Examining the latest "teh LIST" of Obama's record with the gay community.

[Pab Sungenis]

A new iteration of "teh LIST" of everything that Obama has done for the LGBT*.* community is making the rounds. This teh LIST, unlike others however, now asserts that Obama has done more for gay rights than any other person living or dead throughout history.

For the moment I will leave aside everything negative that Obama said and did during his first two years in office, mainly because his abandonment of the defense of DOMA and his certification of the repeal of DADT undid the two worst things he did to LGBT*.* Americans, at least for the most part. Instead, we'll focus entirely on the positive.

This article will take a hard look at each "accomplishment," and rate it on two important criteria: IMPACT (how much of the LGBT*.* community it actually effects on a day to day basis) and SUSTAINABILITY (how likely this accomplishment is to last the eventual arrival of a Republican President). In addition I will rank each accomplishment as either EYEWASH, SYMBOLISM, FIRST STEPS, IMPORTANT, or BIG FUCKING DEAL.

Let's start at the very beginning, both of teh LIST and of the Obama Presidency.

JUNE 17 (2009): Ordered Federal Government to extend key benefits to same-sex partners of Federal employees.

IMPACT: MINIMAL

The executive order only affects LGBT*.* working for the Federal Government. It has no affect at all on anyone not employed by the Federal Government.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

Unless enshrined in legislation as part of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, this will be one of the first things revoked by Executive Order by a right-wing Republican President.

BOTTOM LINE: I would be tempted to call this merely "symbolic," but because it actually does affect the lives of a few LGBT*.* in a positive way, I will call it FIRST STEPS. Now get ENDA passed so this one will have sustainability.

JUNE 29 (2009): Hosted first White House LGBT Pride reception in history.

IMPACT: NONE

This did nothing to advance anyone's rights.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

As a one time event, there is nothing to sustain here.

BOTTOM LINE: SYMBOLISM pure and simple.

AUGUST 21 (2009): Awarded the highest civilian honor, the Medal of Freedom, to Billie Jean King and Harvey Milk.

IMPACT: NONE

This did nothing to advance anyone's rights, although it was very nice to see the two of them acknowledged for the work they'd done.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

As a one time event, there is nothing to sustain here.

BOTTOM LINE: For the President, this is "symbolism." But for those who want to use this award to give the President credit for what King and Milk did is absolute EYEWASH.

OCTOBER 21 (2009): Created a National Resource Center for LGBT Elders.

IMPACT: MAJOR

This will affect a huge number of LGBT*.* Americans and, if sustainable, eventually all of them.

SUSTAINABILITY: UNCERTAIN BUT LIKELY

This would be easy for a Republican President to close or defund, but it will probably fly under the radar.

BOTTOM LINE: The only thing keeping this from being a BFD is the fact that it's not something enshrined by law and that it could eventually be done away with. Still, it's IMPORTANT.

OCTOBER 28 (2009): Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act into law.

IMPACT: MAJOR

Even though I hated that someone felt the need to add James Byrd Jr.'s name to Matthew's Law, there's no denying that this was a major step forward.

SUSTAINABILITY: ALMOST CERTAIN

It would take an act of Congress to overturn this one, and I doubt that's going to happen.

BOTTOM LINE: This certainly qualifies as a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

JANUARY 1 (2010): Ended discrimination based on gender identity in the Federal Government.

IMPACT: MINIMAL

Like other Executive Orders of his, it only affects those working for the Federal Government. But the fact that it's the first time any Federal protection of any kind was awarded to the transgendered or transgender-identifying makes it important.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

Remember where I said that the Executive Order of June 17, 2009, would be the first overturned by a right-wing Republican President? Scratch that. That one goes second, this one goes first. Unless, again, enshrined in ENDA.

BOTTOM LINE: Yes, it's SYMBOLISM, but because as I said it's the first Federal protection of any kind for the transgendered, it's IMPORTANT symbolism.

JANUARY 4 (2010): Lifted the ban that prohibited people with HIV/AIDS from entering the United States.

IMPACT: CONSIDERABLE

But credit where credit is due. Bush signed the legislation for this one, Obama just implemented it.

SUSTAINABILITY: LIKELY

Lifting the ban was a legislative act, and it would take a hell of a push in Congress to reinstate it.

BOTTOM LINE: This one is certainly IMPORTANT.

MARCH 23 (2010): Enacted the Affordable Care Act....

IMPACT: NONE

Oh, please, The Health Care "reform" act did nothing to advance gay rights.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

BOTTOM LINE: Pure and simple EYEWASH at its most cynical. Its inclusion on teh LIST is only to make it look longer than it should.

APRIL 15 (2010): Ensured hospital visitation and medical decision-making rights for gay and lesbian patients.

IMPACT: MAJOR

This is a hot-button issue for me, since I suffered under the old policy in 2007. I've gone into that at length before and won't bore you with it now.

SUSTAINABILITY: UNCERTAIN

Like all Executive Orders this one can disappear within minutes of a Republican President taking the oath of office. If he'd included this in the Health Care Bill (as he should have) then both would be BFD's.

BOTTOM LINE: Very IMPORTANT but with an uncertain future until legislated.

JUNE 9 (2010): Allowed trans Americans to receive true gender passports without surgery.

IMPACT: MAJOR

A big win for the transgender community.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

As with the other Executive Orders, this one disappears in the opening hours of a Republican Presidency.

BOTTOM LINE: Very IMPORTANT but without permanence.

JUNE 22 (2010): Clarified the Family and Medical Leave Act ensuring family leave for LGBT employees.

IMPACT: MAJOR

Again, a big win.

SUSTAINABILITY: UNCERTAIN

Gone with the publication of a new interpretation of the law. Legislation amending the existing law is required here. Please twist some arms.

BOTTOM LINE: IMPORTANT

JUNE 22 (2010): Released America's first comprehensive plan to prevent and end homelessness, which includes LGBT youth.

IMPACT: GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK

Ending Homelessness would be a BIG FUCKING DEAL, but putting it on this list and singling out LGBT youth is like saying that Michelle Obama is making LGBT youth healthier by encouraging all kids to eat better.

