"How Bullshit Magically Turns Into Fact"

[Pirate Smile]

How Bullshit Magically Turns Into Fact

by Karoli on November 25, 2011 · 8 comments

I used to write these stories debunking the right wing only, and usually in the context of Fox News. But lately, it seems as though the entire angry political blogosphere, whether right, left or libertarian, seems to need to magically transform bullshit into fact. I’m going to give you two examples of how this works so you can actually figure out for yourself why it’s important to keep your critical thinking cap on.

Naomi Wolf wrote a nonsensical piece today that’s being spammed all over Twitter. It asserts that there is a deliberate plot afoot via collusion by the United States Congress, the Department of Homeland Security and our oligarchical overlords to undermine the very populist, leaderless Occupy Wall Street movement. One of her key pieces of evidence is an unsupported and unverified report that 18 mayors coordinated their crackdowns with the Department of Homeland Security. There’s only one problem with that: It’s nothing more than innuendo. Here, let me show you.

-snip-
Got that? The headlines on both of these stories (Wonkette and WashingtonsBlog) were splayed across the sites in very large heading fonts: “Homeland Security Coordinated….” and yet the AP confirms everything BUT DHS coordination. Still, that didn’t stop Wolf from ignoring the AP story entirely and writing a piece for the Guardian that included links to bolster her argument that clearly don’t.

Why? I reiterate. No one has a source, no one has any evidence, and the originating story which Michael Moore and now Naomi Wolf breathlessly spread quotes an anonymous source with the promise of still more to come in the future. Well, it’s the future. It’s two weeks later and crickets from Mr. Ellis. Mission accomplished, though. Ask people who are paying attention to the OWS movement and they’ll swear up and down that yes, it was coordinated by DHS because MICHAEL MOORE and now NAOMI WOLF say so.

http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2011/11/25/how-bullshit-magically-turns-into-fact/

edit to add:

#OWS: The Shocking Truth about Naomi Wolf’s Journalistic Hackery
Rumormongering at its most despicable.

Two weeks ago, a rumor circulated that the Department of Homeland Security was “behind” the crackdown at Zuccotti Park. The rumor originated with Michael Moore who got it from a thinly-sourced article in Examiner.com. I wrote about it here and here.

The author of the Examiner.com article, Rick Ellis, published multiple updates to his thinly-sourced post, and promised that he would provide more information once he had it. That was on November 15. No further information has been provided.

I figured it had been settled. As Joshua Holland, writing for Alternet noted, “There’s a lot of speculation, but very little substance to the tale of the “nationwide” crackdown on the Occupy movement. ”

So I figured this rumor would be put to bed. I was wrong.

Today — ten days after the rumor had been debunked — Naomi Wolf saw fit to write an article so fraught with hyperbole — “what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war” — and so utterly fact-free that its publication should hang like an albatross around Naomi Wolf’s neck for the rest of her career. It is Judith Miller-style hackery, and it is shameless.

-snip-
Naomi Wolf should supplement her article with information necessary for readers to make a judgment as to whether her claims are merely opinion fueled by conspiracy theories and designed to exploit the emotions and tensions running high in the wake of the various Occupy crackdown, or whether her claims have the sort of basis in reality that publication in an international newspaper of the Guardian‘s stature should require. It’s what a “real” journalist would do. Then again, perhaps Drudge journalism is winning the day and we simply cannot trust what we read at all anymore — from any source. With rare exceptions, I’ve already given up on American newspapers. Am I going to be forced to give up on papers in the UK as well? If publication of this sort of tripe is any indication, then yes — yes I will.

This is an egregious failure on Wolf’s part, and she should correct it.

http://www.angryblacklady.com/2011/11/25/ows-the-shocking-truth-of-naomi-wolfs-journalistic-hackery/

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. It's appalling, and it's being unrec'd. It's sad, but it doesn't fit the narrative being created by

the liberal intelligencia. Surely another "journalist" of stature will take Naomi to task on this. Thanks for posting. :hi:

[Number23]

4. Of course it's being unrec'd. The same folks unrecing this rec'd that insanely stupid Examiner bit

And I really like this author's description of The Examiner.

"(a very, very right-wing Phil Anschutz, write-out-of-your-butt-with-no-evidence kind of site)."

Yep. Kind of reminds me of The Quibbler in Harry Potter.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/The_Quibbler

[Tarheel_Dem]

6. "The Quibbler".

:rofl:

[Remember Me]

70. Of course it's being unrecc'd; it's a pile of disinformation

Here's the source everyone's complaining about doesn't exist: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=821842&mesg_id=822146

I'm not typically one in favor of unrecommending, and haven't unrecc'd this. But I can sure understand why some are doing it.

[BklnDem75]

104. That post you linked was indeed misinformation

Highlighting 'a justice official' doesn't really do anything for the article. An unnamed source never held much weight in any of the Bush years. Is there a reason, other than it hurts this Admin, that we'd consider it reliable now?

[Number23]

108. The point appears to have flown over your head

Here's the source everyone's complaining about doesn't exist

No one questions whether this "source" existed. The questioning is in reference to a highly disreputable "news" outlet (The Examiner) referring to "unnamed sources" (the shadowy Justice Dept official) that allude to the fact that OWS crackdowns were coordinated with DHS.

An AP press article seems to corroborate just about every bit of info EXCEPT the piece of dripping red meat: that the crackdowns were coordinated with DHS. Now, if a moderately reputable news source (AP) can corroborate everything but the ONE damning bit of info that a completely UNREPUTABLE news article is reporting, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that is.

[Remember Me]

118. You know, what I've read -- and what I know -- doesn't lead me in that direction

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Here's some information I happened across last night while googling a bit:


First, because of "what I know" I know about the way the real world works, I know that PERF probably wouldn't, perhaps couldn't, exist without ties to DHS. Period. Here's proof, and a glimpse at ties with various city police departments with DHS and PERF:

Founded in 1977, the organization currently performs research funded mainly through government contracts with
the Department of Homeland Security and donations from companies such as Motorola and Lockheed-Martin. PERF runs
its police executive training course, SMIP, on the Boston University campus each summer, with professors from
Harvard's Kennedy School of Government teaching courses in leadership, crisis management, and organizational theory.
Its board of directors includes police chiefs from across the country.
While in Boston, he got to know two-time PERF Board President William Bratton, who once served as Boston
Police Commissioner under former governor Mitt Romney and now serves, like Wexler, as an appointee to the
Homeland Security Advisory Council. He is also a friend of longtime PERF Member-at-Large and Boston Police
Commissioner Ed Davis.
http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/130305-perf-ect-storm/#ixzz1es4V76fI


re PERF (and Wexler is the PERF guy on those phone calls):
Reports of at least a dozen cities and some indication of as many as 40 accepting PERF advice and/or strategic documents include
San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Portland, Oakland, Atlanta, and Washington DC. The San Francisco Police Department and Mayor Ed Lee's
office did not returned the Guardian's request for comment about the PERF calls by press time. However, Oakland interim
Police Chief Howard Jordan was quoted by the Associated Press confirming Oakland and San Francisco police involvement
in the strategy sessions. PERF coordinated a November 10 conference call with city police chiefs across the country –
and many of these cities undertook crackdowns shortly afterward.
http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/11/18/cop-group-coordinating-occupy-crackdowns


Is that "proof" that DHS "coordinated" these calls? No, it's not. But for me, it doesn't have to be. THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH. IMO, PERF shouldn't exist in the first place, shouldn't be coordinating ANYthing with our cities' cop departments, and DHS has no business anywhere near either of them, except thourhg FEMA and that barely. Now, YMMV, and that's cool. But for those of us deeply concerned about what has morphed into an OPENLY fascist nation posing as a once-great democracy, it's alarming, though just ONE alarming thing among thousands.

