For supporters of President Obama

[angee_is_mad]

there is a safe haven. The Afrosphere.

We knew this wasn't going to be a cakewalk. Don't mean to bring race into it, but the black man has never had it easy in this country. We (blacks) knew he wasn't going to be handed anything on a silver platter and are not surprise with what is happening now. We also knew there would be a backlash against his popularity.

Do we like what is happening? Hell to da naw! A person of color probably has more of an urgent need for HRC than any other group. We also know that one has to make sacrifices to make it to another day. Ask that single mother who has to choose between paying the light bill or the heating bill in December. Sit in a dark house or a cold one? Candles or blankets till payday. HRC today, will not be the same one a few years from now. Do I have a guarantee of that? NO, but can you guarantee by killing the bill, will get it passed later with PO, single payer, Medicare 55+ ? When we will lose more seats than what we have now?

For the ones wishing and posting that Obama need to go, remember Blacks and 1st time voters put Obama over the top in NC,VA, and Indiana. Thank God for Gary, Indiana and a lot of politicians rode his coat tails for all it was worth to DC.

Free speech is welcome and valued, but when you have posts suggesting that this person or that person could challenge MY (our) President in 2012, shit is getting to damn crazy in here.

[JohnnyLib2]

1. Needed to be said.

:thumbsup:

[angee_is_mad]

16. Amazing how Progressives perspectives on the issues

are colored by race sometimes. I agree with the link below because I have seen it played on here many times.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/12/16/132039/17

by BooMan
Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 01:20:39 PM EST

The progressive blogosphere is completely dominated by academic progressives. Bloggers of color tend to be just as highly educated as white bloggers. Most of the really well known progressive bloggers have advanced degrees, in law, economics, political science, or something else. They tend to be interested in the theoretical aspects of public policy, like determining what might be the ideal way to deliver affordable, accessible health care to all our citizens. That's good. We need that. But urban and labor activists tend to work on the ground in communities of need. They are focused on giving people help right now, not on winning some epic ideological battle in Washington DC. Their idea of progress is much more mundane. Can they help Mrs. Smith keep her house? Can they can get Mr. Jones the dialysis treatment he needs? What can they do about these payday lenders? Can they negotiate slightly more pay or better benefits for their workers?

So, when it comes to something like the health care bill, you'll see academic progressives throwing up their hands and saying that no bill should be passed if it doesn't do x,y, and z. And they have solid reasons for saying that, reasons that are substantive both politically and policy-wise. And then you'll see a lot of urban progressives looking at them quizzically, asking "are you out of your ever-loving tree?"

The more you've worked on the ground in urban or labor activism, the less likely you are to cut off your nose to spite your face. If a bill can make health care available to all the diabetes patients you know, you're not going to worry about its lack of cost containment or the private/public balance of the insurance providers.

What concerns me is less the imperfection of the Senate bill than the politically foolish and dangerous idea of mandating that people buy private insurance. Because I am going to honest with you. I have progressive goals, but I think the most important issue facing our world right now is not terrorism or climate change or health care, but the dangerous insanity of America's Republican Party. And I don't support doing things, however high-minded, that will put us at risk of seeing them back in power. From that standpoint, I am totally conservative. I will eat a lot of shit to save or even grow our majorities. So, my problem with the bill is not so much that it is a missed opportunity to destroy the private insurance industry or that it doesn't contain costs enough or any other particular feature. The bill will still help millions of people. My problem is that it is not going to be popular and you'll see people voting Republican as a result. And that is not something humanity can afford, because a revitalized GOP that isn't purged of its current Teabagging Palinism is very dangerous indeed.]

[LooseWilly]

55. "What concerns me is... the politically foolish... mandating that people buy private insurance..."

(First sentence of the last paragraph of your own quote.)

Mandating insurance purchase, while not offering an alternative to the (regarded as crooked) insurance industry insurance options. Bad. I agree with BooMan... it feels like a tax, like being forced to buy some shit that never seemed worth it before, just to have my money, our money, keep the prices that businesses, and corporations, pay for health insurance for their employees (benefits on top of wages?? and wages better than mine to start with... and I have to pay to stabilize their benefits??) stable?

I'm not sure that progressive perspectives are necessarily "colored" by race... but rather by class and the experiences that come of that. That race and class are intertwined is idiotic to deny, but likewise to try to "untwine" the two is also liable to confuse the influence on perspective.

The uninsured and underpaid who fake their way through with what they've got, black, white, brown, red, yellow, or green... are mostly all liable to object to mandated insurance. Pull the mandate, the working class isn't liable to object (from what I know of us) to "reform" for some. Add a public option, and we might actually think we're not being screwed for a change (which is probably why the public option had to be dropped).

I'm with BooMan though... "What concerns me is less the imperfection of the Senate bill than the politically foolish and dangerous idea of mandating that people buy private insurance."

I'm not sure I'm as afraid of the Republican Party though... not when Democratic Party actions sometimes run so close to parallel... I'm personally more afraid of the Democratic Party not being afraid of consequences from their own base, if they behave like Republicans...

[freddie mertz]

114. Important point. Should perhaps be its own OP. nt.

[treestar]

117. How could they do it without the mandate, though?

Single payer would be mandated too. People would decide not to get insurance, and then we'd pay for their ER visits the same way we do now. If they get the subsidy, they'd have to use to for insurance, not something else. We wouldn't get anything as a people if they used it for something else.

