Is the White House so stupid not to know they'll lose a generation of Democrats over the mandate?

[brentspeak]

1) Loyal Democratic Voter, barely scraping-by each month with the groceries for his family/the mortgage/rent/etc., opens his mailbox to suddenly discover that they must cough up $1,000-$2,000/month for the privilege of receiving a $5,000 deductible Joke Health Insurance "Coverage"...or else. Suddenly, the extra $25-or-so/month the family always finds it needs to avert disaster each month is small potatoes compared to this new challenge foisted upon them.

2) Loyal Democratic Voter reads up on this atrocity, and discovers that Obama and the Democrats who supported the new law said it was "good for them". Oh, and if they don't like it, they'll be assessed an extra tax (or is that "fine"?)

3) Loyal Democratic Voter is now Previously Loyal Democratic Voter

4) "Yes We Can" poster is torn into a million tiny little pieces.

[natrat]

1. dont you get it? this is the plan

[Skittles]

2. now you see what "Yes We Can" really means

[Davis_X_Machina]

3. It certainly destroyed the Democratic Party in Massachusetts...

...which actually has a purchase mandate, and a penalty for non-compliance.

And the jails are full, too.

Oh, wait a minute, in a September 28, 2009 poll by the Boston Globe and the Harvard School of Public Health, a whopping 11% of respondents called for repeal of the 2006 plan. And 58% of respondents supported the initiative.

And the state legislature that passed the bill remains, on average, 7-1 Democratic.

Complete disaster.

[Skittles]

8. yes, all is rosy in Massachusetts

http://www.boston.com/business/healthcare/articles/2009/09/16/health_insurers_plan_10_rise_in_rates/

[Davis_X_Machina]

44. That's 0.2% over the national average increase in premiums + out of pocket.

...and lower than the average national increase in individual premiums + out-of-pocket.

A disaster, I tell you.

[Skittles]

9. dup

[brentspeak]

10. Rasmussen poll done in April shows no enthusiasm or much support for Romneycare

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/massachusetts/toplines/toplines_massachusetts_healthcare_reform_june_24_2009

Also, any dislike of the Mass plan can always be traced to Romney, not to the Democrats. And this plan is even worse than Romneycare. The Democrats will completely own this turkey.

[Laelth]

4. Evidently so.

On the other hand, perhaps it is intentional. I have long thought that Democrats prefer to be the minority in Congress. It's much easier, and they can just blame Republicans for everything that's wrong.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Zodiak]

32. And the corporate Democrats can help the R legislation along

...just like they did under Bush.

And then DEMAND the votes from the left.

[Laelth]

36. Yep. That's exactly what I have seen. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[jenmito]

5. Didn't 18 million people vote for Hillary who was for mandates?

[MNDemNY]

11. Not to mention those Annual caps on benefits.

You know the ones you claim do not exist.Those are a nice provision, don't you think?

[jenmito]

13. You're wrong. There is no annual cap on benefits. There's a cap on how much we have to spend

out of pocket.

[MNDemNY]

14. Nope you lie again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=69513&mesg_id=70885

[jenmito]

15. I'm not lying. YOU are. There is no cap on benefits! There's a limit on how much WE have to pay!

[MNDemNY]

16. Read the bill

Page 16 http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

[jenmito]

17. Read the latest version of the bill. There are no caps on benefits. Period.

[MNDemNY]

18. Prove it.

no link????? There was talk of "fixing" this, not done yet!!! And it will not, as that would make the bill "to expensive".

[jenmito]

21. ...

3. Insurance Companies Will Never Be Able to Drop or Deny You Coverage Because You Are Sick: Insurers can no longer deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They can’t rescind coverage or impose lifetime or annual limits on care. Significantly, the bill also ends insurer discrimination against women — who currently pay as much as 48% more for coverage than men — and gives them access preventive services with no cost sharing.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/16/podesta-passing-senate-bill/

[MNDemNY]

22. You link to an advocate site to "prove" your lie??

That is NOT the bill. Show me IN THE BILL WHERE I AM WRONG I posted a link to the COMPLETE BILL, the most current one released. You post to a site advocating passage of this bill and claim it as proof??? That in itself is another lie. :rofl:

[jenmito]

24. You told me to look at "page 16 line 8" and the link you gave me had 9 pages!

:rofl:

[MNDemNY]

26. TRY THE LINK !!! PDF TO COMPLETE BILL 2000+ PAGES

THIS POSTER IS LYING AGAIN !http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

[jenmito]

28. YOU'RE THE LIAR! It's right there!:

‘‘Subpart II—Improving Coverage
2 ‘‘SEC. 2711.NO LIFETIME OR ANNUAL LIMITS.
3 ‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—A group health plan and a health
4 insurance issuer offering group or individual health insur5
ance coverage may not establish—
6 ‘‘(1) lifetime limits on the dollar value of bene7
fits for any participant or beneficiary; or
8 ‘‘(2) unreasonable annual limits (within the
9 meaning of section 223 of the Internal Revenue
10 Code of 1986) on the dollar value of benefits for any
11 participant or beneficiary.

[MNDemNY]

29. Page 16 line 8 No "unreasonable "Annual caps.

"Unreasonable " is not the same as "no" READ !!