Oh, you might also want to take a look at this discussion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2387857

[Number23]

126. So nothing has to be actually proven

If it comes close enough to your already preconceived notions, you're happy huh?

You should let your town know to never, EVER put you on a jury.

[Remember Me]

127. I don't expect infromation in most news articles to be "proven," no --

in fact, from what I've seen here and elsewhere, the demand for "proof" can be used as a stalling tactic, or a way to obfuscate the truth, or a way to confuse and distract people. It's all very clever.

Rarely is any "proof" required for things to be discussed and talked about and reported in the press. Courts of law -- some of them, not even all of them -- require
"proof." Scientists require "proof" for some things in some situations. Not news articles and blogs.

Proof in many situations is very, very difficult to get. Sometimes impossible. That quality about "proof" can make it very valuable for people who are defending someone or something to demand, and the louder the better.

[Number23]

128. As I previously said

A reputable news source was able to corroborate every bit of a news article from a disreputable news source except for the screaming headline that was the bit of dripping red meat that the disreputable news source was touting.

All of your yammering and jabbering about what does and does not constitute proof does not in any way detract from the fact that the reason that element of the story was not corroborated (and STILL has not been corroborated weeks later) is because the disreputable news source probably made it up.

[Remember Me]

129. Ah, CORROBORATE. Corroboration isn't PROOF.

It's corroboration, possibly validating, but not necessarily. And it can be made up too.

does not in any way detract from the fact that the reason that element of the story was not corroborated (and STILL has not been corroborated weeks later) is because the disreputable news source probably made it up.

Wow, that's a bold statement of FACT -- where's the PROOF? You've alleged that it is a FACT that there's no corroboration because one of the sources is disreputabl;e and made it up. Turn about is fair play. Where's your fucking PROOF? Do you know for certain that the "reputable news" organization has been TRYING all this time since to get the corroboration? How (again, PROOF, please)? Do you know for certain hat there's been no squelching of the information by the authorities? That happens all the time and all of our journalists seem perfectly happy to comply. PROOF, please, that there's been no lid put on the free flow of information on the subject.

Nor have I seen any PROOF that one of the news organizations is "disreputable" as you put it. So to me it isn't. Especially since I've seen and posted CORROBORATING information from other sources showing a direct and unbroken link between DHS and PERF and PERF's admittance that it was on those calls -- although PERF naturally denies doing anything much beyond being there. But since you're so careful about your PROOF, I'll quickly admit to you that there's no PROOF of that, you understand -- that is, no proof that all PERF was doing was sitting there rather than coordinating in any way.

So we have the DHS + PERF linkage as PROVEN (if you accept the news item I posted from some months ago without further PROOF), and PERF + those specific city's phone calls by PERF's own admission and other reports (if you accept those reports as PROVEN). Missing is DHS coordination of the calls, which is something I don't believe happened DIRECTLY in any case. I only believe that DHS was well aware of what was going on, in a position to nod approval or not, and able to be involved, through PERF if nothing else, if and as it wanted to be.

[Number23]

130. You should have stopped a looooong time ago

Where's your fucking PROOF? Do you know for certain that the "reputable news" organization has been TRYING all this time since to get the corroboration?

That is probably the dumbest thing I've seen today. The Examiner reported the story. They should have provided the proof. They did not. No one else has been able to corroborate their story.

Only really dumb people with agendas seem to even be giving this foolishness the light of day. And thanks to this particular post from you, we now know beyond all doubt where you stand regarding this issue (not that it wasn't already abundantly clear).

Thanks for playing (even though you played ever so badly).

[BklnDem75]

132. LOL. There's a reason why I held fire in this thread

There's only so many ways one can say they'll believe any form of bs as long as it makes this President look bad. I believe all those ways were posted and then some, with a little creativity. When it comes to conspiracy theories, which is all I'm hearing in defense of this supposed source, normal bullets (logic and truth) don't work against this beast.

[Remember Me]

135. Well, that doesn't describe me. But you knew that. I don't pin this on Obama

If anything, he wouldn't have known about this -- certainly not in advance. And in the rearview mirror, his pattern is to just ignore transgressions. If anything, I think he's a pawn of our Surveillance State -- er, I mean, our esteemed National Security personnel and apparatus.

And, as I've said, I found -- and posted -- other sources that provide enough linkage that satisfies me that Wolf's reporting wasn't all that far off IF AT ALL. YMMV.

[BklnDem75]

137. Of course not...

No conspiracy theories here... :)

[Remember Me]

136. Once again: CORROBORATION ISN'T PROOF.

It's just another voice saying, yeah, that's what happened. But it's not in and of itself proof.

And where you've got whistleblowers -- which the unnamed source is -- you're not likely to find any corroboration, let alone PROOF (unless the whistleblower is able to provide some sort of documents).

You people pretend to be naive about these things. Clever ruse.

[BklnDem75]

141. Uncorroborated > Corroborated

Gotcha :crazy:

[Number23]

144. It would be funny if it wasn't kind of sad, huh?

Even the author of the original fact-free Examiner piece has backed off a bit and admits he doesn't have all of the facts.

http://www.examiner.com/top-news-in-minneapolis/homeland-security-role-occupy-crackdowns-limited-says-agency

But for some, they'd still rather cling to laughably stupid conspiracy theories while crying idiotic things like "well, what exactly is PROOF??!!21" :crazy:

[AtomicKitten]

146. Not a word from Keith or Rachel today on this. It's been debunked.

[TheWraith]

2. Kicked and recommended. This is a large and growing problem.

People fall prey to believing "news" that tells them what they want to hear, even if it's obviously false.

[Tx4obama]

3. See the info on the link below also ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2327356

[treestar]

5. The protests are already losing their purpose

Now notice we are focused on them being pepper sprayed or how the government might want to "crack down" (any government effort to minimize effects or even make justified arrests is so described).

[great white snark]

36. Excellent observation.

I know it's commonplace from you..just though I'd point it out.



:hi:

[Remember Me]

71. What are justified arrests in these protests?

I'd like to know what you consider arrest-worthy?

[treestar]

138. If people break the law?

Why is it that laws should be suspended here?

[cui bono]

83. Wow. Talk about a meme trying to discredit a worthy cause.

Why would you say that? You can't possibly believe it if you are paying attention to the movement since it's undeniably false.

The movement has picked up steam. The fact that we're talking about the pepper spraying shows that harsh tactics are being taken in attempts to stop the movement, tactics that wouldn't be employed if it wasn't working and scaring those it is against.

Sheesh.

[treestar]

139. Why do you assume that the wrongheaded tactics

prove they are afraid of the movement?

Cops just do their job (some badly) - it's not like their every action is a political point.

For instance, some good reasons given were if protestors were blocking an intersection, they could impede emergency personnel.

And if they are someplace in violation of city ordinance, why do they get a pass just because we agree with their politics? Would we be giving the tea party a pass like that?

[Tarheel_Dem]

116. +1000

:thumbsup:

[certainot]

7. as if anyone on the left can message anything over the screaming of 1000 coordinated radio stations

that have been working for the 1% turning lies into truth for 20 years with a buzz madison avenue would kill for.