[LooseWilly]

143. Give the people an public option that is affordable, and they will buy it. A mandate won't be needed

-Barack Obama (paraphrase) from the campaign.

How has that changed?

Suddenly, when the administration can't get a public option planned- that's when the mandate is needed?

That, as an idea to consider, is stupid.

A mandate, in and of itself, is not a bad thing... if there is a public option or single payer, some alternative to the private insurance companies that have proven themselves untrustworthy scores of times over. Or, the Feds could regulate them (essentially until they become a de facto public option).

Mandates to buy an unregulated product is madness. Why not mandate the purchase of umbrellas, sanitary hand wipes, & warm socks? The Feds could then "contract" with Wal-Mart to monitor the enforcement, and all citizens would have to go into their nearest Wal-Mart to present proof that they have purchased the required number of umbrellas, sanitary hand wipes, and warm socks each year. A notarized and signed off form will then be presented to the citizen, which must be included in said citizen's tax forms in order to avoid a tax penalty. Orthopedic shoes could also be required. And ergonomic chairs. And insulation... can't forget the insulation (you rent?- you'll need to have a notarized form from your landlord in order to get a waiver).

And on and on...

[Cha]

146. Thatnks for this link to BooMan,

angee..I was wondering what his thoughts were on this..as practical as ever.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Obama won't even carry Indiana in 12, not even Lake County

The extraordinary GOTV effort of last year, won't happen again.

[O is 44]

11. Did not this state vote for Bush

twice? Why are you so sure that Obama can not win Indiana again? The electorate seems to have short memory and banks on instant gratification, who knows what shape we will be in by 2011 or who he is even up against. Or is this just your hope?

[IndianaGreen]

42. We got a lot of people to the polls on the basis of their hopes for a better future

people that hadn't voted before, or that hadn't voted in a long time. I registered a lot of voters, and I drove half a dozen of them to the polls, and spent gods know how many Wednesdays and Saturdays canvassing.

Our hopes have been dashed by the jobless recovery, the bank bailouts (while they continue to ream the public), the wars, and the betrayal on universal health care.

[O is 44]

52. It is still early,,,

things can turn around I choose to be an optimist. The facts show that it has not been a jobless recovery, although slow. And Bush did the bank bailouts, I blame Obama for AIG. He campaigned on escalating the war. I do not think he betrayed us on healthcare he is a pragmatist, most did not want to see that during the campaign. Congress is broken. I have no illusions that this will be an easy climb, this economy was really in bad shape when he got there.


By the way I'm in California so we were always a very safe state for him but as someone who voted for the guy I really appreciate your hard work in Indiana. Sorry you feel so disappointed this early. Now I understand all your posts and OP's a bit better.

[TheWraith]

14. Thank you for your bastion of enthusiasm and positivity.

Everyone's touched, really.

[treestar]

118. You wish

Thanks for your predictions for 3 years from now. They are so useful. :rofl:

[Clio the Leo]

3. Sit down and share a piece of sweet potato pie with me....

.... we both need it after a day like today.

[Cha]

6. My goodness girl, did you make that?

The best I could do was have Whipped Sweet Potatoes for Thanksgiving from a White House recipe.:9

[Clio the Leo]

10. No........

....... my friend Hope did!!! ;)

(white girls dont make sweet potato pie! We just eat it!)

[Cha]

12. So Hope supports Pres Obama as of

Thanksgiving?:)

[Clio the Leo]

15. Nah ..... Hope springs eternal. ;) NT

[rebel with a cause]

132. This white girl makes sweet potato pie.

Probably not as good as someone who knows what they're doing, but still trying. ;)

[Raine1967]

133. some White girls do...

Of course, I tarted it up a bit... :D (and I kinda like your friends name...)

[angee_is_mad]

17. Ain't that the truth

:toast: Beer is on me.

[Clio the Leo]

27. Thanks and I reserve the right...

.... to steal your line, "shit is getting to damn crazy in here."

Reminds me of...

(first clip)
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/2009/02/05/barack-obama-is-tired-of-your-motherfucking-shit/#

[angee_is_mad]

29. OMG

OMG!!!!

[Clio the Leo]

33. Had you never heard those before?

I have them saved to my ipod and I'll be driving down the road and in between Lady Ga Ga and Sam Cooke is a short burst of the Leader of the Free World saying, "you aint my bitch n! buy your own damn fries!"

never fails to crack me up.

[angee_is_mad]

39. No I haven't

and I've never seen this before neither.

It's Millie Jackson so you know it has PROFANITY.
link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGJgyuAu6eo

Ditto Millie, Ditto!!!!!!

[Clio the Leo]

41. lol, my ancestors would come up out of their gaves....

..... and beat me if I listented to all of that .... but yeah, my thoughts exactly.

(not to you of course lol)

[LooseWilly]

38. heh... wow, those are some great clips.

:rofl: :rofl: (breathe. breathe.) :rofl:

[Clio the Leo]

43. Anyone who hasn't LISTENED to "Dreams of my Father"...

... hasn't lived.

[LooseWilly]

57. Hmm... noted, but I'll assume those clips aren't from the book. Or, are they?...

heh, if so, I really gotta read that book...

[Clio the Leo]

125. You might want to read the page I liked to...

... and THEN read the book ...... the fact that you haven't explains a lot gives support to a long-standing theory of mine. ;)

[boppers]

104. Brilliant.

Just.... brilliant.

