This APEC summit in Hawaii is a disaster. They're trying to ram free trade down our throats.

[Cali_Democrat]

It looks like the US Chamber of Commerce's free trade agenda is running the show to the detriment of the poor and the middle class.

Obama: Hoping for Pacific free trade plan by 2012
By ELAINE KURTENBACH
HONOLULU

Pacific Rim leaders gathered for an annual summit in Hawaii pledged Saturday to work together to keep world growth on track, as President Barack Obama announced the broad outlines of a plan he said could serve as a model for a trans-Pacific free trade zone.

"There are still plenty of details to work out, but we are confident that we can do so. So we've directed our teams to finalize this agreement in the coming year," Obama said while seated beside leaders of eight other nations involved in the negotiations toward setting up what has been dubbed the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

"It is an ambitious goal, but we are optimistic that we can get it done," he said.

The trade zone can serve as a model for the region and for other trade pacts, increasing U.S. exports and helping to create jobs, a top priority, in the fastest growing region in the world, said Obama, who made promoting the so-called TPP a priority in hosting this week's summit in his hometown, Honolulu.

Read more: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QVFGIG0.htm

Really? The only thing free trade creates is lower wages and lower standards of living for the poor and the middle class while the wealthy and corporations increase their profits.

And you thought NAFTA was bad? A trans-Pacific free trade zone will be like NAFTA on steroids.

[truedelphi]

1. There was a guy running for the Presidency back in 2008

With a great big "D" surrounding his name, and he said he would "end NAFTA if elected."

Don't know what happened to him. Anyone here know anything?

[Autumn]

4. Yeah but didn't they tell Canada

"not Really" so we just didn't pay attention.

[bhikkhu]

12. Some background on that:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2008/04/09/trade-secrets-real-problem-with-nafta/5o0

and

home.coa.edu/faculty/webpages/dtaylor/impact%25of%25nafta.pdf

not that there isn't a lot more that could be said...Much of the criticism of NAFTA points at manufacturing losses, which are very bad, but in political rhetoric the implied cause and effect often have little to do with one another. The biggest actual culprit is the modernization of factories, which has steadily eliminated factory jobs for the past 100 years, and the second biggest factor is the huge increase in trade with China. A trade agreement with Asia, well-drawn, is the best road forward.

Its usually better to do one's own research, rather than just charge where some angry finger points!

[truedelphi]

23. It is almost predictable that the "educated" answerr to my

Query and statement would be that of someone versed in the philosophy of the Ultimate Foundations of the USA.

As someone who is well versed in (and by) the education of Norman G Dodd, I cannot rely on any one of those foundations, and especially and certainly not the Carnegie Foundation, to provide any answers relating to "free trade agreements" or any matters of economic importance.

[bhikkhu]

24. Philosophy aside - "U.S. Exports Rise to Record as Trade Deficit Shrinks"

Obama's record on trade, short as it is, so far speaks very well for itself.

From http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/business/economy/us-exports-rise-to-record-as-trade-deficit-shrinks.html

and more recently: http://seekingalpha.com/article/306936-u-s-exports-total-trade-reach-record-highs

I might have added that a third factor driving the destruction of US manufacturing was the "strong dollar" policy, which is no longer the case; and good policies bring good results.

[truedelphi]

38. Meanwhile, many industries have already been devastated by the Obama/Bush policies of

The last three years.

The fact that farmers in Brazil face so little in the way of tariffs means that Brazilian oranges flood our markets. So Florida and California orange groves will be plowed under.

Over 100,000 dairy cattle were slaughtered off in the summer months of 2009, in just the three Northern Calif. counties I keep track of. Again, the Obama/Bush policies allowed for very little capital to go to small enterprises and family owned businesses, unless the operations were on the Mega-scale of say the Dole (pineapple) family.

Small industries, like a steel mill that was owner operated in the nation's south east also went under. At least that firm got noticed by Sixty Minutes, but most firms have gone quietly.

The big firms, like those mentioned inside the first paragraph of the article you cite, are indeed doing well. But then taxpayers on Main Street propped up the Big Auto Makers.

Article's first paragraph:

WASHINGTON — American manufacturers sold more cars, airplanes and industrial machinery in foreign markets in July, sending exports to a record high and pushing the trade deficit down to its lowest level in three months, the Commerce Department reported Thursday.

The decimation of Main Street and small family farm America is systematic, and was caused by the various bubbles we have seen gone on since the end of the eighties and then by the lack of capital extended to the smaller industries.

Those at the top keep saying, "Well that is just the Free Market" but one wonders why the Free Market proponents don't mind when their industries get Bailed out - even though that is nothing more than Socialism for the Elite.

