Bernie Sanders on Dean: "I have to deal with the reality, being a Congress member..."

[jefferson_dem]

Regarding Howard Dean:

"A lot of his criticism constructive, he made good points. But I have to deal with the reality, being a Congress member, what it means politically to this country: When will the opportunity come up again for 30 million people, preexisting conditions, etc? It's not a good bill, but we'll try to make it as good as we possibly can."

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/12/sen-bernie-sanders-on-countdown-we-look.html

[BeyondGeography]

1. This must be so upsetting to the beautiful minds of the Kill Crowd

Meantime, Sen. Sanders deals with the ugly reality that is life. Thank goodness for him.

[jefferson_dem]

2. McLame hearts Howard. Bernie...not so much.

But wait... Pasty-faced Cornyn also wants to jump into line at the "Howard Dean Kissing Booth." http://twitter.com/JohnCornyn/statuses/6761603084

[BeyondGeography]

3. That's some seriously ugly company the good Doctor has opened himself up to

He won't feel good when he wakes up in the morning.

[Zodiak]

71. The guilt by association game is not appreciated

Nor it is helpful.

Nor is it appropriate.

And it is logically fallacious.

If you wish for Obama to have more support, this kind of thing is undermining your purpose. It only engenders more anger among his supporters.

[Forkboy]

5. How did you feel when Palin supported Obama on Afghanistan and people here used it against Obama?

Is that kind of guilt by association bad and yours good?

[Zodiak]

72. I personally saw it as a cheap tactic

As this one is.

The whole "the left are joining forces with the teabaggers" thing is just as cheap, and actually more damaging.

I have never seen a party nor its supporters so willing to jettison a big chunk of their grassroots support away with such infantile, bullying behavior. I would swear they are taking a dive for 2010 and beyond.

[madfloridian]

7. I am starting to enjoy the attacks on us here. It is helpful to me.

It is helping me see the true colors of what our party has actually become.

It is really getting funny.

It is amusing...and to me it is helpful.

[jefferson_dem]

8. Agreed.

n/t

[Capn Sunshine]

17. don't forget 90% of it is sock puppets and provocateurs

trying to wreak havoc for dough.
DU, you've been punked. Again.

[niceypoo]

54. Senator Bernie Sanders Says He Won't Vote For Current Senate Health Care Bill

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said late Wednesday that he cannot support the Democrats' healthcare reform legislation in its current form.

Asked by Fox Business Network's Neil Cavuto asked Sanders if he could support the compromise bill. The senator replied "I’m struggling with this. As of this point I am not voting for the bill. And here’s why."

Sanders, who favors a single-payer healthcare system, said that he has informed the White House and Democratic leadership of his position.

"As of this moment. I am going to do my best to make this bill a better bill, a bill that I can vote for but I’ve indicated both to the White House and the Democratic leadership that my vote is not secure at this point," he said.

Sanders words come as Democratic leaders are now facing heat from the left over several compromises made in order to attract centrist votes. Read on...

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/senator-bernie-sander-says-he-wont-vo

[booley]

63. Of course Sanders also said

That he wasn't sure if he would vote for the bill or not, he wanted to try to change it to something tolerable again. He left open the option to withdraw his support if he couldn't do that.

So Sanders and Dean are not that far from each other

[Avalux]

4. Pragmatism can be very ugly, but sometimes a good progressive understands that.

I certainly have. We need to pass this or it will NEVER happen. Work can be done aftewards.

[closeupready]

21. Agree, but Dems are not going to enjoy much in the way of applause.

n/t

[Clio the Leo]

6. that was nice wasn't it? NT

[Bluenorthwest]

9. "It;'s not a good bill." He says

but it is the best we are capable of as a nation. That's it. Get behind a bad bill. Very sad stuff.

[madfloridian]

10. It's not a good bill, it has a mandate with no cost controls...

but I will vote for it anyway?

[levander]

11. When will the opportunity come up again? What?

Obama's still gonna be president. Polls show we'll lose in '10, but not lose so bad we'll lose control in either house. The opportunity comes up any time the Democrats want it for at least the next three years.