For the record? Straight youth in abusive homes and other bad situations end up homeless, too.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

BOTTOM LINE: EYEWASH of the worst kind.

OCTOBER 21 (2010): Awarded a grant to....

IMPACT: WTF?

Uh, Mister President? Are you saying that your Administration only awarded one single, solitary grant to an LGBT*.* organization in your entire Administration? Don't get me wrong, this grant was an important move and will do good work, but singling it out either diminishes the other grants you've made or makes you look like an asshole for only issuing one grant to an LGBT organization. Take it off "teh LIST" because it's a lose-lose proposition.

SUSTAINABILITY: WTF?

Are you saying that this was a sign of things to come, or a one-off event?

BOTTOM LINE: Listing it here is EYEWASH.

OCTOBER 21 (2010): Recorded "It Gets Better" video.

IMPACT: UNCERTAIN

Thank you for telling kids "it gets better" at a time you were actively fighting against their rights in court and comparing their relationships to incest and pedophilia. Honestly, considering the way you were viewed by LGBT*.* Americans at that point, it may even have made cynical kids worse off.

However, considering your abrupt reversal on key issues (see below) you did prove that it can indeed "get better."

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

One off event.

BOTTOM LINE: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it SYMBOLISM.

DECEMBER 21 (2010): Led a United Nations measure that restored "sexual orientation" to the definition of human rights.

IMPACT: NONE

This does nothing to advance LGBT*.* rights in the US. And since the UN has no way to enforce its regulations, it does nothing to advance LGBT*.* rights anywhere else in the world.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

BOTTOM LINE: I guess I'll call this one SYMBOLISM, too.

DECEMBER 22 (2010): Signed the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

IMPACT: MAJOR

This was tricky. The bill you signed had lots of little traps in it that could have derailed the entire process. But you saw it through, issued your certification, and fought off Republican efforts to kill it. Until yesterday, this one was uncertain. Today it's a big win.

SUSTAINABILITY: LIKELY

It's uncertain whether the repeal, which essentially removed the law enforcing DADT but didn't legislate a non-discrimination policy, leaves an opening for a Republican President to reinstate the pre-Clinton Executive Order banning all LGBT*.* from military service. Still, it's hard to put toothpaste back into the tube, so we'll say this one is probably for the ages.

BOTTOM LINE: Absolutely a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

JANUARY 20 (2011): Ensured Government housing programs can no longer discriminate against the LGBT community.

IMPACT: MAJOR

Very big step. Very important step.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

Without legislation backing it, this is another item gone in the opening salvos of a Republican administration.

BOTTOM LINE: IMPORTANT but without permanence.

FEBRUARY 14 (2011): Proposed more funding for LGBT priorities....

IMPACT: UNCERTAIN AT THIS TIME

If he can get the funds through this Congress or the next it's a BIG FUCKING DEAL but it's unfinished work at this point and impossible to judge.

JANUARY 20 (2011): Declared the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional and announced the Administration will no longer defend it in court.

IMPACT: UNCERTAIN

The final say is up to the courts, but by taking away the loudest and strongest advocate for the law's constitutionality, this struck a major blow.

But one point, Mr. President: you don't have the power to declare jack shit unconstitutional. Only the courts do. Watch your wording, please.

SUSTAINABILITY: UNCERTAIN

Again, it's up to the courts.

BOTTOM LINE: Even though we won't know the final effect for a while, this is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. For the record, this is where he won me back.

MARCH 10 (2011): Hosted a conference on bullying prevention at the White House.

I'm not even going to address this one, because it shouldn't be a LGBT*.* issue. It's a human rights issue, and this is a BIG FUCKING DEAL for all kids, not just LGBT*.*. Tout this a lot more outside LGBT*.* circles.

MARCH 31 (2011): Completed an Institute of Medicine study on LGBT health, the first of its kind.

IMPACT: UNCERTAIN

It's nice that this was done, but the impact won't be known until we see if and how the study's findings are implemented.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

BOTTOM LINE: I'll call this one FIRST STEPS until we start seeing the fruits of the study, if any.

AUGUST 18 (2011): Clarified the meaning of "family" to include LGBT relationships, helping to protect bi-national families threatened by deportation.

IMPACT: MAJOR

This is a more common problem than people realize.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

Again, easily changed by a Republican. Please push this legislatively.

BOTTOM LINE: Even though its effects may be short lived once a Republican gets elected eventually, until that time it is certainly a BIG FUCKING DEAL for all of those affected. Bravo.

AUGUST 20 (2011): Supported Lesbian Widow Edith Winsor in her suit against DOMA.

IMPACT: UNCERTAIN

As with DOMA repeal itself, it's a work in progress and up to the courts. But not only reversing course on DOMA but actually putting the government on the side of the angels is a BIG FUCKING DEAL no matter what the final outcome.

SEPTEMBER 2 (2011): Issued guidance to foster safer working environments for transgender Federal Employees.

IMPACT: MINIMAL

Only affects Federal Employees.

SUSTAINABILITY: NONE

Gone the first day of a Republican Administration.

BOTTOM LINE: I will grant benefit of the doubt and call this FIRST STEPS until it's enshrined in legislation.

I'm leaving off the last two (strengthening enforcement of visitation rules and implementation of DADT repeal) because they're double-dipping. He already got credit for those earlier.

At the end, a mixed bag. A lot of first steps, not that much impact on a lot of items, but some major victories (mainly in the last 10 months).

The BIG FUCKING DEALs are worth trumpeting about, but those actions got us back on your side. As for the rest of teh LIST, Mr. President? It was compiled back when you were actively working against our rights and you were desperate to look like you were on our side. Don't brag about them or make them seem bigger than they are. Forget the symbolism and get rid of the eyewash, you're actually getting something done now so crow about that.

[ClarkUSA]

1. You're continuing an argument from another OP. Your strawman argument is based on thin air.

<< This teh LIST, unlike others however, now asserts that Obama has done more for gay rights than any other person living or dead throughout history.>>

Um, wrong. No one ever said what you claim. Why are you taking what I said out of context?

