As one of the president most vocal critics I saw and listened.

[styersc]

So, okay, let's go. I thnk we swell behind the president and give his proposals support for the good of our nation. We will right the boat and when we are steadied, we can fight about particulars, but for the present, this critic will carry his weight. (For those of you who may have seen me, you know that "carry my weight" thing is quite the sacrifice.)

We have to start at the precinct level. If you know a local candidate, work for him or her. If you don't have one, consider running. One thing we need as Democrats is a deeper bench. Lets get this done from the bottom up.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. Good Advice.

[SadPanda]

2. Exactly

I imagine the thought of a President Perry or a President Romney. Really? If DU doesn't jump behind Obama soon I'll seriously need to wonder about DU's continued existence.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SadPanda]

7. I remember what DU was like from 2002 until january of 2009....

I'm saddened by what has happened. Fact is that there are hundreds of troll accounts constantly spamming negative Obama material. There is very little difference between what is posted here and what is posted on dozens of far right wing websites. Actually, the only difference is the overt racism posted on the Republican websites. For me, it is very depressing. I read the posts on Republican websites, tearing Obama apart, attacking his beliefs, his wife, and even his children.

Then I come on DU and read thread after thread attacking Obama's decisions.

What exactly is the point?

Is the progressive community going to stand by while America elects Rick Perry (R-TX)?????????????????????????????????

[patrice]

9. Like I said, I coult take it if it were rational, but there are these absolutely WILD leaps in logic

and no one seems to care.

HUGE generalizations.
Extremely obvious mischaracterizations.
Absolute predictions based on very little info.
Statements that amount to "This has not happened, therefore it WILL NOT happen."
Hot button word choices.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
Extreme oversimplifications.

All traits of Tea Thugs.

I have been trying to deal with it fairly, because I believe in rational analysis that weighs the good and the bad in a President, but this stuff is so out of balance here. The people involved in it never ever weigh point for point, positives and negatives. It looks for all of the world like fascism calling itself "the Left" and doesn't even seem to be slightly aware, nay indeed many are proud of the label, "the Professional Left" not recognizing that kind of cognitive bias as being the same thing as "the Professional Right", just on the other end of the spectrum.

I mean, it just doesn't make any kind of sense and I think that flap over the EPA smog regs pretty much proved that fact.

[ClassWarrior]

39. Yeah, the disruptors are working both sides, aren't they?

NGU.

[druidity33]

42. Obama has been terrible

for the Environment and Civil Liberties. Not to mention on Financial Reform.

The "flap" over the EPA smog regs was warranted as is the "flap" over the Tar Sands project. I don't know what "fact" you think the "flap" proved about the Professional Left, but my opinions haven't changed since Obama was elected, his have.

:shrug:

[humbled_opinion]

11. Your so right, I mean they really make shit up like ....

When Obama said this tonight....

"But here’s the truth. Millions of Americans rely on Medicare in their retirement. And millions more will do so in the future. They pay for this benefit during their working years. They earn it. But with an aging population and rising health care costs, we are spending too fast to sustain the program. And if we don’t gradually reform the system while protecting current beneficiaries, it won’t be there when future retirees need it. We have to reform Medicare to strengthen it. "

WOW isn't that amazing how people can make this shit up.... Obama really doesn't mean he is going to allow anyone to reform Medicare, right this was just political theater...

Either you support the social compact with the American people or you don't and I am sorry to report we have a President that seems intent on bending to the Privitization fools. You can follow him if you want to but I suggest you get informed about what you are actually supporting, before you jump in with both feet.

[patrice]

12. So you think 100% of Medicare funds are spent 100% effectively on the needs of those in its care.

wow.

[patrice]

17. Speaking of jumping in with both feet. nt

[ThomCat]

23. Medicare has always, consistently been more efficient than

ANY private insurance plan.

It has also been cut so many times that it is already reimbursing at a rate far below the market rate. Many doctors are already refusing to take patients who are on Medicare because of the low reimbursement amounts. So if they cut costs any more, and it cuts those reimbursement amounts any more, it is only going to result in patients being dropped by our doctors and being unable to find new ones.

The times when any fraud has been found, it is because corporate medical providers are defrauding medicare with fake billing. They get away with it because medicare has been cut so much that they don't have enough professional auditors left to catch them. Shady medical corporations are taking advantage of this. The solution isn't to cut medicare more, but to give medicare the money to hire back the professional Auditors to review billing and pursue shady billing claims.

If you really had any honest interest in cutting government wasteful spending you would be insisting that they send their cost cutters over to the Pentagon. Their auditors routinely can't identify where up to half of their money is going, and simply sign off of budgets because generals tell them to.

They also have systems in play, like one that automatically pay vendors without a cost review or delays if they bill for more than 2 millions dollars, so vendors pad their bills so that, even if the military is only ordering one bolt, they always bill for at least 2 million dollars.

Cutting that kind of military waste could save us enough money to pay for the entire rest of the government.