[Cha]

4. Thanks, angee, your

thoughts are always valued by me.

jackandjill and ? ?

[angee_is_mad]

19. weeseeyou and Boo

Actually, but I've been on JJP tonight also.

[Cha]

37. Thanks!

[xchrom]

5. If I wait long enough

Op's at du will always exceedy expectations for weird.

This far, far exceeds my expectations for weird.

[napi21]

7. I'm not black but I'm an Obama supporter. I know there's still

a lot of carism in the US and I hate it but there's not a LOT I can do about it other than chastise anyone who is racist when I'm around. The problems Obama is having I honestly are not from racism. MOST of his strong opposition are Pubs and I really believe it wouldn't matter who was in the WH, if they were a Dem they were going to bring 'em down!

[angee_is_mad]

21. the Black Progressive perspective

on what is going on is different from the White Progressive perspective. if you go to the Afrosphere you will see it.

It's not racism, it is the fact your POV is different based on your life experience. We can imagine what he is going through and having to deal with, because we have dealt with it in some form or another.

[Clio the Leo]

24. Was there any discussion about the Conyers "demeaning" thing?

That would make for an interesting read.

[angee_is_mad]

32. He need to spend some time with his wife

but yeah there has been some mention of that. Also Al's appearance on larry King tonight. Hate I missed that one.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eleny]

8. This is about green not about black

Americans can't afford the mandates and premiums without caps. If he gets primaried it will be because he chose to side with the corporations and nothing more.

[Luciferous]

28. Agreed nt

[rebel with a cause]

134. BS

And what was the reason bush got to run free for eight years and do what he did? No one did more for the corporations than bush and cheney, and they were corporations that were lining their pockets with their ill gotten goods. Was it because he was for the everyday man or because he belonged to the rich white man club that he was allowed to do so? The answer is the later and the everyday man who was republican supported him because he knew that was what he was suppose to do.

For anyone to think that none of these attacks on Obama have to do with the fact that he is not the usual rich white man in office does not understand the way this country (our society) works. Even some of the attacks on Clinton was due to the fact that he was not from the upper class. This is a have and have-not country and it becomes more so everyday. And if you study racism and/or racial relations you will find that the Black man does not have equality no matter how much we tell ourselves he does.

I have the luxury of being a white woman who has seen life from both sides because I lived part of my life as a minority. I could walk alone and be treated white, then be with my husband and children and be one of the 'others'. There was a big difference and I see that difference in the way that our president is being treated by the very people who are suppose to be members of his party. I don't see members of congress attacked the way he is being attacked although they have more to do with this situation than he does. Oh well, you see things your way and I will see them my way and never shall the twain meet.

[Kalun D]

9. Two Choices

I see two possibilities of what is really happening.

Obama wants what we want but his hands are so tied he can't do anything.

Obama doesn't want what we want and is being dishonest with us.

It really sucks though that the first black pres has to work within a system that is so bought out and corrupt

Dean is a straight shooter, you can tell because he dared to say the media needed to be re-regulated, that's the day the corp media shot down his first run at the presidency. When he comes out and says a bill should be killed it's a good idea to see why he says that.

People say something is better than nothing but in the real world that's not always true, something can be worse than nothing.

BTW, you typoed HCR, thought you meant Hillary Rodam Clinton when you said HRC.

[Riverman]

13. Get use to it. Obama is making his own bed with the elite, Wall Street,

the insurance CEO's, and the energy giants! He will reap what he is now sewing. He has sold-out the majority of people who helped get him elected.

[saltpoint]

18. I think a lot of the Teabaggers' ferocity in opposing this president is

likely race-influenced, at least in one degree or another, but I think another component is Obama's intelligence.

We haven't had this smart a guy in the White House for some time. The United States can be fiercely anti-intellectual. An intelligent man of color is suspect by those who are still living in another time.

Racists are a frightening demographic and when you add anti-intellectualism, it's an environment where Glenn Beck and Donald Wildmon can fester.

[Clio the Leo]

22. oh he's not suspect, he's THREATENING...

.... when you have folks alive now who are old enough to remember Amos and Andy .... to suddenly now have an African American who uses words they dont know the meaning of in the Oval Office.... I'm amazed we've come as far as we have.

But that's also why I'm not overly worried for the long term.


Or in other words....

[saltpoint]

25. He is keen with his smarts, too, which is a kind of associative

intelligence built onto the existing, already-impressive structure.

John Kennedy could have had a terrific conversation with Barack Obama on the life of the mind in a world of the wallet. So could Lincoln, and Madison.

Obama is exceptional in his intelligence. I think his detractors -- in the media especially -- have grievously underestimated the reach of his mind.

I think right now historians do sense that reach, and it is from their pens that Obama's legacy will be recorded.

[Clio the Leo]

31. Yes but the ONE bit of criticism I have of the man....

..... (and I'm going to whisper this so no one hears me, we cheerleaders have our reps to protect you know lol)

Is that I think he's overestimated the intelligence of the American people .... or at least presumed too much that we could rise above our ignorance.

Sadly, we react too easily to fear-mongering and inflammatory sound bites.

It's the same reason he (admittedly) does not do well in debates (or rather, debates are not where he excels.) He'd rather engage someone in a long, intellectual discussion rather than argue and see who can win a verbal sparring match.

One of my favorite interviews he's ever done has been with Fareed Zakaria .... two men with more than the average interest in international affairs having a deep intellectual discussion on how to improve the US' standing in the world.