I stand by what I said:

"President Obama has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than any other individual in American history."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777610

What pro-LGBT legislation did Harvey Milk ever push through Congress? Your apple to oranges outrage is a FAIL.

[Pab Sungenis]

8. "No one ever said what you claim."

http://unicornbooty.com/2011/09/what-has-obama-done-for-lgbt-americans-incredible-infographic
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x777350

"But the fact of the matter is that no...single person has done more for the LGBT community in the entire history of our country. No joke."

[ClarkUSA]

10. The blogger is entitled to his opinion, as you are entitled to yours. But you moved the goalpost.

In the OP by babylonsister, you were falsely attacking me:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777651

This is the truth, no matter how much you want to ignore or deny it:

"President Obama has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than any other individual in American history."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777610

[Pab Sungenis]

23. You moved the goalpost, not me.

I said that saying the President has done more than any individual, period, was exaggeration.

You moved the goalpost by adding "legally advance" and "on a national level" to your criticism of me.

And you're still wrong. Even by your moved goalposts Barney Frank has done more.

[ClarkUSA]

24. Um, no. My linked quotes from the previous OP where you disrupted the thread is proof enough.

In the OP by babylonsister, you were falsely attacking me:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777651

This is the truth, no matter how much you want to ignore or deny it:

"President Obama has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than any other individual in American history."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777610


<< And you're still wrong... Barney Frank has done more. >>

Prove it. Show me "teh list". :rofl:

[Pab Sungenis]

15. And I'm not quoting you

even though now you insist on moving the goalposts. What pro-black legislation did Martin Luther King Jr. ever push through Congress? Or Medgar Evers? Or Malcolm X? Or Rosa Parks? But all of them are more important than LBJ was to civil rights.

There's a list as long as my arm of people who have done more to advance LGBT*.* rights than Obama. The article that first published this version of teh LIST made the inaccurate claim that Obama had done more to advance LGBT*.* rights than any other individual. I've provided the exact quote.

And for your moved goalposts? Barney Frank has done more to "legally advance LGBT rights on a national level" for more than 30 years than Barack Obama has in his Presidency.

No outrage, either, just an honest look at the President's record, giving him credit where due and pointing out the exaggerations and pointless symbolism being passed off as achievements. You're the only one expressing outrage here, and it's outrage that apparently I'm not a good enough supporter of the President because I don't make him seem bigger than he is.

[ClarkUSA]

21. You did in the OP where you first created this strawman outrage argument.

In the OP by babylonsister, you were directly and falsely attacking me:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777651

This is the truth, no matter how much you want to ignore or deny it:

"President Obama has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than any other individual in American history."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777350&mesg_id=777610

You clearly have no clue what "moving the goalpost" means, either.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

85. You will never convince an Obama fanatic.

He only sees Obama.

[Ohio Joe]

2. Nice but...

Equal rights for all is the very basis of America and it needs to be given a much higher priority.

[Pab Sungenis]

39. It's starting to get a higher priority.

Look at Obama's record from December 2010 onward. It's a significant improvement.

[Ohio Joe]

49. Not good enough

He can and should be doing much better. As a nation, equal rights should be our highest prioity and called out when it is not.

[Tarheel_Dem]

3. Pointless.

:rofl:

[Swede]

4. You have way too much time on your hands.

nt

[Pab Sungenis]

9. Someone has to look at the record.

Obama's done a lot, yes, but it's counterproductive to overaggrandize what he's done.

[xchrom]

12. +1

[ClarkUSA]

13. That's your opinion. It's counterproductive to minimize what he's done.

Yet that's all some people do, even on the occasion of DADT repeal.

[ThomCat]

86. It is counterproductive to worship the man and constantly

inflate every tiny thing he does into huge supposed accomplishments that everyone should admire and see as proof of his sincere love and greatness. The man is not a saint. He is a politician.

[ProSense]

14. Hmmm?

"Obama's done a lot, yes, but it's counterproductive to overaggrandize what he's done."

He's done a lot, but that doesn't mean people should praise him or acknowledge his accomplishments. Stop it now!!!

[Pab Sungenis]

35. Praise and acknowledge his accomplishments

but don't pretend that things that aren't accomplishments (like the gay pride ball) are.

[ProSense]

48. Let's

"but don't pretend that things that aren't accomplishments (like the gay pride ball) are."


...look at that and this from the OP:

"JUNE 22 (2010): Released America's first comprehensive plan to prevent and end homelessness, which includes LGBT youth.

IMPACT: GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK

Ending Homelessness would be a BIG FUCKING DEAL, but putting it on this list and singling out LGBT youth is like saying that Michelle Obama is making LGBT youth healthier by encouraging all kids to eat better.

For the record? Straight youth in abusive homes and other bad situations end up homeless, too.

SUSTAINABILITY: NOT APPLICABLE

BOTTOM LINE: EYEWASH of the worst kind."

First, given that the LGBT community is still being denied full civil rights, every symbolic gesture helps. The "It gets better" videos are case in point. For the WH to hold the first LGBT pride reception in history is of equal significance.

On LGBT youth homelessness, your trivialization is disgraceful.

Gay and Transgender Youth Homelessness by the Numbers

Report: On the Streets: The Federal Response to Gay and Transgender Homeless Youth

There are approximately 1.6 million to 2.8 million homeless young people in the United States, and estimates suggest that disproportionate numbers of those youth are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. These vulnerable gay and transgender youth often run away from home because of family conflict and then face overt discrimination when seeking alternative housing, which is compounded by institutionalized discrimination in federally funded programs.

We do not have to accept this reality. The federal government has the power to reduce and eventually eliminate rates of gay and transgender youth homelessness while addressing youth homelessness overall. Congress can and should make a financial commitment to services directed at these young people. They should join with federal agencies and couple it with an expansion of equal rights and protections to all gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. As the numbers below show, it’s time we provide these young people with the help they need.



