I have NEVER in my life been so disgusted with our political system as I am now...

This "healthcare bill" is turning out to be pure unadulterated BULLSHIT..

[Raine]

80. NO, I don't!

It's nothing but BULLSHIT! :argh:

[Capt. America]

86. All the money they need for war, none for health care (unless you are an insurance company).

[freddie mertz]

87. No. It's a piece of shit.

The only issue up for debate is whether it is worse for nothing to pass (which shows the Dems to be incompetent and unable to govern) or if lousy legislation passes (which shows that Dems cannot deliver on their basic campaign promises and long-standing platform positions).

Either way, it's bad times for the party, and for America.

[bigwillq]

88. No (nt)

[Bullet1987]

89. Fuck No...only the ones that walk in lockstep with the Party believe that

[paparush]

90. Its a fucking Script.

Act I - Grab the audience's attention. "Look, its gonna be tough, but we're going to have a good bill that includes real insurance reform and a strong public option. So, stay tuned." (loud clapping)

Act II - Dramatic music, villain enters stage left and makes off with the damsel public option. (Chorus of boos)

Act III - Surprise! You're not watching a drama, you're watching a farce. Behold as we remove the masks and reveal that we were really wolves in sheep's clothing. Thanks for sticking around, and no, there's no refund on the ticket price.

[tekisui]

91. Without those and with mandates?

No.

[mochajava666]

97. HELL NO!

It's just another huge transfer of wealth to the health care industrial complex.

I lost my audacity to hope, and my ability to believe bullshit from Obama.

[Clear Blue Sky]

98. No

[kenny blankenship]

100. I once said, "before they're done, they will have you *begging* for the trigger"

But it was just a joke. Then.

[Milo_Bloom]

101. No. It actually does more harm than good!

[Fire1]

105. I'm a staunch supporter but there is no way I can raionalize

this bill. As I told Pelosi in my e-mail, good luck to all dems in 2010. Your're going to need it.

[calico1]

106. Only if you are in the health insurance business. n/t

[backscatter712]

107. It's better than no bill.

Sorry, but if the bill dies, we'll get zero reform for at least a generation - it'll be like '94.

The people who think we can torpedo this bill, introduce a single-payer bill tomorrow and get it anywhere except languishing in a committee's circular file are naive.

We've got to take this bill, as sucky as it is, because it's better than not having a bill, and it makes it more possible to revisit the issue in a shorter period of time.

[Better Believe It]

109. No it isn't. And passage will open the door to social security cuts next year.

Those cuts will take place in the name of reform, will not be opposed by the White House and will result in a cut in benefits and an increase in the retirement age.

A conservative bi-partisan coalition will propose a commission to "study" a reform. They will be given the power to bring their proposal for entitlement cuts to Congress for an up and down vote, without Congressional hearings and without amendments.

51 votes will pass the cuts. There will be no filibuster. 20 or 30 Senators might vote against the cuts.

If this health insurance industry bill is passed that will open the door to more cuts in social programs .... all in the name of reform and improvements of course!