If you believe Mandates will cause Insurance Companies to keep rates reasonable....

[Armstead]

I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[hobbit709]

1. I'll even throw in a couple of monuments

[Joe Bacon]

42. Wow those mandates sure work for California car owners

Yeah, 1/3 to 1/4 don't have policies because they cannot afford them.

Yep, those mandates really work :sarcasm:

[golddigger]

2. I'll throw in the White House for good measure.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. *rim shot*

[dkf]

3. Yeah its a joke.

And they'll blame it all on the Government and Democrats..."You didn't put a stiff enough fine on the mandate, that is why I'm raising all your premiums." So GD obvious. Sickening.

[Armstead]

4. yeah...remember when the Insurers pulled that card a few months ago

[ZombieHorde]

5. The bill needs co-pay caps, needs to forbid annual help caps,

and needs monthly maximum cost caps.

[Vinnie From Indy]

6. You can be absolutely sure that insurance companies

already have devised at least a dozen ways to screw folks over to keep those FAT executive compensation packages coming. It is actually quite amusing to read the same BS over and over again from the bill supporters. They insist that the bill is worth it because it "covers 30 million people without insurance" and "it ends denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions" etc. If Big Insurance has proved anything in the last years, it is that these provisions are MEANINGLESS to them because they will NEVER play fair.

I guarantee that if the HCR bill passes with or without public option or Medicare buy-in, we will be here in a few years discussing stories of how Big Insurance devised strategies that make these "good" provisions moot.

[rocktivity]

7. Sure, they'll keep the rates reasonable

since they'll still be able to maximize their profits by providing LESS coverage and services. Insurance companies stay in business by collecting more in benefits than they pay out in claims. If they can't collect more in claims, they'll simply cut back on the other end.

Any mandates should go into public funding.


rocktivity

[NJmaverick]

8. Wo! what a fact filled and well thought out commentary

I am so glad I clicked into this post. I feel enlightened. Thank you for putting so much time and effort into this post Armstead. The quality of your final product really shows that effort.

[unblock]

10. brilliant critique!! very constructive criticism!! i'm sure armstead's posts will improve markedly

and it will all be solely due to your incisive comments.

du, and indeed, the entire world, will be a far better place thanks you your reply!

i'm so glad you took the time to analyze and comment in this thread.


:evilgrin:

[Armstead]

12. Thank you. I'm sure you really meant that.

And in the same spirit...Fuck you very much. :)

[Moochy]

14. You know what are the hallmarks of a true maverick?

Message Discipline, and Complete and Total Obedience to the Insurance Industry.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Seriously. The insurance co. shills on DU are getting so obvious. eom

[Armstead]

32. They ought to reconsider their hiring policies

[unblock]

9. any good economist will tell you the best way to keep prices down is to forcibly increase demand

NOT

[Armstead]

11. Um, maybe in an industry that is not based on denying services

The basic function of insurance profitability is based on denying the services that people pay for.

That, combined with the life-and-death nature of healthcare, places them outside of the usual laws of supply and demand.

The only way they would keep rates reasonable is to provide fewer services. All that changes with more people is the scale.

[unblock]

13. claims denial/deferral is certainly a big source of their profitability

but of course their money comes in the first place from premiums.
with little competition, protection from anti-trust laws, and soon with coerced buyers, they will have greater profit incentives to jack up premiums even more than they have been doing always. plus, look for more mergers and even less competition in the future as well.

the ability of people to say no to a sucky product almost always a good way to keep prices down, or at least to limit price increases. despite the inescapable need of health CARE, people can and do say no to health INSURANCE. most notably those who can't afford it and also those who believe themselves to be young and healthy and not in need of it. once the mandate comes, much of that will be removed.

insurance companies will still delay, deny, and defer claims. but they will also jack up premiums.

a government fine of $400 for failing to buy insurance will prompt insurers to hike rates by at around $200, so split the difference with you. actually, as they have more bargaining power than you, they would likely hike rates even more. this of course is in addition to the usual 16% annual hike or whatever it is these days.

[Armstead]

16. Mergers have already been occurring at an alarming rate in recent years

It has been little noted, but the number of insurers has decreased while the size of the remaining ones has increased.

Scary stuff if that intensifies.

[Hello_Kitty]

23. Since when?

Increased demand for a product nearly always causes price to go up, not down.

[unblock]

27. you might want to read the body of my post, not just the header....

[Hello_Kitty]

30. Oops!

:blush:

[unblock]

33. :)

:hi:

[Garam_Masala]

15. Mandates are a CRUEL JOKE

on any one who is not rich.

[unblock]

20. yup. we ask for a public option, and we get a private mandate.

[Armstead]

38. We ask for help and we get punished

[wackywaggin]

17. Mandate all Senators and Congresspersons to be on this plan

All federal, state, and local employees of government should be required to be on this plan if it so great for everybody else.

[Armstead]

18. They're set and don't have to worry about it

[Proud Liberal Dem]

19. Wouldn't the government subsidies provide some measure of accountability for insurance companies?

Although it may seem that this is some kind of "giveaway" to insurance companies, the insurance companies will be under pressure like never before to keep rates reasonable and provide more coverage since people are going to be required to purchase their product- many via government subsidies that simply CANNOT be expanded infinitely. This kind of mandated private system may actually create MORE momentum for single-payer because, like with a draft and war, nearly everybody will become intimately affected by it and the more people have to deal with private insurance companies, the more likely they are to demand greater accountability for the money they spend- as is the government. Insurance companies, theoretically, or going to HAVE to produce results (i.e. savings, reasonable rates, good coverage) or face the kind of popular backlash that could end in their extinction and implementation of a government-run system. A mandated system like this- with the provision of government subsidies- may be more of a Venus Flytrap for them than they (or the rest of us) realize. Just something to consider. :shrug:

[unblock]

21. very good points, but rather long-term thinking for more du'ers appetites :)

first, the mandates/subsidies don't kick in until 2014. this means that the consituency you speak of won't really be paying attention until then.

in the meanwhile, the insurance ocmpanies and subsequent congresses and maybe a new president after 2012 will tinker with the legislation. at a minumum, there will be some uncertainty as to how it will all play out. this pushes people to wait and see, rather than act.

only once they see just HOW much it sucks will they (PLEASE) stand up and complain enough to force action.

but you're absolutely correct, if this legislation does NOTHING beyond convince people that congress actually CAN change health insurance, that alone will make it a lot easier to change it in the future. a dramatic improvement over what clinton was able to accomplish, which in this area was only to erect a brick wall protecting the status quo.

the question is, how many years until we have something we'll actually be proud of? or decades?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

35. As to your last question

I think a lot about that one too. I really can't believe we're not quite *there* yet. I have a hard time believing it's actually been so long since we last tried to reform health care in this country and very little (if anything) has changed for the better- in fact it's really only gotten worse as far as I can tell for most people. :banghead:

Also, if the mandate doesn't kick in for 3 years, then what is everybody freaking out about? :shrug: Our economy might be doing much better and people might actually have more money in 3 years so it won't be such a huge deal. Of course, by then the exchanges should theoretically be up and running as well too, so............what's with all of the brouhaha? :shrug:

[Armstead]

37. The brouhaha is that the basic impact of a mandate will not go away

Maybe tyhe economy will be great in three years.

That has no bearing on anything. Therecv will still be millions of people who cannot afford insurance.

In the meantime it will piss off enough independents and energize conservatives that its going to be a lot easier for re[;publicans to regain control.

[Armstead]

22. There is no real accountability -- It would give them a freer hand

Asv it is now, peopel do have a choice to go withiout insurance. Not a good choice, but a choice.

If they are forced to buy a product, insueres don't have to entice them at all. Maybe some competition among themselves, but you know they will be colluding to keep "competition" very narrow.

Also people already have to deal with the crap of insurance companies. It did create a momentum for reform. But if we do something that is ultimately worse than nothing, there will be very little support for anything that is truly reform.

[Hello_Kitty]

25. Right. That's worked out so well with defense contractors.

Really keeping Halliburton and KB&R accountable to us.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

34. I'm not sure that's the best analogy

Not many of us I suspect have or know anything much about dealings between the government and defense contractors. Nearly everybody has had some experience with insurance companies (unfortunately).

[Hello_Kitty]

36. You're kidding, right? I and many other DUers are veterans.

I saw defense contractor shenanigans up close and personal. Believe me, handing gov't subsidies to people with no accountability and a guarantee that they will profit is just asking to be ripped off.

[blueworld]

26. You mean we can't trust them to police themselves???? n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. About as much as I trust my kids to stay out of the cookie jar when I leave the room.

[Armstead]

31. About as much as a fox in a henhouse

[Odin2005]

39. The mandates are FASCISM

They make us serfs of the insurance industry.

[Skittles]

40. no shit

[Jamastiene]

41. K&R