Pass the bill!

[kstewart33]

I've been at DU since 1999 and I've lost count of the hundreds, no thousands of times, when DUers have stood by their mighty principles and cut off their collective noses to spite their face.

And here we go again. It is so tiresome of losing and losing and losing everything because we are not satisfied with the compromises.

So pass the bill. Yes, it stinks in many ways, but it contains real reform for the uninsured, small businesses, and for people with pre-existing conditions. It is a beginning, just as Social Security passage was a beginning in the 1940s though it was riddled with holes.

If DU was around at that time, I'm sure that our boards would be loaded with posters demanding that we kill the Social Security bill because of all the compromising.

The world is not perfect, Congress is the perfect contradiction of perfect, so let's get what we can.

If we do not, we will never get one ounce of reform of health care. I'll take a few pounds that we can get now, and hope for more later.

[still_one]

1. I don't know whether it will pass or not, but they should take out the mandate /nt

[kentuck]

2. DU did not begin until 2001.

??

[alphafemale]

6. Well...that depends on who you ask

:hi:

[kstewart33]

52. Oops - I've been a member since 2001 (9 years instead of 11). My bad. nt

[IndianaGreen]

3. Kill the bill to atone for passing NAFTA, DADT, DOMA, PATRIOT, IWR

or else you will have to atone for this rightwing conservadem monstrosity being passed as a great deal to the American people.

[ellie]

42. Obama didn't have

anything to do with NAFTA, DADT or DOMA. That was that asshole Clinton. Please tell me IG, what Obama had to do with NAFTA, DADT or DOMA.

[kstewart33]

54. Now that's using your noggin.

Proving my point, exactly.

[lapfog_1]

4. REad the final bill, carefully, and tell me why we need this.

Not what people here are spinning, not what the President spun in his radio address, but the actual bill.

[CitizenLeft]

7. I'll give you 3 reasons:

1. diabetes
2. hypertension
3. bleeding fibroids

Those are three reasons why I can't get health care coverage. Any one of those things, if they continue to go untreated, will cause my death.

Yeah. I know. Who gives a fuck. Kill the bill.

[babylonsister]

8. Yes. Not letting pre-existing conditions factor into health care is

one of my main reasons for supporting this, too.

And I give a fuck. :hug:

[CitizenLeft]

11. thank you.

:hug: back

People who continue to discount this one HUGE change in the system are dismissing the lives of those who will depend upon it. FIX THE BILL LATER and let me go to a doctor, for Chrissakes. Free clinics help, but only if you can wait 2 months for an appointment. But they can't give me hospitalization when any one of those conditions goes haywire.

I'm getting really pissed off at some of the people here who I once respected and thought of as true progressives who care about INDIVIDUAL lives. Apparently my life isn't worth getting this bill passed. Mine, and the millions of others who have similar problems.

Thank you for taking all the punches for people like me who haven't been speaking up. Been to angry to speak up.

[lapfog_1]

9. I haven't had insurance for 14 years... I have WPW and you are

very likely to outlive me.

But this doesn't help, and if your over 50 and unemployed (like I am), single with no children (as I am), it's impossible to get my right testicle (which hurts all the time now) looked at. I don't qualify for Medicaid, and even if I could, they won't give me an MRI.

This bill should be killed.

A different one should be passed via reconciliation.

[CitizenLeft]

13. I am 50 years old, and only employed since Feb.

I'm also single with no children. I don't qualify for Medicaid.

This bill should be PASSED so that it can be fixed later.

And of course it can be fixed in reconciliation. Killing THIS bill will guarantee NO BILL. At all. Period. It took 6 months for the Senate to get to this point. Do you seriously believe that the perfect bill that we ALL want can be done next year? Seriously? After this?

You may be willing to bet your life on it, but how about not betting mine?

[brentspeak]

16. Can you afford $1000-$2000 per month premiums?

And then do you have a spare $6000 or so for the deductible?

That would be your new health insurance policy for you. Be careful of what you wish for.

[CitizenLeft]

22. your concern for my well-being...

...is duly noted.

[lapfog_1]

17. Who said I was going to ask for a "perfect" bill.

They could pass (via reconciliation) one of two things.

Buy everyone who is uninsured (like you and me) a subsidized health care insurance policy. But not a mandate.

Pay for it out of the general fund. Roll back the Reagan tax cuts to pay for on those making over $200K a year.

Or, they can lower the age for Medicare to 50 or 55 with a revenue neutral buyin. For those that can't pay, see part 1. That would cost waaaay less.

Then we fix it later.

Neither creates a new program (one essentially expands Medicaid, the other expands Medicare)... all the rest is budget.

Then we come back next year or the year after and start over with a real public option... or, Medicare for all.

Once people see that Medicare for 50+ is working just fine and not bankrupting the system... Medicare for all should be easy.

And they CAN do it right now, without all the baggage of abortion restrictions and needing Joe Lieberman and everything else that's happened.

[CitizenLeft]

18. reconciliation, or in conference.

Or by amendments later. There are numerous ways to fix it. Get what we can get done NOW. Fix it later. Why isn't that acceptable?

Btw, I had to look up WPW. I'm sorry you're suffering from that, it sounds, on the surface, similar to congestive heart failure, which I know a lot about.

[IndianaGreen]

21. According to the deal struck between Reid and Nelson, the House won't be able to fix it

only very minor modification will be allowed.

[CitizenLeft]

23. then fix it by amendment later.

Why does getting rid of pre-existing conditions for millions of people - millions - so unimportant? It must be unimportant, because no one who is screaming KILL THE BILL! can answer me WHAT THE FUCK are people supposed to do while we wait for you to get what you want?

[lapfog_1]

32. Pass SOMETHING else via reconciliation.

The amendment you speak of cannot be done via reconciliation, and any such amendment won't pass the Senate in regular business.

The only sure things that can be done via reconciliation are budget things.

So, we can add or subtract new revenue (the Bush tax cuts were passed via... drumroll... reconciliation!!!). And we can add or subtract new spending from existing programs.

So... kill this bill, and pass Medicare and Medicaid extensions, and pass a new income tax bracket to pay for it.

Medicare for anyone 50 (or 55) and older. Medicaid for anyone that would have gotten a subsidy under the bill in the Senate. Pre-existing conditions... solved. No mandates. Fine. No Public Option either.

Easy bill to craft. Easy for the public to understand. Right thing to do morally. And once done and people see that it didn't bankrupt the system and that the people now covered are relatively happy... go back for Medicare for Everyone. Single Payer.

I would think that every progressive / liberal / Democrat in the nation would be in favor of this. It's simple, it will work and we can tell Nelson and Lieberman to pound sand.

Harry Reid might just get himself re-elected to the Senate. President Obama's approval rating would go back to February levels (well, it would if he could come up with a better solution to Afghanistan).

What's not to like?

[CitizenLeft]

36. OF COURSE I'M IN FAVOR OF EXPANDING MEDICARE!

AND Medicaid! IT WON'T PASS! You SAW what happened, Bernie Sanders had to withdraw the amendment!

My God, why won't people accept this?

*gone*

[lapfog_1]

50. First off, Bernie went for the whole enchilada in one swoop.

He didn't need to expand Medicaid because Medicare for all obviates the need for Medicaid.

Apparently, before Holy Joe got into it, there was a deal in the DEMOCRATIC caucus to pass Medicare expansion.

There is currently a deal (even in the current Senate bill with now 60 supporters) a deal to cover the uninsured.
(and yes, with a mandate).

My guess is that the insurance companies WANT the mandate because they know that significant portion of the uninsured can't pay for the premiums that they currently charge. Very few people, with the means to do so, voluntarily go without insurance. So the uninsured are currently made up of two classes (with overlaps of course). The un insurable (pre-existing condition) and the too poor. There is actually a third class... the young adults who are healthy and not poor.

The insurance companies don't want the pre-existing folks. Not at all, even if subsidized.

They DO want the too poor IF the government will pay for them.

As for the young and healthy, yeah they want them too (low cost high margin). But there aren't that many that don't have insurance via some other mechanism (unless they are poor too, but then see above).

So... we expand Medicare to cover 55 and up ( the caucus except for Joe was happy with this, therefore this could get 50+ votes to pass via reconciliation).

We expand Medicaid to cover those with pre-existing conditions who are under 55. The insurance lobby won't fight this, they don't want those people anyway.