It should come as no surprise to the Elite that those of us who live on Main Street aren't as willing to slough off discussing what is wrong with the notions of a "Free Market Capitalistic" society when it is Main Street going down the tubes.

Other societies support their Middle Class. Meanwhile our society exploits the Middle Class, in egregious ways, and then as the Middle Class lies gasping bleeding and living in a tent at an Occupy Somewhere, we are told that it was inevitable because there was nothing that could have been done.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[amandabeech]

52. What "well-drawn" trade agreement is going to increase good jobs here

in the face of cheaper labor and general lack of regulations or enfoced regulations concerning the environment.

U.S. manufacturers salivate at that even though to sell in China they may be required by the Chinese government to get a Chinese partner and give the partner everything they need to compete with their original U.S. partners.

How is a another trade agreement going to bring jobs here?

By the way, there was a giant sucking sound of many industries flying to Mexico in the '90s. Many of those jobs actually went to China in the 2000s. The Mexicans weren't any happier to see that than we were to see our jobs move in the '90s.

[ProSense]

2. Wait

"This APEC summit in Hawaii is a disaster."

...it's a disaster because he's looking for a trade agreement?


"And you thought NAFTA was bad? A trans-Pacific free trade zone will be like NAFTA on steroids. "

How on earth do you know that?

[golfguru]

13. If you visit India and China of today versus 20 years ago,

your head will turn 180 degrees. I have visited both and can't believe the change for the better. And 1/3rd of world population lives in those 2 countries.

[Armstead]

45. If you visit America today your head will spin at how much worse it has become

Thanks to free trade, we no longer make things in the US. A guy (or woman) who could have had a self-supporting blue collar career in tyhe past now does not have that option because our industries have been shipped overseas....The only option for many people is a lower paid service sector job in someplace like a call center....Oh wait, those kinds of jobs have been shipped overseas too. But they can always get a high-skilled tech support job. Oh wait. Those are going away too.

Yeah "free trade" has done wonders for the good old USA. Luvin that race to the bottom.

(And once workers in places like China and India start getting too bog for their britches, their jobs too will be shipped out to some poorer country where workers are willing to work for shit.)

[golfguru]

57. Correct on all counts

You can't keep rain water on high ground very long.

Trump is right, foreigners are xxxxing us and we don't even know it.

[Armstead]

46. Back in the 1990's...

"How can you say NAFTA isn't going to be great for the economy? How on earth do you know that?"

[dkf]

3. Without economic activity there are no jobs.

Asia is up and coming and they will be the new consumers of the world because their population is humongous. To ignore the opportunities there is STUPID.

[Vincardog]

6. To lower our wages in order to compete with their's is what is stupid. Without income there is no

economic activity. The NeoLiberal plan to lower our wages to compete with Asian Slave labor is repellent

[ProSense]

8. You

"To lower our wages in order to compete with their's is what is stupid. Without income there is no economic activity. The NeoLiberal plan to lower our wages to compete with Asian Slave labor is repellent."

...have no idea what you're talking about. It's all knee-jerk crap as if NAFTA is the only trade agreement there ever was, and all agreements should be judged by that one.


President Obama is doing really well on trade and enforcement.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. Agreed

It's nothing more than a race to the bottom while wealthy shareholders line their pockets.

[dkf]

10. Europe is in big trouble.

If we can't find someone to take up that slack it won't be to our benefit.

[Union Scribe]

17. Yep. That's the bottom line. nt

[ellisonz]

11. +7 billion

[great white snark]

14. +1

Thanks for this sensible remark.

[brentspeak]

15. Not as "stupid" as your post

These "new consumers" you speak of purchase items made overseas in their own nations by companies partly-owned by a few Americans who have shipped US manufacturing to those nations. There's nothing the Asian countries will be purchasing in bulk from the US except for maybe some food products forced upon them by their own governments at the expense of their own local farmers.

The so-called "trade" deals emanating from APEC like a gigantic stink are simply to solidify the arrangements which have deindustrialized America's job engine.

[treestar]

22. We are still the biggest manufacturers in the world

So it is absurd to assume we will be left out in the cold in terms of world trade.

[brentspeak]

26. Tell us precisely what consumer goods we're manufacturing here in the US

That is being sold either here or abroad in large quantities.

You have as many years as necessary to research your answer.

[bhikkhu]

30. Airplanes and automobiles?

In my area, its lumber products - doors and windows and plywood.

We are also one of the largest food exporters in the world, which is a very big thing as there are only 7 or 8 big food exporting nations on the planet.

I'm sure we could go area by area and come up with a lot more stuff...

[brentspeak]

32. Jumbo jets and military aircraft are "consumer goods"?

Food is "manufacturing"?

In my area, its lumber products - doors and windows and plywood.

How many of these locally-made lumber products are sold at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, or Loews? How many are sold in China, India, etc.?

I'm sure we could go area by area and come up with a lot more stuff...

Believe me, after reading your posts, I'm sure you you could make up a lot more stuff. No need to brag about it.

[bhikkhu]

34. So google it, if you actually care whether your opinion is bogus or not

Try "US manufacturing exports". Lots of good information easily available, and an open mind might learn a thing or two.

[treestar]

36. Why are only consumer goods worthy?

Airplanes cost more and earn us more from whoever buys them. Consumers ultimately use them.

[amandabeech]

53. A much larger percentage of parts and autos are coming from

overseas than used to be, and that inludes U.S. nameplates manufactured in Mexico, like the Ford Fusion. GM will be importing Buicks from China to the U.S. very soon. Toyota's use of U.S. parts doesn't make up for it.

I just spent a year in Michigan. The giant sucking sound goes to both Mexico and China.

[treestar]

35. Just google it

I remember after a few years at DU hearing over and over about how we were losing manufacturing jobs and went to find stats on just how bad it was.

To find that we were still #1 manufacturer. So what we lose may be made up somewhere else.

It's just become conventional wisdom no one questions - but those types of things need to be questioned, since what we know is so isn't always so.

[amandabeech]

55. We are the world's number 1 arms dealer.

That stuff costs lots of dough and most of those purchases are either subsidized or shipped to our allies so that are virtually required to have some of the same gear that we have.

That's not an industry that I'm so excited about leading.

[Union Scribe]

16. In the same way a mugging is economic activity.

I mean, money is changing hands so it's got to be good right?

This party is doomed if it doesn't purge itself of neoliberal free trade lovers.

[Vincardog]

18. +1 This COUNTRY is doomed if it doesn't purge itself of neoliberal free trade lovers.

[bhikkhu]

25. Free trade is unregulated - which is what you have before trade agreements, not after

Of course it has to be carefully written and well managed, but I would trust Obama to get it right before congress or any other president I can think of.

[brentspeak]

27. If you trust Obama to "get it right", then he's already played you for a sucker

Too late: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/obama-free-trade-agreements_b_1008113.html

[bhikkhu]

29. Recycled propaganda at the link you posted

as in, using out of date and incomplete models of prior bone-headed policies to predict an outcome (more to make a political point than to inform a policy), when the more current results of the actual trade policies of the president are readily available.

The president's goal is to have doubled exports and reduced the trade deficit significantly by 2015, and so far it has worked well. About 500k new jobs have been created by growth in exports, and the recent news is: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/business/economy/us-exports-rise-to-record-as-trade-deficit-shrinks.html.

I know that's a paradigm shift from what we are used to, and it has as much to do with monetary policies as with trade agreements, but it is a very positive and encouraging sector of the economy, and one that should be made the most of. This isn't the 90's any more, and one wouldn't want to get caught on the wrong side of a shifting paradigm!

[brentspeak]

31. Now Public Citizen's work becomes "propaganda"

While a one-month narrowing of the enormous trade deficit prior to the signature of the three "trade" deals magically indicates Obama's success in revitalizing large-scale manufacturing in the U.S.

Oh, look...new report:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-11/trade-deficit-in-u-s-was-probably-little-changed-in-september.html

Trade Deficit in U.S. Was Probably Little Changed in September
November 11, 2011, 2:23 AM EST

Nov. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. trade deficit was probably little changed in September as slowing global growth weighed on exports and imports, economists said before a report today.

A shortfall of $46 billion is projected after a $45.6 billion gap in August, according to the median forecast of 76 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News before today’s Commerce Department report. Jobless claims last week and October import prices were little changed, two other reports may show.

American exports may taper off as Europe heads toward what its new central bank chief calls a “mild recession” and China’s economy cools. At the same time, U.S. imports may be limited by what Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said is a “frustratingly slow” recovery.

“We see the behavior of imports and exports staying more or less the same and offsetting each other,” said Michael Gapen, a senior U.S. economist at Barclays Capital Inc. in New York. “Globally, it looks like we’re entering into a period of slower growth, particularly for Europe.”

So there hasn't been any meaningful progress in tackling the trade deficit after all. Meanwhile, somebody who sounds like they're a paid shill from the US Chamber of Commerce pompously refers to Public Citizen as "political propaganda".

Thank you for the laugh.

[bhikkhu]

40. Propaganda because - it pushes an isolated point, while ignoring the big picture

They project dire consequences for the trade agreements not by looking at the agreements, not by looking at Obama's record on trade, and not even by looking at the economies involved, or any of the industries that would benefit from the agreements, but by taking the worst prior examples of bad deals and assuming that's how it will be.

Because...if you read through their website, that's basically what they do. That does seem like propaganda to me. Perhaps the chamber of commerce is as bad or worse in the other direction, but I haven't looked at their stuff.

Why should anyone be against business? When you see something like this - http://shopfloor.org/tag/exports - talking about the steady growth in US exports, and the increase in GDP under Obama, don't you think that's good? I think - there's a bunch of jobs for a bunch of people, and lots of people who aren't broke and going hungry!

However good or bad it has been, things are always changing and we always need more, but when some people get jobs, even that helps the people who are still looking. Whenever I was down on my luck, I was helped out by people who weren't, basically people who had jobs, and I consider myself lucky to have a decent job now. When I hear that business is improving and things are on the mend, I think that's good, and hope it keeps up. On the point of trade, Obama has a good record - nothing magical about it, just good policies - and things have been steadily going in a good direction. I just can't fathom how anyone could look at the facts and not see that as well.

[brentspeak]

41. Shopfloor.org???!! Thank you so much for providing me with a screenshot of your post

Very sporting of you. No wonder you keep referring to Public Citizen as "propaganda"!

:spray: :spray: :spray:

"Why should anyone be against business? When you see something like this - http://shopfloor.org/tag/exports - talking about the steady growth in US exports, and the increase in GDP under Obama, don't you think that's good?"

http://shopfloor.org/about-nam

Shopfloor is the blog of the http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/NAM-Board-of-Directors-opposes-Employee-Free-Choice-Act-557611">National Association of Manufacturers (NAM). Since its founding in November, 2004 Shopfloor has been a recognized resource for manufacturing advocacy on issues such as energy and labor policy, legal reform, trade and regulation. Widely read on Capitol Hill, Shopfloor is regularly cited by influential media outlets, including The Hugh Hewitt Show, National Review, the Drudge Report and Glenn Reynolds of Instapundundit.

[bhikkhu]

42. So anything related to business is apparently evil...

I just have to go back to where some of my perspective comes from. Whenever I was down on my luck when I was younger - broke or between jobs, I was helped out by people who were more fortunate, and one common factor was that they all had jobs. Having relied on the kindness of friends and family often, probably more than my due, naturally created the desire to be a person who would do the same in return for others. Part of that means developing skills, a balanced character, and working.

Manufacturing is basically a good thing, if you like the idea that people have a decent standard of living, support themselves, and have the ability to raise families and help out those less fortunate. Its natural to wish to be a giver rather than a receiver, and (unless one inherits wealth) having a job is one of the things that allows that.

Again, why would anyone hate business? Its still a mystery to me. The good standard of living most people enjoy in the US has come from the hard work of the past generations on many fronts - sometimes just hard work, social advocacy, toward government regulation, equality and so forth - everything has played a part, but the economy itself ("business") is the unavoidable foundation...perhaps "you don't know what you have until its gone" applies.

[brentspeak]

43. "Manufacturing is basically a good thing"

Yes, it is. Too bad your buddies, the century-old right wing NAM believes that manufacturing should be relocated to cheap-labor nations like China, Mexico, and Vietnam.

"Again, why would anyone hate business? Its still a mystery to me."

Since you're the one who supports destroying domestic businesses here in the US in favor of multinational corporations who relocate manufacturing facilities abroad, you tell us.

Again, thanks for the screenshot.

[bhikkhu]

48. The president's goal - and his accomplishment so far - is to keep and build manufacturing here

The prior records of trade agreements destroying domestic businesses were the result of bad agreements, poor monetary policy, and some boneheaded global-economic theories.

I think the inability to believe that we can "get it right", even when the current evidence and data show that we are getting it right on trade, is a symptom of the long-running RW campaign that preaches "government can't get anything right".

Its not really that hard. There are plenty of examples of how well the US has done historically, when good government and good policies brought good results and improvements in the lives of the majority. There are also plenty of examples of contemporary governments that keep well-regulated economies humming along just fine.

[brentspeak]

49. Nebulous blather + shopfloor.org links =

Waste of bandwidth.

[bhikkhu]

50. I hadn't really looked at the site before, but wondering what you have against it -

http://shopfloor.org/ - if anyone else wants to judge it themselves. To me it seems pretty tame - basic business coverage of business issues. Generally it seems more like actual journalism and data analysis about manufacturing, and the only political thing I found in the recent links was a criticism of the administration for delaying the Keystone pipeline, which is only to be expected.

