**Reminder: Axelrod and Dean on "Meet the Press" Sunday Morning!**

[Clio the Leo]

A good time will be had by all! ;)

[MadBadger]

1. I hope Dean beats the shit out of AxelFRAUD with a big wooden bat!!

[debbierlus]

2. Let's get ready to rummmmmmmmmmmmble!

[debbierlus]

3. Subtle tactic

Hilarious!

[Clio the Leo]

5. I've been waiting for JUST the right moment to do this....

.... you know, Howard Dean and Barack Obama really aren't all that different. They both love their country, they are both charismatic figures within the Democratic party and they are both very passionate about health reform.

But you know what makes them different? You know the ONE thing Barack Obama would never do? (and David Axelrod for that matter)

Barack Obama would never stand before a crowd of people and SCREAM like a little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDwODbl3muE

Ok ...... I feel better now.

[MadBadger]

6. You waited for the wrong moment than.

Cuz I REALLY love me some Axe

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. And now for the REAL version

The one not leaked by the DLC and manipulated by whore media sound men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQh0BEUlJWY

Doesn't sound quite the same as you were led to believe by your Angry Little Dwarf boss Rahm, does it?

[Jamastiene]

13. Angry Little Dwarf boss Rahm

I love it! Great comeback.

[Jamastiene]

14. Just like your hero

The Bait and Switch.

[girl gone mad]

16. The good doctor Howard Dean spent his career saving lives.

How many people will be killed in the wars our President chose to escalate? What a macho hero! He's no girly-man.

Maybe he can borrow Bush's codpiece for a photo op.

:eyes:

[AllentownJake]

18. No but Barack has no problem getting on his knees for special interest

I'd rather have a guy who screams than a guy who spends most of his time bowing to his overlords.

[vaberella]

21. That's a real bitch thing to say. n/t

[AllentownJake]

22. I'm not the one linking to videos from Youtube four years ago

to discredit a decent man, because I can't beat his assertions.

[Clio the Leo]

25. lol nobody's discrediting your decent man.....

.... it's a joke love.... Gov Dean is a smart guy .... makes some odd choices sometime .... but a little late night internet snark isn't going to change that. ;)

(and plus, he really was screaming like a little girl)

[ClarkUSA]

55. Prove it. Your vitrolic mendacity is very amusing.

:crazy:

[Cha]

58. Pres Obama is out there doing the heavy lifting and all you

have are stupid little cheap shots.

[donco6]

52. WTF? You waited for *this*?

How pathetically sad.

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. We all know Dr. Dean knows how to use a bat

Ah, memories...... :)

[ShortnFiery]

9. +1

:thumbsup:

[Blasphemer]

15. I'd pay good money to see that... nt

[IndianaGreen]

4. I hate MTP, and I can't stand David Gregory

I would rather read about it here.

[w4rma]

7. Awesome! I'm tuning in! Both of them rock! (nt)

[coti]

11. I'm there. Dean needs to straighten him out on the "good start" meme. nt

[Raine]

12. I hope Dean takes Axelrod apart

I'd enjoy that. :applause:

[AllentownJake]

17. They are sending Axelrod to debate Dean

They are getting dumber and dumber by the hour.

[jefferson_dem]

20. I don't think it will be a debate.

Gregory will interview one and then the other.

[AllentownJake]

23. Oh that is a shame

I'd really enjoy watching Howard Dean smacking Axelrod down...shame Russert isn't alive, the video clips of things said in 2008 would destroy Axelrod on it's own.

[Clio the Leo]

27. You're totally off the train huh Jake? NT

[AllentownJake]

29. It really is a shame I actually read the literature before I handed it out to people last year

concerning this issue.

[Clio the Leo]

33. Are you still reading the literature?

That's all I'm asking.

[AllentownJake]

35. The bait and switch pulled here

Is entertaining. The most controversial issue when dealing with voters was mandates and the least controversial was a public option. Funny when you get to congress, it suddenly is reversed.

[Clio the Leo]

37. You REALLY think that?

These people that you worked SO hard for .... you think they were lying to you the whole time?

That may be the saddest thing I hear all day.

[AllentownJake]

40. Yes I do

I think it was convienent of them to slam Hillary over her plan in the primary, not talk too much about the mandates in the general, and than adopt them when they started their real plan.

It's a pattern. One he has faithfully followed on all controversial issues, and the trust factor of his background is how he gets away with it.

[Clio the Leo]

42. Well then what more can I say?

When I suspect that someone all too easily replaces hyperbole with the facts they once knew to be true is when my debating the matter with them becomes a waste of time.

But let me leave you with ONE more rhetorical question .... when he was telling you the words you NOW feel he's gone back on, was it your understanding at the time that he was speaking for EVERY member of the Democratic caucus as well?

[AllentownJake]

43. Everything I typed was fact based

He was against mandates in the primary, the discussion vanished in the literature in the general, and he put up no fight when they were proposed after being elected.

He was in the perfect political position against McCain, McCain couldn't attack the mandates because the President was strongly against them a month earlier.

The fact of the matter is a bait and switch has just occurred. This was not the Health Care plan anyone voted for.

[jefferson_dem]

30. I'm not so sure.

Wouldn't be surprised if both Ax and Dean strike less combative / more conciliatory tones this morning. That would be best for the party anyway. Here's hoping they put reason and principle ahead of bluster.

[AllentownJake]

31. I think

We didn't elect democrats to pass crap, yesterday indicated where Howard's tone will be.

He just raised 100,000 for DFA in 2 days and Moveon.org raised 1,000,000 over 3 days.

To put it in another way, when people are sending you money for standing for a position, you tend to keep it.