But MOST of us thrive off of Keith's Special Comments .... and I usually enjoy them too ..... but I'd still rather have Fareed running the country than Keith, if you get my meaning.

[saltpoint]

34. We'd be better off with either Fareed or Keith than we are with

those two fool Senators from Oklahoma and the junior Senator from Connecticut, etc.

We're still early in the trajectory of Obama's presidency. I think he still has some serious cards to play at the big table.

[Clio the Leo]

44. Oh and think about what FUN we'd have...

... with BOTH Keith and Rush in the Senate together! lol

[saltpoint]

45. I'm smiling up a storm here.

My fantasy for Limbaugh involves a different venue, though.

It's someplace with no media, no far-Right advertisers, no OxyContin, and vigilante socialist gangs roaming the streets

[Clio the Leo]

47. ha ha, sounds like heaven! NT

[firedupdem]

20. Thanks Angee....I visit all the time.

There isn't much constructive conversation here.

[Clio the Leo]

23. ehh....

.... hang in there kid. dont let them douse your "fire" ;)

[angee_is_mad]

26. DU gets antsy when you mention the "R" word

considering that Progressives are postracial and shit, lol.

I wonder how many un recommeends I will get? Now that is an interesting question.

[Clio the Leo]

40. I was about to say the same thing.....

...... no matter how many black folks we have living in the White House and how we may have worked together to get them there .... it cant change the fact that we all grew up in a screwed up society and that society has permanently tinged our ways of looking at the world and how we live with one another.

I'd suggest studying Jane Elliot's research on the matter to anyone who has not already.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

61. Someone suggested only the elites like Obama. Who knew 70% of Hispanics were elite?

w00t. Go us.

[boppers]

109. Being "postracial" doesn't mean denial of any society filled with racism.

Nor does it mean denial of rich cultural heritages.

It does, however, tend to avoid reducing things to simplistic stereotypes...

...Stereotypes like "Progressives are postracial and shit".

[PopSixSquish]

30. I'll Have to Visit That Site Thanks

and I cannot for the life of me see how killing this bill right now will lead to a better one later...

[Ildem09]

35. Your post is very narrowsighted

A) his decline in popularity among Democrats/Independents has nothing to do with Race, it's his seeming indifference and erudite behavior in regards to policy, when you terse out the opinion polls you find that only a very small segment cited race in anyway as a deciding factor on their opinion of Obama

B) The only time to get this done is NOW.. We are going to loose seats in the next election regardless, there have been only 2 occurrences when the incumbent party has increased their share in the chambers in off year elections once under FDR during the great depression and in 2002 under Bush after 9/11, the odds of Congressional Democrats increasing their majority are nill.

C) legislative politics give the President scant time to get a legislative agenda passed, especially in a hyper-partisan environment after this January maybe Feb at the latest then its re-election mode

D) Indiana, and to a lesser extent NC and VA were flukes. Indiana only voted for FDR and LBJ. Now Demographic trends are changing in VA and to a lesser extent in NC and they may be more in play in a few elections but if you look at the CPI they are still largely R+4 or more

E) I'm sure most people wouldn't have trouble with Sherlie Chisom (Sp?) or Jessie Jackson Jr. as president, the previous African Americans who ran for President.

[boppers]

105. What?

"it's his seeming indifference and erudite behavior in regards to policy, when you terse out the opinion polls you find that only a very small segment cited race in anyway as a deciding factor on their opinion of Obama"

Are you using new meanings for "erudite" and "terse" that I am unaware of?

I won't even bother pointing out the spelling and grammar.

[jberryhill]

36. Don't Confuse Loss Of Support For This Bill, With Rejection Of Obama

Willie Mays didn't hit a homer at every at-bat, and Muhammad Ali didn't win every fight.

This issue has gone very poorly.

[Clio the Leo]

46. lol, well if you are fervently against this bill...

.... but are still fervently in support of the President, you're in the minority around here. (but hey, I'll take the support where I can get it)

*I* think the two have to be mutually exclusive, but what do I know...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x64791

[Ildem09]

48. I agree that in the current electoral system

We have to always settle with the evil of two lessers. but regardless without electoral reform no real change is ever going to happen. we need total and complete electoral and campaign finance reform now

[jberryhill]

62. Are you married?

Do you love your spouse?

Do you always agree with your spouse?

Do you ever fervently disagree?

[Ildem09]

66. haha

I've not found the right guy yet! someday tho *oooh wait illinois is still backasswards and I can't get married here. woo for Iowa tho brave little guys.

[jberryhill]

113. Oops, my bad...

Replace "married" with "in a committed relationship".

"I've not found the right guy yet!"

Hang in there. I always liked the line at the end of It's a Wonderful Life where one of the donors says, "I've been saving up this money to get a divorce... if I ever find me a husband!"

[Clio the Leo]

126. This is the equivalent of trying to sabotage...

.... my husband's job (IMO.)

[jberryhill]

128. Mmmm.... well....

Suppose you began to suspect that during the time that your husband has been "at the office", you haven't been able to reach him on the phone, and you've heard that he's been spotted around town taking long lunches with women of ill repute.

You might have a few words with him, no?

[angee_is_mad]

49. When you have posts like this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x65503

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x65265

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x64966

It's hard to find the support for our President.

