The women accusing Herman Cain..

[vaberella]

I have a problem with the one that came out publicly. I don't like the idea of blaming the victim...but when this victim made her statement I was a bit appalled. Rather than saying..."No." or saying that she said "No." Instead she says...that she told him, as he brought her head down to his crotch..."Woooh...what are you doing? You know I have a boyfriend." <---What?!

If a man had his hand in my crotch and putting my head down to give him head...I would not be saying, "You know I have a boyfriend." I would be so disgusted that someone did this and I would, if not report him...scream No and twist his penis with my hands. There is no "I have a boyfriend."

Something about that statement seems unlikely for me. I've been in dangerously similar situations---not with a boss but a former male friend. Fisticuffs and yells of No was more common than..."I have a boyfriend." Why would that statement stop someone.

I hate sexual harassment and if true...the man deserves to fry. Although it seems Repubs don't care about that. However the statement above by the woman irritates the hell out of me.

*Thanks to Skittles for suggesting changing the title.*

[Skittles]

1. hey vaberella

I'd find the nearest baseball bat....see, gals like you and me know how to handle sexual harassment - but a lot of women are very timid and are taught to "be polite" - especially around people of authority - I know it sucks but that's how it is

by the way, you should call 'em Cain's accusers, instead of making them sound like a harem :o

[vaberella]

5. Sorry about that. I'll change the title..it does sound like a harem.

Yeah....I was violated when I was younger and I mean rather violently---and my reaction was not about a boyfriend. It was screaming and yelling and doing something to say what the fuck...not "You know I have a boyfriend."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

2. Since she didn't do & say what you would in that situation,

you doubt it happened. You're a genius.

[MADem]

3. +1! nt

[vaberella]

4. Nope...that's not what I'm saying. I've been in a similar situation.

A boyfriend doesn't enter my mind. And I doubt her statements for other reasons...but something about that statement just rubs me the wrong way. But of course...I knew your reaction would be the response I would get.

[pnwmom]

7. Every person is different and reacts differently. That was what popped out of her mouth,

probably because her boyfriend was the one who'd suggested she meet with Cain, so he was on her mind for lots of reasons.

But yeah, you would have handled the situation more directly. That doesn't make her less truthful about what happened -- just less direct and assertive than you are. She didn't want to insult him, so she was trying to act like she might have been interested in him if she didn't have a boyfriend. Even though she probably felt like throwing up.

[vaberella]

12. I'm not saying she's lying.

And I realize everyone reacts differently. However, it did make me wary of her statements. I also had similar feelings about Anita Hill...all in all I believed her, but I was wary because this is a several she said/he said situation. And sadly many women make allegations like this falsely. We had Gennifer Flowers who loved being a celebrity during that Clinton fiascos.

[pnwmom]

15. If you're not saying she's lying, then what are you "wary" about?

I think your wariness is due to your view that she MIGHT be lying, and you think that because her reaction wasn't as assertive as yours would have been.

I don't know for sure that she's telling the truth, though she seems credible to me; however, I do know that whether or not she is telling the truth can't be judged on the basis of what words popped out of her mouth immediately after the incident. She did make it very clear to him that she didn't appreciate his actions, and she had him drive her home

[vaberella]

23. I'm saying that I don't know if she's lying or not.

It's rather simple.

[mwb970]

29. You're funny! /nt

[vaberella]

41. Whatever...

I'm always on the fence when accusations---aside from the ones who did go for the lawsuits---come out of the wood work in plethora's.

[Tunkamerica]

17. You discounting her reaction based on her reaction makes me wary of your statements.

I react much differently than even my best friends would to similar situations. I know my last girlfriend was much more likely to say "whoa, buddy. what are you doing?" than find and then twist the guys dick (as you suggested.) I found the account believable. Maybe you don't.

[vaberella]

24. I have issues with it. Yeah.

I mean someone made a good point on the thread that many women have learned to mention other men like a boyfriend when someone is harassing them. As a way to dissuade the unwanted attentions of other men. That's a valid point. In my world and upbringing that wasn't the case. My mother raised me to depend on myself---so saying oh..."I have a boyfriend." would never have entered my head...so I normally fight back and yell and scream no and stop.