The rest we could pass a subsidy program with strong support to GIVE the insurance company a ton of money and a group of otherwise healthy people who happen to be poor. They would love that. Their pool of insured just got "healthier" and, therefor, less costly per person, and, therefore, much more profitable. I bet they would even pressure the repukes to sign up to pass this.

The first two parts go through reconciliation, along with the income tax increase to make it revenue neutral.

The last piece goes along with some sort of "patience bill of rights" via regular business, but other than that we stay out of regulating private insurance (no "govmint run health care").

The "regular" folks would like it because:

1. They understand, and like, Medicare. So expanding that to just some MORE old people (anyone over 50 is old to the 30 and 40 somethings) is a no big deal.

2. Covering the very poor with pre-existing conditions and getting them Medicaid will sound like it's the moral thing to do. And, of course, it really is. (edit to fix wording)

3. Giving the private insurance companies money to cover the rest of the uninsured (healthy and poor), will sound like a win to everyone, besides, the insurance companies would love it so no more astroturf town hall bullshit. (edit to say what I meant to say... healthy and poor!)


After a few years of this, people see that Medicare is doing fine, Obama is in his second term with a high popularity, and the Dems are in solid control of the Senate and House (remember just a few months ago when we talked about the repukes as being a small regional party???), THEN we push "Medicare for all" and kill off the insurance companies. They will fight like hell over that, but by then, maybe Joementum is gone and replaced by Ned Lamont.

It's not a big gamble. And it avoids this travesty of a bill. And we don't have to phase it in over 4 years. We could pass it and have it effective March 1, 2010. Big benefit to the Dems for the midterms.

[BklnDem75]

28. Reid heads the House, too?

Do you have a link to this deal?

[IndianaGreen]

30. Ben Nelson was on CNN and described the deal

during a press conference that ended within the last half hour.

[BklnDem75]

41. Here's an article

A holdout no more, Sen. Ben Nelson agreed Saturday to provide the 60th and deciding vote for Senate passage of sweeping health care legislation, capping a year of struggle and a final burst of deadline bargaining.

Nelson, D-Neb., said he made his decision after winning fresh concessions to limit the availability of abortions in insurance sold in newly created exchanges, as well as tens of million in federal Medicaid funds for his home state.

"I know this is hard for some of my colleagues to accept and I appreciate their right to disagree. But I would not have voted for this bill without these provisions," he said at a news conference in the Capitol.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul


Show me the part that supports your claims. Just the facts please.

[lapfog_1]

35. No, but Reid controls who goes to the House / Senate Conference

to hammer out a joint bill.

And he can instruct those people (or go himself) to not take out anything Ben Nelson asked to be put in... and, in fact, can force the conference bill to be very, very close to the current Senate bill.

Then Nancy has to go back and sell it to her house members. But they are all lining up behind the DLC plan at this point, even Wiener and probably Grayson as well. In any event, the House margin is larger than the Senate margin so it will have to look more like the Senate version to make it through final approvals.

[BklnDem75]

37. Are you sure you left out the e in lapfog?

You're doing serious leaps here. I'm asking for facts. Do you have them?

[lapfog_1]

44. What part of "can" didn't you understand.

The only statement of fact that I made was "Reid controls who goes to the House / Senate conference".

I'm happy with that assertion.

All the rest was explaining HOW Reid could get a bill out of conference that is to Mr. Nelson and Mr. Leiberman's liking.

And, right now, Nelson is saying that there will be a final bill to his liking.

[BklnDem75]

48. I did ask for facts.

You gave an unlikely scenario.

[lapfog_1]

53. Actually, it's almost certain.

What's unlikely about it?

Once this current bill in the Senate passes two votes (one to break filibuster and a second to pass it), it goes to conference with the House bill already passed.

The combined bill has to go back to both Houses. In the House, simple majority on one vote. In the Senate (unless there are weird shenanigans) it will have to break filibuster AGAIN and then pass by majority. So Lieberman and Nelson (and, for that matter Landrieux - she was the first extort the Senate for this) will have another opportunity to screw the Dems again. If the bill changes too much from it's current Senate form, I'm guessing that's EXACTLY what they will do.