[Whisp]

8. it's another 24 business hours story...

*snort

[Azathoth]

9. The will to believe is as strong on the hard left as it is on the hard right n/t

[joshcryer]

10. I consider this the age of uncritical thinking.

Conspiracies are far more entertaining than reality.

[Remember Me]

72. and usually have more meat and validity to them

than what's presented as Reality in our mainstream media.

[cui bono]

84. As are fairy tales of presidents doing wonders and playing chess games.

Talk about uncritical thinking.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tx4obama]

17. The majority of Obama supporters are the 99% and support OWS

What the hell are you talking about?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cui bono]

131. That is not possible given that Obama put Wall Street in the White House.

So what are Obama supporters for? OWS or Wall Street itself? You can't be for both and here's why:

Obama has not investigated the rampant bank fraud. He has not attempted to re-regulate the banks. He has not called for the re-instatement of Glass-Steagull. In short, he has done nothing that OWS is fighting for and he is the reason OWS is necessary. If he had there would be no need to be in the streets. We are in the streets because it's the same old same old in Washington, but actually worse when it comes to Wall Street since Obama appointed Geithner, Summers and Daley. How much cozier can one get with Wall Street?

So how can someone support both Obama and OWS when he installed Wall Street in the White House?

[ellisonz]

13. "Distance lends enchantment to the view." - Mark Twain

[Scurrilous]

14. Thanks.

K & R :thumbsup:

[bemildred]

15. Good for her, we need our own propaganda arm too. nt

[Martin Eden]

22. Was that intended as sarcasm?

I don't like being misled into false beliefs, period. Do you?

The left definitely needs to get much better at framing the issues and getting our message out, but a big part of that message needs to be that we have facts and logic on our side. Lies eventually come back to haunt.

[Remember Me]

74. There are no lies here.

And it's really reaching to call anything that's been reported as "lies."

IF there are misunderstandings, or miscommunications, that's one thing (and I strongly doubt that is the case). There are no lies, which requires intent to deceive.

[Martin Eden]

115. False Propaganda

I responded to the post that stated propaganda from the left would be a good thing. Within the context of this thread (BS story about high-level collusion to crack down on OWS) it is fair to assume bemildred was referring to false propaganda. Hence, the title of my post here.

Ultimately, engaging in false propaganda is engaging in lies. Naiomi Wolf may have had no intent to lie; she may be guilty of nothing more than sloppy journalism guided by her readiness to accept the story without question. In that I am not disagreeing with you. What I disagree with is the intent to spread falsehoods, which I thought was inherent in the content (subject title) of the post I responded to.

[bemildred]

134. I am not being mislead, are you?

If you are being mislead, I suggest you sharpen up your critical thinking skills, they can be very useful in many facets of life here in the good old USA. Or is it all the lesser people you are trying to protect?

[AtomicKitten]

16. I hate it when the leftwing mimics the rightwing, both embracing crap journalism

because they want to believe this kind of badly-sourced baseless accusation. It is more than disappointing to see Naomi and Michael join the ranks of people like Jane Hamsher and Glenn Greenwald who play fast and loose with the truth to further their shameless crusade to take down this president, noteworthy because it is a goal they share with their wingnut teabagger counterparts.

Informed points of view are forged in truth and the truth is still worth telling. K&R

[truedelphi]

46. Uh the originating statement that Naomi was using to base her article on

Came from Mayor Quan of Oakland being interviewed by the BBC.

Inother words, from the mahyor's own mouth came the admission of the cooridination of the evetns.

As far as I can tell, the BBC is a fairly decent news organization. And it was an interviw, not an editorial,t hat contained these facts.

[AtomicKitten]

50. No the original accusation came from an un-source piece in the Examiner.

You are conflating the facts here. Quan did have a phone conference with other mayors and law enforcement officials but there is NO EVIDENCE that DHS was involved. PERF arranged two of those conference calls but, again, there is no mention of DHS involvement, none whatsoever.

---> http://www.salon.com/2011/11/17/dhs_denies_ows_eviction_role/

Yesterday, the very funny but not exactly journalistic blog Wonkette posted a story “Surprise, Homeland Security Coordinates #OWS Crackdowns,” linking to a post in the Examiner stating that “according to one Justice official, each of those actions was coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI and other federal police agencies.”

snip
The Examiner story, however, cites just one unnamed Justice Department source — one or two sources short of non-attributed journalistic certainty. And it appeared in the Examiner: a content-aggregating website that posts “3,000 new stories per day written by more than 55,000 ‘Examiners,’ or paid local contributors.”

Citing the Examiner is the journalistic equivalent of saying, “my friend Bob told me.” And for what it’s worth, DHS rejects the accusation.

DHS has not been coordinating evictions with local law enforcement agencies, DHS spokesman Matt Chandler told Salon. The only exception, he said, was Portland, Ore., where the Federal Protective Service arrested protesters in federally owned Terry Schrunk Plaza.

“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said. “If a protest area is located on federal property and has been deemed unsanitary or unsafe by the General Services Administration or city officials, and they make a decision to evacuate participants, the Federal Protective Service will work with those officials to develop a plan to ensure the security and safety of everyone involved.”

This chaotic week of Occupy evictions has created fertile ground for rumors. And though both stories appear to be unsubstantiated, both have now gone viral: 11,000 Facebook shares of the Wonkette article, nearly 8,000 for the Examiner. Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman repeated the rumor on Truthdig, as did libertarian Reason magazine. And so did the progressive In These Times.

[Remember Me]

63. Not exactly unsourced

If that's what you meant to say.

The Examiner said this:

In addition to conferring with their fellow mayors, it appears city leadership also received an assist from the Department of Homeland Security, according to journalist Rick Ellis at the Examiner. Ellis spoke with a Justice official, who claims each of the Occupy raid actions were coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI, and other federal police agencies.

The official, who spoke on background to me late Monday evening, said that while local police agencies had received tactical and planning advice from national agencies, the ultimate decision on how each jurisdiction handles the Occupy protests ultimately rests with local law enforcement.

According to this official, in several recent conference calls and briefings, local police agencies were advised to seek a legal reason to evict residents of tent cities, focusing on zoning laws and existing curfew rules. Agencies were also advised to demonstrate a massive show of police force, including large numbers in riot gear. In particular, the FBI reportedly advised on press relations, with one presentation suggesting that any moves to evict protesters be coordinated for a time when the press was the least likely to be present.

The existence of these types of conference calls could help to explain the near-universal brutal police response to Occupy. A "massive show of police force" describes the scene of every raid, whether talking about major cities like Oakland or New York City, or other smaller Occupy locations like Chapel Hill or Nashville. This also helps to explain why assault weaponry like tear gas canisters and rubber bullets have been being used as a first-response rather than defensive measure.

Evicting protesters at a time "when the press was the least likely to be present" perfectly explains what happened during the eviction of Occupy Wall Street when Mayor Bloomberg dispatched the NYPD in the dead of night to raid the camp. Though police had obviously planned the midnight attack to keep media presence to a minimum, many still made the journey, but when they arrived numerous journalists were welcomed with a hostile response by authorities, and reported being bullied, threatened, and assaulted by police as they attempted to cover the raid.

Quan and Adams are the only mayors who have thus far admitted to the coordination, but if Quan's statement is accurate, there are many other city leaders who took part in the calls. Crackdowns in Salt Lake City, Albany, Denver, and elsewhere in the past few days suggest the synchronized assaults were planned to deal a swift, crushing blow to Occupy. It's unsurprising that such coordination would demand federal oversight, but it's also deeply disturbing that a federal agency may have participated in the plot, since the whole reason Occupy exists is to address the corruption of the government.