<...>

[Pab Sungenis]

69. Including this on a list of LGBT*.* accomplishments

is cynically scrambling to equate a laudable effort as being one specifically aimed at LGBT*.*. I also include the bullying conference in this area. Laudable efforts, but tout them as what they are, not as something you did specifically for LGBT*.*.

[ProSense]

76. This

"Including this on a list of LGBT*.* accomplishments is cynically scrambling to equate a laudable effort as being one specifically aimed at LGBT*.*."

...is nonsense. Again, it trivializes the issue and the efforts to address why LGBT youth represent a disproportionate percentage of the homeless.

[ThomCat]

87. Bullshit. What is trivializing is taking credit for solving

real problems, serious problems, when nothing serious is being done to address those problems. This is a shallow attempt to score political points by merely claiming that something is being done with purely symbolic and trivial efforts.

As person who is both gay and disabled who has been homeless, I really will take it personally when chumps who have no clue what it's like to live through that kind of experience try to use our hardships for cheap political points.

Either make serious efforts to solve problems, and earn credit honestly, or shut the fuck up.

[ProSense]

96. While

"Bullshit. What is trivializing is taking credit for solving

real problems, serious problems, when nothing serious is being done to address those problems. This is a shallow attempt to score political points by merely claiming that something is being done with purely symbolic and trivial efforts.

As person who is both gay and disabled who has been homeless, I really will take it personally when chumps who have no clue what it's like to live through that kind of experience try to use our hardships for cheap political points.

Either make serious efforts to solve problems, and earn credit honestly, or shut the fuck up."



...I can sympathize, the fact is that this is a political forum. There is absolutely nothing wrong with highlighting the achievements of politicians, including the President. It's not an affront, it's an acknowledgment.

When a list of President's achievements is posted, it's attacked as an affront to those who are disappointed. Progress on ending the wars is an insult to the troops.

Why can't people simply recognize acknowledgment for what it is, and not try to portray in callous or sinister terms?

Telling people to "shut the fuck up" is rude and uncalled for, regardless of your plight.

Some people really care about progress, deeply. Given the RW assualt on everything decent about American life, it's appalling that the most important thing to some is to beat down any celebration of the President's accomplishments.

You know what, he isn't doing it for himself. He didn't enact health care reform to better life for himself and his family only. He didn't sign a food safety law to protect his food. He isn't a martyr or the enemy.

Claiming that acknowledging these achievement is an attempt to "score political points" is the kind of bitter cynicism that has become entrenched due to a lack of perspective.

When the President screws up in terms of actions and policies, it affect Americans, and there are many who will trumpet his failure.

When he succeeds, it's not about scoring political points. You might want the discussion of the Presidency to be one-way down a negative path, but that is not the reality. There will be criticisms and praise. Deal with it.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

5. invisible rec -- never believe that it's the left who are out of touch w/ reality. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

6. oh boy

:popcorn:

[Whisp]

7. that sure is a lot of work you did there Skippy.

:rofl:

IMPACT: MINIMAL
SUSTAINABILITY: FOREVER
BOTTOM LINE: SAME OLD

[ProSense]

11. Holy crap!

You spent all that time trying to denigrate the President's accomplishments for the LGBT community?

Have you seen "teh LIST", Nader version?

He wrote some books, endorsed some bills and helped start some organizations, which clearly means he's an uber progress and his accomplisments outshine those of President Obama.

The desperation grows!

[Pab Sungenis]

16. Why bring Nader into this?

And I'm not denigrating the President's accomplishments, I'm looking at them one by one. Some (like the gay pride dinner and giving a medal to Billie Jean King) are not accomplishments at all and shouldn't be touted as such.

Did you actually read what I wrote?

[ProSense]

17. Because

"Why bring Nader into this?"

...the OP is mocking ("teh LIST"), hypocritical and amounts to navel gazing!

[Pab Sungenis]

19. ...and has nothing to do with Nader.

And how is saying that calling some things that are nothing but symbolism "accomplishments" hypocritical?

[AngkorWot]

22. If this were a list of "President Nader's" accomplishments...

I doubt you'd be denigrating them as you're currently doing.

[Pab Sungenis]

38. Why are you all bringing Nader into this?

I've not said his name once.

[AngkorWot]

62. Nader... Clinton... McCain...

anybody but Obama.

[Pab Sungenis]

65. Huh?

Show me ONE FUCKING POST ANYWHERE where I supported Nader, Clinton (either of them!), or McCain over Obama.

Show me ONE.

Otherwise, admit you're wrong and trying to bring Nader into this as a distraction.

[LoZoccolo]

18. Do you think that it's a significant issue that Barack Obama invited Rick Warren and

Donnie McClurkin to appear at his events?

[Pab Sungenis]

20. Yes.

But while I won't say all is forgiven, what he's done since the midterm elections more than makes up for it.

[LoZoccolo]

25. Wouldn't that make at least two of the gestures that you deemed "symbolic" to be

important to you?

[Pab Sungenis]

30. Which two?

And just because something is symbolic doesn't mean it's not important, just not an "accomplishment."

[LoZoccolo]

56. The reception and the medals of honor. n/t

[Pab Sungenis]

68. They were symbolic

and were nice touches. But they weren't accomplishments and they did nothing for gay rights.

Bill Clinton appointed an openly gay ambassador. That did nothing for our rights, either.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. And this shows exactly the problems with "the lists".

Window dressings are given equal weight with real accomplishments, just to overwhelm the doubters, but the actual result is the overwhelming of real accomplishments with a mass of bullshit, which diminishes the actual achievements.

One achievement standing on its own stands out. One achievement surrounded by a massive pile of crap leads to saying, "what a stinking pile of crap".

Nice analysis.

[ClarkUSA]

28. The "problems" are from those who think their negative opinions of Pres. Obama can overwhelm facts.

[Pab Sungenis]

32. The "problems" are from people who

aren't satisfied with the facts and have to make stuff seem more important than it is.