[Ildem09]

50. Progressives are upset

and as per my earlier post we don't have a lot of time... Progressives have been let down time and time again since the 1990's we are just upset and frustrated. we are at the breaking point, we want nay we demand that Obama be better than he is. that he do more.. he can and must rise to this occasion history is calling... and right now he is not meeting the challenge at least in our eyes. come 2012 it will play out let the dice roll where they will.

[angee_is_mad]

51. All Progressives?

because I beg to differ with you on that point, but I respect your right to voice it.

[Ildem09]

53. if the poll numbers are right

and stay the same its enough to cause concern and thats really all that matters

[angee_is_mad]

54. Well we know some segments of the population

tend to be under-polled and under counted and that includes Progressives.

[Ildem09]

56. True

But you account for that in statistics you can also separate out how strong correlations are and if there is any variables that are accounting for more than one thing. the general rule of thumb is that if its a sample size 1000+ and has a margin of error of <5% then it can be taken as gospel.

[treestar]

120. I feel for any doctor, lawyer, teacher or other professional who has

to deal with these progressives. They want what they want NOW. No amount of reality matters.

[jberryhill]

127. The first two of those don't strike me as "Obama hating"

The first one you linked speculates that Dean may be a viable primary challenger to Obama in 2012, and may be laying that groundwork now. That is not anti-Obama. Competition of ideas and candidates is how the system works. I mean, my goodness, would you question a fan of Muhammad Ali who was looking forward to a match between Ali and George Foreman? Having opponents is the POINT of being the champ!

The second one you linked notes that Obama supported Lieberman over the Democratic candidate Lamont, and that Lieberman has turned out to be a real pain in the ass. Supporting Lieberman was a mistake, and I agree with that.

I can't read the third one, since it was posted by "Ignored".

[freddie mertz]

115. And even if some of us decide to support a primary opponent, it is not a personal..

Hatred or rejection of the man that will be the motive.

It will be on matters of public policy.

I still like Obama in many ways, and still despise his "opposition", but he has alienated me very deeply on this issue.

The game isn't over yet, maybe he will in fact come through.

I'm not optimistic though, after his last public comments.

[FrenchieCat]

58. Thank You angee_is_mad!

I don't even have to tell you how I feel about this shit!

The Magic Negro ain't got the magic that they voted for,
and so they don't have any use for him anymore!

I'm reading the Afrosphere these days, cause it makes more damn sense,
is more intellectual and informative than most of the raggedy shit posted here!

And for good measure, lookit what Da Media Man is doing to make sure everyone gets nice and
skared.....

White Americans' majority to end by mid-century :scared:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_go_ot/us_white_minority

Those who are even thinking about putting up someone up against Barack in 2012,
Should just go ahead.....but I know for a fact, that millions of folks are gonna be staying home.

They can say Hi to Pres. Palin,
cause they will have earned her stupid crazy ass!
Just like like they earned Bush!
Black folks can weather anything! Hell, that's all we've ever done!

[Ildem09]

59. We aren't that hard to please

Progressive's just don't want to be taken for granted a little gumption, a little fight a little effort on the Presidents effort, instead of the same old empty rhetoric and teleprompter responses, where is the passion? the drive? the desire? the compassion? IF we progressives decide to sit out 2012 and Palin ends up as President then you all will know not to mess with us again, I've yet to decide to take it that far however it could be reality. The simple platitudes that the White House should and can make pale in comparison to the damage that a pissed of base can do. the cost benefit is soo bloody clear, That its infuriating that they don't even attempt to dance with the folks that brought them to prom

[FrenchieCat]

60. Y'all "Progressives" can be infuriated and everything else.

I this point, I don't really give a shit,
just like those who don't give a shit about
those that would be helped with this bill;
a bill that could be improved on through Budget Reconciliation....
but fuck it.....just kill the bill, kill the party, kill millions of Americans,
Kill it all! This sorry country doesn't deserve shit, and that is exactly
what you'll end up with soon enough. It will be an intellectual's nightmare,
but hey.....that's how many like it...obviously.

[Ildem09]

64. I worked on Grass roots this summer

I was a member of a group working for a Strong PO and giving cover to dems who voted for it GO BARON HILL IN-9!. However seeing all the hard work I did and people like me did to create an environment for a bill like HR 3200 to exist. Again ill say again time is a serious constraint if we used reconilication it would have to go back to committee and NO democrat is going to want to touch this after Feb. I never said outright Kill the Bill. I've certainly expressed my anger. it's the ultimate catch-22. if we support the bill its basically the largest transfer of wealth from the middle/poor classes to the upper class in history. however it does allow people to throw themselves at the foots of the insurance agencies. I mean lifetime caps are gone, pre-existing conditions will still exist, insurance companies can still discriminate and charge different rates for old people. I'm a policy wonk and I cant even figure out if I'll be able to get my partners benefits if a policy doesn't recognize same-sex couples. However conversely it will help a few people. is it enough to take a bit out of this shit sandwhich? I dont think so. Is it my duty to stop wanting the President to be more and do more and strive to be better, no. When he does great I will be the first to congratulate him. however I will not stop criticizing what i think is wrong

[angee_is_mad]

140. If Progressives try to take out Obama

they CAN NOT take the black vote for granted anymore.

[angee_is_mad]

139. hi Frenchie

I can't believe that people on here are saying that Pbama should be primaried. Then they have the nerve to say it isn't personal.

Bullshit!!!!

If Progressives (?) get behind a primary candidate they can kiss the Black vote goodbye for at least TWO generations!

