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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:22 PM
Original message
Hindsight is occasionally blurry

Hindsight is occasionally blurry

Posted by: Economist.com | WASHINGTON

BRAD DELONG got himself a lot of links yesterday by writing that efforts to save the banking industry last fall, by eroding public trust in government, increased the odds of a replay of the Great Depression from virtually nothing to 5%. Paul Krugman takes it from there:

Brad DeLong says that the loss of public trust due to the kid-gloves treatment of bankers has raised the probability of another Great Depression, because the public won’t support another round of bailouts even if it becomes desperately necessary. I agree — but I think the bigger cost is that we’ve greatly increased the chance of a Japanese-style lost decade, with I would now give roughly even odds of happening. Why? Because bank-friendly policies have squandered public trust in all government action: try talking to the general public about stimulus, and it’s all confounded in their minds with the deeply unpopular bailouts.


One side of this discussion is whether the government was actually able to handle things differently. Mr Krugman says yes; Economics of Contempt says no. I'm sympathetic to Mr Contempt's view, but I also think that—as with Lehman—the government could have come with something if it had wanted to. And I agree with Felix Salmon:

(T)he government owned AIG, which created the situation that Germans call Anstaltslast: the fact that state-owned companies simply don’t default on their obligations. The government was also battling a major crisis using the only weapon at its disposal: enormous amounts of liquidity. When you’re putting out a fire, you don’t stop to worry that large amounts of liquidity are going to end up where you don’t particularly want them — the important thing is putting out the fire.

So yes, given a bit more aggression and foresight, the Fed could have tried to cram down a haircut onto AIG’s counterparties. But at the time, no one was particularly interested in being harsh to the global financial sector; instead, they were trying to rescue it. With hindsight, it now seems that companies like Goldman Sachs have turned out to be the biggest winners, paying out billions of dollars in bonuses even as the rest of the country struggles with an extremely nasty recession. But that wasn’t particularly foreseeable. And so although I agree with Barofsky that the Fed and Treasury should have been harsher on the counterparties, I do understand why they weren’t.

Perhaps Mr DeLong is right, and America now faces a 5% probability of Depression. On the other hand, if you swapped out the folks who were in charge last fall with a group inclined to drive a hard bargain with the banks, you might find yourself in a world in which the Fed and the Treasury fail to convince markets that they'll do whatever they have to do save the financial system, in which a nasty cycle of deleveraging continues to drive important institutions into the ground, and in which the odds of Depression rise to 5%, or higher.

That's the nature of many of these interventions—we all live to whine another day. If an overwhelming stimulus prevents the economy from experiencing a major contraction, then many people will feel as though the situation probably wasn't that bad to begin with, that stimulus wasn't necessary, and that now they're saddled with a bunch of debt they didn't need to take on. Successful stimulus may well undermine the ability of governments to deploy successful stimulus in the future.

I do think the Obama administration is learning the lesson that public confidence is key. While I believe that administration officials are well aware of the potential long-term costs of a failure to address the deficit, I think they're making deficit-reduction a near-term priority precisely because increased fiscal credibility will allow the government more flexibility to address economic weakness now.



Brad DeLong responds

<...>

Ummm... With respect to Felix, the key issue is not making AIG creditors take a haircut but rather making them share the upside with the government--as Chrysler shared the upside with the government with its loan guarantee program, as Al Gore was able to stand up there at the VP debate in 1996 and say that the U.S. had made money out of its bailout of Mexico.

If Free Exchange wants to ignore the fact that we are now out of macroeconomic running room, they are of course free to do so. But it might be more constructive for Free Exchange to help me think how we can get some of that running room back. We might need it. We might need it real bad.


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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. You can't possibly have time to actually read these, as fast as you post them
Edited on Wed Nov-18-09 10:27 PM by Go2Peace
who's feeding them to you? Or is the idea just to see how often you can see your own name? You spam these boards, why?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:27 PM
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. "craftsman" as I call her is a big supporter of the Stupak Language in the HCR bill..
or at least it seems.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. I've noticed you calling her names.
It doesn't really make any sense. :/
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Pro Sense isn't spamming the threads and we
Edited on Wed Nov-18-09 11:57 PM by Cha
really don't need any net nannies attacking the political information that she brings on this board.

Unless you have a problem with the source?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Constant cut-and-paste tripe.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Democratic Activist site,..Uhhhhh.. People posting information
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 08:24 AM by Peacetrain
on Democratic issues, on a Democratic Activist site.. what am I missing with your complaint? Of course people cut and paste to bring the information in here..