[ClarkUSA]

36. Substitute "more" with "less" and you've got it right.

[Pab Sungenis]

37. What am I making less important?

Can you honestly say that anything I've marked as symbolism or eyewash is an achievement? Or that anything I call a first step is more than that? Certainly you can't be nitpicking by saying that I called something "important" that should be a "big fucking deal?"

[ClarkUSA]

44. "Barney Frank has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than Barack Obama."

:rofl:

Still a pantload.

[Pab Sungenis]

63. What bill did Barack Obama introduce in the Senate to advance LGBT*.* rights?

Which bill did his White House's legislative office write to advance LGBT*.* rights?

[ClarkUSA]

67. Moving the goalpost because you can't prove your claim re: Frank?

:rofl:

[Pab Sungenis]

71. Nope, an honest question.

Barney Frank introduced more LGBT*.* rights legislation than Obama did as a Senator or as President.

He passed more bills for LGBT*.* rights than Obama did as Senator or as President.

By your own criteria, he did more to legally advance LGBT*.* rights at a national level than Obama has.

[ClarkUSA]

72. That wasn't what you originally claimed. You're moving the goalpost to CYA again.

You said:

<< Barney Frank has done more to legally advance LGBT rights on a national level than Barack Obama.>>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777933&mesg_id=777996

Your rhetoric doesn't match the facts, if "teh list" you gave me is anything to go by.

[Pab Sungenis]

73. He has.

Obama has signed two bills that legally advanced LGBT*.* rights. He neither wrote nor introduced them. He didn't even lobby for the passage of one of them.

Barney Frank has been fighting in Congress to end discrimination in the workplace against LGBT*.* people for decades. Show me one bill Obama introduced for LGBT*.* rights as a Senator or as President. Show me one he passed as a Senator.

[ClarkUSA]

74. Again, you're cherrypicking in order to minimize Pres. Obama.

Here is President Obama's list of achievement, which Barney Frank cannot match and which all your rhetorical sneering and semantic gaming cannot diminish, however much you keep trying.

[Pab Sungenis]

31. Obama has done more than any President so far for LGBT rights.

DADT and now the efforts against DOMA are enough. That's what he should be pushing as achievements.

[JoePhilly]

43. I was glad to learn he did an "It gets better video".

Those probably don't do much for gay individuals who've come out and who are comfortable with their sexual orientation.

But for kids who are gay, and terrified to tell anyone at all, apparently these are very powerful.

I did not know Obama did one, and I think that its great. Sure, its not DADT, but its still important.

[Pab Sungenis]

57. Don't start with me about bullying.

You've never counseled a suicidal gay teen. You've never given to the Trevor Project (I actually gave all the royalties and sales revenues from one of my plays to them). You've never worked with kids who had been bullied. You've never worked to raise awareness of the problem. I have.

I watched the video when it came out. It was very condescending and disingenuous. Especially coming at a time when the President and his Justice Department were working to make sure that those kids would never be allowed to join the military or get married. The thought was nice, but it came off as phony.

It was a nice sentiment, but it was symbolism and little more. And it did nothing to advance LGBT*.* rights which is what teh LIST is supposedly about.

[ClarkUSA]

75. Yet another negative attack against Obama that minimizes his pro-LGBT efforts?

What's "condescending" is your seeming belief that your personal fact-free opinion overrules anyone else's (e.g. JoePhilly's).

[JoePhilly]

81. That is one of the most arrogant (and incorrect) posts that I think I've ever read on DU

The first time I counseled a gay teen was in 1983 or 1984. A girl that I was very good friends with had a brother who was gay.

And he was terrified to talk about it. His sister asked me to talk to him because she knew that I had recently written a research paper on Homosexuality as part of a senior project in college. She also knew that I would help her brother understand that while much of the world was not ready to accept him, the was also a large and growing community who did, and they wanted to help.

He and I talked a great deal. And he is still alive.

This might be a good time to mention that I graduated with a BS in Psych shortly after that experience. As a graduate student (now holding MA and PhD), I taught Intro Psych and a few other Psych classes in various areas. In almost every semester, a gay student approached me, in part because I would discuss homosexuality in an open manner, and make those students who were "against gays" defend that position. Oh, and I did this at Texas Tech, where redneck teens thought(probably still think) beating up the gay kid is a sport.

One of my closet friends is a "former Republican". His son is now 15, and its pretty apparent that he is gay. But he's also not ready to discuss that. He's been bullied. And he tries to hide that fact. I've been helping his parents guide him to resources like the Trevor project, and "It gets Better" ... in the hope of getting him to open up. But I think you would agree that he can not be forced, right??

I'm a huge Stephanie Miller fan, and I learned about the Trevor project through her a few years ago. And I have donated to it. I've helped friends engage it.

So, I think what I am saying to you is simple ... you do not know DICK about who I am, or what actions I have taken on this front.

But you certainly felt that you could tell me what I have, or have not done.

If this is how you act in real life, I feel sad for those around you.

[Pab Sungenis]

82. Then I stand corrected.

I didn't know about your history and I apologize.

[RaleighNCDUer]

55. Exactly. nt

[Cigar11]

29. Ok then ...

The Blogger can always Vote for the Presidential Candidate who has done more.

[Pab Sungenis]

34. I intend to.

I intend to vote for Obama. As I said, he won me back with his reversal on ENDA.

[tblue]

33. You forgot Poland.

Actually, if you add to your analysis the (Ric Warren?) acts ('I believe marriage should....man and a woman.'?), our potus is a walking contradiction, as he is on just about everything.

Kudos to him for seeing some of these through, especially this latest repeal. He's given people a reason to hope and believe again. And that IS a BFD. Yaay Obama!

Good job, Pap. I appreciate a thoughtful, fair analysis so muchmore than a one-sided list of accomplishments marked with contrivances and half-measures. Gimme the real! Nothing is just black or just white.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pab Sungenis]

41. I like to think the President is more than a fair weather friend.

He did a few really good things in his first two years, but they were completely overshadowed by the insults, missteps, and active fighting against our rights in the courts. Some people started dredging out the little stuff like the Gay Pride Ball and the medals for Billie Jean King and Harvey Milk to pad the list and try to overshadow the harm that was being done.