But yes, after '10 the bill will have to be more bipartisan. E.g., we'll need like 5 Republicans in the Senate. A great health reform bill with bipartisan support is the Healthy Americans Act.

This bill has already been gutted. What do you think you're getting now that you couldn't get in '10 that makes pushing this bill through so dire?

The public option will have less chance getting through. But, the public option didn't make it through, even with 60 Democrats in the Senate!

[varelse]

27. Do the Democrats really control either house now?

We don't have "like 5 Republicans in the Senate" now... where the hell would their bipartisan spirit emerge from after the Dems lose ground in both houses in 2010?

[levander]

39. There is a bipartisan bill

Guys, check the Healthy Americans Act. There is a bipartisan bill that provides universal coverage, and we don't have to wait till 2014 for benefits to kick in.

The uninsured would actually get insurance faster if they just let this stupid bill go and start on a better bill.

Basic intro reading on Healthy Americans Act here: http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/Legislation/Healthy%20Americans%20Act/haa_faq.cfm">Click

[varelse]

51. Many employers don't provide medical insurance benefits now

and what about unemployed, disabled, and poor families with children? How would they pay for insurance?

[madfloridian]

34. So you are saying we did not need the majority after all.

Right?

[levander]

40. There is a bipartisan bill

Check the Healthy Americans Act. There is a bipartisan bill that provides universal coverage, and we don't have to wait till 2014 for benefits to kick in.

The uninsured would actually get insurance faster if they just let this stupid bill go and start on a better bill.

Basic intro reading on Healthy Americans Act here: http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/Legislation/Healthy%20Americans%20Act/haa_faq.cfm">Click

[Laelth]

12. Looks like Sanders got a call from Rahm.

Yesterday, iirc, Sanders said he wouldn't vote for the bill in its present form.

Obama is really twisting arms to get this done. Sadly, infuriatingly, it seems like he's only interested in twisting the arms of people to his left.

:dem:

-Laelth

[madfloridian]

15. Exactly right. Tonight Bernie said he would vote the bad bill.

[Armstead]

49. He said he "didn't know" yet

That part of his interview gets glossed over.

[DCBob]

13. Dean has never been a member of congress. and is naive...

to the issues that face Senators and members of the House.

[madfloridian]

14. Oh yeh. Issues like falling off a cliff together by voting for a bad bill.

That is just what Bernie Sanders said he would do.

If the bill is bad, then withhold your support...unless you are being threatened by the party leadership.

And that is probably what is happening.

[ProSense]

16. Dean said the same thing about the opt-out plan, that he would vote for it.

That's the problem: There is a ton really good things in the bill, but people keep picking at two or three specific things and distorting them beyond recognition. Then when they go down to defeat, everyone is surprised.

[madfloridian]

29. Dean has talked about the good things in the bill.

I disagreed with him in a thread about the opt out option.

I think he really thinks it would work though.

This fear of being critical of the WH is getting out of hand.

[DCBob]

20. No. Like voting for bill that is the first step in a long process..

of improving heathcare in America.

[stevenleser]

26. Bernie Sanders isn't subject to "The Party Leadership" as he isn't "In the party"

We all did know that, right?

[madfloridian]

30. Oh, no, steven, we are all dumb as rocks here.

Of course he is going to hear from the leadership.

We should be glad he caucuses with our party.

Geez what is with the talking down to us idiots stuff here?

I am sick of it.

[stevenleser]

44. Then your post suggests that Sanders is more afraid of Democratic Party pressure than Lieberman is.

You are suggesting Sanders is caving to it and Lieberman is not. Personally, I don't think someone who runs for Senate in THIS country as a Socialist is afraid of very much. What could they do to him, really. He is chair of one subcommittee, Green jobs and the New Economy. The threat of taking that away is much weaker than the threat of taking away a full committee chair that Lieberman has.

It is even more weak considering that Sanders doesnt care if corporations give him money based on his subcommittee chairmanship whereas Lieberman doesnt even pretend not to be in bed with the corporations who lavish attention and money on him partly due to his chairmanship and would be crushed if it were taken away.

So, again, you were accusing Sanders of caving to Democratic Party leadership pressure. The reason you were doing it is you want to attack his lukewarm support for the bill. Your line of attack on him doesn't make sense. He is not a Democrat, isnt beholden to the party for much of anything and they need him much more than he needs them, particularly with Lieberman being a jerk. So you want to try that whole thing again?