I've heard it said that the greatest power the wealthy, the "owners", have over people stems from the people's belief that the wealthy have great power...for whatever reason, I never really got that. The wealthy people I've known have seemed as fragile and incomplete as most anyone else, no better or worse; certainly not intimidating.

[amandabeech]

54. In modern times, tariffs are what you have before Free Trade Agreements.

Our modern trade agreements get rid of tariffs. Previously, tariffs and quotas predominated.

[dkf]

20. The mugging is in the bad deals we have set up for ourselves.

We need to do better but to do that we need to engage.

As the world starts enjoying what we have enjoyed for years we can be the ones selling this new life.

[treestar]

21. Good point, and there is no way round it

We're not going to prosper by cutting off with the rest of the world.

[jefferson_dem]

37. +1

:)

[amandabeech]

51. What will they buy that is made here except for agricultural products?

A few Harleys?

The Chinese seem to like brand-name iconic merchandise, but of the items that I have heard of, like Levis, are now made elsewhere.

What is not now made in China may end up being made there because it is cheaper and because the Chinese government requires many U.S. manufacturers who want to sell their wares to pair up with a Chinese partner and to give all intellectual property, know how and customer lists to the Chinese partner.

Boeing, I believe, is outsourcing to China because of this. Other manufacturers will be next.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

7. No, he's not.

That is all.

[frazzled]

19. Actually, exports are one of the few things keeping our economy alive right now

One of the few bright spots in the U.S. economy lately has been the fact that we’ve been exporting a whole lot of goods abroad. According to the Commerce Department, U.S. exports hit $180.4 billion in September, a record high. Overall, exports have risen 23 percent since the end of the recession in 2009 — a better performance than in any of the previous four downturns. The trade deficit is shrinking. For all the talk about decline, America still produces a lot of stuff that people want. So what can this tell us about the economy?

For one, it’s another piece of evidence that lack of demand — and not taxes or regulatory uncertainty — is the main thing holding back growth. As Georgetown business professor Jay Shambaugh notes: “In foreign markets where economies are growing quickly, U.S. exports are rising fast. American businesses do not seem to be held back by fear of taxes or regulation; they are hiring and increasing production for sale where there are customers.” Exports are outperforming the rest of the economy because there’s demand for those goods (as Shambaugh notes, the weaker dollar has only played a partial role here). At home, meanwhile, demand is still weak: Consumers have lost a lot of housing wealth since 2007, which has held back spending, and the government isn’t filling in the gap. Big difference.

The other thing to note is that we probably can’t count on exports alone to lift the United States out of its doldrums.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/what-can-exports-tell-us-about-the-us-economy/2011/11/11/gIQAKfV6BN_blog.html

A lot more jobs might be lost right now if we were not selling stuff to other countries. Of course, a lot of those other countries are about to implode. But exports have been and always will be important to the economy. The UAW realized this when it supported the recent South Korean Trade Agreement.

[applegrove]

28. Apparently, according to Bill Clinton's latest book, the Ameican trade deficit is due to

the importation of oil and China. Maybe one other country. Othere trade deals work out well. For sure there are winners and loosers when you open trade up with another country...but more wealth is created.

It is how wealth is distributed in a country that matters.

[brentspeak]

33. Yeah, a few winners at the top while everyone else loses

It is how wealth is distributed in a country that matters.

Unless you plan on forcibly seizing the wealth of the richest Americans and distributing it out somehow, no one else in a nation which has become deindustrialized will see any meaningful gains from having their jobs or regional economies shipped overseas.

Bill Clinton should know all about the trade deficit and the declining middle class -- he is largely responsible for them by signing NAFTA and granting China MFN status. We are now a second-world country.

[ellisonz]

39. That'd happen anyways. Take the Gilded Age for example...

[amandabeech]

56. Americans worked hard for decades to end the Gilded Age.

It was horrible. The years of the 1870-1900 are called the "Long Depression" and the 99% suffered horribly. Having all the money go to the top did not produce a healthy economy.

Top heavy wage and wealth distribution which increased through the 1920s was one of the factors contributing to the "Great Depression," too.

The Democratic Party that I knew until recently was the party that worked hard to get rid of the Great Depression and to prevent one from happening again.

I am always extremely disturbed to read the postings here of Democrats who are not appalled by great disparity of wealth in our country and the problems that such maldistribution causes for our country.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. Great news. Four more years!

[Armstead]

47. We never f'ing learn.....Well the Oligarchs learn how to shaft us better

But we ordinary people just sit back and allow ourselves to continually get screwed.