Now with DADT gone and the government actively fighting against DOMA in court (an amazing 180-degree turn) we have real accomplishments for him to trumpet. They should lose the bullshit and concentrate on what are the real accomplishments with lasting impact.

[Prism]

51. Yes and no

At the end of the day, the President will do exactly as much as he feels he can safely do - and not an inch further. There will be no political capital put at risk on our behalf. His continuing (insulting) evolution on gay marriage is Exhibit A of this.

I think he wants to be a transformative civil rights president, but his political priorities have a way of reigning in that potential for greatness. Rather than lead, it seems he's been reluctantly dragged along. Too often for my taste. The LGBT community shouldn't have to resort to apoplexy to get basic fair advances.

[Pab Sungenis]

59. The question is, what happens after re-election?

Is he going to feel freed up enough to actually fight for our rights more actively and forcefully, knowing he never has to face a voter again? I hope so.

[Prism]

64. If Congress remains Republican, it will be a moot question

Which is why I found that first two years of inaction so infuriating. We could have at least jimmied ENDA in there. It was a golden window of opportunity, and we spent the vast majority of it blinking at the DOMA defenses and DADT foot-dragging.

[ClarkUSA]

45. Funny how so many LGBTers were never "so suspicious" of Pres. "DADT/DOMA" Clinton, eh?

Even after he okayed anti-LGBT campaign ads. Talk about a fair weather friend. Propagandists, indeed.

[Prism]

47. Which has fuck all to do with the matter at hand.

You hate Clinton. I get that. I also don't care about it. I was too young when Clinton was in office. On balance, I don't like what much of the man did.

However, we're dealing with our lives, right now, this instant, with this administration.

So I'd advise you take your erective displeasure with the Clintons to a topic more suitable than what is going on with the LGBT community today.

How many times you've responded to LGBT posts with "But Clinton . . . !"

You know what? I was twelve freakin years old when Clinton was elected. You really need to start aiming this non-sequitur elsewhere.

[Pab Sungenis]

54. Or all of the obsessive mentioning of Nader elsewhere.

Nader won't, can't, and shouldn't be President. He has nothing to do with this.

[ClarkUSA]

58. It's an observation. And you "get" nothing about me and certainly not any facts.

WTF has this OP have to do with Pres. Obama's factual acheivements on the day DADT repeal except as an excuse to attack and minimize what he's done?

[Pab Sungenis]

60. It acknowledges what are actual achievements

and points out what are being touted as achievements that aren't. Or that are of minimal impact and don't belong on a list.

Is giving a medal to Billie Jean King an achievement for gay rights?

Is hosting a Gay Pride Ball?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pab Sungenis]

53. Excuse me?

I was. Clinton's record on gay rights was abysmal. If it weren't for the fact that his record was overshadowed by the virulent anti-gay policies of the two Presidents on either side of him, I'm sure a lot more people who condemn him for what he did.

[DURHAM D]

92. Wrong.

Your repeated attacks on Clinton just show you were not involved in the movement at the time.

[Pab Sungenis]

100. I got into the movement in 1993

after being forced out of a job by anti-gay harassment the year before. I felt the same feelings with Clinton that I did with Obama. Finally, there was someone who understood and would do something.

Then DADT came along. Then DOMA. But unlike Obama, who has gone out of his way to correct his mistakes with gay rights, Clinton did nothing. We got symbolism (like nominating a gay ambassador he knew couldn't get confirmed) and eyewash. It was a disgrace.

[DURHAM D]

103. Again, you don't seem to have any idea what the political context was.

DOMA passed the Senate 85-14. And, 18 Senators who voted for DADT in 1993 voted for repeal in 2010. The Democratic Senators were our (and the WH) biggest enemy.

DADT was an improvement over the then policy. It was enforced differently than written and intended. DOMA was signed to buy time so the movement underway by the Repubs to pass an amendment to the US Constitution could be derailed. It worked.

Think about trying to gain our rights by taking down a Constitutional Amendment.

I just get tired of the history rewrite. I understand it was necessary to create a false narrative during the last Presidential primary so Obama could beat Hillary. Unfortunately, it is the version that younger people believe. Clinton tried to pick up our entire community and move us forward virtually by himself. The forces against (mostly Dems) were determined to show him that he was an idiot hayseed from Arkansas. We were not organized enough to help him. He spent ten times more political capital on that one issue (gays serving openly) than Obama has spent since he arrived in the WH.

[jefferson_dem]

42. Get over yourself.

Most of your "rebuttals" to these real accomplishments amount to straw men or petty dismissals without substantive justification.

[Pab Sungenis]

52. Which?

If you want to make a case, then point out where I'm wrong.

[treestar]

46. Can't you give him credit for what he did do?

You're going out of your way not to. Spent a long time on that? I don't appreciate all that effort going to minimize the efforts of someone who has done a lot. And what about other issues?

[Mr Deltoid]

50. Did you read it?

He gives ample credit where credit is due, not sure what the beef is.

[ClarkUSA]

70. Have you read through this thread and the one where the OP first started complaining?

Here are the links that can get you started on the originating OP which Pab disrupted with incessant strawman attacks:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777933&mesg_id=777993

That's where "the beef is."

[xchrom]

77. +1 -- whining about reality is what it is. nt

[ClarkUSA]

78. Those who trivialize and then dismiss Pres. Obama's pro-LGBT achievements = "whining about reality"

Behold reality.



Anything else is opinion-based rhetoric.

[Cigar11]

79. Well ... there you have it.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

84. It appears that OP tried to minimize the President's

contributions. Reluctantly giving credit but then labeling it ineffective and the like.

Took a very long time obviously to do that.

[Mr Deltoid]

91. Ample credit was given, where due

Stop being so hypersensitive.

[ClarkUSA]

93. Not in my opinion and the opinion of many others.

"Stop being so hypersensitive"? Perhaps the OP should take your advice.

[Mr Deltoid]

98. Oh, hush

lol

[Pab Sungenis]

99. And frankly, I was pleasantly surprised at

how many things I had to list as "important" or "big fucking deals."

