If your unhappiness with Obama is not due to race then I and others are not speaking . . .

[wndycty]

. . .about/to you when we cite that some of the progressive criticism of him is a form of subtle racism.

Look, we (Black folk) are shaped by our experiences and when we see what Melissa Harris Perry pointed out in her Nation column last week many of us (not all Black folk) are reminded that racism still exists and that it even exists in liberal/progressive circles.

Lets be honest, we are not going to agree on this. When Black folks feel something as racist we accept that many of our allies who are not Black will not see this. Furthermore when those same allies tell us what we see as racist is not racist we are not convinced.

The fact that someone is progressive/liberal does not immunize them from being racist and the fact that someone is conservative doesn't make them racist.

Criticism of President Obama is not racist. Criticism with racist undertones or criticism that holds him to a different standard than his predecessors often is racist.

So, when we call something out as racist, if you are confident in your actions don't worry about it we aren't talking about you, we must be talking about someone else.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

1. I honestly wish that the Moderators would encourage an honest dialogue on race. n/t

[vaberella]

38. I'm even scared of that. Were you hear when Prop8 went down?

Racism lives strong on DU...even when some think they're not.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. Here's Harris Perry on the Prop 8 vote, which seems fitting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcZVAlSqNbA

[Pisces]

2. It is clear that there is some racism and double standard at play. THose how deny this are closing

their eyes and ears. Just because they aren't wearing white pointy hats and yelling the N word does not mean racism isn't under the thin veil of criticism, or undermining comments of " he just doesn't understand", " he doesn't get it". We get it loud and clear, what many on this board called "The experiment" , how is someone suppose to translate that figure of speech?

Racism is alive and thriving in the Dem party, and in the repuke party it is loud and proud.

[LaydeeBug]

93. I criticized Obama until he started acting like a Democrat. I'm a minority, and not racist. nt

[JohnnyRingo]

3. I was a bit shocked in 2008 when some of my friends changed

A couple of them were union democrats who suddenly sprouted "democrat for McCain" signs in their yard. At least one of them expressed fear for his party that Hillary would be the nominee as if he hadn't even considered that it could possibly be Obama. He quickly saw value in McCain/Palin when the field narrowed to one.

I angrily confronted one friend, asking how he could go with me to a Kerry/Edwards rally and turn around to join the T-Party four short years later. I got no satisfactory answer. These friends aren't Klansmen, they don't sit around making racist comments or jokes. The racism runs through a deep artery of their very being that isn't outwardly visible. They don't openly express hatred for minorities and treat blacks and others with as much public respect as anyone could expect.

Maybe I'm being judgmental myself, but 2008 caused me to examine many of my longtime friendships anew.

[MADem]

4. Well, not to kick a hornets' nest, but I can't help but notice two things

with regard to race and gender.

1. People of color and/or women often have to work ten times as hard to get one-tenth of the credit. They also get one-tenth of the praise, and ten times the blame.

2. For sheer "watch 'em fail and see, see--I toldja so!" effect, individuals who have a vested interest in perpetuating racism/sexism (but who very earnestly pretend otherwise--like many people in the GOP) will quite ostentatiously assign an unqualified black or female person to a job, and then, when they screw up because they don't have the experience, savvy, or training to succeed, their minions (never the principal, though), carrying their water, will attempt to ascribe their failures to everyone of their race/gender. They'll then insist that they aren't racist/sexist, because they gave the person a chance, but the person was unable to do the job (of course, they made sure of that from the get-go).

I see this pattern repeated, over and over.

[These Eyes]

13. I agree...

I have long believed that the reason for so much unwarranted criticism of the president is the need to see him fail. Electing anyone other than a white male has opened up the floodgates. If President Obama is seen as a successful president, then it shatters the myth that only white men are suited for the position. Women and people of color running for president won't be seen as just novelties but as real presidential material. Now rich white men won't just have to compete with each other for the office, they'll have to compete with those who have not been part of the power structure. That's a bitter pill to swallow for some. They want their power back.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. "We must be talking about someone else"

What gives you the insight to "call something out as racist" that is justifiable on other grounds?

The liberals who voted, supported, campaigned and donated for Obama in 2008 didn't just recently notice that he's black.

[These Eyes]

6. I would like to add that if seeing something call out as racist...

Causes you to have a visceral reaction, then it may be time for some self-reflection. You feel what you feel for a reason.

[JoeyT]

61. People don't like being called things that don't apply to them.

Getting defensive over a label isn't an admission the label has merit. The offense could be caused by a person that feels their arguments are being dismissed with a convenient label.

If that were the case debates would consist of two people rapidly firing derogatory labels at one another until someone got upset and we'd declare the non-enraged person the victor.

[Supersedeas]

65. "something" -- progressive white somethings? - aren't the white somethings reacting to racism?