--- more at link: http://inthesetimes.com/uprising/entry/12303/mayors_dhs_coordinated_occupy_attacks/


AFAIC, that's better sourcing than we usually get regarding our government's going's on.

[AtomicKitten]

75. "Citing the Examiner is the journalistic equivalent of saying, 'My friend Bob told me.' "

link: http://www.salon.com/2011/11/17/dhs_denies_ows_eviction_role/

The Examiner story, however, cites just one unnamed Justice Department source — one or two sources short of non-attributed journalistic certainty. And it appeared in the Examiner: a content-aggregating website that posts “3,000 new stories per day written by more than 55,000 ‘Examiners,’ or paid local contributors.”

Citing the Examiner is the journalistic equivalent of saying, “my friend Bob told me.” And for what it’s worth, DHS rejects the accusation.

[Remember Me]

77. Oh, well, THAT certainly settles it: DHS rejects the accusation.

Yessiree, now I'm all convinced. My government has never lied to me before. Nuh-huh. Never not.

[AtomicKitten]

81. Well that's a cherry-picked retort. Too bad really; Salon is reliable, the Examiner not so much.

[cui bono]

89. The poster mentioned you believing DHS denial.

I find that pretty amusing myself. You believe them over a reporter?

It's not Salon v. Examiner, it's DHS v. reporter.

Don't forget, Obama denied having back room deals with health insurance companies until he could deny it no longer. So it's much more likely the reporter is telling truth than DHS doing so. MUCH more likely.

[AtomicKitten]

92. I believe what responsible journalists are concluding, that Naomi screwed the pooch on this.

Keeping in mind conspiracy theories aren't factual, believe whatever you want.
I require evidence of accusations made.

[Remember Me]

121. Excellent point. Thanks for making it.

It's the very thing, the inherent belief of DHS over a reporter, that keeps me going, "Whaaaa....??" I appreciate you articulating it for me.

[BklnDem75]

142. So the stance is believe anything over DHS

DHS is evil. Facts don't matter anymore.

[mojowork_n]

18. Gimme a break. Naomi Wolf and Judith Miller in the same breath?

Not in a million years. Totally bogus comparison.

What about the Chris Hayes story on the Public Relations firm -- with 3 former Boehner aides working there -- that
put an 875,000 dollar price tag for a coordinated push back on OWS?

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/21/373143/washington-lobbyists-occupy-wall-street/

Here's another example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2379871

[Orangepeel]

19. A republican lobbying firm shopping a plan to do background checks on activists

Is not the same thing as DHS coordinating attacks.

[zalinda]

20. She was arrested, maybe she saw them. n/t

[Scuba]

21. I believe that reporting should be based on facts, not conjecture....

... I also believe that 18 cities "cracking down" simultaneously is not a coincidence.

[TheWraith]

31. Except that almost none of those cities actually "cracked down."

Oakland kicked the protesters out. A couple days later so did NYC. That's hardly the nationwide jack-booted police state summoned by the conspiracy theorists.

[Remember Me]

76. Oh, please. Those absolutely were crackdowns -- riot gear and all

in more locations than the 2 you name.

[cui bono]

78. There were more than those cities. I can't name them now but I read about them at the time.

I believe Denver was one, somewhere in Oklahoma and Minnesota or Michigan... Look at what happened in Berkeley, Davis...

I haven't heard any definitive proof but with the holidays I haven't been able to read as much about it all. I don't doubt there was something going on. There was definitely the phone call, we heard about that straight from one of the participants, Mayor Quan. How far the planing went is unknown, but there was definite communication. That cannot be denied.

[Remember Me]

120. up to 40 cities, according to one report

Reports of at least a dozen cities and some indication of as many as 40 accepting PERF advice and/or strategic documents include
San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Portland, Oakland, Atlanta, and Washington DC. The San Francisco Police Department and Mayor Ed Lee's
office did not returned the Guardian's request for comment about the PERF calls by press time. However, Oakland interim
Police Chief Howard Jordan was quoted by the Associated Press confirming Oakland and San Francisco police involvement
in the strategy sessions. PERF coordinated a November 10 conference call with city police chiefs across the country –
and many of these cities undertook crackdowns shortly afterward.
http://www.sfbg.com/politics/2011/11/18/cop-group-coordinating-occupy-crackdowns

[kenfrequed]

23. The actual article

How about the actual article rather than the BS noise to signal response.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

[emulatorloo]

26. All the citations go back to the bogus "The Examiner" blogger.

That!s a fact. Your link only confirms that.

[Sparkly]

24. I have to agree.

Anonymous sources, no hard evidence... Looks like there were conference calls among local agencies and maybe Feds (FBI), which is a far cry from proof that local police are being directly "coordinated" by DHS.

[emulatorloo]

25. Thank you. This is happening more and more at DU

[doccraig67]

27. originated here I think

Oakland Mayor Jean Quan Admits Cities Coordinated Crackdown on Occupy Movement
By: Gregg Levine Tuesday November 15, 2011 6:45 am.
http://my.firedoglake.com/gregglevine/2011/11/15/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-admits-cities-coordinated-crackdown-on-occupy-movement/

[doccraig67]

28. Ouan mentons conference call with 18 Mayors about handling OWS

Took the time to listen to recording of Jean Quan of Oakland and she definitely says that she was on a conference call with 18 mayor which definitely seems like co-ordination to me. No proof or mention of Homeland Security.

[AtomicKitten]

44. Exactly. No proof or mention of Homeland Security.

[Tx4obama]

114. Regarding the mayors' more than once a month conference call

See the OP here for the conference call details: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2327356

[Life Long Dem]

29. Unless she can correct this...

Naomi Wolf’s credibility just dropped a notch.

[progressoid]

30. Save the Pacific Northwest tree octopus (Octopus paxarbolis)

http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/

[snot]

32. I agree responsible journalists should be clear re-

what if any evidence supports their alleged facts.

At the same time, this debate reminds me of those who quibble with Hilary Clinton's "vast, right-wing conspiracy."

It's like, yeah, we have no proof that the Koch Bros. sit down regularly with the BFEE and Karl Rove to coordinate strategy.

At the same time, a lot of conservatives hang out with each other or at least keep in touch with each other. They don't have to communicate explicitly about their goals in order to share them, and they probably do communicate explicitly, by one means or another, re- ideas about how to further their goals, and actively assist one another when occasion arises.

In the present instance, we know that bunches of mayors communicate explicitly and regularly, and we know DHS was in on this particular conference, and we know that happened not long before a nationwide crackdown on Nov. 15, which happened to happen just 2 days before large demonstrations planned for Nov. 17.

While it may be irresponsible without more evidence to convict any particular constituency, it is just as irresponsible not to ask who had the motive and means.

[snot]

35. P.S.: It's not clear Wolf misrepresented anything as being more than speculation:

She wrote, "for the DHS to be on a call with mayors, the logic of its chain of command and accountability implies that congressional overseers, with the blessing of the White House, told the DHS to authorise mayors to order their police forces – pumped up with millions of dollars of hardware and training from the DHS – to make war on peaceful citizens."

I think it's at least a fair question.

[AtomicKitten]

37. DHS was not involved in any conference calls.

There is NO EVIDENCE of this. Naomi's accusation was based on one piece in the Examiner making the un-sourced accusation that the DHS was coordinating attacks on the OWS.