[jenmito]

30. I read it. Now YOU apologize. I was right-no lifetime or annual limits on benefits.

Try to find something REAL to be against. :rofl:

[MNDemNY]

34. No read line 8 "Unreasonable " is a far cry from "No"

Again with the lying. it's even in your own post. LINE 8 Your a trip.:rofl: :rofl:

[MNDemNY]

31. Yup its right there even in your own cut and paste line 8 !!!

:rofl:

[jenmito]

33. "‘SEC. 2711.NO LIFETIME OR ANNUAL LIMITS."

DEAL WITH IT. ;) :hi:

[MNDemNY]

35. You can not just choose to read that line. keep reading . Line 8

NOPE YOU FAIL!!!

[MNDemNY]

37. Lie of omission.

Again.:rofl: :crazy:

[jenmito]

38. I'm enjoying watching your meltdown.

:rofl:

[MNDemNY]

43. "Selective Reading" good for you.

You are still lying.

[MNDemNY]

23. THAT IS NOT THE BILL THAT IS AN ADVOCATE SITE.

Cite the provision in the bill, or admit your lie.I cited Page and line IN THE ACTUAL BILL . You quote an advocate site. BULLSHIT!!!

[jenmito]

25. STOP CALLING ME A LIAR!!!

[MNDemNY]

27. THE LINK IS GOOD AND YOU KNOW IT !!!

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf HERE IT IS AGAIN !!!! And you are still lying.

[Lyric]

6. They don't think it'll happen that way, I guess.

They seem to think that Loyal Democratic Voter is some kind of noble savage who will be grateful that we have prioritized his spending for him. That he will be relieved that we have decided his health care insurance is a more important expense than groceries, rent, utilities, or Christmas stuff for his kids, and therefore, should be paid first and foremost. They might go hungry, homeless, and cold, but they'll have their shitty healthcare plan, whether they need it more than food/shelter/warmth or not!

[loudsue]

7. The mandate HAS TO BE STOPPED in the house bill. If there is a mandate, there will be revolution.

Remember, the republican base is poor & uneducated. If they are forced to pay for insurance, they will join the militias. Come to think of it, I will too. I refuse to be forced to pay for insurance. It's so contrary to everything Americans believe about themselves, much less is it right.

[natrat]

19. if there were genuine cost control it would be ok

[Laelth]

41. Only a big PO (with like 50+ million people) will control costs.

Competition is the only real way to do it, and it looks like all we can get is a puny PO or no PO.

Obama promised us as follows:

ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/obama_says_health-care_reform.html

And, yet, what does it appear that we will get? No public option. Will Obama stand firm and veto the bill if it doesn't contain a PO? I doubt it.

I say, kill the bill. It's worse than doing nothing.

:dem:

-Laelth

[earthside]

12. 'Mandate' will mean a bloodbath in 2010.

Diss the crazy Teabaggers and radical Republicans all you want, but the charge that Obama and the Democrats are going to make all everyday working Americans buy corporate health insurance or get fined ... is going to mean a political bloodbath in 2010.

A mandate was one thing if a person/family was going to have the option of getting into a reasonably priced government or expanded Medicare plan, but a mandate plus a 'promise' that somehow folks are going to get a rebate from the federal government is serving-up a propaganda dish to the right-wingers that will sweep them back into control of Congress. (A federal government $12 trillion in debt can only make 'promises' of insurance subsidies, the right has already laid all the groundwork for that argument.)

Let's face it, politically this health insurance reform effort has been screwed-up so badly that getting away from it as fast as possible is now the best alternative.

Let's hope that Lieberman or Nelson goes out on the filibuster limb and saws this thing off -- let them take the blame and the fall.

My biggest wonderment is that the Democratic leadership in the Senate did not see this filibuster poison back in January when they could have changed the rules. Now, the only hope for any other important legislation is the 'nuclear option' to kill the filibuster. Otherwise, this health care reform episode has only enabled and encouraged the intransigence of the Repugs and grandstanding by the Lieberman/Nelson crowd.

What a mess.

[natrat]

20. that's the whole idea silly

[Fire1]

40. And sadly, it's going to work. n/t

[andym]

39. What happened to the employer mandate?

At least it would not put the burden on individuals. And for the unemployed there should be govt insurance and for the self-employed or small businesses there should be rewards (tax credit) not punishments if they get insurance. Probably wouldn't get 94%, but it would be a big improvement.

Anyway none of this solves the big problems which are 1) greedy insurance companies, 2) greedy Pharma and Medical device companies, 3) greedy Hospitals (who strongly lobbied against the Medicare expansion), and 4) greedy physicians (esp Specialists) (Physicians' lobby strongly lobbied against Medicare expansion.)

[Laelth]

42. Gone. afaik.

Our corporate masters didn't like it. The Democratic Party was happy to oblige and eliminated it.

:dem:

-Laelth

[bvar22]

45. They KNOW...They just don't care.

"Centrist" Democrat?
Republican?

It doesn't matter.
THEY both work for the SAME people.

This is just one more Smash & Grab by the Money Party.

Watch Out!
Medicare and Social Security is NEXT.

[opihimoimoi]

46. Doomers and Gloomers!!! OMG....where is the Optimism??? Nothing Obama does is ever good? WTF?

He is our MAN, our President, in time of super stress I might add. He deserves a decent 1st quarter before judgement...but no, the gop snipers are on every tree and hill..

Sgt York Obama is charging up the hill and I am w him...