Reminds me of a twist on a Cosby joke.

The teacher asks for a show of hands.
"Who in here disagrees with the President's policies, raise your hands?"
A group of students raise their hands.

The teacher pauses and then asks a second question.
"Who here disagrees with the President because he is not progressive enough?"
A smaller group of student raises their hands.

The teacher then orders the white members of this smaller group to stand at the front of the class, and then declares, "I detect racism among this group" then asks the group of white progressives, "Why are all of you and your mother and the rest of your family racists?"

When one of the progressive white students standing at the front of the class dares to object, "My mother is not racist!"

The teacher lashes out, "How dare you disrespect me in my own classroom! Don't you think that I know racism when I see it. Those white progressive somethings are all just alike--their disrespectful complaints today just go to prove how racist white progressives can be. I'm glad the rest of the group standing before us was honest enough to acknowledge their racist inclinations in silence."

Another one of the white progressive female students interjects, "But you are the one who asked all of us, as a group of white students, to stand up here in front of the class."

Furious now, the teacher turns to the rest of the class as says, "See what I mean! See how viscerally, those white progressive somethings will reaction." The teacher turns to the white femail student, "Dear, I do think that it is time you did some self-reflection as to your racist behavior in my class today."

Funny, no? Visceral?

[yardwork]

86. Sounds like a scene from The Handmaid's Tale. Sounds like fascism because it is fascism.

[TheKentuckian]

76. Yeah, getting upset that someone called you a child molester means you must diddle kiddies

after all if you didn't rape babies the accusation would roll off.

Your "logic" is flawed, at best.

This little tactic is shitty and and is being used to leash white liberals. I'm not white so I'll push even harder and I encourage white liberals to not miss a beat and let this bullshit roll off but it is hurtful and makes thinking people do a double take.

Increasingly, I believe Obama's fiercest fans to be of low integrity, vicious, and single minded personality cultists.

I hope that Obama's superfriends don't reflect the character of the President but appointments like Rahm, Gibbs, Duncan, and Summers indicate the rotten apples may not fall too far from the tree.

[yardwork]

87. Thank you. The ultimate impact of this kind of accusation is to turn people away from Obama.

Reading here at DU over the past 20 hours I've been subjected to numerous insults from people who claim to want my vote. I wonder.

[EffieBlack]

102. I'm quite certain that anyone who would "turn away from Obama" because a commentator

they've never met or some anonymous person on a political message board said something they didn't like probably doesn't want to vote for him anyway and is merely looking for an excuse. I can't imagine any serious person truly basing their political choices on such a rationale.

[yardwork]

106. Then you don't know much about politics.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

8. He's the house? House what?

What exactly are you trying to say?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

23. I alerted the Mods. Hopefully they will take action. n/t

[boston bean]

14. WTF?

delete is yourself, be ashamed.

[These Eyes]

15. I don't believe you finished your statement...

He's the house what? Finish it.

[MADem]

17. I think he showed us his cards. He doesn't have to finish it.

We know 'em when we see 'em....and we've seen 'em.

It's just astounding to see that kind of shit on this board. Again.

I can never get used to it.

[These Eyes]

20. He illustrates the problem.

Any post that deals with race brings his type to the surface.

[Maraya1969]

9. When I see/read people ragging on and on about Obama I always think

about these two black men who were accomplished in their careers but told me they had to work twice as hard as a white man to get where they were. I see that with Obama. It is as if he is held to a different standard. I know I have been pissed at him and some of the things he has done but to hear on this broad sentences like, "he is a complete loser" is way out of line and unrealistic. No one said that about Clinton's failures, and he had a lot of them.

I think racism is alive and well and hidden in the back recesses in many people's brains where they can't see it. Maybe even in the back of my brain. I don't know.

[These Eyes]

18. Thank you for such an honest response.

We are simply human. We all have our stuff. The problem is when we don't want to acknowledge it.

[CakeGrrl]

25. +1000. And I'll make an observation about Professional Leftist

Jane Hamsher: I think her divide and conquer tactics play off the "otherness" of the President from a different angle than the up-front racism of the GOP/Tea Party:

Look at the concept of the notion she's pushed that "he's just not that into you". It's my opinion that this concept is much easier to adopt the less similar the target of that sentiment is to the people you're trying to convince.

I believe some people find it easier to resent or be angry at those who are less like them.

To use a non-political example, I've read fan reactions on several entertainment blogs that follow TV series. I sense a definite pattern of the fan base finding it much easier to feel animus for black characters, particularly when those characters have conflict with the (almost always) white protagonist. I may delve into specific examples in another forum, but I think these unspoken attitudes definitely exist. It should be obvious that I don't believe that all nonwhites harbor them, but I feel that people's attitudes eventually make themselves evident the more they express their thoughts.

[eridani]

50. Sure they said it about Clinton. They just didn't have internet access n/t

[Number23]

57. "It is as if he is held to a different standard."

And that was the basis of Harris Perry's article. That SOME white liberals appear to be holding this president to a different standard.

People are jumping in line to be offended by this piece and in doing so, proving Harris Perry's points a million times over.

[r0nr0ntaiwan]

63. I'm not sure.

I completely agree that there are minorities that have had to work harder than the average white male to get where they are. But I'm not sure this type of sympathy should be reserved for Obama. His father was black, but his mother and the family that raised him were white. He's the President of the United States. This is one of the hardest jobs to get, period. Yet, he accomplished this at a relatively young age without much political experience at all. Since the POTUS is the top dog of the Executive Branch of government, it would make sense that the POTUS would have some executive experience. Obama had next to none. This, on top of his relatively short political career makes me think that he didn't work as hard for the presidency as the overwhelming majority of people that not only achieved this position in the past... but ran for it. This is just my honest opinion.

[EffieBlack]

69. I wish more people just stated their disagreement with Professor Perry the way you just did

You have clearly and calmly explained why you don't agree with her and did so without attacking her motives and character or accusing her of calling you a racist.

Unfortunately, too many people here, rather than simply expressing their disagreement or explaining why they think she's wrong, viciously and personally attacked her accused her of all manner of wrongs (including, of course, playing the race card), and showing such defensiveness that it makes one wonder where they're really coming from.

Thanks so much for trying to elevate the discussion. I hope more people do just what you did.

By the way, I don't agree with you . . . :-) I don't believe that "he didn't have to work as hard for the presidency as the overwhelming majority of people" - I think he worked just as hard as anyone else did for the job. I also believe that he is being held to a different standard by some people - and that some people, including some white progressives also treat, speak about and to him with shocking condescension and patronization, as if he's a clueless child who they allowed to drive their car but now have decided that he's not up to the responsibility.

[patrice]

10. I think we need a forum on Logic and Rationalism. We have one on Religion/Theology. It would be use

full to talk as much about the details of Rationalism as we do other stuff.

[ladjf]

11. The only racial aspect of my thoughts about Obama is that through

his poor performance as President, he has set race relations back in America. It is most unfortunate that America's first black President also turned out to be one who showed little regard for most Americans, including African Americans.

Not only has he frittered away his first term, he is likely to be elected and will probably waste the second one as well.

No, I'm not suggesting that we might as well elect a Republican. They are ALL far worse. However, it would have been good if we could have run a well qualified person of any race. That, of course, will not happen.

[Empowerer]

35. "his poor performance as President, he has set race relations back in America"

Your statement is highly problematic - but also indicative of what many of us are trying to point out.

Why should the performance of one black person "set race relations back in America?" George W. Bush was a horrible president. Does that meant that America is less likely to elect a white person president again any time soon?

Even if he were the worst President in history, the only way that Barack Obama could "set race relations back" by virtue of his performance is if a substantial number of Americans assume that all blacks are the same or that the performance and behavior of one black person is a predictor of the performance and behavior of all other black people.

Which is the very essence of racial prejudice.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

42. Bingo.

[Whisp]

46. +1

[CakeGrrl]

48. +1000. THIS is the double-standard you talked about.

A white man can be a screw-up buffoon and won't be a blip on the radar.

But if the black man isn't perfect, he ruins it for his entire race.

WHY would that be?

That notion, as you implied, is the very embodiment of racist attitude.

[Whisp]

94. did Bush represent all white men?

just have to look at that question, and you see how ridiculous it is.

but it is to be taken seriously about President Obama.

says a lot, doesn't it!!
How many times have I heard Obama 'representing black people' on the stupid tv.
jeeeze.

[yardwork]

53. I agree. Well stated.

[quakerboy]

59. But thats the thing of it

A substantial number of Americans do seem quite suceptible to exhibit racial prejudice.

What do we do about it?

[ladjf]

68. Yes. It's not a matter of how things should be. It's how things are and

how could that be improved.

[joshcryer]

64. Nicely stated.

Can't wait until post-reccing exists.

[ladjf]

67. Your logic strays far from the point I was trying to make.

After years of bitter racial problems and much progress in the right direction, America made a bold move and elected an African American to be their President. His performance in that job was bound to influence the public opinion in one way or the other.

For better or worse, people tend to make generalized assumptions when forming their opinions about what they have observed. For example, I thought that H.W. Bush was bad President, then G W. Bush turned out to be even worse and the Grandfather Bush was reputed to have aided Hitler during WWII.
My conclusion was that we should avoid ever electing another member of that family. Their race was not the issue.

America is a Country of 350,000,000+ people. "Substantial numbers" of them are making assumptions about the performance of the President. Those assumptions about his race will range from one extreme to the other. His performance while in office will, in my opinion, cause real shifts in racial attitudes that were present before he took office. The fact that his actions had very little, if any, to do with the fact that he was black, more negative racial assumptions will be made. That is not how is should be but how it is.

The Tuskegee Airmen were the top performing fighter squadron of WWII. They escorted American bombers into Germany. The record for protecting the bombers was the best and as a result, they were the most often requested escorts by the bomber captains, who were unaware in many cases that the pilots were African Americans. To this day, all Americans who are familiar with their history, honor them for their achievements as courageous and highly skilled pilots.

Finally, may a say that the sooner the human race can realize that the real "real race issue" concerns the survival characteristics of the human race itself. At the rate we are going, we might succeed in ending meaningful life on Earth in a shorter time that most people would imagine.

[EffieBlack]

70. I think we all know exactly the point you were trying to make . . .

The Tuskegee Airmen? Really?

[ladjf]

79. Apparently everyone knows exactly the point I'm trying to make

except me. Please tell me, exactly what point is it that I'm trying to make?

[mkultra]

112. You are saying that he did so bad he made all black people look bad

Which is racist. Obama is an inspiration to black youth just by getting elected. He has given great speeches on race relations and has done absolutely nothing that could possible implicate his entire race.

[eridani]

52. If you wanted a progressive economic populist in 2012--

--the year to have started working on that would have been 1975 or so.

[ladjf]

89. I just wanted what I thought I had voted for, a Democratic President

who stood up for the majority of Americans rather than one who seemed to have been more aligned with the Wall Street bunch and Republicans. But, now that you mention it, a "progressive economic populist sounds pretty good. But, that will never happen again in the U.S.

[jefferson_dem]

66. Absolutely hideous comment.

On multiple levels. You should be ashamed.

[ladjf]

91. My personal criticism of President Obama had absolutely nothing

to do with the fact that he is an African American.

My comment about his ineptness "setting race relations back" stemmed not from any negative opinions I have about black people but, quite the opposite. Although I'm not an active advocate like my father was, I have always carried a deep sympathy for the treatment they have received from the time they were captured in Africa, through their terrible years in slavery in the U.S. on through the injustices they suffered all through the 20th Century.

I was very heartened by the progress made during the civil rights years and am currently appalled by the racists remarks being made by Republicans and others.

My comment about "setting race relations back" was not that I personally felt negative about black people because of his actions in office but that many Americans, who are less informed, would be inclined to generalize negatively about his race. People do tend to generalize. It would have been much better for African Americans if he had done a better job. That, of course, is simply my opinion, one with which you would probably disagree.

If you searched my posts on DU from over the past several years, you will find none, other than this one that discusses racial issues. It is a topic that is too difficult to handle. The violent responses to my simple post has shown that to be true.

Not that you would care, but, the race that I'm really worried about to the point of obsession is the "human race". Search my posts and you will find dozens of warnings I have tried to make, namely, that human conduct has become so destructive our very existence on Earth is realistically in grave danger of ending. On balance, while humans have accomplished some amazing things, they have been like a plague for life on Earth.

And, so far as who the real enemies to all Americans, it is the greedy super rich who have, by their psychotic desires to own everything, have so centralized wealth that economies no longer have enough money in circulation to be able to support commerce. Find some way to reverse this terrible situation and all people, all over the Earth would be able to prosper.

A footnote: About one third of my ancestors who were living in Scotland during the 17th Century were slaughtered and robbed by the British. African Americans aren't the only group to be the recipients of criminal abuse. If those in power want it, they will take it unless there is some entity present to stop them.

[These Eyes]

108. In other words, Obama should do more to be a credit to his race.

Is that correct?

[ladjf]

110. No, that is not what I was trying to say. My opinion that Obama's

performance in office for better or worse will cause many Americans to vary their opinions about him, be they gender, race, age, appearance, speaking ability or a multitude of attributes. In most cases, those changes in attitude were not based upon any real values.

If, as the first black President, his tenure was highly successful, it would have paved the way for the next black candidate, just as Jackie Robinson did for subsequent black baseball players. I think this is a simple and self-evident concept. But, I regret that I made the statement as it seems to have really
irritated a number of people who concluded that my remarks were racists, an accusation that has never been directed at me in my 75 years on the planet.

Obama's prime responsibility was to serve all Americans in the wisest, fairest manner possible. Whatever
influence his performance might have had on attitudes toward black leaders was definitely not a prime requirement.

[tblue]

12. There is a reverse in place also.

(I'm black too, btw.) I think a lot of us give Obama extraordinarily unwavering support because we want this brother to succeed. I consider this an unintended form of racism, too -- the 'soft bigotry of low expectations.'

He gets cut a lot of slack by some and, as you point out, almost none by others. It cuts both ways. I am hoping he succeeds but I only stand behind him to the extent that he stands behind the people. That is all I will ever promise to any politician, black, white, brown or other.

Likewise, I have close relatives and friends who are Jewish who will vote for Joe Lieberman when hell freezes over.

[Supersedeas]

103. there's always a delicate balance when it comes to those we consider family

I go there delicately after MHP's response to the use of the term "friends"

[Mr Deltoid]

16. Racist attacks against Democrats are stupid

They harm Obama.

[Frustratedlady]

19. Well, as a white person (woman), I won't hesitate to call the actions and

words of the Tea Party and Republicans racist. Certainly, there are some who are not, but the hateful code words and undertones of the rest are definitely racist.

I think they are scared. The whites are becoming the minority and they don't like it. They will tolerate participation to a point, but don't get in their faces when it comes to "running" things.

As a white woman, I can identify with Blacks and Hispanics in their struggles. Hey, we've been fighting that ceiling just like the rest. Granted, we have had an easier time of it because of our identity, but not enough.

At least now, we have our own names at the top of our obituary. We used to be referred to as "the wife of" -- get my drift? We've stepped up in that category, if you can call it that.

[CakeGrrl]

22. But do you not believe there are ANY self-identified left/Dem/Liberal/Progressive

who are capable of harboring racist attitudes or committing actions influenced by race?

An example that another poster personally observed was that of friends who had self-identfied as lifelong Dems/Liberals...until Barack Obama became the top of the 2008 ticket. Suddenly, they gave more consideration to crossing over to McCain/Palin.

A more public example is that of Lynn Forrester DeRothschild, a stalwart Hillary supporter until Obama won the primary. She then crossed over to supporting the GOP, and of late was putting money behind Jon Huntsman for 2012.

What possible reason could there be for such so-called lifelong liberals to suddenly switch parties, particularly when the candidates were so similar ideologically?

In that scenario, there's only one explanation that makes sense.

[Frustratedlady]

41. No, I know of no Dems that did that.

I had friends who supported Hillary until her people started acting up and they switched to Obama. I originally supported Biden, but gave our votes to Obama when Biden didn't pull enough to qualify.

All of my friends rallied around Obama AND, I might add, supported him even more than they normally did because of the battle he had before him because of race.

Maybe I have an unusual mix of friends, but I'm proud to say they are stalwart Democrats and decent people.

The friends who are Republicans are the ones having major problems. I don't criticize them for their situation, but I smile a lot.

[eridani]

54. DeRothschild a liberal? You can't possibly be serious

No Labels is not liberal. It is a neoliberal front for the 1% rich fuckers who are destroying our economy. "Sensible policies of both parties" = fucking over the bottom 99% permanently. What she wants as president is a whore for the ruling class who isn't totally batshit crazy like Perry or Bachman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Forester_de_Rothschild

Lady de Rothschild was a major fund raiser for Hillary Rodham Clinton's 2008 Presidential bid and has received attention for endorsing John McCain for President. She has stepped down as a member of the Democratic National Committee platform committee. Most recently, she has announced her desire to form a "centrist" group that combines what she views as "the sensible policies of both parties." Although this has not publicly been confirmed, there is speculation that this group is No Labels. On June 22, 2011, she hosted a fundraiser for Jon Huntsman, Jr.'s presidential campaign.

[Ganja Ninja]

21. So you want to apologize to anyone that may have been offended ...

except all those white liberals that hate Obama because of his race.

Got it. :banghead:

[wndycty]

24. I ain't apologizing

:kick:

[These Eyes]

26. The lack of comprehension is just astounding!

[mmonk]

27. Agreed. I'm pretty much known around DU as a critic.

However, I'm a former Obama state delegate and pretty much saw it with my own two eyes (or ears) when the race whittled down between Obama and Clinton and it made me angry and disapponted.

[Beacool]

28. Which liberal bloggers or pundits have criticized Obama in racial undertones?

"Criticism of President Obama is not racist. Criticism with racist undertones or criticism that holds him to a different standard than his predecessors often is racist."

BTW, I'm not referring to anonymous posters commenting on boards.

:shrug:

[These Eyes]

32. So, you don't mean yourself?

[Beacool]

33. Do I have a blog, am I a liberal journalist or pundit?

I specifically clarified what I meant.

:eyes:

[These Eyes]

36. I don't know. That's why I asked.

But why the specification? Why not use examples from anonymous posters?

[Beacool]

37. Because the internet gives cover to people due to its anonymity.

Therefore, some people will write anything knowing that they won't be identified. A blogger, pundit or journalist has a name attached to his/her writings and can be held accountable.

As for me personally, I don't type anything in any forum that I would not say to someone face to face.

;)

[These Eyes]

39. Good enough. :)

[aka-chmeee]

29. While I freely admit

that I know myself to have racist thoughts, I do not partipate in denial but keep it out in front of me where I can keep an eye on it and keep it from transforming from thought to action. I am indeed unhappy with President Obama's performance but I wouldn't care if he was pink and green and grew fangs when the moon is full, hell, I wouldn't care if he was a Republican as long as he acted like a progressive, something that (since his election) he has had a lot of trouble doing. There are some signs of life in the man and I sincerely hope that it is just the beginning of a long lasting trend. As things stand, I will again support him in the 2012 election: I just would like to do it with some enthusiasm.

[WhiteTara]

30. I have fought the same battle as a woman

and I know that your struggle for equity and equality are much greater than mine. I have the "privilege" of being white, so I have been given many passes others haven't.

I have been reading about all the terrible things Obama has done, and then I read the actual legislation, and it seems much different than the criticism. Now, mind you, I hate a couple of his cabinet picks..Monsanto Vilsack if my most hated, followed by Ken Salazar. Geithner is no prize and Summers is an asshole. He should have cleaned house in the DOJ, but I think I understood his reticence. I also think that he didn't realize how bad the money situation was and thought that he had most of the problem covered with the stimulus and that's why he moved on to healthcare/insurance! Yeah, and sorry it wasn't single payer, but it's begun.

Sometimes I wish he would bring out his nasty bitch white side; but he remains steadfastly a gentleman. And I do hear what Melissa H.P. says; I had to chide a friend about complaining that "Obama caves all the time" with a reminder that is a RW implanted talking point. He simply finds another way to get where he is going.

[Jim Lane]

31. The problem is that there are always confounding factors.

I've criticized both Obama and Bill Clinton for governing from the right wing of the Democratic Party and largely disdaining its left wing. I do, however, feel somewhat more irritation at Obama. Is that because he's black (and I'm evincing unconscious racism) or because my hopes for him were higher after a campaign that emphasized "Hope and Change"? Also in the mix are factors that neither President could directly control. For example, Obama came into office after eight years of right-wing extremism, far worse than what preceded Clinton, so there was more that needed changing, notably the worst economic situation since the Depression. In that context, Obama's triangulation has been more harmful than Clinton's.

I don't think my reaction is affected by racism. Nevertheless, even I myself can't tell you about my thought process with complete confidence. (I think racism is wrong so I'd be naturally biased against seeing it in myself.) For someone who's not inside my skull to try to make those judgments is even more futile.

[Mr Deltoid]

34. Are blanket accusations of racism, racist?

?

[vaberella]

40. Let me clue you into something. There are NO blanket accusations of racism.

I get fuckin' upset when people make that claim. Just like the OP said, "We (black folks) are defined by our experiences." Understand that before you say shit. While one Black person may not see the racism in a statement---4 other Black people do.

You cannot sit there and assume that someone is making blanket accusations. I overheard two women speaking, one was of East Asian descent and the other a White woman. They were both talking about a play they were doing for children. The East Asian woman named a particular boy of African descent. The White Woman goes on and on about "Oh yes, we don't get many children of color. He's so well behaved. So nice." As though it's shocking that a Black child could be well behaved and nice. No one else who ever heard the conversation said anything. But myself and another Black woman who overheard looked at each other and it was understood. And she was like, "They don't even know how racist they sound." Which it is. It's propagating a stereotype that is uncalled for. I was even surprised the woman of East Asian descent didn't say anything when the white woman went on and on about East Asian children and children of color.

So don't sit there and say there are blanket accusations. Find out of the persons experience and why they find it racist or racialized and then you might be clued in.

[Supersedeas]

78. Does one White Woman's comment justify lashing out and generally labeling white liberals

racists.

True, maybe we need to delve in the MHP's experiences to determine whether her published blanket statement about white liberals who express some disapproval of Obama in a "poll" amounts to racism.

Maybe, we are all required to delve. All of us.

Maybe, we should also delve into the experience of The White Lady regarding her off-hand comment to determine whether her blanket statement about child behavior has any merit.

Or....or like with the example you provided with your account of The White Woman, we know that the implications of her 'blanket statement' would not be justified EVEN IF she personally had experiences that she might point to as support for her 'feelings' about child behavior. The White Woman's experiences would simply be misplaced in the context of her 'general' belief about child behavior.

Aren't the folks pushing back on MHP's comments saying the same thing? Note too, that MHP (in her article) is not relying on her personal experiences, but instead points to nonspecific poll numbers as support for her conclusion that white progressive support for the President is lagging because white liberals are racists. Those poll numbers may well reveal some lagging support, but reliance on poll numbers also does not justify the blanket racist charge leveled at all white liberals who disagree with the President, any more than if The White Woman could point to some personal experiences as support for her broad blanket statement about child behavior.

It could be that your reaction to the White Woman's comment is similar to the reactions to MHP's comments about white liberals, even if those comments weren't directed at any specific person. The White Woman wasn't specifically talking to you and MHP wasn't specifically talking to me. Yet, it is the overall generality (the blanket/sterotypical nature) of those comments which makes both the White Woman's comment and MHP's piece so upsetting.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Whisp]

43. it is that simple, isn't it? K&R

[Enrique]

44. i don't care if they're not talking about me

if they're saying something that's not true about other people I have a problem with that too. And it's not just liberals either. If conservatives are falsely accused of something I have a problem with that too.

[Vattel]

45. Some liberal/progressive critics of Obama are racist

and so are some liberal/progressive defenders of Obama. I don't see any pattern of racism in progressive critiques of Obama. That would be important to identify if it existed.

[Supersedeas]

83. Remembers me of how Dubya would respond, "Some people say" followed by a non-sequitur

and thereby, President Bush could dismiss an entire line of criticism with one well placed strawman or another, and by relying on that one extreme unsubstantiated statment, President Bush could avoid any further discussion of the issue.

It is a perfect rhetorical device for blunting, if not silencing criticism from a particular constituency. Bush used the technique well during his term.

[Vattel]

90. Wow. I didn't realize my remarks were so ambitious.

Kidding aside, I couldn't have committed a non-sequitur because I didn't make an inference. And I couldn't have introduced a stawman because I didn't even attempt to characterize anyone's argument. And I guess I don't see the need to substantiate my claim that I don't see a pattern of racism in liberal/progressive criticisms of Obama. Maybe you do see such a pattern, but I don't. Perry thinks she sees such a pattern, but she doesn't really offer any serious argument that there is such a pattern. (Sorry, I am not going to bother to break down her argument point by point to prove that.)

[Supersedeas]

99. I don't see a pattern either. Thus, my point about those who insinuate a pattern

by using the "some will say" or "some are '______'" language to insuate a pattern, when none exist.

Vattel, you weren't ambiguous at all. In terms of who the argument was directed at, it would appear that I am the ambiguous one.

[Vattel]

100. Oops, sorry. I misunderstood. Now I understand and agree.

[Marnie]

47. What Harris is claiming is that Whites are losing faith

in Obama because he is Black.

But she would also have to mean that we are losing faith in him because he is White, because he is as White as he is Black, probably more so since his Black parent dumped him.

So Harris' premise, stated with no facts to back it up, is ridiculous,
It is also divisive and destructive.

What is the point of being nonracist, even if it is an intellectual decision and not yet an inherited instinct, if Whites as a group are going be be accused of being racist.

The logic this article uses, and that Harris uses is circular, it applies either to us all or only to those who truly think and act in a racist manner. And those of us 100% Honkies who elected Obama did not act in a racist manner.

So why is Harris, like Obama and the WH now insulting us and calling us opprobrious names?
How is their treatment of us any different than say Sarah Palin's, or Rush Limbaugh's.


"So, when we call something out as racist, if you are confident in your actions don't worry about it we aren't talking about you, we must be talking about someone else."
That statement can not stand as it assumes that racism is both joint and several. But race is a shared, joint, genetic trait so it cannot be severally applied. If you judge Caucasians as racists than calling Whites racists means all of us.

So you and Harris are making divisive factually baseless comments about a racial group, which you have every right to do, but don’t hide behind the “But my Whites are good Whites.” defense.

[nashville_brook]

55. beautifully said.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[These Eyes]

104. Oh my Gawd!

"But she would also have to mean that we are losing faith in him because he is White, because he is as White as he is Black, probably more so since his Black parent dumped him.".

Your statements are a classic example of what the OP is talking about -- and I mean the entire post! Yet I doubt if you read it over you would see an issue.

[Number23]

111. I said something similar and my post was deleted

I can't figure out what astounds me more. This person's seeming obsession with how the president self-identifies, or the fact that no matter how racist and ignorant his/her comments are, there is always someone there to +1 or high five them.

[eridani]

49. Of course at some level progressives and liberals share in endemic racism

However, racism has jackshit to do with criticizing neoliberal economic policies, IMO.

[yardwork]

51. I accept that there is plenty of racism around. I see it.

There were horrific racist slogans and signs during the 2008 election and there are horrific racist campaigns against Obama now. None of those people ever voted for Obama.

To dismiss criticism of Obama among those who supported him in 2008 by saying that we're all racists is a poor strategy for two reasons: (1) it makes a lot of Obama supporters mad, and (2) it ignores some real issues that are bothering progressives.

The goal is to reelect Obama. At least that's my goal. Our actions should be focused on how to achieve that goal.

[Number23]

56. White pundits have noticed the same thing

With nary the drama, wailing and rendering of flesh that we've seen on DU the last few days.

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/msnbc-s-chris-matthews-racism-behind-obama-s-falling-popularity-among-whites

Richard Wolffe from NBC (??) has said the same.