PERF, a private company, coordinated two phone conferences with mayors and local law enforcement comparing notes on OWS. Mayors and law enforcement have regular conference calls anyway, so this does't mean anything. A Republican lobbying firm, another private company, marketed a plan that cost some $800K+ to do background checks on OWS activists.

Clearly these private companies are trying to make a buck dealing with OWS, but that has nothing to do with DHS and there is absolutely no evidence that it did.

Those intent on tracing this back to the WH are doing so based on one badly-sourced, hell, non-sourced article in the Examiner. Wonkette repeated the accusation based on the Examiner's piece and the rest is history. This is a spurious hit on the WH for no other reason than to set them up as being the enemy. They have already put the WH into an untenable position of opening their mouth and being accused of trying to co-opt the movement for political gain or saying nothing which earns them the accusation of abandoning the movement.

[banned from Kos]

33. Two big lies circulated here - the Fed's $16 trillion in "giveaways" to the banks and

we are on the hook for a preposterous $75 trillion in Bank of America derivatives.

Neither is remotely true and of course ignored by the mainstream media.

[SidDithers]

34. K&R...

Klein's article has been posted at least 3 different times in GD over the last 3 days.

Bullshit not only turns into facts, but it multiplies too.

Sid

[rhett o rick]

38. I appreciate your efforts to shield HOMELAND SECURITY, but this is right down their

ally. This is exactly what they like to get into. All they have to do to justify their participation is to decide that OWS presents terrorist actions. I am going to believe they are involved until proven otherwise.

I also dont believe that Oswald killed Pres Kennedy. I have a inherent distrust in big government. You apparently dont. Heil Homelund Security.

[AtomicKitten]

41. "I am going to believe they were involved until proven otherwise."

Of course you are because journalistic standards fly out the window when you stumble across something you just want to believe.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6cKkltBtH30/SdZou4ytF-I/AAAAAAAAARA/aTAhE0AeWhQ/s400/I+want+to+believe.jpg

[SidDithers]

45. I like this one...

Sid

[AtomicKitten]

47. omg!!proof!!! elevens!!!run!!!

[SidDithers]

48. ...

:hi:

Sid

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enrique]

39. this is oversensitivity on the part of the Obama-centric folks

the angryblacklady post is so filled with invective that I can't even follow it. It pretends to be a critique of Naomi Wolf's article, but it screams "LEAVE OBAMA ALONE!!!!!"

The Joshua Holland article she links to is good and raises good points, but it's hardly a "debunking" and certainly does not justify the screeds against Michael Moore and Naomi Wolf, both of whose articles (Moore's was actually an interview with Keith Olbermann) I thought were also good.

[AtomicKitten]

40. Nonsense. Naomi had NO SUBSTANTIATION for her accusation. Zip, nada, goose-egg.

This entire brouhaha traces back to a piece written in the Examiner with the accusation that DHS was coordinating a crackdown on OWS based on a badly written piece with one, count them one, unsourced accusation from allegedly the Justice Dept. That's it. Wonkette picked up the Examiner article and it burned across the internet like wildfire.

While it is convenient for you to attribute this to "over-sensitivity on the part of Obama-centric folks," your conclusion is no different than it has ever been here on these boards and that is Obama sucks ass and anybody that supports him does too.

Your enthusiasm and willingness to lower the threshold for journalistic standards is what sticks out here. You want to believe the OWS crackdown is being coordinated from the WH based entirely on your antipathy toward this president which you have expressed here over and over again.

edited to post this from Salon:

link: http://www.salon.com/2011/11/17/dhs_denies_ows_eviction_role/

Yesterday, the very funny but not exactly journalistic blog Wonkette posted a story “Surprise, Homeland Security Coordinates #OWS Crackdowns,” linking to a post in the Examiner stating that “according to one Justice official, each of those actions was coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI and other federal police agencies.”

- snip

The Examiner story, however, cites just one unnamed Justice Department source — one or two sources short of non-attributed journalistic certainty. And it appeared in the Examiner: a content-aggregating website that posts “3,000 new stories per day written by more than 55,000 ‘Examiners,’ or paid local contributors.”

Citing the Examiner is the journalistic equivalent of saying, “my friend Bob told me.” And for what it’s worth, DHS rejects the accusation.

DHS has not been coordinating evictions with local law enforcement agencies, DHS spokesman Matt Chandler told Salon. The only exception, he said, was Portland, Ore., where the Federal Protective Service arrested protesters in federally owned Terry Schrunk Plaza.

“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said. “If a protest area is located on federal property and has been deemed unsanitary or unsafe by the General Services Administration or city officials, and they make a decision to evacuate participants, the Federal Protective Service will work with those officials to develop a plan to ensure the security and safety of everyone involved.”

This chaotic week of Occupy evictions has created fertile ground for rumors. And though both stories appear to be unsubstantiated, both have now gone viral: 11,000 Facebook shares of the Wonkette article, nearly 8,000 for the Examiner. Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman repeated the rumor on Truthdig, as did libertarian Reason magazine. And so did the progressive In These Times.

[Enrique]

52. too late to edit the post, but I changed my mind about Wolf's article

I don't think it's good at all. She does take the thinly-sourced Examiner article too far.

[Pirate Smile]

111. That's good of you to acknowledge that.

[cui bono]

90. Exactly. And this thread shows why the "ignore" function on this site is a bad thing.

I'm sure most of the posters on this thread are on ignore from those who utilize critical thinking in their assessment of our president's job performance and therefore this thread is getting less responses from those that don't have their blinders on than it deserves.

[geek tragedy]

113. Wolf's article was WND-level junk opinionating.

She think Peter King reports to Obama.

[truedelphi]

42. Excuse me, didn't the source of Naomi's peiece come fromt he fact that numerous Bay Area newspapers

Reported on the FACT that Mayor Quyan of Oakland sought out the advice of fifteen to eighteen other administrators, police department chiefs and goddess knows who else, before making her ill-advised decisions to let the police Oakland was using to attack people at the OCcupy SItes. I will be abck in a minute with the links.

[AtomicKitten]

43. There is NO PROOF that DHS was involved in these phone conferences. None whatsoever.

As I posted above: PERF, a private company, coordinated two phone conferences with mayors and local law enforcement comparing notes on OWS. Mayors and law enforcement have regular conference calls anyway, so this does't mean anything. A Republican lobbying firm, another private company, marketed a plan that cost some $800K+ to do background checks on OWS activists.

Clearly these private companies are trying to make a buck dealing with OWS, but that has nothing to do with DHS and there is absolutely no evidence that it did.

Those intent on tracing this back to the WH are doing so based on one badly-sourced, hell, non-sourced article in the Examiner. Wonkette repeated the accusation based on the Examiner's piece and the rest is history. This is a spurious hit on the WH for no other reason than to set them up as being the enemy. They have already put the WH into an untenable position of opening their mouth and being accused of trying to co-opt the movement for political gain or saying nothing which earns them the accusation of abandoning the movement.

[truedelphi]

53. What do you mean when you say:

so this does't mean anything.

You do understand who PERF happens to be. It is another Black ops style group that poses as legit. They are the types of people that took out Steve Cubby when he was running for the governor of the state of California. I don't mean that they killed him; they knew he smoked marijuana, as he was running under the banner of legitimatizing Med marijuna. So they staked out his home, used night vision aparatus etc and busted him when he was smoking indoors in his own home.

They're headed by the type of person who is right now sitting at a table having a cocktail and discussing how the Occupy operations can easily solve the problem of how to inflate the prison population. And shore up AMerican industries as well. One way of American executives
getting to profit from industry is to use the same sort of low paid labor that exists in places like CHina. Expanding the prison population would be a wondrous thing for these people.

You may have never had the "privilege" of knowing any of these people. I have. They' re a
most scary lot. Nuclear waste? Plenty of Indjun reservation lands to dump that stuff on. They are the sort of person that gets turned to when someone has a Karen Silkwood style problem.

[AtomicKitten]

55. It means that phone conferences between cities isn't unusual.

It means that PERF decided to try to make some money off OWS and put themselves in the center of two conference calls. No doubt they are douchebags trying to a make a buck; thanks for your input on this particular entity. Same goes for the Republican lobbyist group marketing an $875,000 plan to go after OWS (background checks of the activists, etc.) Yes that is truly repulsive. I agree. But Naomi connected this action to the WH via the DHS and there is simply no evidence to substantiate that, and that's crap journalism plain and simple and something that is quite shocking come from someone like Naomi.

[Remember Me]

60. Proof? You're demanding PROOF? Plenty of people get convicted and

go to prison or even get the death penalty on less than PROOF.

Allegations by responsible people isn't enough to have it reported and not be smacked down like this disinformation piece?

Why are people defending DHS? The whole infrastructure was designed to handle shit like this.

Nor is it necessarioly a "hit" on the WH. If you think that the WH has its fingers in all these little details, I've got a bridge or two for you. FWIW, I think the MOST involved the WH is in -- to repeat myself -- shit like this is to turn their collective backs and let that well-oiled, hungry and thirsty domestic surveillance machine that's been being constructed since, oh, the 1940s to do its thing.

And the FBI is forever infiltrating domestic peace groups, so Obama doesn't even need to think about it, it's done with or without him.

Your insistance that DHS just couldn't have been involved is sad. I don't know if it's because of your loyalty to Obama, or your naivete or something else entirely. But whatever the source, it's sad.

[AtomicKitten]

62. DHS was not involved in the crackdowns and there is no evidence to support they were.

You can believe whatever you want for whatever reason, I don't care. But the truth is still worth telling, even around here where it is routinely distorted in pursuit of an agenda that is somewhere between just plain creepy and nefarious. Sounds to me like you are content to simply rail against TPTB without care for truth and accuracy in reporting, and that is what is truly sad, for you.

[Remember Me]

88. I actually care a lot about truth and accuracy in reporting -- and WE GOT IT

in the Enquirer article. One more time, here's a recap:

In addition to conferring with their fellow mayors, it appears city leadership also received an assist from the Department of Homeland Security, according to journalist Rick Ellis at the Examiner. Ellis spoke with a Justice official, who claims each of the Occupy raid actions were coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI, and other federal police agencies.

That reveals an unnamed source -- which sometimes (but not always) indicates questionable authenticity and accuracy -- and that the person Ellis got this information from was with the Justice Department (e.g., connected with or knowledgeable about FBI??), and that paints a cautionary but explicitly revealing picture. It's a picture that i hope will be fleshed out and validated, or fully and completely refuted -- with ample proof since I distrust my government so much -- at some point in the future.

What I find interesting is that there are people here who are so willing to completely and totally try to refute this short paragraph without any adequate countering information other than their -- well, personal agenda.

[Remember Me]

122. Just evidence that DHS is involved with PERF and PERF with the crackdown cities

that's all. See some of my other posts of today.

[truedelphi]

64. It is sad that people here somehow think that

An attack on DHS is an attack on Obama. Though I guess if he had cared to, he might have tried to clean the agency up. Only another President, one named Kennedy tried to clean up the CIA, and we all know how that turned out.

But I did think most here understood that DHS is nothing more than an agency of spooksters. Tremendously well funded, extremely powerful. Even Jesse Ventura could not see his lawsuit against TSA go through the courts here.

I keep getting reminded of "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."

Of course, in a democracy, we would have a free press to shine light into the darkness, but that isn't happening anymore, except for the internet.

[AtomicKitten]

67. What's sad is that you apparently don't care about accurate reporting.

You apparently just want to blame everyone, someone, anybody.

[Remember Me]

79. You haven't proven inaccurate reporting --

you can CALL it that, but you don't have any PROOF yourself. Has Ellison recanted his article?

[AtomicKitten]

85. "Citing the Examiner is the journalistic equivalent of saying, 'My friend Bob told me.' "

You know how downthread you declared somebody had lost their credibility because they realized the reporting on this whole mess was a disaster from start-to-finish? It turns out it's your own lack of credibility you detected, but clearly insight does not appear to be within your grasp.

[truedelphi]

103. Thank you, remember me.

I was beginning to think the serotonin in Thursdays turkey had recalled my brain cells.

Associated Press reported on Mayor Quan's statement to effect that she was on a conference call with over fifteen other people in other cities.

BBC interviewed her, and she told them about the conference call during that interview.

No one on this topic has a link to any proof that none of that happened.

[AtomicKitten]

106. Did she mention that DHS was coordinating the calls? No she didn't. That's the point.

Nobody is denying the coordination of mayors and law enforcement from various cities. However, insinuating that this was coordinated by DHS is just nonsense and you have no proof, not even a mention of that anywhere.

Thanks for playing. Drive through.

[truedelphi]

107. Excuse me, but do you live in California?

If you have, you might be aware that if she was seeking such outside help, about a local matter, she may have stood in violation of the Brown Act.

And it is also interesting to note that her Deputy Mayor has resigned, as has the Chief City attorney for Oakland.

[Remember Me]

119. Excellent points

I would also like to add that AtomicKitten keeps saying that there's no proof that DHS was on the call or coordinated it.

This is the kind of thing, in an essentially fascist nation like ours, where you don't need and likely won't GET "proof" that would satisfy one such as AtomicKitten. It's just the way things work. In a separate post today I pointed out indication of just what I'd suspected -- that there are AMPLE connections between PERF and DHS. That's all that's needed. If someone can't imagine the really strong of DHS being involved at some level -- if only watching from behind the shadows and nodding approval or not -- with the squelching of the OWS folks, there's not much I'm going to be able to do to convince them.

But it's really unnecessary, IMO, to attack Naomi Wolf's credibility, though very revealing in the way it happened, as I pointed out.

[truedelphi]

123. When you think of all the lies that have been perpetuated over the last

Decade, it does amaze a person to think that the people trumping up this "Naomi Wolf lacks credibility" issue are so concerned about this particular issue. Does n't the constant lies issued on a daily basis about how Social Security being insolvent enrage them? Or the hopelessness of those on MediCare, who better be prepared to have a great deal of additional expensive insurance in the next six months. All because no one in Congress other than Bernie Sanders has the balls to say that it is time to have Single Payer Universal HC.


What about the fact that the Congress and President have done so little to return jobs to this nation? Were this not the case, many of those out in the streets would be employed, and would not see the need to be demonstrating. As I pointed out in several remarks - all it would take is an Executive Order issued by the president that states that unemployed Americans get training and are hired by government agencies like Fannie, Freddie and Sallie so that they are making collection calls, and not people in Bangladesh!

I have a huge long list of people whose credibility is shot through and through, and Naomi Wolf is not on that list.

[Raksha]

98. Creepy...

Re I keep getting reminded of "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."

I keep trying to tell myself it doesn't fit the context--but it does.

[treestar]

94. If it were possible to have a post moved to the 911 forum

and not a whole thread, this post qualifies.

You're practically advocating that there be no law, since the system is not and cannot be perfect. Or do you think crimes never occur or that no one is ever guilty?

[Life Long Dem]

125. Wow.

"You're demanding PROOF? Plenty of people get convicted and

go to prison or even get the death penalty on less than PROOF."

Fox News doesn't use proof. I guess they are okay with you because proof doesn't matter.

How low some will sink to smear Obama.:silly:

[truedelphi]

49. Mayor Quan was interviewed by the BBC and also

The Associated PRess reported on this.

here are many blogs linking to the FACTS:

From: Russia Today

http://rt.com/usa/news/occupy-crackdown-oakland-mayor-419/

If you thought the recent crackdowns of Occupy encampments across the country was more than a coincidence, there is a good chance you were right. Oakland Mayor Jean Quan admits to talking to other cities before the massive coast-to-coast evictions .
In an interview this morning with the BBC, Mayor Quan reveals that she spoke with officials from other cities over the phone before a Monday morning raid that led to the eviction of hundreds of Occupy Oakland protesters and the arrests of many.
“I was recently on a conference call with 18 cities across the country who had the same situation,” says Quan, who goes on to claim that the movement, in her opinion, had transition from a political movement to one marred by anarchists.
####

http://capitoilette.com/2011/11/15/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-admits-cities-coordinated-crackdown-on-occupy-movement/

Jesse Fruhwirth (@fruhwirth) on November 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm said:
In every community: under your own open-records laws in your state, demand from the city administration all records regarding the Occupy movement beginning about June 9 when Adbusters first called for occupation. Do it now!
####
From Mother Jones:
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/11/occupy-protest-coordinate-crackdown-wall-street

, Top Stories
Mayors and Cops Traded Strategies for Dealing With Occupy Protesters
—By Andy Kroll
| Wed Nov. 16, 2011 7:50 AM PST26. Eric Wagner/FlickrIn a recent interview with the BBC, Oakland Mayor Jean Quan let slip that a group of 18 mayors had recently discussed the Occupy protests' impact in their respective cities during a conference call hosted by the US Conference of Mayors. Quan's comments immediately touched off speculation that the rash of recent arrests and crackdowns on Occupy protesters—in Salt Lake City, Denver, Portland, Oakland, and lower Manhattan, all within a four-day span, beginning November 12—were part of a coordinated effort by mayors and police departments.

Read Josh Harkinson's first-hand account from the raid of Zuccotti and check out all the rest of our #OWS coverage.An official with the US Conference of Mayors confirmed to Mother Jones that, during conference calls on October 13 and November 10, mayors and top police brass discussed the Occupy protests, any "issues of concern" with the protests, and how they're responding to them. "Included in the discussions have been efforts cities have made to accommodate the demonstrators and maintain public health and safety," the USCM official said. "Other topics discussed include the costs cities are incurring as a result of the events and the impact on other city service and activities."

The USCM official, however, denied that there was any coordination or planning between mayors and police officials about breaking up Occupy protests or tearing down encampments.
A spokeswoman for Quan said she didn't know what exactly was discussed about the Occupy protests on the call. Spokespeople for Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker and the Salt Lake Police Department said they did not participate in the conference call. A spokesman for New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Denver Mayor Michael Hancock also said those mayors did not join the USCM's calls. Spokespeople for Portland Mayor Sam Adams and Denver Mayor Michael Hancock didn't respond to requests for comment.
The USCM's conference calls weren't the only ones connecting mayors and police chiefs from around the country. As the Associated Press reports, the Police Executive Research Forum held calls on October 11 and November 4, when mayors and authorities discussed dealing with Occupy protesters and their camps.

From "In These Times" -
Did Mayors, DHS Coordinate Occupy Attacks? - Uprising www.inthesetimes.com/.../mayors_dhs_coordinated_occupy_attacks/

[AtomicKitten]

51. DHS was not involved in the phone conferences and there is no mention or evidence that they were.

You are conflating the original accusation as put forth in an un-sourced Examiner article, the one that Naomi based her accusatory piece on, and that is that the WH vis a vis the DHS was coordinating the crackdowns on OWS. That is completely unsubstantiated. DHS was not involved in any of these phone conferences.

[truedelphi]

54. You can believe what ever it is you want to.

[AtomicKitten]

56. I believe that journalists are obligated to report responsibly.

[truedelphi]

58. And your proof that this quote of Mayor Quan's was not reported during

An interview of Quan by the BBC is where?

And by the way, The DHS offers its top positions to its top spook meisters. The major spooks in this nation are under no obligation to tell the truth.

Again, you are free to believe whatever it is that you wanna believe.

I am just sayin'.

[AtomicKitten]

61. The crackdowns were coordinated but not with the DHS. Quan never said the DHS was involved.

The crackdowns were coordinated alright but with other cities' mayors and law enforcement officials, not with DHS. PERF was willing to offer their 2-centsworth (for a hefty price no doubt), but there is no mention anywhere that the DHS was involved and you have no reason to believe they were involved (unless you want to, of course - just sayin').

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

87. Conspiracy theories are not factual. You do know the difference, right?

Face it, Naomi screwed the pooch on this.

[cui bono]

91. Conspiracy theories are not factual? Are you kidding me?

Do you also think that scientific theories are just theories?

Many conspiracy theories have factual bases. They are labeled conspiracy theories to keep them on the fringe and because they have not been thrust into the M$M and accepted by the masses.

[Remember Me]

80. Thank you nt

[AtomicKitten]

82. Again, no proof DHS was involved in the conference calls and THAT'S A FACT!!

[Remember Me]

96. And the rest of that FACT is that there are (to me) credible allegations

that they WERE involved.

:D

[AtomicKitten]

99. Wanting it to be true and taken seriously alas does not make it so.

[Vattel]

57. Naomi Wolf rivals Melissa Harris-Perry for crackpot of the month.

[Remember Me]

66. Boy You have no idea how much that erodes YOUR credibility

People really have to be careful what they say -- it can be so self-revealing.

[AtomicKitten]

68. Do some homework before casting aspersions. Naomi screwed the pooch on this one.

[Remember Me]

95. Something about Naomi Klein

Have you read her book, Shock Doctrine?

I didn't think so.

She spent a good piece of her life studying and documenting -- with footnotes like you wouldn't believe -- the presence and advance of fascism in our hemisphere and around the world and how TPTB use Shock as a canvas on which to paint their various oppressions. I started to read it but could only get so far -- maybe 1/3 of the way. I'll pick it up again some day when I get the strength to do so. It's not an easy read.

But I can say this about it, without equivocation:

NO ONE can adequately understand what we are facing in this country and the world without getting a pretty good grounding in what she talks about and reveals in her book. It's not the only place to get this "education," but it's a very good and concentrated place to get it quick.

Something happens to you when you invest yourself that thoroughly -- or even far less thoroughly -- in a particular area of study in order to write a book. You develop a feel, a 6th sense, for what is going on. Maybe you plug in to the collective unconsciousness or something, I dunno. But it doesn't matter. What matters is that as other things unfold, you pick up on the clues very quickly and see things that will take others much longer to see and understand. You get it, and you can sound like a prophet because you KNOW tha patterns, you KNOW where this leads, you KNOW that every time anything like this has ever happened before, it's meant such-and-such.

Had this information about DHS involvement come from a source that was not known to me to be as credible as Naomi Wolf (despite the strenous but laughable efforts to discredit her in this thread), I'd have taken it with much more a grain of salt.

She COULD turn out to be wrong, I suppose. But even though I'm not a betting woman, I'd lay heavy odds in her favor in a heartbeat.

You can choose to continue to hold to your view of things, or you can educate yourself a bit and a good place -- but not the only place -- to start might be with Wolf's book. You could certainly do worse.

The world is not as you think it. We can only make it better if we understand how it REALLY is, no matter how hard that is to look at, truly see, and accept. When I say it's gut-wrenching, that's no exaggeration. Those who prefer a more polyanna-ish view of the world -- including various parts and pieces of this administration -- only make it harder to make the difference we so need to make.

[AtomicKitten]

97. I've read her book and it has nothing to do with her crap-sourced latest piece.

Thanks for sharing, though. It explains your inflexibility in assessing this latest brouhaha accurately.

[Remember Me]

100. Well, then you didn't understand what you read that well --

If there's anyone I'd trust to sniff out creeping fascist and efforts to squelch protest in order to preserve fascism, Naomi Wolf would ceertainly be among them. Others would include the likes of Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, etc.

[AtomicKitten]

101. Well she effed up on this one whether you admit it or not.

[Remember Me]

117. Here's what I'll admit -- and offer an apology as well.

I've got the wrong Naomi. The one who wrote the article in question is NOT the author of Shock Doctrine. She is an author, and a fine one, but not necessarily an authority on fascism.

Naomi Klein is the author of Shock Doctrine.

So. I apologize for bringing her into it, even though I'm not disavowing my basic stand on the issues. I do not understand the vehement defense of an organization that is fascism writ large in our once-upon-a-time so-called democracy. It's might suspicious, frankly,

[AtomicKitten]

148. No worries. I share the dunce cap because I mixed up the Naomi's as well.

[geek tragedy]

112. This is Naomi WOLF not Naomi KLEIN. nt

[Remember Me]

124. I have to partially disavow my own post

I have ALWAYS had trouble keeping Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf separate. I stand behind everything I said about Naomi Klein in this post -- but she wasn't the author of the article in quesetion. The article was written by Naomi Wolf, another author I respect but not the author of Shock Doctrine.

So, does that mean I withdraw my support of what Wolf wrote? No, it doesn't. She was careful enough for the critical reader to be able to sort out fact from speculation, and also note well the "un-named" source (which some here insist on equating with NON-sourced -- which it certainly could be when done as part of a pro-war propaganda campaign by the arm of a rightwing Department of Defense, but far less likely to be the case when offered by an unalied journalist).

There's no proof that DHS coordinated the attacks on Occupy protesters, and every likelihood they knew all about it and may have been involved in the coordination through PERF, which appears to have been absolutely involved in the coordination.

[dionysus]

143. Naomi Klein is not Naomi Wolf. 2 different people...

[NYC_SKP]

145. Oh, FFS. Not Naomi KLEIN-- Naomi WOLF wrote the piece of trash article for the guardian.

Here, I posted an OP for just this purpose!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2389724

:hi:

[rhett o rick]

110. Your defense of Homeland Security is scary. Whose side are you on? nm

[AtomicKitten]

147. I'm on the side of truth in journalism and responsible reporting.

[Vattel]

69. I know, people who like evidence have no credibility.

[Luminous Animal]

59. Link to Joshua Holland's debunking at Alternet....

http://www.alternet.org/story/153222/naomi_wolf%E2%80%99s_%E2%80%98shocking_truth%E2%80%99_about_the_%E2%80%98occupy_crackdowns%E2%80%99_offers_anything_but_truth?page=entire

[AtomicKitten]

65. Thanks for posting this.

:)

[Remember Me]

93. This is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT -- THANK YOU!!

It demonstrates perfectly the method by which disinformation -- and in this case, the pushback to try to refute and squelch information is handled. I'm telling you, it's perfect.

Let's have a look:

The difference between local officials talking to each other — or federal law enforcement agencies advising them on what they see as “best practices” for evicting local occupations — and some unseen hand directing, incentivizing or coercing municipalities to do so when they would not otherwise be so inclined is not a minor one. It’s not a matter of semantics or a distinction without difference. As I wrote recently, “if federal authorities were ordering cities to crack down on their local occupations in a concerted effort to wipe out a movement that has spread like wildfire across the country, that would indeed be a huge, and hugely troubling story. In the United States, policing protests is a local matter, and law enforcement agencies must remain accountable for their actions to local officials. Local government’s autonomy in this regard is an important principle.”

All very, very true. But not what was charged at all. The government can coordinate out to yang yang and NEVER risk being accused of "directing, incentivizing, or coercing" anyone to do anything. No one suggested that the feds "ordered" citi4es to crack down on their local occupations.

But for cities willing or perhaps even desperate to clean up the and stop a protest, there was that entirely voluntary, coordinated phone call from those really nice and helpful people at PERF -- who just happen to be friends of people who know even so much more, our very own DHS.

But there has not been a single report offered by any media outlet suggesting that anyone – federal officials or police organizations – is directing or in any way exerting pressure on cities to crack down on their occupations.

Nope, because that's not what's happening.

Instead, there have been a lot of dark ruminations that such an effort is underway – notably by Naomi Wolf in an error-filled blog-post and a somewhat bizarre column for The Guardian in which Wolf takes an enormous leap away from any known facts to suggest that Congress is ordering cities to smash the Occupy Movement in order to preserve their own economic privilege.

Once again, not a single word of that has ANY relevance to what Wolf suggested, or anyone -- ANYONE else -- reported. I added italics for the introduction here of what is called "loaded words" -- words designed to color the perceptions on the part of the reader, in this case about Wolf, and that she's bascially not to be trusted. It's an irrelevant refutation of charges that have NOT been leveled (which are usually called strawmen fallacies of logic), and a very clear attack on her credibility.

I'm surprised and disgusted that AlterNet printed it. And might take the time to tell them so.

[AtomicKitten]

102. But which is more perfect:

"Naomi Wolf’s ‘Shocking Truth’ About the ‘Occupy Crackdowns’ Offers Anything but the Truth"

-- or --

"Naomi Wolf's latest theory veers wildly from the known facts."

[SnakeEyes]

105. Sadly...

DU is not innocent of this either. Stories such as this, and including this, were DU topics that never got shredded for being weakly or not-sourced at all.

[Nancy Waterman]

133. Thank you for posting this!

People really need to develop some critical thinking and stop believing all
the conspiracy theories that are spewed out.

[Cigar11]

140. You can waist a lot of really good time trying to train an idiot on the facts; but why?

[MadrasT]

149. Thank you

The thing that gets my feathers fluffled is that:

a) Mayors of big cities having conference calls to discuss how they might each respond to Occupations does not mean their efforts were "coordinated". Big city mayors talk to each other. That is not exactly front page news or a big secret.

and

b) EVEN IF DHS was involved in any of those calls, they could have been acting as consultants. Participation does not equal "DHS was in charge of (or ordered) massive Occupy crackdowns."

I can't stand DHS. I think the entire organization is absurd and continually in violation of the Constitution.

But there is just no real evidence they were "in charge" of a dang thing with respect to the Occupations.

I love a conspiracy theory as much as the next person. And I spent most of Bush's second term being sure he and Cheney and Rumsfeld were fixin' to ship us off to FEMA camps.

But this one doesn't hold water. Shame on Naomi. I lost a lot of respect for her.