[Tunkamerica]

33. And raised to doubt any account that doesn't jibe with your own experience.

[vaberella]

40. Fine, yes. Is there a problem with that?

Although others have given a great explanation that never occurred to me. In any event...I'm always wary of any accusations because we can't be sure. You believe her over Herman Caine...why? She has her own evidence and opinions and others he has his own. It's the same thing with Clinton's interpretation versus the other women's thoughts. Or Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill. No one knows who's really telling the truth. Although in Clinton's case...he did admit to his crimes...sort of.

[pnwmom]

52. Yes, there's something wrong with that. It's showing a lack of empathy.

Try to put yourself in her shoes -- and in Anita's shoes -- instead of only judging them by the way YOU would have responded.

This is an entirely different thing from saying we can't know for sure who is telling the truth here -- I agree with you on that. That's a matter of logic and evidence, and we don't have enough yet (although the fact that she told 2 other people about the encounter at the time, and that they've signed sworn statements about this, does help her case)

It's not the fact that you think there's some doubt that is wrong, but your basis for saying you mistrust her -- that she didn't react as forcefully as you would have. She's not you. And she can be truthful without reacting just as you would.

[pnwmom]

49. Well good for you. But why would it be fair for you to judge others negatively

who have a different temperament and different experiences and a different mother -- and whose reaction is to try to placate the more powerful man rather than fight back?

They're no more likely to be lying about this than you would be.

[karynnj]

57. The Flowers analogy is not similar - she had a long term affair with Bill Clinton

For Flowers, that was a conquest and her claim to fame. In addition, your comment implies she was lying, when in fact, in the early days of the Flowers crisis, it was Clinton who lied and repeatedly adjusted his story. The only thing still in question is the duration of their affair which Flowers may have exaggerated - or Clinton could have minimized. I do not automatically give either more credibility on this.

This woman is not coming forward as a long time mistress, but as a victim of sexual assault.

[Mist]

6. Women learn at an early age that sometimes a man will back off only if he thinks

there's another man involved.

[vaberella]

9. Huh...okay. I never thought of that.

In my case...I just kept screaming, no.

[karynnj]

59. Consider that this was a man she knew and respected and who was in a position of power

Then consider that her response resulted in Cain ending his assault. We don't know what her next action would have been had he persisted.

This suggests to me that her reaction accurately assessed the situation. Though it obviously had to be a revolting experience, it was far short of what you seemed to be describing in your case - where simply saying - in any way - that this is not a relationship you want would have worked.

It is entirely likely that, at minimum, she may have depended on getting a reference from him to counter having been fired from her last job. She and Cain had vested interests in this ending with both "forgetting" about his assault.

Also, consider that from her story, she and her boy friend thought she had enough of a business relationship with Cain that she could reach out to him as a mentor to help her find another job in the field. This is how many people do find openings that are not yet public and is why it is reasonable that she flew to DC to meet him. The fact that he had sat with her and her boyfriend at a convention makes the comment more understood. She likely thought there was mutual professional respect and likely she was stunned when he acted as he did. Mentioning her boy friend could have even been a way to make Cain see her as the business professional with a boyfriend, who attended the conference with him. (I know I am stating this badly - the point being that she was likely not as afraid of him as you were of your attacker and she tried .)

[ArnoldLayne]

19. Your right now that you mentioned it.

[lamp_shade]

8. That bothered me too. I like to think I would have bloodied his goddam face; however, when I

think back long ago to being in similar situations, I'm almost ashamed of my stupid reactions. I've never been very good at clever comebacks... perhaps she isn't either. :hi:

[vaberella]

11. Hiya...

Yeah, I understand. I've been a bit dumb in the past, but no and stop has always been the forefront. I realize not everyone reacts the same initially. She did say stop afterwards...but another poster made the comment of saying that many women learn early by mentioning another man tends to make said attacker back off. I never thought of that...

[KeepItReal]

10. She needed Cain's help finding a job. Maybe her form of rebuff let him save face.

Instead of slapping him and ruining any chance of this high-powered guy helping her, she played it off by saying she had a boyfriend.

Maybe she thought Cain would not be as offended by a "I have a boyfriend" response, as opposed to a response showing exactly how repulsed she was to his actions.

[vaberella]

13. Maybe. n/t

[lillypaddle]

16. I think you hit it on the head

That was my first thought, too

[hlthe2b]

14. Most women are ingrained with the social expectation of "Politeness"

I am not at all surprised that a young woman would not know how to react and while firmly refusing the advance, might well stop short of aggressively rebuffing the man in a potentially insulting way (no matter how deserved). I'm actually surprised that so many women would think a young, inexperienced woman would necessarily be willing to be that assertive--while certainly rebuffing the advance. In my experience (both personal and with young women I know today), that just isn't likely. Certainly, as they become more mature and experienced I think most women would not give a damn how they "offended" the man, but when younger?....

[vaberella]

27. Uh...I was sexually assaulted when I was 16.

I reacted even rather aggressively. It could be because that's what my mother taught me, or because I'm from New York. But when aggression is used...I don't see how politeness fits into the mix. I mean my fight or flight instinct would result in me fighting and trying to flight. Since that's what I've done.

[hlthe2b]

39. There is a line that points to a very real threat of rape that I believe elicts

the very fight or flight instinct that you describe and which I think would be instinctive in nearly all of women. You assume that Cain was so aggressive as to elicit that response. Based on the woman's description, I think she felt it was not and that while inappropriate, his behavior did not rise to the level of what you describe. While surprised by his level of assertiveness, it appears she did not feel threatened.

I'm very sorry for your experience. I can understand why your threshold for response might be a bit lower as a result.

[vaberella]

71. I don't know.

Let's go by her own words. He stuck his finger in her vagina and then started pushing her head down to his penis...that's aggressive to me.

[chelsea0011]

18. That's the statement that makes me believe her.

If this is all a lie, she never would have come into that conference with that as her statement. It sounded very real and truthful to me. Cain will now come out with a different story when the media pieces this all together and can place her with Cain that weekend, can show he upgraded her hotel, and her witnesses back her story up. And when Cain changes his story, buh-bye.

[ArnoldLayne]

20. Something sounded odd to me when I heard the response she gave him.

I believe her but I would think if I was a woman I'd say "Stop it what the hell or what the Fuck you think you're doing".

[msanthrope]

21. Women have learned that being 'too assertive' when rejecting a male sexually

can result in physical violence. Much better to turn him down, but give him a respectable out.

Even when you want to find the nearest baseball bat.

[vaberella]

25. Is that the case really?

Because I wasn't taught to do that or even think that. My mum was like you take as much of him out as you possibly can as he tries to do take you out. So I was yelling and said no and stop... I think that's a blanket statement you made that can't be said to be 100% factual in even most cases.

[msanthrope]

38. Yes. That is the case. Your methods may work in some situations,

but not all. Have you wondered why you are so emotionally invested in the type of response she gave? I'm just happy she avoided further assault.

[Tunkamerica]

22. quote:"Woooh...what are you doing? "

[vaberella]

26. That's what she said. What's your point? n/t

[Tunkamerica]

32. He said: if I was a woman I'd say "Stop it what the hell or what the Fuck you think you're doing".

she said: "Woooh...what are you doing? " Minus the cursing it's pretty similar. To doubt the account because it lacks 1 or 2 of the curse words you would use seems strange.

[pnwmom]

53. I think she was trying to placate the more powerful, older man

who she'd come there thinking might be willing to help her find a job. So she tried to placate him. She pretended that she was saying no because of the boyfriend, even though she wouldn't have been interested in being assaulted under any circumstances.

[mwb970]

28. I don't get this.

You would do something different (and weird), so she's lying. Gosh, vaberella, I hear about a LOT of things people do differently from me. Are they all lying too?

:shrug:

[boston bean]

30. It is exactly what makes me believe it more. nt

[glowing]

31. Actually, a lot of women probably have had sex with the cretin to get ahead in the past.

She was asking a favor of the man. She didn't want him on her bad side. So, she used her boyfriend as the reason for being unavailable.. If she was single, perhaps, then she would be "welcome" of his advances, and may actually have slept with him.

I'm not sure what year this was? Does anyone know? I haven't been following this story. To me Herman Cain is such a non-candidate its not even funny. Actually, I don't think the GOP are running anyone they feel is viable enough to unseat President Obama. Yeah, there's a few conservative tools who will push for a President, but I believe they are really trying to maintain the House and take over the Senate... then it wouldn't actually matter who was in the seat? They have been effective in destroying this country at the present moment.

Really, I think 2016 is when they will pull out their big guns. You know Jeb Bush is chomping at the bit to get into office. If they can make the next 4 yrs of a Democratic President unable to get anything done, people may get amnesia again and re-elect a Bush to try to get things moving.. And we all know Jeb is the smart Brother.

Herman Cain is a deflection off the party for being old, white, rich men. Michelle Bachman serves in a similar manner to make "women" look like they have a place in the party as well.

[vaberella]

42. That's even more disturbing. Wow. n/t

[lamp_shade]

47. SAY WHAT? "If she was single, perhaps, then she would be "welcome" of his advances, and may

actually have slept with him." Really?????

[Mass]

34. Your reactions are yours. Hers are hers.

I feel wary that you do not trust this woman just because her reactions were different from yours. It is sad, and also explains why sexual assault is so hard to convict. If the woman does not fight, she is seen as a lying whore or a liar. Sad.

[vaberella]

45. That's fine.

Maybe it does. I hate the fact that people presume that in some way I am casting her in a bad light. I am someone who's been sexually assaulted and who did not report it. I regret that...but I didn't and I was a scared 16 year old. However when it happened I reacted rather forcefully--even though I was half out of my mind at the time. I did not name her a whore or a liar...however you don't know if she's not lying....which is all I'm saying and I find out that action a bit questionable.

[Mass]

61. You do not know if she is lying means you think she could be a liar.

There are SEVERAL people with the same type of complaints. Do you think they all lie? I find your action of questioning her like that questionable because it shows a lack of empathy that is very bothering. I was also assaulted when I was a very young woman, in a professional environment, and I can tell you the last thing I did was to yell. May be I would have if the guy had pushed further, but I did not really wanted to be the center of attention for anything else than my work. It seems that Cain stopped when she reacted. It does not make HIS behavior acceptable, but I can understand her reaction.

[vaberella]

68. Yup. I do do agree that I think she could be lying.

I do not deny that. Because 10 women have the same complaints...doesn't that no.11 is telling the truth. Look...there are a lot of people who don't mind the limelight. I never said I think they're all liars. I don't trust her. I'm so surprised there are so many so quick to believe her. I don't believe Cain either and I do believe he's sexually harassed women. This woman... It's my own interpretation of her.

[lunatica]

35. I thought it might have actually been a warning to him

That she had a man who would protect her and might hurt him for what he was doing. She was obviously very nervous when she was giving the statement.

And it could have been why he stopped. Because he's obviously no gentleman. With men who do that the thought that a woman would most likely tell her boyfriend would make him stop.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Wow, this is a disgusting OP.

Not surprising. Empathy is a nasty word to the ardents.

[vaberella]

43. Maybe. It's my own perspective.

Post# 27 would suggest that I have more in common with her than most. If she's telling the truth.

[Cigar11]

37. I totally disagree; it looks like Women can’t win no matter what they do!

If they don’t speak out, Herman gets away with so he continues his Harassment of even more women. If they do speak out, then their integrity so questioned. Exactly what’s a good way of telling anyone that you were Sexually Harassed … especially publicly?

If Herman Cain keeps getting away with this type of stuff, eventually so Father, Brother or Boyfriend will put a stop to it.

[vaberella]

44. I'm female.

Post# 27 also puts me in another ship. I don't think that's the case. You're acting like she spoke out 15 years ago. She did not. She actually said nothing about it. While there were other women who did speak out and went to court over it. She claims to have been a victim, and so yeah...I do question it. I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm not blaming the victim here. You, nor I know if she was a victim. We're going by her word versus his word. And I'm not putting him on any pedestal but 15 years of silence until makes me wonder. There were several other women who definitely made him pay. There is no good thing and you know as well as I do that there are a lot of people who pay a lot of other people.

I don't think he keeps getting away with anything. I do think this is the first time he's getting a brighter light shown on him because his past settlements suggest that he's far from an innocent in all this. But she's someone I question.

[Cigar11]

48. Well I’m a MAN,

and if any Woman wrongfully accuses me of Sexual Harassment, it will be an Ice Cold day in Hell before she gets a Penny from me. You can be assured I wouldn’t pay someone to just go away, I don’t care for how much or how little, it isn’t going to happen.

So my question to Mr. Cain … why would you pay someone if you’re innocent?

[Evergreen Emerald]

46. What do you think of HIS behavior? Silence is encouraged. Harrassment continues.

It is extremely typical in this society to nitpick the victim's statements, reactions, appearances, etc. and look for reasons not to believe her.

Do you think that his statements, behavior, responses are credible? One of the reasons sexual harassment is prevalent is because silence is encouraged.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Maybe She Was Scared And Didn't Want To Enrage Him Further

.

[pnwmom]

54. Yes. She was probably trying to placate him. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. I'm A Guy

When I was fifteen I was in a depaartment store restroom and this man who must have been in his sixties or seventies stood next to me at the urinal and said "do you want to feel the juices?". I just ran out. I could have hit him or beat him up easily. He was an old guy and much smaller than me. I was already six feet tall.

We don't know how we would react. I think the first impulse it to remove yourself from the situation.

[pnwmom]

60. No, we don't. If I'd been your mother, I would have been glad

you just got out of there -- but I'd have wished you had been comfortable telling me or someone you trusted.

One of the men I did projects for at one of my early jobs used to make disgusting remarks when I brought him work -- about how I must be craving his body, etc. (I was 23 and he was probably 50.)

I just reacted the way I'd been taught all my life -- pretended I hadn't heard him and avoided him as much as possible. (This was pre-Anita Hill so I wasn't prepared at all.) Eventually, though, I went on a business trip with his boss and I had a chance to tell HIM what was happening and found out other women had been complaining, too. Someone read the louse the riot act and that was the end of it.

[TwilightGardener]

51. When something shocking occurs, something you didn't see coming, do you always give

the strongest, clearest and most effective response? Her response to Cain's actions sounds very credible to me, it sounds like the first thing that popped into her confused mind.

[lamp_shade]

55. That's my bet. Sounds like how I probably would have responded.

me not being a quick and clever responder and all.

[onlyadream]

58. The same thought ran thru my mind

That is NOT what I would have said. I would have been like, "Stop it! What do you think your doing!? Take me home now!" (or I'd get out of the car). Reminding Cain that she has a boyfriend sounded strange and immature. What if she didn't have a boyfriend? Is it okay then?
I'm not saying that she's lying, people react differently in situations. But it did strike me as strange.

[ProSense]

62. Here's the problem with

Cain: He started out lying about the settlements.

He can't simpy whitewash sexual harrassment/assault charges as someone out to get him after it's clear that there were payoffs (by his own admission).

[lynne]

63. "Houston, we have a problem." -

I will honestly say that I've said some very bizarre things in times of stress and surprise. I don't consider her statement during the alleged incident an indication of anything.

However, I do know that I would never want to again see or be in the same room with and CERTAINLY would not embrace or whisper into the ear of or smile at someone who had sexually accosted me. Never. EVER.

http://www.suntimes.com/8592168-417/sneed-witness-says-cain-accuser-hugged-him-during-tea-party-meeting-a-month-ago.html

[emilyg]

64. Supposedly there is a witness who

saw her hugging Cain at a rally.

[vaberella]

66. You're shitting me?! Really now?!

There are rumors it's about money too. Jesus. I don't trust her...but I don't want to believe this. Do you have a link emilyg.

[emilyg]

73. There was a post with

pictures of them here on du.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. She Said She Met Cain, Again, At A Tea Party Rally, At Yesterday's Presser

.

[Whisp]

65. we all can react to something differently.

that doesn't mean the intention of the creep changes.

I like to think too that if I were in a situation like that I'd be very aggressive and punch his fucking lights out - but I don't know. And if I don't kow how I would react (shock does take over your brain sometimes) I sure won't be judging how others react.

I know your intentions are the best, vab, but I get the uncomfortable feeling that -'' hey if you handled it this certain way, ladies, like I would, you wouldn't be harrassed! '' - that really blames the victim, doesn't it?

[Zoeisright]

67. Oh for God's sake. Grow up.

[vaberella]

69. Oh I'm an adult. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. How Could She Have Twisted His Penis With Her Hands, As You Suggest She Should Have Done

There is nothing in the record that suggests he exposed himself too.

And don't you think that might have enraged him and opened herself to serious physical harm.

And you would certainly acknowledge there is a huge difference in physical power.

It reminds me of the bad old days when the defense against a rape allegation was that the victim wasn't "beat up enough"; that she didn't put up enough of a struggle.

And what of the other three victims/accusers, the GOP pollster who witnessed some of the events, and the Iowa radio host who said Cain behaved inappropriately toward his female assistants.

Are they all lying.