The real question is "Are they honest gangsters" i.e. once bought will they stay bought. I'm guessing yes, and this bill then goes to the President... and we have a signing ceremony and then... three or four years from now, everyone will discover just how bad this piece of crap legislation really is. There will be calls then to junk it. But it is the nature of such things... people would rather tweak than replace. So someone will suggest some fixes here and there.

And this is all speculation. But it's pretty well informed speculation.

[lapfog_1]

26. Trips to the ER every so often to get a "reboot"

heart races to 300+ beats per minute.

Blood pressure drops to 60/40 (technically, I should be passed out and near death, but I can stand up and walk short distances if I do it slowly). They ALWAYS treat me for shock (which I'm not in), elevated feet in the bed, an a full out IV saline "drip" (more like river). After they reboot my heart (shock paddles or a cool drug called Idenocine) I have to go pee like a racehorse (from the IV). My kidneys HURT. I have to drag the IV stand with me because I refuse to use a bedpan... and it feels like all I'm doing is filtering the saline from the bag into the urinal.

It will kill me someday (won't be near enough to an ER)... and the beta blockers I was taking years ago don't do squat anymore.

But if not that, then this new thing with my right testicle will turn out to be cancer and I'll die of that.

That's OK. Been here 52 years now. Wasn't supposed to be here at all. When I was born (with this condition) the doctors told my mom that I was dead. Somebody put me in an oxygen tent anyway. Got to do a lot of stuff. Made some good friends. Helped out those that I could. Accomplished a great deal in my field of expertise. Wish I could have traveled the world more. Always wanted to see the Pyramids. Who knows, maybe there is still time.

And, yeah, from all of the problems, my heart is enlarged (about 30% larger than normal). And I have to be careful when I go to the dentist (have to take some form of penicillin before every procedure as the blood vessels to your teeth are directly connected to your heart and do not go to the liver first for filtration, cleaning teeth releases a lot of bacteria into those blood vessels).

But enough about me.

The President needs a win on health care. Once he gets one, nobody is going to do anything on health care for years. So we need to kill this one and substitute something like my plan via reconciliation. The repukes have used reconciliation some 28 times since the days of Ronald Reagan. We can use it ONCE.

BTW, have you seen (or heard about) the abortion restrictions that Nelson got in this morning.

Read it and tell me that's what we need to do to abortion rights. We might as well have elected McCain and let HIM appoint someone to the SCOTUS and have Roe v. Wade overturned now. Well, not really. But it sure stinks.

[CitizenLeft]

34. I can't read it right now, I have to go in to work. I'll read it tonight.

But from what I understand - which, admittedly, is filtered since I can't read the bill right now - the Hyde amendment never allowed federal funding for abortions in the first place. This bill - if they described it correctly - does not prohibit personal payment for abortions. They also said that there is a question about federal funding crossing over into private funds to allow it through a back door - and that happens now, though I'm no expert on abortions, and don't profess to be (just read this: some states have gotten around Medicaid by allocating state funds outside of it). Listening right now: two separate payments for abortion and non-abortion treatments. Does NOT say that abortions are prohibited, only prohibited by federal funding, which is how it's been all along, if how I've heard it explained is correct.

On "private funding" for abortions: I understand full well that that means women who can't afford abortions will go without. That's wrong, and yes, I want that to be fixed just like almost everyone here. But now you're weighing things on a scale: are the rights of women who can't afford abortions to get an abortion with federal funding of greater concern than the actual lives of people suffering now with conditions - yes - like yours? Whose right is it make that determination, the people on this board screaming to kill the bill? Is my diabetes less important than that abortion? Yes, I know about hangers - I of course support choice. Are the number of women unable to get abortions greater than the number of people with diabetes? Or with cancer? Or with heart conditions?

I don't have time to respond.

I wish you well with your condition and hope that you're able to get the care you need with or without this bill.

[lapfog_1]

38. Worse than that.

nobody every thinks they will need an abortion. So why would anyone do a purchase of a rider to cover it. And send in separate checks every month to pay for it. So, basically, no insurance for abortions.

Second, states can "opt out" of ALLOWING insurance companies operating in their states that accept the federal subsidies (and you know that will be ALL of them) from even offering abortion coverage.

So, if you live in a knuckle-dragger state... you might not be able to purchase abortion insurance with your own money.