The problem with teh LIST is that it's padded. It's got non-achievements, symbolism, exaggerations, and outright distortions on it. And they distract from the real accomplishments. As someone else said at least they didn't bring up the Easter Egg roll.

This President ended DADT and is now fighting DOMA. He acknowledged and did what he could (even if, through no fault of his, it wasn't much) for the transgendered. He put a lot of temporary measures in place that hopefully when the Democrats win back control he can get into longer-lasting legislation.

Those are achievements enough. Don't pad the resume.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

83. Once again, you insult James Byrd's memory to make a factually incorrect point.

As I pointed out to you in another thread (and to which you had no reply to because you knew you were wrong), the reason James Byrd's name is on the Byrd-Shepard Act is because the bill removed the prerequisite that hate-crime victims be engaged in a federally protected activity at the time. And the reason Byrd's killers faced the death penalty and not Shepard's killers is because one of Shepard's killers testified against the other, while the other killer was spared the death penalty by Shepard's PARENTS.

James Byrd was NOT engaged in a federally protected activity at the time. THAT is why his name is on the bill, and NOT as some sort of backhanded insult to Matthew Shepard's memory, as you seem to think for some extremely bizarre reason.

You not only insult Byrd's memory (not to mention Shepard's), you also insult yourself by letting your outrage get in the way of facts.

Also, the statement re: Obama on that blog was made by a gay person, not a straight person who was ignoring the struggle throughout history. But the fact is, legislatively speaking, Obama has done more for the GLBT community than any other. And yes, it's possible to acknowledge that while also acknowledging the sacrifices and efforts of people like Harvey Milk and the Stonewall rioters.

[dsc]

88. that is just baldly false

To take just one example, Representative Silver of New York (ie the New York Assembly Speaker), sheparded through the New York legislature ENDA, Marriage, hate crimes, and a bullying bill. You don't use the word federal in your post.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

90. But Silver's efforts only applied to GLBTs in New York.

That's not a slam on him or anybody else who does such commendable work, but it's obvious Obama -- via federal policy -- is making great strides and has certainly been responsible, legislatively speaking, for the advancement of GLBT rights throughout the country.

[dsc]

94. You only had the word legislative, not federal in your post

the fact is Silver did more legislatively than Obama did, even as it was only on a state level. I would guess that a similar thing could be said of Illinois and Vermont's legislative leadership.

[ClarkUSA]

95. "the fact is Silver did more legislatively than Obama did, even as it was only on a state level"

:rofl:

[Pab Sungenis]

102. Hell, here in NJ

Jim Florio and Jon Corzine did more for not only LGB but Transgender rights than Obama has so far. Obama's done quite a bit, but not more than any other person living or dead forever in history.

[ClarkUSA]

109. "Jim Florio and Jon Corzine did more for not only LGB but Transgender rights than Obama has so far"

:rofl:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777933&mesg_id=779061

[mitchtv]

111. remember Willie Brown (the Brown Act 1972)

removed criminal penalties on teh Gays , Being California, it affected many people if real life.not a few federal employees

[Starbucks Anarchist]

104. What Obama did affects far more people.

Again, not a slam on people like Silver who do similar things on a state level, but you can't deny Obama is the one who made these changes on the federal level, regardless of the fact that I didn't include "federal" in the post. Clearly, "federal" was implied since I was referring to President Obama, not Senator Obama.

[Pab Sungenis]

101. Not at that point

but later on.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stevenleser]

105. As a strong supporter of the President, I can support this. Seems fair. n/t

[mitchtv]

106. he's been good for us. no doubt

Now if he could match Willie Brown's accomplishments on a national scale, I would be more than satisfied, Brown decriminalized Gay sexul activity for consenting adults in I think 1972 The Brown Act. Jerry Brown signed it, but Willie gets the credit. I resent the strait Dems trying to tell me how I should feel about Gay progress

[Behind the Aegis]

107. Excellent breakdown.

Too bad it is being used to bully and intimidate as opposed to inspire and encourage.

[blkmusclmachine]

108. "God's in the mix" & Obama's Legal Brief defaming GLBT supercedes all:

And then there's Donnie "ex-gay" McClurkin, Rev. Rick "Uganda" Warren, the Dominionist "Oak Initiative" that Obama invited to the WH to pray with him on Easter Sunday, and Rev. Doug "Kill the Gays" Coe ("close friend & confidant"). YOU CANNOT RECONCILE THESE RADICALLY OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS.

[ClarkUSA]

110. Those were symbolic gestures and comments that meant about as much as a golf game with Boehner.

For you to hold these things against him despite all the things President Obama has done to legally advance LGBT rights on a greater human scale than any individual in American history is shortsighted.

BTW, how do you feel about Bill "DADT/DOMA/approved anti-LGBT campaign ads" Clinton?

"Clinton ran anti-gay ads in 1996":
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/03/11/464805/-Andrew-Sullivan:-Clinton-ran-anti-gay-ads-in-96

"Racist, homophobic Reverend Billy Graham gave the invocation at Clinton's inaugurations":
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7992675&mesg_id=7995107

"Bill Graham: Hillary's Solace": http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1650798,00.html

"Bill & Hillary Clinton attending Billy Graham Crusade":
http://www.annointed.net/Community/prayer-our-president/40171-bill-hillary-clinton-attending-billy-graham-crusade-2.html

[TriMera]

112. Prove it...

"President Obama has done to legally advance LGBT rights on a greater human scale than any individual in American history." Hint: Start with the Mattachine Society (1950) and work your way forward. When you get to around 1998, look for the name John Geddes Lawrence. His accomplishment was huge and it affected more of us than anything on "teh list" ever will.

[ClarkUSA]

113. Prove that John Geddes Lawrence legally advanced LGBT rights for more Americans than Pres. Obama.

Show me "teh list". :eyes:

[TriMera]

114. That's okay. You just proved that you know nothing about

our history or our rights.

Edited to change no to know.