What is your deal?
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Many of our most respected contributors rarely comment personally...
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 08:28 AM by OneGrassRoot
they're contribution is to pass along information found elsewhere for our consideration. That's one of the reasons this site is so wonderful -- the wealth of information gathered for discussion. The OP's aren't required to have original content, simply (if possible) not duplicate information.


Edit to add that I now see this is your schtick throughout many threads. Carry on.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Thanks for explaining that to the poster..
Yes, hectoring is the common schtick.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. No, it isn't..you're just trying to discredit the messenger..
and it's an Epic Fail.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Wipe.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. What the fuck are you trying to say now, chickenliver?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. "chicken liver"??
:rofl: What's next? "up your nose with a rubber hose."??:rofl: :rofl:
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. As opposed to you pasting "What do you think of Stupak?" over and over.
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 01:34 PM by Starbucks Anarchist
And over and over and over...
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. No, i type that myself!
}(
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Breaking news: Deep Depression Started a Year Ago
It really did. Bush drove the economy over a cliff.

But Obama grabbed hold of the wheel, averting disaster by keeping the banking system from collapsing.

People would have made a mad dash for their money if Obama etal, hadn't floated the system.

Tell me you weren't thinking about it, kids. Tell me that you didn't think all hell was gonna break loose.

Well, it didn't, and here we are. So buck up buckos. And thank your lucky stars Obama arrived in the nick of time.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. ..
Thank you, BeFree.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. And this has what to do with the shitty HCR bills?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. shitty bills?
Edited on Wed Nov-18-09 11:13 PM by BeFree
You call the first reform of HC in 50 years -"shitty"?

Gawd you are tough to please, eh? Tougher than me, anyway.

Tell ya what, get yourself elected, and then get back to me. Ha!!

You obviously don't quite understand the gist of governing in its present form, or you'd quit attacking DU members,
in effect showing your lack of understanding. We don't run the friggin government. And it appears you never will.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Shitty.
The Insurance Industry Profit Protection and Anti-Choice Act of 2009



You like it?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yeah
I like it. Only a fool wouldn't like it.

Ever hear of Hubert Humphrey? He knew how government works. He'd be happy as hell today,
because finally, the government has made a move on HCR. For 50 years - nada, zilch on HCR.

Today, we have the ball rolling. Get behind it if you really want HCR because finally, we have something going.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. YOU are thr fool.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Eh?
Me and HHH are fools, now?

Well, you convinced me, sure did.
I'm anti-reform now.
If it's not perfect, we can just do without.
Either we get the full loaf, or we starve.

We'll just leave things as they are, screw any reform.
And Screw democracy?
Them people are crazy.
We're the only one's who are right.

&&&&&

Feel better, now?

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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. these people don't actually want to be in charge
because then they'd have to be responsible for actually doing something. For instance, I'm sure Kucinich is happy being a congressman rather than president because he doesn't actually have to accomplish anything, he is free to go on TV and attack the guy who actually IS trying to do something for not being "liberal" enough.

Half of me wants Kucinich to win the presidency so I can post nonstop negative threads about him because he hasn't immediately fixed our problems.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. +1000
Geez, some people around here actually seem disappointed that didn't happen.

I take it back, freepers, we have our extremists, too. They care as little for their fellow Americans as you do.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. The subthreads are an Epic fail
Seems you have touched a nerve or two Prosense.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. No.
whinning to mods= epic fail. when you get wooped, cry!;-)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Yeah, they didn't like the message so they
tried to discredit the messenger and you're right.. it was an Epic Fail.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Cry much?
:cry: :cry:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Oh you're back ..whimpering like a fuckin' bully.
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 05:13 PM by Cha
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. >>
go cry to the mods. whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!:o :cry: :cry:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. some people just seem to hate banks, insurance companies
and large corporations, but do they really think that they don't employ a lot of people and that their demise would cause a great deal of pain to those people and the people who have 401ks and other investment funds, which includes a great part of the middle class?

You can see the desperation around here that the economy might get better! It's like they want it to fail so they can wallow in doom and gloom and blame for anyone who is trying to do something.

It isn't as if there aren't crooks on Wall Street. Yet a lot of our wealth is located there, so it's collapse would not be some wonderful thing to party about; everyone would suffer.

So sick of DU doom and gloomers sitting on their high horse as if the country really could take the destruction they root for.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Well
stated, treestar.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Amen. They want the economy to implode, so they can say, "I told you so!"
Needless suffering for tens of millions seem to make these people happy, in some sick and twisted way.

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Spoken like a proud DLCer! carry on!
Lot's of folks are "employed" by our two wars , as well. Should we perpetrate and expand them as well?
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