Of course, that is how we got into this mess to begin with, with Obama and Congress's corporate donation love.

[dave29]

49. Just for the record Jake

I know we've had some "fun" debating this stuff over the last few weeks, but I had a real dose of uncertainty when Dean came out swinging after the PO was dropped. He was my guy in 2004, Obama was in 2008. It made for a very painful few days, especially since I had just donated what very little cash I could to Obama a few days before the PO was dropped. To turn a phrase I was PO'd about the PO being dropped. Just like everyone else. Dean coming out swinging reminded me of the good old days and my latent desire to see a Democrat "with spine" pushing for what the progressive community wanted. I have a very hard time wrestling with the pragmatic and idealist in me.

I do not think we were duped though. Not by a long stretch. Not that it will matter to anyone reading but all my life I have been an excellent judge of character. It's probably the only thing that has kept me alive since I am pretty awful at most everything else. This is why I enjoy "typing" with you. I can tell you are not tuning me out even if you do not agree with me and even if bitter words are shared.

I hope at some point you will recognize Obama et al are still good people doing the best they can. They come from us. Many have similar stories (Obama's mother/cancer, Axelrod's son/Epilepsy I am sure the list goes on and on). I recognize also that the fight I want to see is still alive and well in the community, and that makes me happy. After some reflection I also recognize that Obama is in a FAR different position than he was during the campaign and his "fighting" too hard could send all the wrong signals during this EXTREMELY delicate process. I do not see him as a weak leader, even remotely.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I can say with a straight face: I still love Howard Dean, I still love Obama, and I still hope you will keep an open mind moving forward as the Presidency faces more and more difficult challenges.

-Dave

[AllentownJake]

56. Dave it would be in everyone's best interest to trust people in office less

My old boss was one of us, a nice person, very caring, but when a choice would come between saving herself and saving her employees, she saved herself every time. It is what the system we live in encourages.

I have no doubt that Barack Obama has noble intentions 90% of the time. He also lives in a reality of Washington D.C. and therefore there are going to be conflicts of what is in the best interest of Barack Obama and what is in the best interest of the people or an intersection of some sorts.

The true test of his character is what he does in those situations. So far, I always see what is good for Barack.

[Clio the Leo]

34. Yep.....

.... throughout all of this, I haven't been so much disappointed in WHAT Dean was saying .... he obviously has a right to his opinion .... but HOW he was handling. To go to the press and strike out against his own party (or some in his own party) doesn't exactly strike me as a wise political move.

Sadly, we'll be living with his remarks for months to come as the campaign season draws nearer and his words are snipped and edited into campaign ammo for the GOP.

The whole thing is puzzling.

[AllentownJake]

36. His intial comments were rather benign

The White House response was rather insane the next morning, since than the rhetoric is increasing exponentially.

[Clio the Leo]

38. lol, "kill the bill" was benign?

And again, it's not WHAT he said, but how he did it.

[AllentownJake]

39. Kill the bill is not excactly what he said

He said if certain provisions could not be fixed the bill should be killed.

Gibbs started to attack Dean personally than in the next press conference and since than, it has really been downhill.

I thought they were smarter. We respectfully disagree with Howard Dean would have left the matter closed.

Instead their idiocy in public relations assured Howard Dean would be on every cable news show because people love a fight.

They are under a lot of stress and not thinking rationally, or they view Dean as a future political threat.

[Clio the Leo]

41. ........

:eyes:

Ok Jake. .... Thank you for pointing out the HUGE difference between the two arguments.

[Clio the Leo]

26. that's right......

.... first he'll bring Dean on and say, "tell us why you think the President is evil incarnate" and then he'll bring Axe on and say "everyone is accusing the President of evil incarnate, what do you say to that?" :)

[joshcryer]

47. Looks like you were right.

Weak.

[defendandprotect]

19. What time? I'll break a lifelong tradition of never watching . . .

I hope that Dean can stick to his guns ---

but I have a feeling that his life is probably being threatened!!!

[DFW]

24. We don't get American TV here

I'll have to see if there's a podcast I can find on the internet somewhere.

[jefferson_dem]

32. Try this link, at either 9:00 or 10:00 (ET)

http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=1822

By the way, you will find tons of channels available online here - http://www.tvpc.com/ChannelList.php

[DFW]

57. Thanks! I'll save that. n/t

[Armstead]

28. On at the same time I hope -- Th'd be interesting

I hope there's a chanc e for some back-and-forth, instead of on e sdet of spin followed by another set of spin.

It'd be interesting to see an actual (and civil) debate between their views

[Armstead]

44. On now

[jefferson_dem]

45. Dean is really walking back hard-line "kill the bill" rhetoric

He says bill is improved and wants more improvements out of conference.

[Cha]

59. Good..I like Dean and

glad to see this coming about.

[boomerbust]

46. Anybody out there

Feel like just saying "Fuck it". I wish I would have bought a little cabin on a lake somewhere with an acre of land to be able to grow a garden and a barn to house a few chickens and a cow and pig. Fuck it.

[joshcryer]

48. This is why I fucking love Dean. "Vote on bill?" Axelrod weaseled, Dean said no, empathetically.

Straightforward.

[joshcryer]

50. Dean: "Too much compromise."

It is very very difficult and very very expensive (to do it with private industry).

[joshcryer]

51. Quote from McCain pretending to be on the same side as Dean.

Dean smirking, he knows better than that, not even going to recognize it. "Wouldn't be the first person who twisted my words around."

[joshcryer]

53. "Brutal fight in the long term." Supporting Obama, backing him fully.

[joshcryer]

54. "This just *can't* be the final bill."

Can't type fast enough, something about it being expensive. Hoping for a better bill.