If you live in the rest of the country, you, as a woman, have to go buy an insurance "rider" that will pay for abortion services, and then you have to remember to write two checks every month, one for your regular policy and one for abortion.

Isn't that just peachy!

[kstewart33]

60. Reconciliation won't work.

Too many technicalities, and the top problem is that the Senate parlimentarian would likely strip the bill of its major facets, according to those who know something about Senate procedures.

[nevergiveup]

10. If there is any chance this bill will help you get coverage

then it should be passed. Bernie Sanders said this bill, although not anyway near what he wanted, would help many people and he hinted he would support it. It really is a no brainer.

[lapfog_1]

12. You all are falling for what they want.

you don't care what it costs, or even if it really will cover 30 million uninsured.

And you don't care about the financial hardship that's about to come from this bill.

Not to mention the loss (further erosion) of womens reproductive rights.

More people will get covered and it's paid for by the never ending "taxpayer" dollars. Never mind the transfer of even more wealth from what's left of the middle class to the banksters and insurance gangsters.

Those poor people got to have health care!

Well, I'm one of those poor people without insurance. And I want (and we can get) something better. And we can have it now.

[babylonsister]

25. OK, please explain how we can get something better and get

it now.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Most of the poor are going to be covered by an expansion of Medicaid.

I love how unemployed and broke people with health problems here think they're going to be getting treatment at lovely private clinics now. You're gonna get Medicaid.

[Joe Bacon]

59. Not after Ben Nelson cut Medicaid benefits.

But I am just so sure that the needy will be able to turn to churches to get the health care they need. :sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

65. Did he succeed in that? I've been trying to find out.

Was he really able to insert a provision to let states opt out of the Medicaid expansion?

[CitizenLeft]

24. thank you.

Truly, a no-brainer. Fix it (a) via reconciliation, (b) in committee, (c) or by amendment later. Simple as that.

But I guess "later" won't work, will it? Because all the people who want to kill the bill will refuse to vote for Democrats next year, absolutely guaranteeing that it'll never be fixed.

[HughMoran]

39. I support you

& I'm so god damned selfish myself, I support saving $20k/year for me and my small company that is barely surviving this Great Recession. But who gives a fuck about us DUers who actually live in the non-ideal world of real people (who will benefit from this bill)?

[Joe Bacon]

56. I have diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis

and I oppose this bill because it WILL bankrupt me.

It WILL allow insurance company beancounters to continue denying me care I need.

It WILL bankrupt me sooner than my parents were bankrupted under the current system.

What Obama and his gang of 5 are saying to me is "When you get sick, just die quickly. The Health Insurance racketeers need to buy more mansions.

[kstewart33]

58. This bill will pass. It has to. There are millions of Americans

stuck in this hellish situation, which is infuriating.

Bless you.

[jefferson_dem]

5. Word.

:kick: and :thumbsup:

[salguine]

14. Kill the bill! It's a pile of shit that's worse than doing nothing at all. It's no more than

protection money extorted on behalf of the insurance cartels. It's crap insurance that I'll never even be able to use because of the outrageous deductibles and co-pays. Yet I'm forced to pay for it anyway. Why should I pay for insurance that I can't use? I can't afford it.

[yourout]

15. Piss on the bill.

They really don't get it.

Signing a bill with a mandate and without a public option or medicare by in is signing you own death sentence.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. Yeah, well I've been on DU since 1954...

DU didn't start untl 2001

[QC]

20. DU wasn't around in 1999.

You joined right before I did, and I joined in 2001.

[Better Believe It]

27. And I've been at DU since 1939 before the internet! I have more seniority therefore

what I write is as good as gold!

[QC]

40. I joined back during the blizzard of 19-ought-6.

I was trapped in my prospector's cabin with nothing to do and so I turned to DU and have been here ever since.

[Better Believe It]

49. I remember that!

I remember really bad blizzards when I was a kid going to school. I had to shovel snow all the way to school for ten miles without a shovel (couldn't afford one)with an icicle hanging down one foot off the end of my nose.

Kids got it so easy today.

[tranche]

57. Why are you attacking a long time DU member?

On something so petty as stating when he joined? Is this what you do with your life?

[kstewart33]

63. Note my correction above. And why are they attacking on this point?

Because they have nothing else to talk about on this issue, other than 'kill the bill!'

[JVS]

70. I was at DU before the development of parliamentary democracy! Oh how the battles between...

Clark and Dean supporters, or even Obama and Clinton supporters pale in comparison to the Yorkists and the Lancastrians. Sometimes thing would get so heated that Skinner would have to put the board on level 5 because the pigeons couldn't keep up with the traffic.

[Loge23]

29. Keep your crumbs

We get the crumbs off the table and we should be grateful?
After single-payer - public option - watered-down public option - medicare buy-in --- it's now down to no denial for (some) pre-existing conditions, along with a unhealthy gutting of women's reproductive rights; and I should be grateful for this piece of garbage?
I should be grateful that I live in a country that is governed by a dysfunctional corporate -controlled legislature with a stick figure for President - that I supported?
I should be grateful that I pay $468/mo for crap coverage?
Well, count me out.
This country totally sucks. And it's partly because people will gratefully accept whatever freakin' crumbs we get.

[old mark]

31. It will pass, and we will see what happens with it. Sadly, on reflection after

my anger died eown to despair, I really believe this is the best we could get....everything else was just salesmanship.

A note on Nelson: he evidently got many millions of dollars for his state written into the bill, then said he would vote for it.

mark

[Blasphemer]

33. They will pass it regardless of what anyone here thinks so you have nothing to complain about

Anyone here who cares to yell and scream about Democrats not voting next November can go jump off a cliff.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Well put. The right-wing democrats sorely mis-judge the liberal base.

We're out of your CAMP. We need to TAKE OUR PARTY back from the right-wing democrats.

Even if it costs us a generation, I will NOT EVER again vote for a "Right-wing corporate democrat." That includes Blue Dogs, New Way, DLC and "moderates" (who are truly corporatists).

[kstewart33]

73. So you're taking your ball and going home?

Now that's grown-up!

[treestar]

43. Rec

DU started because of Chimpy's first election, so it is always in victim mode. This is ridiculous. All legislation requires compromise.

[goclark]

66. Thank you for your words

If not, we sound like Republicans, mean spirited and negative.

[ShortnFiery]

45. Fuck this Kabuki Theater - KILL IT!!!

[AuntPatsy]

47. No, not yet, this should NOT be passed until "we" the people, the ones

who supposedly will benefit from this bill have a chance to read through it..

Ask yourself...

Why is it that we are not given the full version of the "FINAL BILL" the real one that seems to be getting passed right at this moment?

Have you read it through? If not, then we cannot in all good conscience vote on something that we are not even aware of says..

I have a feeling, a bad one, that when we do get to read it. IT will be too late..

I have no problem with passing a bill but I have a problem with signing things until I have read all the fine print through and so should you.

[freddie mertz]

55. Not this time. One lie too many.

This bill, and this version of the Dem party, is the last straw for me.

[tranche]

62. Last straw for you?

You've managed 1643 disruptive posts since March and now this is the last straw? That it was the last straw 1200 posts ago.

[freddie mertz]

64. Thanks for keeping count.

[Jakes Progress]

61. Whatever you do, don't stand by your principles.

Is that our new mantra?

[Odin2005]

67. KILL THIS FASCIST POS BILL!!!

[democrat2thecore]

68. Weakest Presidential Leadership on a Major Legislative Agenda In My 50 Years - nt

[kstewart33]

72. You bet. Now pass the bill.

[JVS]

69. "I've been at DU since 1999" Way to start with a big old falsehood

[kstewart33]

71. What a cheap shot. You can and should do better than that.

Unless you have nothing of more intellectual value to offer.

Note my correction above. I've been here 9 years instead of 11.

[Wardoc]

74. Assume the bill never improves or gets worse. Is this, at this point and time, positive territory?

I don't think so, not at all.

[depakid]

75. "The world is not perfect!" LOL- a meme for repeated FAILURE

For all the rationalizers celebrating "victory" out there- take note: this bill in its present form will be a "gift that keeps on giving."

And the public is going to place the blame squarely on Democrats- not only on the national- but also on the state and local levels.

[treestar]

76. I feel bad for anyone who works for you

Perfection or bust! Failure! No excuses!