We're killing Social Securiy.You are mandated to buy an investment fund at Goldman Sachs"

[Armstead]

Not many people would be very happy about that.

So why are so many iof you eager to KILL the possibility of REAL health reform through a public Medicare-style system by pushing through this FURTHER PRIVATIZATION OF HEALTHCARE BILL?

It baffles me. You say you want to move forward...So why accept this giant step backward towards a Corporate Wet Dream version of neo-con health care that further strengthens the feudal empire of greedy private insurers?

This is not about the "perfect being the enemy of the good." It is about the BAD being the enemy of the good.

[AllentownJake]

1. Didn't they try that in 2005

and didn't result in an epic Fail.

[Armstead]

2. The GOP did and it was....People do support PUBLIC programs when push comes to shove

That's why the assumption that putting this in the hands of private insurance through mandates is just dumb

[CJCRANE]

3. That was Buscho's big idea for the 2nd term.

The war on terror was forgotten about, hence the terror alerts stopped after the '04 election and Ashcroft claimed that terrorism had been defeated:

"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved."

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2004_11_01_indexarch.php#110009506412578474

Of course, Shrub's roadshows didn't work, so they had to restart the war on terror.

[Armstead]

4. a variation is Rhambama's big idea for a first term

They want to further privatize health care and pre-empt any expansion of Medicare

[havocmom]

33. Yep, and I really believe that is why we have mandate first, reform later

Insurance premiums end up going where? Wall Street.

Mandates and little real reform/price competition is paying Wall Street, only with the added middleman of insurance companies as money launderers.

[Armstead]

5. Can some supporter of this bill please explain why this is a good thing to do?

[AllentownJake]

6. Because if it doesn't pass Obama will lose to Sarah Palin in 2012

and she will mandate Christianity is the only explanation I can get.

Oh and the 30,000,000 who will be fined and not get insurance.

[Armstead]

8. We turn into pumpkins if it is not passed by Christmas

[Turbineguy]

7. GS is my worst performing fund.

Where are all the customers' yachts?

[Armstead]

9. No matter -- Forcing you to keep it will be good for you

Dunno why, but that's the thinking in healthcare reform

[Turbineguy]

10. It's on my shoot list.

[Raster]

11. Wait for it, it is coming!

[loudsue]

12. I'm outraged, too Armstead. I don't understand why people keep trying to find what's "good"

about this bill. THE BILL ITSELF IS AWFUL!!!

The worst part to me is the mandate. By far. Does nobody remember what the republicans can do to the "law" when they get in congress? All they have to do once they're back in power is remove the "restrictions" this bill places on insurance companies, and we'll all be paying out the NOSE for the WORST insurance, at far higher prices, and we're going to HAVE TO DO IT BY LAW, or we can all start bunking in the privatized prisons.

It's NOT just that this mandate sucks. It's also the HORRIBLE DANGER it places us in once the republicans get back in....which they will in 2012.

This is more of a set up than anybody realizes.

:argh: I fucking hate obama. That two-faced sonuvabitch. And Reid and Pelosi are next on the list.

[gaysonf]

13. insurance company

this is horrible , howard dean was right

[Armstead]

20. GOP will "remove restrictions" --Exactly

They will keep the bad stuff, and take out the "socialist" things like controls over insurance and we'll be worse off than when we started.

[treestar]

14. We have social security though

It only applies to retirees. But we don't have health care for all, only those over 65 or disabled or poor enough to qualify for the government plan. This bill isn't dropping the government plan for people over 65, etc.

[Armstead]

19. If they qwere starting Mewdicare now -- They woukld niot have done itr as a public program

Instead, the fucking "hate government" Democrats wouod have done it as a plan t fiorce you to buy into a private investment fund.

[depakid]

15. Tmidity, stupidity and sycophantry

Triplets in the continuing slide toward third world socioeconomic status- this time under a nominally Democratic congress and administration.

[Unvanguard]

16. This bill does not "further" privatize health care; that's just ludicrous.

And your false analogy dies with the failure of that claim.

[Armstead]

18. Tell me why? Really, how is it not privatization when...

All forms of a public option and/or expansion of madicare or other actual public health program were taken off the tab;e -- and yet we get fucking MANDATES to buy private insurance.

Please tell me why that is not PRIVATIZATION ON STERIODS?

[Unvanguard]

23. Because nothing currently public is being made private.

We didn't have single-payer or a public option beforehand, and Medicare is not being curtailed.

The mandates don't privatize anything. Actually, with the regulatory framework that the mandates are supposed to complement, the bill represents much greater public control over health insurance than before. It's not the ideal level, but it's a start.

[Zodiak]

24. 450 billion is going from the public coffers to these companies

Yes, it is indeed privatization.

[ima_sinnic]

26. s/he's apparently arguing the semantics of "further" privatization

it's privatization all right, just not "further" because it wasn't "public" to begin with.
However, it's been "private" all along, so why isn't it "further"?

:crazy:

[Vidar]

17. K&R.

[quaker bill]

21. The initial concept of Social Security

was mandatory private sector investment. Bush tried to revive it.

I am afraid you are mistaken about the current bill. Neo-Cons like the status quo just fine. Those with money purchase insurance, those without cannot have healthcare short of a life and death emergency. They see this as creating a strong incentive to work for pitiful wages.

There is no way they prefer a government subsidy going to the poor. Even if the insurance companies get the all of the dollars, the poor will get care that "they do not deserve". You underestimate the lunacy on the right.

[rasputin1952]

22. I have to ask...

at this point, what is the alternative?

Oh yes...absolutely nothing getting done....more people dying as we wait for something "perfect"...or "good".

Let's see what comes out of conference before we find the sky falling...:hi:

[Armstead]

25. The alternatives are many AND doable and practical

But they are only practical if the Democrats stop caving into the insurance industry and their hired hands in Congress.

MOST Democrats support at least the alternative of a strong public option or the ability to buy into Medicare. That is one way. Why kowtow tio a miniority, instead of making the majority give up what they really wanted?

Or since they are willing to provide subsidies, why not just do subsidies now and offer immediate help, without tying it into a mandate? That would make coverage affordable to more people.

Why not really regulate insurance companies -- n0ot just rely on phony "market competition" to determine the cost?

Regulation. You remember that quaint old concept.

[rasputin1952]

28. Every step forward is progress...

Doing nothing or killing off any bill is an invitation to disaster.

It is difficult at best for me to see how most do not understand that nothing is in stone, there is still a Senate/House conference coming up, and if people act to ensure that their congresscritters know how they feel...by writing, calling e-mailing...just like the RW is doing, there will be better Bills forthcoming.

I have spent the last few weeks trying to get people to do this...instead, people decry everything on the pages of DU.

It takes action to get things done. If 1/4 of the energy expended on DU was spent hammering home the message to elected officials who can actually do something...we would not be seeing all of this going down.

[dave29]

27. "We're invading Iraq, but you still have to pay taxes"

.

Sometimes we have to do stuff we don't want to do in life, for the better of our fellow human beings. Even if we hate it.

And I dispute the corporate wet dream. Their dreams may be wet, but they are fading.

[avaistheone1]

29. Kicked

I wish I could recommend by the time has expired to do.

[treestar]

30. Let's not buy or rent houses

That puts money in the hands of the construction industry.

I should not have bought that car, it just put money into GMs pockets. GM is a huge corporation and it ripped me off.

Let's quit going to doctors. They are rich, and seeking their help just lines their pockets.

Quit buying auto insurance. It just lines the pockets of the insurance industry. If you are in an accident, you can always pay the damages out of pocket. Though you would be lining the pockets of the body shop industry and the insurance industry and the medical industrial complex.

I continue to line the pockets of big agribusiness and General Foods, I don't know why. I should just grow tomatoes and lettuce in the back yard.

I have enriched Sony many times over. TVs, cassette players (these are now obsolete, so Sony ripped me off once again).

The publishing industry! They have ripped me off over and over by taking my money.

I enrich the insurance industry yet again by paying for homeowner's insurance, just in case the house burns down! And that might not ever happen!

[Odin2005]

31. The mandate is the definition of FASCISM.

[treestar]

32. When you pay into Social Security

It's like insurance. Does the government just keep that money or does it invest it somewhere?

Is the 401k plan an outrage? It uses taxes to encourage people to put their money in retirement plans, all of which must enrich Wall Street.

I think it is more complex than that. Distrust of Wall Street and large companies makes some sense, but carrying it this far could be counter-productive. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say you are wrong but then again I just don't see being that mistrustful as being rational either and could not support it with facts.

When the crisis occurred people were upset their 401ks were going down in value. they didn't hate Wall Street then; they didn't like Wall street doing less well, and didn't enjoy seeing a loss on those investments just to spite Wall Street.

In the end businesses must exist and hire people and sell things to people. If they are all viewed as evil just for doing that, where are we?

The Soviet Union failed so it is hard to argue the government should run everything.