[madfloridian]

70. Lieberman has had no pressure from our party. False premise.

I did not attack Bernie, I supported him. He is wrong to cave, but I did support him.

Lieberman's chairmanship will never be taken away. Obama recently praised him for all his efforts.

[undeterred]

19. He's not naive.

He's just in a better position to call the bill for what it is. The people who have to make the compromises are the ones who vote on the bill.

[DCBob]

22. Not "better"... but easier.. Dean does not have to deal with constituents or..

getting reelected or working with other members of congress. Yes he is naive.

[undeterred]

23. He's a doctor and he knows this issue better than Obama

and most of the Senators.

[DCBob]

24. Dr Dean is good man and is very intelligent and I dearly love the guy,,

I was a Deaniac and he could have won back then had it not been for Iowa.. But I think he is wrong on this issue.

[madfloridian]

31. Dean is correct to point out the dangers in this bill.

To say otherwise is to be dishonest.

Most people don't have a clue that the mandate will be enforced without cost controls and by the IRS

Saying Dean is a good man and then going along with the bashing is two-faced.

He and Bernie often had problems in VT because Dean was more centrist. I imagine good old Bernie had fun with that dig.

[DCBob]

32. I am not "bashing" Dean.. I just think he is wrong..

He perspective is different not being a member of congress or not being the POTUS.

[madfloridian]

33. He has been on top of this more than most in Congress.

His perspective has more clarity, and is not influenced by party whips and WH CoS.

[DCBob]

35. Perhaps, but it is not realistic... politically..

He can be right but also dead wrong at the same time. That's politics.

[Mopar151]

36. The word on Howard from his homefolks

He's more suited to monarchy than democracy.

[closeupready]

18. I fully agree with Sanders and Bill Clinton - it has good points.

But I am very angry.

[eridani]

46. Right. Let's be forcefed a poison ivy salad--

--just because it has a nice balsamic vinaigrette dressing.

[Cha]

25. I like that Bernie is

respectful.

[Blue-Jay]

28. Bernie is such a sell out

I can't wait to put a real liberal in his seat

[cry baby]

37. I'm getting dizzy on this roller coaster! Glad to hear about Bernie - I like him!

I'm glad he hasn't given up - glad he hasn't joined the turning away...yet. Of course, this isn't over so I guess we will all wait to see what happens on pins and needles. I'm anxious to see what will be in the reconciliation with house bill.

[Garam_Masala]

38. Dirty Dozen reasons to kill the bill

1. No Single Payer

2. No public option

3. No expanded Medicare coverage

4. No drug re-importation

5. No cost controls

6. No renegotiation of drug prices

7. Capped annual coverage for care

8. Forced mandated coverage with threat of fines/jail

9. Anti-trust exemption for insurance companies

10. Tax on middle class insurance plans

11. Taxes that start right away, benefits don’t start until 2014

12. No cost reduction by restricting unlimited awards for medical errors

[levander]

42. Yeah, time to let it go

I'm with you Garam. The bill has been gutted. Start over.

This time with a bill that makes sense. The Healthy Americans Act.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Garam_Masala]

53. Believe it or not I am now turning against Afghanistan war!

The house just approved $128 BILLION for wars in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Yes, i would like offense against Al Qaeda and Taliban however the realist
in me says WE CAN'T AFFORD IT!! All that money is way too much price to pay
now that deficits are running amok.

As for HCR I have stated my reasons why only Single Payer makes sense.
Everything else is too complex, too many unknowns, too much in favor of
the same private insurance who has been screwing us.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Smelling reality coffee does open one's eyes.

[eridani]

45. The opportunity to buy useless overpriced crap is not an opportunity

It is a piece of shit. Any good features can easily be pulled out and passed separately.

[CTLawGuy]

47. "reality" is a corporate conspiracy

Bernie Sanders is owned by teh corporations !!!!111!!1

:sarcasm:

[jefferson_dem]

50. Ha.

:spray:

[Armstead]

48. HE ALSO HAS NOT GUARANTEED HIS VOTE YET

When asked whether he would vote for the bill as it is he said "I don't know."

[WI_DEM]

52. I wonder if the perfectionists now consider Sanders a traitor?

[chill_wind]

56. Nope. This shit bill is not his fault. n/t

[chill_wind]

55. Of course he does. He has a vote. Dean doesn't.

So you have to seriously wonder why there's so much furious energy directed at the "irrelevant" Dr. Dean.
Methinks the Dean bashers are protesting much too loudly. Shouldn't all the Dems with a vote be out there trying to sell this historic "reform" as hard as they can?

Where are they?

[ClarkUSA]

57. How true. And it's amusing to see those who said Dean was a "sellout" when he supported HCR...

... now hail him unconditionally because he presently opposes it. It's all so cynical and narcissistic to use politicians as cover for
your own opinions. But there ya go. Now I see that some folks are trying to cast aspersions on Bernie Sanders.

Wonder what the same folks who laud/cheer Howard now will do when and if he goes back to supporting HCR again? I'll bet they'll
go back to calling him a "sellout".

[Milo_Bloom]

58. Yet, he didn't say he would vote for this bill.

[ClarkUSA]

59. He also said on Countdown, "We are working with the WH to make this bill better..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=69408&mesg_id=69408

[Milo_Bloom]

61. If it isn't made better, he will likely not vote for it.

[ClarkUSA]

62. I'm sure it will be made better (aka. good enough for Bernie) and he will vote for it.

Because that's what the WH and Bernie is striving for, behind the scenes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=71246&mesg_id=71246

[Milo_Bloom]

64. Time will tell... I don't expect Bernie to betray us the way the WH has.

[ClarkUSA]

65. Cognitive dissonance? Bernie Sanders is working with the WH. Both are working for HCR.

Spare me the "betray" bullshit. Bernie Sanders sure doesn't think so.

[Milo_Bloom]

66. Actually, Bernie pushed for Single payer, unlike the WH, which betrayed us.

[ClarkUSA]

67. Bernie Sanders doesn't agree with you and respects the WH enough to work with them closely.

And vice versa.

[Milo_Bloom]

68. No.

It is because he still thinks there is hope, while most of us know there is none.

We were sold out by Obama several months ago.

Gifts to the bankers and no real reform of the banking industry.

A credit card reform bill with no actual reform.

And now a health care bill without cost controls on either medical services OR medications. Wasn't it nice of the white house to strike a deal with big pharma to not allow importation of drugs from Canada to lower prices.

Soon, Bernie will realize there is no hope with this administration, just more sell out politics, like our last democratic president.

[ClarkUSA]

69. Yes. Bernie Sanders is an adult who understands legislating is more than whining and grandstanding.

Also, none of your rhetoric resembles the truth, according to unbiased sources. I won't bother to give you the facts,
because no doubt you'd ignore it and repeat more anti-Obama rhetoric back at me. Let's not and say we did.

[Milo_Bloom]

75. Of course you won't give facts.

Because there are none to give that support your hero-worship.

If the bill doesn't improve, as it likely won't, Sanders will vote no.

[HughMoran]

60. K&R for all the progressive Congressmen who are using their head

and not simply telling us what's in their hearts. Nobody thinks this is a particularly idea bill, but it's an awful lot better than the alternative.

[vaberella]

73. Bernie Sanders...~sigh~ another failure next to Kerry and Obama.

The list just keeps going. In the end, the only truth is Dean.

[ClarkUSA]

74. "In the end, the only truth is Dean." Only until he supports HCR again. Then he'll be a "sellout".

:crazy:

[vaberella]

76. Exactly. That man has been jumping back & forth.

That's why I stopped listening too much to what he was saying. He first supports bill---remmeber that Ensho drama and then we find out he has a vested interest to see that bill passed. (speaking of hte HOuse now). Then he drops it and says no, not worth the time. Then he jumps back on it when it makes it hrough the house. Now he's doing the same bs to the senate bill. I don't know where he stands and I'm not going to stand around assuming I do. I gave up on him on the first round of jumps.

[ClarkUSA]

77. Yeah, you were wise but those who are hailing his HCR opposition now are just hypocrites.

No surprise there.