[patrice]

25. Physicians for a National Health Program: HR 676 Expanded & Improved Medicare for All Act

Please read Title II > Subtitle A - Budgeting and Payments

http://www.pnhp.org/sites/default/files/docs/2011/HR676-Feb-11-2011.pdf

[patrice]

26. What on Earth did I say that makes you assume I'd be against strong cuts to military budgets.

If you really cared about ______________________, you wouldn't go around creating opposition for your case by saying things like "If you really had any honest interest in cutting government wasteful spending . . . ."

I haven't said anything that gives you justification for assuming that I'd be against cutting the Pentagon's budget. It is possible to be for both Medicare reform and "Defense" spending reform.

Since I have given you no grounds for making such negative remarks about my honesty, it's is necessary to doubt your motive in doing so.

It appears that creating enmity is more important to you than creating common cause for your position.

At least I will grant that is not an absolute, but is instead only a possibility, which is more than I can say of your faculties for rational judgement as you demonstrate them in your assumptions about me.

[ThomCat]

28. What is your problem?

I mentioned the military because it is the better place to look, not because you ever said anything about it.

Yes, if you really have an interest in finding where the waste and fraud is, go look there. How is that so hard to understand?

I wasn't questioning your honesty. Though I do wonder why you are attacking Medicare, and posting useless hyperbole like "So you think 100% of Medicare funds are spent 100% effectively.." as a way of attacking others. Everyone knows that no system is ever 100% effective, or ever can be.

You're calling me out for creating emnity? I didn't say anything hostile to you. I simply pointed you to a better example. If you have a problem with that, you have serious problems.

Go spam someone else with your oh so many replies. :eyes:

[SwampG8r]

29. huge medicare fraud bust here

just the other day like a quarter billion dollars in false billings
miami area
one bust in one area of a big state
if we do the math we can easily see where there is need to reform some aspects of social security and medicare
at this point they have been tied to the deficit so they will be reformed
the question now is who will reform it?

[druidity33]

33. WOW... a whole quarter billion!

That's as much as, oh, i don't know 1 weeks worth of contractor pay in Iraq... you know, the war we ended a couple of years ago?

SS and Medicare do not need benefits reform. SS is solvent until 2037 (actually, it isn't anymore, not since the payroll tax debacle... i think 2033 is the newest CBO estimate) and all Medicare needs is to be expanded to include a much larger pool, ie. Medicare-for-all for it to be not only solvent but self-sustaining.

Why let the corporacrats even touch these programs?

:shrug:

[SwampG8r]

38. the corps are the worst ones

its much harder for a solo dr to hide fraud while a huge hmo or insurance group can do it routinely because of volume

[ClassWarrior]

40. Tell me any program that is 100% perfect. Sorry, strawman.

NGU.

[patrice]

14. I have at least as much rational grounds for what I think as you do for what you think. The differen

ce between us is that I recognize that BUT you think you comprehend enough about the entire highly, practically infinitely, complex situation, let alone all of the knowledge, understanding and thoughts and every possible permutation thereof of Barack Obama, someone you do not know even in the slightest personally, to make an absolute judgement about our situation and him on nothing more than what you think you know, which isn't very damn much.

If it is so possible for someone to know so completely and absolutely that a stranger, e.g. Obama, is a liar, why is it not also therefore logical for me to know that you too are a liar?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

16. Please tell me what grounds I have to believe you, a person not even using their own name, over

someone else who does and who has a great deal more to lose from lying, compared to someone who is nothing but digits on the internet.

[patrice]

19. As it happens, I do know something about the reform movement inside of Medicare, having worked

inside of that movement for 3 years in my last job.

[karynnj]

31. No he doesn't bend to the privitazation fools

Privatization of SS means setting up individual accounts that can be invested in the free market. Privatization of Medicare would be something on the lines of the Paul Ryan idea of giving vouchers to buy individual insurance. (The Medicare advantage program is quasi privatization - it was passed under Bush and the Affordable Healthcare Act constrained the amount of money that the private companies could get - a move ultimately AGAINST privatization.

Nothing that Obama ever said suggests that he thinks privatization is a good idea. My take on what he has said is that they need to bend the cost curve on medical costs - likely in Medicare, Medicaid and through the exchanges in other health care polices. Consider who Obama picked to head Medicare - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=768145&mesg_id=768145

[humbled_opinion]

35. I think the operative words are

"Your take" isn't it a serious shame that there have been so many different takes on what he has said and what he has done.

I would never believe that a Democratic President would ever even consider privatization but with this guy, I can't be sure and that is my "take" on what he said.

Shame really is.

[karynnj]

37. I said my take as the Obama recommendation is not specific in the speech

but, as I explained nothing in anything I have ever read he said suggests he is for privatization.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

8. P.S. I don't mind people who disagree AND make sense, but that's not what's going on here. That EPA

flap over smog regs is a perfect example of people raging on and on, calling for impeachment and such and not demonstrating even slightly that they know and understand any of the actual facts of the situation.