[ClarkUSA]

115. That's okay. You just proved that your claim was worth nothing. Here's my proof:

These legal achievements by President Obama positively affect the national LGBT community.

On LGBT issues, President Obama’s signature achievement has been passage of the law to repeal the odious “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy that cost our nation thousands of patriotic Americans willing to put their lives on the line. The president stood up before the country in his State of the Union address and promised he would work with Congress to end DADT. And he delivered. Behind the scenes and in public, he worked with advocates to put together all of the pieces — not the least of which was getting senior military leadership to be repeal’s biggest champions.

It was also President Obama who signed the first federal law explicitly protecting lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people — the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act. And when the president read the story of Janice Langbehn, who along with her children was shut out of the emergency room as her partner lay dying of a brain aneurysm, he put his administration into action. Mandating that every hospital receiving Medicaid or Medicare funds adopt new visitation policies, the president’s directive means that nearly every hospital in the country is a significant step closer to treating our families as equals.

There is no more stark a contrast than President Bush’s advocacy for a constitutional amendment to discriminate against same-sex couples versus President Obama’s refusal to defend federal marriage discrimination in court. Calling the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional and arguing that any attempt to discriminate on the basis sexual orientation must clear a high bar of judicial scrutiny will be remembered as a major turning point in the history of legal equality for LGBT people.

On other issues, President Obama has continued to put fairness ahead of the exclusion too often felt from the Bush administration. On the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, the Bush administration threatened to veto the bill if it were ever passed, calling it “inconsistent with the right to the free exercise of religion” and somehow in conflict with DOMA. Senior officials in the Obama administration instead testified in favor of ENDA on Capitol Hill... The administration added gender identity to the equal employment opportunity policy governing all federal jobs. Married same-sex couples are now able to use their marriage licenses as evidence of a name change for passports, and there are more reasonable standards for changing a gender marker on passports as well. In the area of health, the president launched a National HIV/AIDS Strategy, and Health and Human Services has efforts to target populations most at risk, including gay and bisexual men and transgender people. This administration also requires that abstinence-only-until-marriage sex education programs be inclusive of and nonstigmatizing toward LGBT youth.

http://www.advocate.com/Politics/Commentary/HRC_Backs_Obama_for_2012

Case closed.

[TriMera]

117. That's not proof, it's a commentary on "teh list". n/t

[ClarkUSA]

119. It's a commentary by HRC about the facts re: what Pres. Obama has done on a federal level for LGBT.

Meanwhile, you have nothing to back up your bogus claim.

You're free to ignore the facts. It doesn't change the fact that every member of the LGBT community across the nation can enjoy long-denied civil rights now, thanks to Pres. Obama's determined efforts.

[dsc]

116. Since you apparently don't know

Mr. Lawrence is the gentleman who was arrested in Texas for conscentual sodomy and who appealed to the US Supreme Court. His case invalidated sodomy laws in the 14 states they remained in. Those laws could be, and in many cases were, used to deny gays jobs that require licenses and to deny custody to gay parents. Frankly, for those of us who still lived under those laws it was the largest advancement of our rights on the federal level in US History. As recently as 1997 I had to sign a morals clause to teach that stated I hadn't committed nor would commit sodomy.

[ClarkUSA]

118. !4 states versus 50. That proves TriMera's claim is not valid.

Thanks for the personal explanation.

[Ignis]

120. The ability to have sex trumps the ability to serve in the military.

There was a psychologist and researcher named Abraham Maslow, who wrote just a teensy little bit about the hierarchy of needs. You can find this information in his book, Motivation and Personality. Happy researching!

[dsc]

121. for the fourteen

including the second and third largest (TX and FL) it was huge. It also, to the extent it gets applied to the military, allows for gays to serve without being criminals.

[Pab Sungenis]

125. Another thing about Lawrence and the sodomy laws

Here in NJ, any man who was convicted under the old sodomy law (which was struck down in 1979 although only sporadically enforced after Stonewall) is technically still a sex offender and must register under Megan's law as if he was a rapist or child molester. Same thing goes if he'd been convicted in another state which kept its law until Lawrence v. Kansas.

Some people have no idea just how big a blow for our rights Lawrence v. Kansas was.

[TriMera]

127. +1. n/t

[JuniperLea]

122. I'm so fucking sick of this fucking shit...

This is it... I'm not listening anymore. Plllllloink!

[johnaries]

123. Looking at all of your MAJOR impacts and your FIRST STEPS

(which I think are very important), IMPORTANT, and BIG FUCKING DEAL's, Obama has certainly done more for the LGBT community than any other President. And the fact that so many of them can be undone by a Repuke President simply points out how important it is that we don't allow another Repuke in office - at least until these policies become entrenched. I also have to disagree that many of the policies that only affect Fed employees have "minimal" impact. Many private policies follow Government employee policies, so the true impact of these policies are currently unknown.

Overall, I appreciate the hard work that you put into this insightful and impartial analysis. I think that it actually reinforces the importance of "teh list" rather than hurts it. Even if many of those items you "debunk" are taken off, it's still quite an impressive list!

EDIT TO ADD: Also, I think this analysis also emphasizes the importance of pushing legislation, so we should work not only to re-elect Obama but to take back the House and get a REAL 60 vote filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Full disclosure: I am hetero, but I support civil rights for ALL.

[Pab Sungenis]

124. Yes, he's done more than any President

but there are some things that just don't belong on teh LIST, and saying that he's done more than any single person in history is beyond insulting.

Teh LISH is counterproductive if you ask me. Focus on the big achievements.

[ClarkUSA]

126. No one said "he's done more than any single person in history" so stop with the strawman argument.

You're taking offense at a figment of your own creation.

You have made it quite clear how little you think of the legal and human scope of President Obama's federally mandated LGBT achievements, despite the fact they cover every single member of the LGBT community in America and are not limited to one state. Despite that, you actually believe that former NJ governors "Jim Florio and Jon Corzine did more for not only LGB but Transgender rights than Obama has so far":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777933&mesg_id=779174

Oy vay. :eyes: