I don't know if the bill should pass or not

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

I don't know if the bill should pass or not.

Here's what I do know.

We came into power and in a matter of months managed to create a situation where a republican party on life support finds itself with a real chance to re-do 1994.

This isn't a fucking joke. This isn't a student council election or American Idol or choosing a Prom Queen. This entire political situation is a real-world disaster that will affect real-world people.

Everyone deserves blame, no doubt. But blame most sensibly attaches to the person who could have possibly done something to avert disaster... the person with the most power. That is why we blame head coaches, CEOs, captains of ships and generals.

When a CEO takes over a thriving company (as the Democratic Party was in 2008) and it goes bankrupt within a year or two it is theoretically possible that he did everything right, but it's an extraordinary claim.

Our problems were not beyond anticipation. In fact, everyone who is not a blithering idiot saw all of this stuff coming a mile away.

Republicans would not cooperate. The economy was heading for double-digit unemployment even with the tame stimulus. The American people were not suddenly committed progressives but were temporarily following a silly, transparent marketing scam out of shear desperation. And since none of that foolishness was required to win the presidency it's a self-inflicted wound. Anyone other than Kucinich and Gravel would have won the Presidency in a walk.

The tent-show revival approach that tends to end in bitter disillusionment wasn't necessary to elect a Democrat, it was necessary to elect a particular Democrat. (Tent shows are held in tents for a reason... you blow into town, peddle heaven for three loud days and then move to another town before reality reasserts itself.)

And surprise, surprise... people desperate enough to seek faith-healers and motivational gurus are serial suckers. They will drop your vapid con for another vapid con without turning a hair.

What's to be done? Maybe nothing. But perhaps at some future point a critical mass of people will have been burned often enough that they seek something other than quasi-religious hokum.

Nah. That won't happen either.

I'll let Paul Simon sum it up for me... he's a lot more talented then I am:

And I don't know a soul who's not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered
or driven to its knees
but it's all right, it's all right
for we lived so well so long
Still, when I think of the
road we're traveling on
I wonder what's gone wrong
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/American-Tune-lyrics-Paul-Simon/47872910DB0822C54825698A000B45AC

[Ozymanithrax]

1. Pass the bill...

Send it to conference committee...
Pass the Conference committe report...
Get the President to sign it...

Now, look at how we can improve on the bill, make a list of the things that don't work, and work on changing them, one thing at a time.

Incremental change is how things work in our country...

I am a proud incrementalist...

[DJ13]

2. Pass the crap

We can use seasonings to try and mask the taste later.

[Ozymanithrax]

3. We simply must agree to disagree on this issue.

[griffi94]

4. the problem with

passing a bad bill with the intent to fix it later is that the insurance industry isn't very likely to go along with any fix that cuts into the bottom line. it's not like the lobbyist are going to go away.
any later amendments will be loaded down with crap or killed outright.
what will happen will be a slow bleeding to death of the middle class who are already stretched way too thin.
the sad fact is that as long as the federal government is a wholly owned subsidiary of big business incremental change doesn't have anymore of a chnce than broad sweeping change.
this is imho just another dog and pony show designed to further transfer money from our hands to theirs.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. Our founding fathers should not have ratified the Constitution with the intention to fix it.

They should not have passed the Civil Rights act of 1964 without provisions for women or the disabled with the intent of improving the bill later.

They should not have passed Medicare or Medicaid with the intent of improving them later.

Yes, we would be much better off without those 27 amendments, trying to find perfection in civil rights, or any flawed health care systems. The only way to go is to write a perfect bill and curse congress for not passing it.

[griffi94]

6. sorry

i didn't realize that corporate money was involved in either of those things.
the problem isn't the theory...the problem is that todays reality is that most of our elected reps are beholden to corporate money. to expect them to fix anything that will cut into their profits is unrealistic.
the proposition that we'll fix this later assumes that the next group of elected reps will not be as beholden to corporate cash as the current one.
almost none of todays public servants do it for service. they do it fot power and influence. the government as it stands now isn't anything like the government you studied in civics class.
as one poster said yesterday...it's not a democracy, it's an auction.

[Ozymanithrax]

8. Todays elected officials, including Berfie Sanders, that there is a lot of good in ths bill...

They know it is not a corporate give way .

They know it can be improved.

They know that no pefect bill ever existed.

The bill will bring insurance to millions and reduce health care costs. It will be improved over time.

[griffi94]

9. yeah ok

it will be made better...like nafta

[Ozymanithrax]

10. made better like the Constitution or the Civil Rights act of 1964...

That is the way our system works.

[griffi94]

13. nope

that was the way our system worked. anything like reform is gutted.
think no child left behind. it was supposed to improve education but after the concessions to free market educators charter schools testing companies and all the other corporate pork. there wsn't much actual improvement.

look i get you really want this to be a good first step and eventually wind up as real reform. well i'd like that too but as long as corporate cash is tied up in our government it's just not realistic to expect any upgrades...i refer you to nafta again.
after the reagon bush years i wanted bill clinton to be for the people but the reality is his proposals did more damage longterm than good.
i just don't think service to the people can co-exist with service to corporate paymasters.

[LastNaturalist]

7. It SHOULD. And there should be no debate over the question you proposed.

Liberals supposedly care about helping people. This bill will help a lot of people. It's got perfect, or great, but it is good. It should pass, and true liberals should support it (despite their well-thought misgivings).

[TheKentuckian]

11. Good for what corporate profits? Setting up a triangle of big insurance, employers, and the IRS

that ignores the individual except to dictate they without that persons input dictate to what private for profit takes their money and call it's self reform.

What are these structures that we can build off of? What are these improvements we can make later that make this so worthwhile now? What indicates that we will have power to change anything or to even preserve what (if anything) works in this?

If you just think an entitlement is what is needed then fine, admit it and move on without making false claims of reform.

This bill fucking sucks just like it did when it came out of Finance and I bet most defenders said it sucked at the time and now due to the abortion language it is probably worse than the day Baucus sheepishly came forward with the piece of shit. Hell, we can't even affect the funding mechanisms and will be forced to pay this our damn selves with surrendered wages.

Why the fuck should generational theft and literal fascism be passed? I'm disgusted by the emotional blackmail here that says no matter how many pounds of flesh ate demanded by the corporate bigwigs we must happily hand them over so they will take 31 million full price customers.

We are paying these assholes but still must beg and give up concessions.

[LastNaturalist]

12. Get over yourself and think about real people whom you never met, whom this bill will help.

[salguine]

14. if you don't know whether it should pass or not, that should tell you something.