[demwing]

24. Ok, I just want to point out that in an effort to keep things "civil"

you hijacked a very civil OP

[patrice]

27. You are right. My sincere apologies to all for reacting to nonsense. nt

[ClassWarrior]

41. I have to laugh at comments like yours. Saying how disruptive others are, all the while doing the...

...same damn thing. So how are all your snide insinuations helpful to the President?

NGU.

[teddy51]

3. One thing is for certain, if not President Obama or a Primary challenger...

Who then? If anyone watched the stage of stooges last nite, all I can say is ugh... We are fucked.

[nolabear]

4. Finally! A call to action instead of just rage. Thank you.

We work for the locals anyway but thank you for giving this program a chance. We'll see where it goes once we do but I just can't see where doing nothing and shooting from the sidelines is going to get us anywhere. Well, we'll get somewhere but I don't want to think about it.

[INdemo]

5. The talk about losing union support a week ago well tonight I the President just got it back

It is time to get behind this President and as I was one of his biggest critics I was very impressed with President Obama tonight..I am ready to get behind him and our local candidates and district candidates. Finally the Perry's and the Mitts and the Koch bros can take their Teabaggers as kiss our grassroots.

[jimlup]

10. I'm on board as well...

Less enthusiastic and more skeptical for wear but we have to keep up the fight and Obama must be re-elected and given a democratic congress and support now is the path towards that end.

[angee_is_mad]

13. Thank you for

being constructive.

[efhmc]

18. Am in Texas and am a precinct chair. We need

candidates. Any suggestions?

[ThomCat]

20. Which proposals do you think need all of our support?

Cutting medicare and social security?

Cutting payroll taxes, so that we undermine medicare and social security? (which depend on payroll taxes)

Do we really hate seniors and people with disabilities That Much? :(

Three (count 'em, three) new Free Trade Agreements to suck more jobs out of the country, lower wages on the remaining jobs, and take away even the vaguest idea of ever having benefits?

Free Trade Agreements are very likely to crash the economies of those other nations, and risk crashing the world economy, like what happened in Mexico when NAFTA was passed, which would force us to pay through the nose to keep South Korea, Panama and Columbia from crashing and burning. If history repeats itself with even one of those countries, could our national economy afford that again? What about if it happens to all three?

Obama talked about jobs that need to be created, rebuilding our infrastructure, but he's not specifically targeting companies that do that in any way from anything he said. He's creating general tax rebates. He's claiming that they're aimed at any/all small businesses. That means that if people are hired, people will be where those businesses want them to be, not where Obama says the US needs them to be.

What's going to get anyone put to work fixing US infrastructure unless the US government hires companies to do it? He didn't say anything about anything like that happening.

If history is any indicator, and it usually is, big corporations will have no problem getting access to all the benefits that are supposed to reserved for small businesses. So expect General Electric, Citibank, and other big names to be the big recipients of these "small business" incentives. That would mean, instead of rebuilding schools, people will be getting new temp jobs doing administrative work in offices. Don't expect to get more than minimum wage either.

Unless there's a miracle, expect, at best, that this will be the biggest creator of minimum wage temp jobs ever.

[styersc]

21. I think I will approach the president's proposals with no claws out.

Let see wbat it is and what we can best make of it.

Key, in order to influence policy in the progressive direct, is to organize and elect on the local level.

[ThomCat]

22. We don't have any power to make anything positive of these

republican proposals to destroy medicare and social security, and funnel money to corporations through more tax cuts. This will all be done by the federal government, and they don't listen to us. Obama is well known for listening to everyone except his base.

I agree that we need to get progressives elected in local elections. But I don't think it will have any effect on national policy. Obama doesn't listen to progressive politicians. Look at the Health Care debacle for example. He kept making concessions to the republicans and the conservative dems, but he barred the members of the progressive caucus from even getting information about what was happening in the closed door sessions. They had to find out from the media.

Electing progressives will help us get some progressive voices out there in the state and federal governments, but don't expect Obama to listen to them. He only listens to people to his right.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

32. Wrong on all counts. The Congressional Black Caucus & Congressional Progressive Caucus statements ->

From the Congressional Black Caucus:

"We are especially pleased about the synergy between the proposal presented by us and the proposal he submitted to Congress for consideration this evening. President Obama presented a bipartisan solution–something we can all support regardless of political affiliation."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x76802

You made this accusation without a shred of proof: "Obama is well known for listening to everyone except his base... Electing progressives will help us get some progressive voices out there in the state and federal governments, but don't expect Obama to listen to them. He only listens to people to his right." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=767327&mesg_id=767594

Notice the word "synergy" in the statement above. Contrary to your false claims, President Obama listened to the Congressional Black Caucus.

Here's further proof that your claims are false:

Congressional Progressive Caucus co-chairs Reps. Raúl M. Grijalva and Keith Ellison today released the following statement on the president’s jobs speech:

“The President has delivered a good start for putting Americans back to work that includes elements we as progressives have been calling for.

Read all about it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x768102

Get a clue.

[FrenchieCat]

36. I just donated to someone running for City Welfare Commissioner....

Plus, I said a simple thank you in this thread without snark,
and it apparently got washed away into a sub-deleted thread....:wtf: