It just seems to me it it no longer about HCR - It's about people painted into corners

[Jersey Devil]

with no way out or way to avoid losing face except to bark and carp no matter how many facts they are presented with clearly demonstrating that the health care bill is a giant step forward no matter how flawed it may be. I also think it has become an excuse to replay the primaries for many.

I think the bill will be improved somewhat in committee but I am not expecting miracles. When it is over, like the primaries, I would expect everyone at DU to unite once again behind Obama. Anything else would guarantee a Republican majority once again in at least the Senate in 2010 and probably make Obama a one term President. Are the flaws in HCR really worth that result?

I expect this string will probably be locked pretty quickly but I had to get it off my chest.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

1. If you recall the primaries....

There was some SERIOUS vitriol being spewed between the two camps. Fact is, there were only subtle shades of difference between Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama -- nothing that would engender the type of mud-slinging that went on. So I think you're right -- there are some people who have ego's invested on this subject, and they're going to carry on regardless of the facts.

[salguine]

2. "I would expect everyone at DU to unite once again behind Obama." What do you think

should happen to people who fail to shut up and fall in line?

Frankly I don't give a shit if we end up with a Republican majority in 2010 because to be quite honest, I'm just as fucked either way. It literally makes no difference, and that's not simply spouting off rhetoric. This health care "reform" actually leaves me worse off than if they had simply done nothing.

[Jersey Devil]

4. Yes, I would expect anyone who cares about a Democratic majority

in Congress or having a Democratic President in 2012 to unite as Democrats once the process is over.

"I'm just as fucked either way" tells me you see no difference between Democrats and Republicans and it makes me wonder how anyone who posts on DU can be that blind.

"Worse off"? That's baloney.

[salguine]

29. I don't give a rat's ass about a (D) behind anyone's name. I'll put principle before

party any and every time, as should anyone who cares about democracy. Why should I care about a Democratic majority in Congress or a Democratic President simply for the sake of having it? I'm more interested in what they do—or don't do—than in what they call themselves.

I'm actually not seeing a whole hell of a lot of difference between Democrats and Republicans these days, now that you ask. I might also submit that if you really think the Democratic Party, short of a very few individuals, actually cares about you or me or anyone else who can't shit a gold bar, any more than the Republicans do, then I'm not the blind one.

And don't tell me "baloney" when I say it'll leave me worse off. You don't fucking know me and you don't know my circumstances, pal. (Come to think of it, don't tell anyone "baloney". Only people who subscribe to Reader's Digest say "baloney".

[Jersey Devil]

30. OK, then what about this?

BTW, I'm not your "pal"

[salguine]

33. Well, I guess you refuted my argument point-by-point with sound logic and facts...

...pal.

[NJmaverick]

5. telling

"This health care "reform" actually leaves me worse off than if they had simply done nothing. "

Ever think about the 30 million with out insurance it will help?

[izquierdista]

7. Insurance will help?

Perhaps you are the one that is not paying attention. Go see Micheal Moore's 'Sicko' if you haven't already. That was a movie about people who DID have insurance. What's in this bill that makes sure that insurance actually translates into treatment and care? Nothing.

[NJmaverick]

9. I tend to form my opinions by reading factual articles and looking up more facts

reading a few opinions of people I respect, doing some critical thinking and then forming my own opinion. I don't get my opinions from watching movies.

[izquierdista]

22. By all means read then

Read, read, and read some more. And really work hard on that critical thinking thing. You have so far to go, it's a good thing you don't take time for movies.

[NJmaverick]

3. From what I have seen there was permanant scars from the bitter primary battle

every time there is a bump in the road we feel the pain from those scars. As you said too many invested too much of their ego into the issues. Being painted into that corner many are becoming angrier every day and looking for anyway out.

[Clio the Leo]

6. I agree. NT

[freddie mertz]

8. I will not unite behind a man who lied to me.

And neither should any of us.

[NJmaverick]

10. Looking at the FACTS, I wonder who is the one being honest

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

know the facts, they matter!

[freddie mertz]

11. "If you like your present coverage, you can keep it." LIE.

Tax on HC benefits, which candidate Obama opposed, now in Senate bill with his blessing. As L. O'Donnell pointed out today, this will cause change or loss of coverage for many.

"Any bill I sign must contain a robust public option." LIE.

Campaign opposition to mandates? Dropped.

Any questions?

[NJmaverick]

12. It's odd

I don't see how your first claim is true.

I googled your quote with no success

He did change his position on mandates, but that hardly meets the standard for a lie.

In fact until the bill is final known of your charges could be considered true. Then that really doesn't matter if you have an agenda of destruction.

[freddie mertz]

13. Lawrence O'Donnell laid it out on Morning Joe with Claire McCaskill.

The tax on "cadillac" benefits, which Obama campaigned against but was part of McCain's proposal, was added to the bill with Obama's blessing.

This will tax HCR benefits above 23-24,000 dollars.

In urban/high cost areas (like NYC, Mass, CA, etc), this will likely end up forcing employers to reduce coverage and/or raise deductibles, in some cases, very much so.

This is now in the senate bill and h=is getting 60 votes, all of it in direct defiance of Obama's promises.

[NJmaverick]

14. Here is a fact based comprehensive list of all President Obama's promises

on health care

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/subjects/health-care/


Looking at this, I have to say you have badly mischaracterized his position and promises.

[freddie mertz]

15. Stop posting that. We are discussing this particular case.

If you can't address the three promises I am talking about, then just admit it and concede the point.

On edit: HERE is the thread on the discussion today:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7296046

[NJmaverick]

16. You can make a broad brushed statement like "the man lied to me"

and then focus on some narrow issue. That simply isn't the proper way to do things.

[freddie mertz]

19. Three lies/promises broken is not insignificant.

Here again is the thread on O'Donnell and the insurance tax flip-flop.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7296046

[NJmaverick]

26. You keep trying to counter fact with opinion

that doesn't work for me.

[Armstead]

17. It does meet the standard for a lie -- If one voted for him because of mandaes

If one took him at his word last year when he said he does not believe in mandates and tghe the FIRST STEP shoud be to make sure that AFFORDABLE health coverave is avaiklable to everyone == and he opposed mandates in his ads -- then I would qualify that as a lie.

And if that was one of the reasons someone voted for him, then it is worse than a lie.

[NJmaverick]

18. only in the sense that one would accuse a parent of lying about Santa

it's a given that a politician is forced to make many promises and that there is no way they can keep them all. It's a matter of looking at the overall picture of promises kept to those that were broken. In terms of healthcare President Obama looks to be on tract to do an excellent job.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/subjects/health-care/

[freddie mertz]

20. Healthcare is not Santa. Mandates are not a guy in a red suit and fake beard.

Benefits taxes (HUGE benefits taxes) are not the tooth fairy.

And the public option is not my little pony.

Time for you to take the conversation seriously or just give it up.

Cause this is not some fucking joke. Real people and real policies are involved here.

[Jersey Devil]

21. on the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me

a fucking headache!

It looks to me as though the Truth Fairy has turned you into Scrooge.

[freddie mertz]

23. I have to stop watching the political TV, that is for sure.

Time enough to get to work to defeat the Senate, Congressional, and White House DINOS.

For now, it's "Miracle on 34th Street" (the REAL version, of course, with Natalie Wood).

[NJmaverick]

27. Have you ever been to Free Republic (horrible place but great insight to the right wing mindset)

I have and I used to laugh at them when they would label Republicans as "RINOs". I thought that was terribly silly and self destructive (which seems to have proven to be the case).

[freddie mertz]

28. Just through links from other sites.

They are insane and I find the layout of their site hard to look at (no aesthetics in the far right, apparently).

The GOP has become a party of nutjobs in large part thanks to their efforts (and to Faux News).

So, what Xmas movies do you like?

I prefer the Alastair Sim "Christmas Carol" and "Holiday Inn", "Abraham" number and all.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. That's insulting.

Changing his position on the mandate so quickly was a slap in the face to people who supported him because of his opposition to them.

[uponit7771]

25. Link and quote "with his blessings" ....TIA

[uponit7771]

24. Obama said if something was better than the PubOption he'd do it...

[Aramchek]

31. they've wasted months on end trashing this Bill.

they can't accept that they have been absolute failures in that regard.

they have wasted part of their lives doing the wrong thing.