The really extreme OVER reaction to Harris Perry's piece is astounding. The same people that ate up Cornel West's bigoted trash (Obama fears free black men) are now wailing in agony because a black woman had the nerve to question whether some of the criticism and drop in support for the president from whites, particularly white liberals, was based on racism. A VALID question that some are simply petrified that she had the nerve to even ask.

[EffieBlack]

71. And we all know why the difference . . .

[Supersedeas]

85. Wolfe might have noted that it wasn't a question, but a conclusion.

[JoeyT]

60. That actually seems fair.

I don't see evidence of racism among the left quite as often as I see brogressives*, but they're there.
While I'm not white, I'm not AA either, and racism against different races probably takes different forms, and may be more difficult for a minority to spot against a different minority.

I still disagree with Melissa Harris Perry about Clinton not getting as much crap from the left. Clinton got huge amounts of crap, and the internet wasn't used as much for political discussion back then. The closest thing I can think of to DU during Clinton's presidency would be some of the usenet groups. Clinton got huge amounts of grief there, it was just less obvious because there were less people reading it.

*http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brogressive

[ellisonz]

62. Agreed.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. When we gay people call someone out as a bigot what then?

It is telling to us that you have lectured us on how and when we are allowed to be offended by bigots, and also you have pontificated on exactly how we should be expressing ourselves. You have never simply said 'well, if all those gay people say it is bigoted, we should listen to them'. No, what you say is 'yes McClurkin was wrong, BUT gay people have to....' and so forth. You also insist constantly that Obama should never be called a bigot or a homophobe, although he is clear in his opposition to equality, he employed gay hating preachers, he says we are not 'sanctified' like straights are. So he walks like a duck, talks like a duck, says he is a duck but don't call him a duck....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7989712

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7991112
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8028780
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3630003&mesg_id=3630003
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3679677

[QC]

73. +1!

[Vattel]

74. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

98. I note the utter and total silence of the OP

when presented with his own past works in regard to the autonomy of opinion for minority groups.

[yardwork]

107. cric-kets

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleBlue]

82. Maybe a lot of us aren't happy about Obama because of the economy

and the fact that he didn't introduce higher taxes on the rich to fund a job stimulus when it could actually pass, ie back in 2009. Or perhaps rein in the banks instead of feeding them.

He is just a politician who is desperate to hold on to his position to me. That's all. He squandered everything because he believes in nothing except reelection.

I could similarly claim that because you're black, you're blinded to his failings. But that would likely be an attack on your person and not an argument against his policies, so I won't. Take a look at yourself.

PS- Harris-Perry is a moron and your typical professional victim. A left-wing, more intelligent version of Newsbusters.

[redsoxrudy]

84. What a load of bulls#@t!

Speaking as white liberal, of course it makes me angry. I worked my ass off to help get him elected, so that is why we are so angry with him. Not because we just woke up and realized he is black, but because we have invested blood, sweat and tears working for him and we feel betrayed. Yes there are racist elements of the Democratic party, but I HIGHLY doubt that this subset lies in the liberal wing of the party as Ms. Harris-Perry suggests.

[wndycty]

88. And why are you calling the OP "a load of bullshit?"

As I stated if your dissatisfaction is not tied to Obama's race you weren't being called out. . .or did you miss that part?

[bertman]

92. Non-white people can also have racist biases and viewpoints,

as was illustrated well by Professor Harris-Perry's commentary.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

95. ...and the logic applies that so can whites, liberals, conservatives, and so on...

so what's your point?

[bertman]

96. my point is: her commentary blaming white liberals for criticizing/abandoning President Obama

is a racist perspective.

Why you had to throw in your little " . . . logic applies blah blah blah . . . " is beyond my comprehension.

[EffieBlack]

101. Delete

Responded to the wrong post

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[last_texas_dem]

105. I'd like to know to whom those claiming white liberal critics of Obama

are closet racists are speaking then.

I surely wouldn't mind seeing at least one particular quote from one particular critic and an argument as to why that particular person's argument was race-based and why that particular person is a closet racist.

All of these general statements about how common racially-based motivations are in white liberals' criticisms of Obama with little to nothing in the way of support don't really seem to be informative or helpful in any way.

[chill_wind]

109. A current example of a "whom"

and how it's supposed to operate, "because we're not talking about you."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2015015&mesg_id=2015055

This is pernicious stuff and deserves to be challenged.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2015015&mesg_id=2017703

[SadPanda]

113. We are surrounded in our arguments by racism, by no fault of our own...

If this President was white the Republicans would have never challenged him in the ways they did. They "circled the wagons" on us. But instead of fighting them we fought ourselves. Despite their strategy we pointed fingers at ourselves and Obama. It's about time we pointed our fingers at the Republicans. Imagine what a 2nd term Obama looks like. With no electoral restrictions?