They are so fucking delusional that they can't see that other (black) progressives DON"T think like they do and will not follow them to the road to damnation.

Take down Obama and any senator from a state with a substantial minority presences is GONE also.

[Fearless]

63. If you honestly think this has anything to do with race you're very mistaken.

[Ildem09]

65. thank you!

I was going to go into a conversation about heteroskediscity and homoskediscity and multicollinearity, but I dont think alot of people here have statistical training lol plus i dont want to booore people :)

[suzie]

67. And if you think it doesn't, you're sadly mistaken.

[Ildem09]

68. statistically speaking

race as an issue is around 14% of the voting public or about 5% of the total population i.e. the Tea Bag crowd. Do more people have issue with his race, sure.. but they don't vote or don't vote in large enough numbers to matter

[suzie]

86. Statistically speaking, the well-educated white liberals that post on DU

would never state that race was an issue for them. They'd simply much rather have another white male liberal/leftist/progressive than a person of color, as they make quite plain every day on DU.

But they'd never state that to any pollster.

[Ildem09]

87. I'm a Political Scientist

I don't concern myself with peoples internal motivations only the outcomes which can be observed and measured :)

[Fearless]

111. Not even close. America didn't vote for a black man

America voted for change, and as that change is not occurring, America is not happy.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. Why has the decline in support come almost excluslvely from white Dems?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124484/Obama-Approval-Slide-Finds-Whites-Down-39.aspx

[Ildem09]

71. because

mainly 3 reasons

1) they represent a larger total proportion of the total party

2) they tend to be either poor and uneducated i.e. Conservadems from backwater areas

3) or they are educated upper class liberals who are pissed at the policy direction

[SemiCharmedQuark]

72. Their proportion doesn't have anything to do with it as each group is judged individually.

Approval ratings among black americans and hispanic Dems has not shifted much. It's among white Dems that the shift has occurred. And what pisses me off most is that people then have the gall to say that only the "elite" approve of Obama. Since when are AAs and Hispanics the "elite"?

[Ildem09]

75. in regards to proportionality

I am talking about the voting populous. which would cause gallups poll to tend to be skewed that way. they could however correct for that but they haven't shown the their methodology so i cannot comment on that. i would suspect there is some multicollinearity going on with some of the variables though. but like i said i can't terse it out cause I dont have their raw data

[Ildem09]

73. also,

Looking at that poll it shows some very troubling trends.. if he is having that large of a drop in the East -19.. our hard base.. among educated voters -19 there was the largest drop and the youth-13... all very scary things. Overall drop among dems was only -6. what the poll highlights is that obama is loosing conservatives and independents and his base is shaky

[SemiCharmedQuark]

74. Those figures (the East, etc.) include Democrats and Republicans

Not just his "base" Democrats.

[Ildem09]

76. well yes

but you can make factual inferences from the data. for example Democrats would tend to be oversampled in the East as that's where our strongest electoral returns and party registration is. We would tend to be undersampled in the South, due to minorities generally being undersampled. the age issue again you can make inferences based on the current gallop poll in regards to exit polling data from Nov 4 etc etc

[Ildem09]

77. reading their methedology at the bottom

the MOE is good and the confidence interval is strong so the poll is accurate. If anything that poll shows that Generally Progressives are still willing to give him a chance. however, he is loosing moderates (independents) fast. which is somewhat troubling. I wouldn't even pay attention to the conservative numbers

[SemiCharmedQuark]

78. I agree with you. That said, this polling also indicates that DU is not necessarily the large

proportion of the base it believes itself to be as it has been declaring Obama a failure since August. I would argue that of the three groups you listed, DU would probably tend to be made up of white upper class liberals.

[Ildem09]

79. Forums/Blogs like this

tend to attract very polarized people. I myself am super wicked pissed off at the administration . but I would hazard that DU represents 3-5% of the party. which is about half the activist base which says something if you need to get people on the front lines.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

80. I'm angry with some things, happy with some things, confused on others.

I think "half the activist base" is a bit much. Working the campaign last year, I found that a lot of people there were just regular people who did not frequent blogs or spend their days on forums.

[Ildem09]

82. what i wanted to say

was that in any given election only about 7-10% get involved actively. i would estimate that between 3-5% out of that 7-10% are like US DU'ers sorry i should have said a little better!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

84. Ahh, I get ya. Sorry for the confusion.

:D

Thank you, BTW, for a respectful and calm conversation.

[suzie]

83. I'd totally disagree with you about getting people on the front lines from the

half of the activist base that posts on DU.

I've watched the "activists" in person who sound exactly like the ones on DU. They whine and pontificate and whine some more. But they're never around when the real front line stuff has to be done. Or they'll show up once in awhile and pontificate while everyone else is working.

[Ildem09]

85. welll

I was talking about the total population voting that is of course.. out of that roughly 7-10 % are activists. thats a broad definition it includes letting candidates put signs in your yard. if you wanna get down to the really nitty gritty front line foot soliders it would be about 1-3% so in a way you are right. I should have defined the variable activist a little better mea culpa

[girl_interrupted]

88. "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president...

or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong,is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public" Theodore Roosevelt.

I use to hear that quote around DU many times. We elect politicans, and we also have a right to question their policies, and to hold them accountable. No politican should ever take their votes for granted, they should earn them. It's not a "racist" thing...it's a "political" thing.

[Ildem09]

89. THANK YOU!

i've been thinking of that quote lately! I was wondering when someone was going to start posting it

[SemiCharmedQuark]

90. I don't think anyone is arguing for no criticism.

I think people are arguing for turning the dial back down from 11. When Alex Jones and other conspiracy sites get quoted as reliable sources solely because they post conspiratorial stuff against Obama, then I think it is fair to say something is not right.

[girl_interrupted]

94. Nor should they

I think people are expressing their displeasure, and as voters we have every right to.

I haven't seen Alex Jones and/or conspiracy sites used here as "reliable" scources. I have seen discontent coming from posters with justifiable concerns. And I have seen them called "haters". For what? Because they dare to criticize? That's wrong.

I also think it is very wrong to say , it's because "Obama is black", that's reverse racism.

Black or White we are all in this together. If Obama fails, the country fails with him. And I think that can be prevented by saying..please rethink your policy choices.


I don't think thats "racist" , I think thats democratic.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

95. "Reverse racism?" Please.

:eyes:


The OP didn't say people opposing Obama are racist. The OP is pointing out that AAs have an 80% approval rating for Obama. That isn't racism NOR is it reverse racism. That's a straight up fact.


And yes. People absolutely HAVE posted conspiratorial stuff. Scroll through locked threads. They've also called Obama a "tin pot dictator" and called Obama supporters Nazi sympathizers. That isn't constructive or helpful any more than "haters" is.

[girl_interrupted]

97. Sorry but

the OP said he was having a "hard time" because he is black.

He's having a hard time, not because he is black, but because of a policy decision.

When you start playing the race card...it is what it is.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

98. The OP said that if you supported Obama, you would find like minded people in the afrosphere.

Why? Because AAs support Obama overwhelmingly.

And as far as his race goes, there is no question that people, not necessarily on DU, have let the fact that he's black shade their judgment of him. See: The Teabaggers.

[girl_interrupted]

102. Let me give you an example

I'm not happy with health care reform is going, and I'm not the only one. Tonite Keith Olbermann gave a scathing special commentary about it. And I happen to agree with him, I sat with a group of friends and watched...we are of all different races and yet we all agreed. We are all disappointed. To say all AA's support him overwhelming, may be true of a poll, but I dont see that in real time.

Tonite we discussed what Keith had said. And there was something else bothering a lot of us too. And that was a promise Obama made and broke regarding prescription drugs

I think the Washington Post is a reliable source:

"President Obama writes a new health reform prescription"

"On the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to take on the drug industry by allowing Americans to import cheaper prescription medicine. "We'll tell the pharmaceutical companies 'thanks, but no, thanks' for the overpriced drugs -- drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada," he said back then."

On Tuesday, the matter came to the Senate floor -- and President Obama forgot the "no, thanks" part. Siding with the pharmaceutical lobby, the administration successfully fought against the very idea Obama had championed.

"It's got to be a little awkward," said Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.).

It's even more awkward for millions of Americans who are forced to pay up to 10 times the prices Canadians and Europeans pay for identical medication, often produced in the same facilities by the same manufacturers, simply because the U.S. government refuses to rein in drug prices. " http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121504196.html

About this we werent just disappointed but angry. And we have every right to be. This was a campaign promise.


Are there bigots out there? Of course. They will dislike him no matter what. It's a different story when you dislike his policies, for what they are.

I'm a democrat, and no one, black or white is going to tell me there can't be a primary if I don't like what a candidate is doing, no matter their race.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

103. What you posted is completley different from some posts where race is clearly a factor

I work and live in Chicago and I certainly spend a lot more time with Latinos (as I am one) than most people on DU. That 70% approval rating rings true. Comparison of the Afrosphere and white progressive sites such as DU also tells a story.

As far as racism, well, see the post from HuffPo below. No, certainly not all criticism is racist. Not Keiths and not the HCR debacle. But some is.

[girl_interrupted]

106. Yes it is different

I live in New York, and trust me, I spend a lot of time with people of all races and nationalities. Same as you, no difference there...but what I do see is people of all races getting a bit bent out of shape about Obama and his role with banks, Afghanistan, and health care. Maybe it's not that way in Chicago, but it sure as hell is here. The City is the mist of a financial crisis, & what they are worried about is not supporting a candidate, but how they are going to support themselves and their families. They are looking for help from the very same man they voted for.


I will never deny racism exist and that "writer" seems like a complete jerk to me. Progressive or not.

But will Obama's chances of re-election depend on what a twit like that writes? No. It will depend on Obama himself and whether or not he has had a positive impact on the lives of voters.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

107. Then we are in agreement.

Again, I thank you for a cordial and enlightening discussion. :)

[girl_interrupted]

108. Yes we are!

I enjoyed it very much too! Thanks!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. Here's a nice racist piece from a "progressive" on HuffPo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-solod-warren/two-black-role-models-don_b_394421.html

[Undercurrent]

110. BLAT!

Not only is that article racist, it's such a juvenile piece of clap trap it doesn't even rise to the level of pop psychology.

[freddie mertz]

116. I have to agree with you on this one. Its a glib, blindly racist POS piece.

Comparing Obama to Tiger Woods can ONLY be based on race... they have absolutely nothing else in common unless you push the close ties to certain corporations.

Obama is, by all accounts and all evidence, a decent, caring family men and a gifted and dedicated public servant.

Woods is a just a horny, self-centered jerk.

Huffpo should take that down.

[treestar]

124. When Clinton didn't get a health plan through

Had he "failed the country" blah, blah, blah - people are demanding obama be a demigod. Then if we defend him we are the ones accused of "worship." Gimme a break. I'm sick of the terminally disappointed and their daily search for something to whine about. We've been living with our current health system to today, and they are against any improvement because it doesn't fit their fantasies.

[girl_interrupted]

91. YW!

[Fearless]

112. Because of the large number who switched parties during the last election.

[democracy1st]

69. Only a fool would play the race card !

[Undercurrent]

92. Oh pleeeze.

Don't bother with the "your playing the race card" routine.

There was absolutely no attempt by the OP to use race as a wedge issue, to gain some perceived advantage, or use race as an excuse. Nor were they accusing anyone of racism.

The OP was simply stating the facts on the ground that because black folks have been under the boot from the inception of this country they tend to be patient, tough, and resilient. (There are other groups who have always gotten the shity end of the stick as well. Like Native Americans.)

[SemiCharmedQuark]

96. Apparently any mention of race, even a factual one, is "playing the race card".

AAs overwhelmingly approve of Obama. So do Latinos. But you can't say that, or it's racism.

[angee_is_mad]

141. Thank you!

It's good to know there are some people on here who gets it.

[timeforpeace]

142. "no attempt by the OP to use race as a wedge issue" Bullshit. Using race period is racism.

[Undercurrent]

144. Really?

Gee, maybe you should alert the dictionary writers that they have it all wrong.

racism

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

[uponit7771]

129. Only a racist would act like the quintessential higher standards Obama is being held to is benign

[mr_show_time]

81. Does this apply to Michael Steele, too?

Just curious.

[SeattleGirl]

93. Sad that this has so many unrec's

Sad, and sickening.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lilith Velkor]

137. This thread is proof positive that Obama has fucked up big time

Hell, I was expecting it after the escalation speech.

Just wait 'til they try to privatize Social Security. That's when the accusations will really take off.

[SeattleGirl]

147. Where in the HELL did I imply that?

Your agenda is blinding you.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HopeOverFear]

99. Everywhere in the afrosphere except black agenda report

and (maybe) the field negro. Those two hate Obama as much as redstate, free republic and du does.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

100. I like Field. I don't think he hates Obama. Black Agenda Report is a joke. He claims Obama is

racist against black people.

[firedupdem]

122. Funny how that black agenda report garbage gets posted here

as if it's based in reality.

[HopeOverFear]

150. Field Negro claims the same thing, actually.

[treestar]

119. To me it is amazing how racism goes straight to the top

Reminds me of that bumpersticker saying that women have to be twice as good as a man to get half the credit. Black POTUS has to be perfect or he gets ripped as a failure. Amazing. I know the M$M is biased for repukes, but I don't recall Clinton getting this much scrutiny. Maybe it was the days before the internet, but :wtf: Every day it is another drama on the internet.

[avaistheone1]

123. Obama is not God.

He can and should be challenged. He is not representing blacks, whites, browns, yellows or anyone inbetween.
Obama is the defender of the corporations, not of the people.

Deal with it.

[ShortnFiery]

130. Exactly, the moneyed elite in this country are using this as their last refuge because

they KNOW that President Obama is more than willing to do their bidding.

It. Won't. Work. President Obama is a human being who is siding with GREED.

[JohnnyLib2]

131. and of course must deal with political realities.

Agree or disagree with the OP, the perspective given is part of the mix.

No crystal ball here. We are on a wild ride in the cyber age of politics, eh?

[ShortnFiery]

136. Political realities remain the same - these assholes serve corporations and should be kicked out

of office. Vote them OUT!

[kjackson227]

135. Thanks, Angee for the post. I find it astonishing when some in our party...

"CHOOSES" to forget or downright lies about his stance on certain issues that he spoke about while campaigning. Am I happy about the so-called HCR bill now? ABSOLUTELY NOT! But I'm beginning to see that we have SOME in our very own party (political representatives and everyday Democratic voters)who might be trying to SABOTAGE this president and his legislative strategies for whatever reasons. One reason is pretty transparent- our government reps are bought and paid for by lobbyists- other reasons could be envy/jealousy, AND another reason may just be that we still have a few Dixicrats in the fold that want to see this man fail. Did Obama do himself any good by bringing in Geithner, and Summers? Absolutely not, and I also think Rahm Emmanuel was a big mistake also. But, with that said, what's done is done. Being a left-of-center liberal I have to remember that President Obama is a moderate/centrist, but I knew this when I voted for him. Although I'm not happy at all about the so-called HCR bill, I feel my president is up against the ropes right now (BIG MONEY, and traitors in his own party) so I'm hoping like hell that he has the stamina/courage/power to throw a knock-out punch and continue to do the right thing for the people of this country. Frankly, I just don't know what to think right now. A part of me still believes that this man, our President, loves this country and its citizens with all his heart, but then I see the people that he's placed in positions around him who I think care about only two things... power and money- so I wonder what President Obama was thinking when he chose them for his administration. Then again, this man has a brilliant mind so I think that whatever his reasonings are behind the decisions he's made/makes they're for the good of the American people. Would I vote for him again? ABSOLUTELY. I am smart enough to realize that out of all the politicians today, Obama is STILL the politician with the most integrity.

[mdmc]

138. I'm still an Obama supporter

but the change I believed in was that Obama would be better then McCain..
I am still on solid ground..

[Cha]

145. Yeah, I'd say..

Night and Day.