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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:42 PM
Original message
"Five cost controls in the Senate health-care bill."
Five cost controls in the Senate health-care bill

One of the impulses you have to resist as a writer is the desire to say things that are new, as opposed to things that you've already learned. A lot of this post will be stale to longtime readers, but in my chat today, someone asked after the cost controls in the Senate. A bit later, I was on the radio and heard Darcy Burner say that this bill lacked any real cost controls.

Herewith, a partial list of the cost controls in the Senate bill:

<snip>

Under bundled payments, the hospital would receive one check for everything related to your stroke over a single period of time. That means they make more money from doing less, rather than more money from doing more. It also gives them an incentive to coordinate care when you're out of the hospital, as it's cheaper to get a nurse to call and make sure you're taking your medicine than it is to have you in for a follow-up procedure.

<snip>

Prudent purchasing means that insurers can't enter, or stay, in the exchanges unless regulators are satisfied that they're doing a good job. That works both to ensure a good product, but also to hold costs down. If an insurer wants to hike premiums, for instance, they have to submit a justification to the exchanges and post that justification publicly on their Web site. If the exchange isn't convinced, that insurer can be dropped from the exchange, losing all customers and profits they were making.

Do this to one or two insurers, one or two times, and the message will be pretty strong.

One reason there's so much packed into this iteration of health-care reform is because it's so hard to overcome the status quo outside of a massive reform effort. Common-sense delivery system reforms don't attract sufficient interest to muscle pass interest group opposition. The Medicare Commission streamlines the reform process, forcing a panel of independent experts to suggest a package of reforms in years when spending growth is too rapid and forcing Congress to vote on the package -- no amendments, and no filibuster.

The Medicare Commission enjoys a catalytic interaction with other elements of the bill, as it offers a process to take small programs and convert them into systemwide reforms. A pilot program that's working well, for instance, might be included in the next year's reform package, making it a policy that makes Medicare work better. This policy could be made a lot better if the Senate passes the Rockefeller-Lieberman-Whitehouse amendment.

The excise tax on high-value health insurance: This is, essentially, a tax on the unchecked growth in premiums. The key here is that the threshold at which premium dollars begin getting taxed at 40 percent doesn't rise as quickly as premiums costs generally rise. Now imagine two insurers: One holds costs down quite well, and one holds costs down quite poorly. Within a couple of years, the costlier insurer's plan is $3,000 over the threshold, while the cheaper insurer remains under it. The tax amplifies the difference between the two. The costlier insurer is suddenly $4,200 more than the cheaper insurer. In this way, plans with more successful cost-control mechanisms get an even larger market advantage. This makes the insurance market even more competitive in terms of price.

The individual mandate: In the last few days, an odd argument has arisen. The individual mandate, people say, must be sacrificed on the altar of cost control. The truth is quite the opposite. First, the individual mandate lowers average premium costs by bringing healthy people into the system. If the only people buying insurance are the people who expect to need to use it, the average cost will be prohibitively high. But second, the individual mandate is the political spur for future cost controls.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/five_cost_controls_in_the_sena.html
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bu-bu-t But the sky is falling
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yeah, that's what I thought.
But this thread is nice and quiet. Rationality does that. K&R
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you, that is good news.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R while this is still on the + side.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thank for some real practical factual information!
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. In some ways, instead of creating a PO, we are just paving the way to nationalizing insurance comps.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good information to have
But are these suppose to go into effect immediately or 2013, under the current bill in the Senate?
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. The change to bundled payment is HUGE
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 10:07 PM by SpartanDem
the fee for service model now in place on of the biggest contributors to cost. Thanks for injecting a serious policy discussion into the hysteria.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I wish everyone would read Ezra, regardless of what they think....
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 10:18 PM by Clio the Leo
... of Dean or Obama or anything else.

a lot of good sense in that young mind of his, I look forward to growing old and watching politics with him
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I completely disagree with him
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 10:56 PM by Zodiak
But yes, I read him. Frankly, he's been writing a string of hit-pieces on liberals as of late, and so I may disagree with the "sense" argument you raise. It is not politically smart to drive the nail in deeper on an already mad and betrayed supporter, in my opinion.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
96. He has gotten so much wrong in this area
it is hard to take him seriously anymore.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Counterpoints to what is shown
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 10:08 PM by Zodiak
For one, "regulators", as I read in the bill, primarily consists of a Secretary of Health and Human Services, and that is it. It is nice to have another non-political commission doing something as outlined in this article, but the Secretary of HHS has a lot more regulatory power here, especially over any appeals. This is a political position that can be subject to the whims of an executive....and one that is friendly to the industry will have very little regulatory incentive. What guarantees do we have that most of this bill is not subject to the whims of a single politically-appointed regulator?

Also, I see absolutely nothing in there about anything but premiums and payments to hospitals. What about copays? Deductibles? Limited visits? Denial for medical devices? Payment for only a percentage of service? none of that is mentioned, but all can be manipulated easily. Nothing in the bill says anything about these common methods for keeping insurance company costs down.

Thirdly, the bills on both sides of the aisle have the Republican proposal to sell insurance freely across state lines in it. for one, why would this be in there without Republican votes? And two, how are any of these "cost controls" going to counter the effect of moving all of the major health insurance companies to one state that has no effective regulation? Turning health insurance into the credit card industry is not what I call "price control".

Lastly...how is there any guarantee that people who still cannot afford insurance with their subsidy are going to get healthcare? Americans are strapped to the last dollar as-is. I see there is acknowledgement that 16 million will not be covered nonetheless. How does the argument that all of us being in the pool saves money reconcile with the fact the bill is leaving 16 million priced out of the market? seems to me that if price control was the goal, those 16 million would be covered, too.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Forcing people to buy insurance will force politicians to control costs? They need more incentives?
Am I the only one who finds that really sick?
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Most people won't be allowed on the exchange, the excise tax is a squeeze play
to steal value in wages exchanged for benefits over time and to shift more costs to the individual to make policies cheaper.

Of course there are no price controls at all or any competition for anyone excluded from the exchange which is about everybody.

The logic of having a mandate so more or less the people get hosed for a while and that eventually some kind of cost control will be allowed out of political necessity some time down the line is just fucking sad.

I guess he is preaching take whatever subsidies we can along with the sure accompanying general reaming and the hard one that comes for those who traded pay for health insurance and eventually someone will be forced to do something to reduce the pain.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. What about the medical loss ratio? is that still in the bill?
That will have more impact than the rest.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. One would think it would the the #1 issue mentioned. n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Exactly --- which got me thinking why they aren't talking about it -- can anyone say "Sunset MLR"
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks for posting that - I have asked and asked about what happened to
MLR - your post helped a little, but not totally.

Is the Rockefeller amendment in the Senate Bill or not? (Not saying you have to know - but I wish someone could answer definitively.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Thanks. That was a very helpful read.
It's great to actually read informative stuff, instead of propaganda.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. It is pretty indirect. Waiting a year for a rebate isn't easy if you are living hand to mouth
Of course they won't do the obvious thing and just force reasonable prices on insurers like public utility commissions do on public uttilities.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Let me see...
Bundled payments-nice idea, who sets the time frame?
Oh, 'regulators' that good, I'm sure that they will look out for our best interest-wait a minute, who's the regulators?
A Medicare Commission? Sweet. I'm sure that their hands would soon be full as they try to improve the wealth... I mean health-care system. Who were they again?
Yes an excise tax would probably force the cost of insurance down, but do you think that it would be lowered by cutting profits, or cutting some one ...I mean some 'thing' else?
Of course we need the 'individual mandate', how else can we maximize profits?





Look I willing to discuss this 6 ways to Sunday, but as long as the goal is to force more people in to private insurance I see no good coming from it.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. A whole side issue is what certain people want to transform the Medicare Commission into
I just don't have the energy tonight. If someone can pick up this baton, please do.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not really much point to it, really
The people who should be answering these questions and frankly some of those asking are too embroiled in sophistry, posturing, cajoling, and otherwise engaging in thoughtless tribal behavior tonight, and all day for that matter.

None of my questions have been answered in this thread and others where I raised them.

I have read your posts as of late..they have not fallen on deaf ears.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
20. Jesus! Will the bullshit never end?
Costa are controlled on the backs of the working class and that is supposed to be something to be proud of? The excise tax is a royal fuckover that will make insurance deals from collective bargaining way more expensive. Hey, but it saves the government money, and that's what counts.

And the same whores that are forcing this garbage on us are going to be the regulators. Fanstastic--just like all the other parasites who "regulate" thaie own industries.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. The bill does nothing to stop price gouging
My insurance goes up 40% this coming April. Either I pay it or I move to a 'health savings plan' where we have to pay 5K$ a year before any insurance kicks in, or I drop insurance altogether, which is illegal under this bill. This means I break my arm, I fly to Costa Rica to have it set even though I am already paying the insurance company 14k a year in premiums. That is my reality. This bill does nothing for me.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Imagine that. Some FACTS for once, instead of the usual lies from the usual suspects.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 12:18 PM by ClarkUSA
:thumbsup:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Your contempt is noted.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Just tellin' it like it is.
Did I hit a nerve?
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Your arrogance is also noted
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. lol!
I did hit a nerve.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Think your changing any minds?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I think I hit a major nerve.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Think your helping Obama get re-elected?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Just tellin' it like it is.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Think you're helping democrats get elected to congress in 2010?
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 01:20 PM by BlueIdaho
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I think I hit a major nerve.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Are you really this tone deaf?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Just tellin' it like it is.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Out of ideas? Think you're making the party bigger of smaller?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. See reply #55 for a good look in the mirror.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:21 PM by ClarkUSA
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Can the party afford to alienate the foot soldiers they depend on come election time?
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:34 PM by BlueIdaho
My point was and is that the tone of comments like yours and the OP in the other thread do more harm than good.

But thanks for the bump.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. As if you care. Stop posturing. I noticed you never preach to Obama bashers about their behavior.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:42 PM by ClarkUSA
Guess only those who stand up to the 24/7 Obama bashing lying liars around here bother you?


Your bias is showing.



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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Edited to make it even angrier?
Who hit a nerve?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Only after you edited your reply... just trying to keep up with your Outrage.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:48 PM by ClarkUSA
Pot, meet kettle.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. edited mine to be nicer - sorry you can't say the same.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. No, you edited yours to posture as if you cared about GOTVing. And I replied to that.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. You read minds?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. No, I correct revisionist bullshit.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. No, you have opinions, we all have opinions.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. Oooh, that sounds like threat to me.
You better shape up, Clark!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Yeah, holier-than-thou accusations from those who refer to Pres. Obama as an "emperor" are amusing.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:14 PM by ClarkUSA
Hypocrisy in action here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=71020&mesg_id=71298

Funny how those who trash Pres. Obama are so interested in getting him "re-elected", eh? Oh, the sanctimony!!!


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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. I'm sorry you don't understand metaphores.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. "metaphores"? Is that anything like semaphores?
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 03:08 PM by ClarkUSA
Nice try. Time for another edit. :rofl:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:14 PM
Original message
Never read the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 04:07 PM by BlueIdaho
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
71. D'oh!
:eyes:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. What is the moral of the that tale and who wrote it?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. lol! Funny how my truth-telling in reply #24 really hit a nerve, eh?
:nopity:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:22 PM
Original message
Its ok if you need some time to read it, its worthwhile - and relevent.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
80. Yes, I thought so.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. You really should read it - its relevant - and a well written story..
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Yawn.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 03:33 PM by ClarkUSA
:boring:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. You really need to understand metaphores - and this story.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. I understand that I hit a nerve with my telling it like it is.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Looks like someone's ego needs to have the last word - take it Clark.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Hmm... that reminds me. I have my leftover mashed Idaho potatoes from last night's dinner to eat.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. No threats - human nature
You can't bash folks and expect them to show up for the encore now can you?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. "You can't bash folks.." Who was bashing?
Ha, I knew I hit a nerve.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. "Usual lies for the usual suspects?" cmon.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. That's not what I said. What I said was both truthful and made sense.
Time for another edit.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Ok, then who wrote the subject for your post?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. See reply #24 and edit your post for the obvious misquote.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 03:19 PM by ClarkUSA
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Sorry, "Usual lies FROM the usual suspects" how does that make it any better? cmon.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Just tellin' it like it is.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. But not "bashing" right?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Nope. Just tellin' it like it is.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. No - you have opinions - we all have opinions
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. No, you have opinions to my tellin' it like it is.
:)
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Again, looks like someone's ego needs to have the last word - take it Clark.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 03:44 PM by BlueIdaho
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. See reply #90.
:)
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Always spoiling for a fight. nt.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. See reply 28.
:)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
30. Oh geez "make more money from doing less"
Do you not see the harm in that statement?

Ezra follows the WH line so as not to lose access I think.

Heck, the arm-twisting is so powerful that even Anthony Weiner is praising the bill and condemning Dean.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Yeah, that seems strange to me. Why is it in my interest for my doctor to do less for me ...
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 01:17 PM by GOTV
... I suppose it could be cheaper. I'm sure my doctor could charge a lot less if all he was willing to do is give me a couple of aspirin, shake my hand and show me the door. He might do that for only $100. But why am I better off?
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
34. Bundled Payments? Can you explain this further? Why is one check vs. many checks better ....
... and who is writing the checks? Is this a requirement on insurers to write fewer checks to be more efficient?
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
98. Less paperwork.
Often hospitals and doctors will be seperately for each procedure.

Now it is all in one.

It is a cost SAVINGS, but there is no requirement for it to be passed onto the consumers and it likely won't.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. Does Prudent Purchasing only apply to plans bought through the exchange?
... so does that leave insurers free to raise rates on non-exchange policies (which will be the majority right?) to offset the losses incurred on the exchange. Or even withdraw from the exchange if the profits there are too small?

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. Who pays the excise tax?
If I want to buy the highest coverage I can get, will I be hit with the tax?
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. OK, I found the answer to this one.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
39. How does the Individual Mandate force the insurers to pass on their windfall ...
... in the form of lower rates?

I can certainly see the argument that getting more healthy people into the system will provide a smaller cost per policy holder but why would all the insurers not just pocket that savings? Competition? Competition isn't working today. Why would it be better under the Senate bill?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
43. Wrong.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 01:21 PM by cornermouse
"Under bundled payments, the hospital would receive one check for everything related to your stroke over a single period of time. That means they make more money from doing less, rather than more money from doing more. It also gives them an incentive to coordinate care when you're out of the hospital, as it's cheaper to get a nurse to call and make sure you're taking your medicine than it is to have you in for a follow-up procedure."

Wrong. When they bundle, they do not pay for some of the procedures performed. They still provide supplies for procedures performed but bundled and therefore not paid. They still provide the hours of nursing care for procedures performed but bundled and therefore not paid. The hospital comes out of it with less money, not more. That is why the government and insurance companies started bundling procedures in the first place; to reduce payments to hospitals. And by the way, bundling has been going on for several years. I don't know why you think its anything new.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. But you can't cut healthcare costs by giving hospitals more can you?
If we're spending X per capita now, and you want to reduce that, you will have to spend <X per capita in the future. Therefore someone will be making less money.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. They aren't giving more.
They're giving less by refusing to pay for services provided by saying its part of the procedure; something that is not necessarily true. You might want to think about that for a while.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. That's what I'm saying, they give hospitals less - by neccesity. If you gave them more ....
... you'd be increasing the cost of health care which is exactly the opposite of what we want.

I don't know how that will not cause care to decline though.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Try again.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 01:43 PM by cornermouse
But the hospital still has to perform work and use supplies that they are not getting paid for in order to make you healthy even though they know they aren't going to get paid for it. That is why the government started the bundling procedures thing. To get free services.




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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Why? Aren't we agreeing? Hospitals will get less because otherwise costs do not go down
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
94. Do you have any idea at all what they've been
bundling and refusing to pay for? Even the faintest glimmer? And if they stop perform procedures free and don't do anything that won't be paid for, do you have any idea at all, other than the dollar signs floating around in your head?) what will mean to you?
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
92. Bump, some folk are still whining....
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
93. As a person who is still whining, what will make the insurance companies
lower their premiums for average consumers as a result of the listed cost controls? Given their track record, I'd say it's much more likely the CEO will buy another house and upgrade the corporate jet after he gets his influx of millions of captive customers. There's a reason we are not seeing insurance company advertising every 10 seconds on the television. They're happy.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
95. Ahh, the propaganda machine.
Bundled payments are NOT a "cost CONTROL". They MAY reduce internal costs to hospital, but there is no gaurantee thesavings is passed on.

"prudent purchasing" is pretty much a joke. So long as the corporations act in concert (which they have always done in the past), no one will be refused.

The "excise tax" is easily passed on and again, ignores the fact that these particular corporations WORK IN CONCERT!

The individual mandate argument is based on the idiotically false premise that those without insurance are mostly healthy.

You have an industry that has acted in concert for years, bolstering one anothers bottom lines (much like the oil industry). As long as they all raise prices together, everyone thinks it is legit, but amazingly their RoI keeps rising.. WoW!

Now we pass a bunch of rules that are EASILY sidestepped by them doing EXACTLY what they have done in the past and people actually believe it is cost controls?

Please.. get real.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
97. Let's pass it and then get rid of the mandate
K&R
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Let's pass it and add stuff to it every year, like Sen. Rockefeller said the other day.
:)
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