Where I grew up, if a person told a lie, he/she was considered a liar.

[rateyes]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7300576



Obama owes us an apology.

[BeFree]

1. No!!

A politician who told a LIE?

First time that happened? Uhm, no.

All of them owe an apology. Don't hold your breath.

[ProSense]

2. The public option was not discussed much during the campaign

The public option was not discussed much during the campaign

Politico pointed out, correctly, that Lieberman was wrong about the public option being added after the election. It was part of Obama's plans released publicly during the campaign.

<...>

The Obama campaign mentioned the public option briefly in its health position paper and on its Web site. A typical description went like this:

"The Obama-Biden plan will create a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals purchase new affordable health care options if they are uninsured or want new health insurance. Through the Exchange, any American will have the opportunity to enroll in the new public plan or an approved private plan, and income-based sliding scale tax credits will be provided for people and families who need it. ... The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least as generous as the new public plan and meet the same standards for quality and efficiency."

But there was little discussion about the public option. The debate in both the primary and the general election focused on the mandate, costs and covering the uninsured. We found the public option mentioned in only 70 articles or transcripts during the entire campaign and months prior to the inauguration.

It wasn't until after Obama took office that there was sustained attention to the issue. There were 50 items published between January and May and then coverage exploded this past summer. Major newspapers produced about 650 significant stories or op-eds on Obama and the public option in June, July and August.

[Bluenorthwest]

3. He mentioned it constantly. But not as often as he said he

opposed adult mandates, or as often as he said Clinton was wrong and bad for supporting mandated purchase. He said he would not sign a bill without a public option. "Any bill I sign must..."
But you are correct. Same where I grew up.

[rateyes]

4. What did he have to say about mandates? nt

[ProSense]

8. Mandates

here

[EFerrari]

He was against them until he was for them.

Obama flip flops on health care mandates

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18101

[ProSense]

20. He changed is mind. "capitolhillblue.com"?

I know that's a foreign concept for the "stay the course" types, much like the RW.

[EFerrari]

23. And yet you don't dispute my point.

lol

I know that's a foreign concept for compulsive types. :)

[Oregone]

24. Is "changed is mind" a euphemism for "say one thing, do another"?

Clearly, its only lying when a Republican does it. I understand now

[ProSense]

28. No it's what intelligent people do when something isn't working, as

opposed to doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome (see Bush's stay the course policy for Iraq).

[Oregone]

32. Got it. So basically, you always have an excuse and justification

Obama is the epitome of perfect

[ipaint]

35. No lying to get what you want is what 3 year olds do. See links.

Just a few of the many dating pre-election-


Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html


In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign’s website, candidate Obama promised that “any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan.”

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf


Every American has the right to affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage. My plan will ensure that all Americans have health care coverage through their employers, private health plans, the federal government, or the states. My plan builds on and improves our current insurance system, which most Americans continue to rely upon, and creates a new public health plan for those currently without coverage. Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them. My plan includes a mandate that all children have health care coverage and I will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs to help ensure we cover all kids. My plan requires all employers to contribute towards health coverage for their employees or towards the cost of the public plan. Under my plan a typical family will save $2,500 each year. We will realize tremendous savings within the health care system from improving efficiency and quality and reducing wasted expenditures system-wide. Specifically, these savings will result from investments in health information technology, improvements in prevention and management of chronic conditions, increased insurance industry competition and reduced industry overhead, the provision of federal reinsurance for catastrophic coverage, and reduced spending on uncompensated care.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/issues/candidates/barack-obama/


I guess lying for the liar is also justifiable?

[ima_sinnic]

45. no, it's what fucking LIARS do

spin all you want, spin until you turn into a pool of melted butter and disappear.

[ProSense]

49. No only fucking idiots drive a car into a brick wall expecting not to crash. n/t

[ima_sinnic]

51. and that really makes sense, yeah, I see your point

:wtf:

did you hit the wrong macro key? the wrong preprogrammed talking point perhaps?

or are you saying, only an idiot doesn't use caution when dealing with a liar?

[ProSense]

54. Your outrage is boringly predictable. Let me repeat

Only stupid fucking people refuse to change course or adapt when things are going wrong.

[ipaint]

56. So lying is now adapting. Interesting.

Does that mean bush was adapting to events when he lied us into iraq?

[ima_sinnic]

68. maybe it means We The People are supposed to adapt

I mean, things ARE going horribly wrong, and we should've known they would and just accepted that by "being flexible" and "adapting."

in other words, never have high expectations of a professional politician.

[dflprincess]

89. Pity he didn't change his mind on escalating in Afghanistan

especially after the first escalation of 17,000 didn't work.

[burning rain]

64. What a sleazy tactic.

Likening lefties who want to hold the president accountable for abandoning leftish campaign positions, to a particularly irrattional, mendacious, and warmongering group of right-wingers. But it does have the merit of displaying your principles at their best, ProSense.

[ima_sinnic]

66. it seems to be floundering in a sea of desperation

and I don't see any lifesavers handy

(walking away "regretfully")

[quakerboy]

87. Way to dodge

I (and I would guess most here arguing against them, as well as Obama during the campaign) am not worried about whether a mandate is unconstitutional or not. The only reason for a mandate is to ensure that a public option will work. If the subsidies and regulations are going to be so effective in enabling people to afford insurance that they cannot afford now, then there is absolutely no need for a mandate. Or at least there is not if the goal is getting people covered.

[EFerrari]

10. Maybe you heard some alternate prosense campaign.

[brentspeak]

12. Obama: "Any plan I sign MUST INCLUDE...a public option"

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/obama-demands-the-bill-i-sign-must-include-public-option.php

More video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5v45VDcUM

[avaistheone1]

31. ^5

[Igel]

53. More of a speech act than a statement of intent.

An oblique way of making a threat.

Threats can be absolute. Threats can be rhetorical.

Which Obama meant is entirely up to Obama--or God, if you believe there is one--to decide. Otherwise we're all in the position of sitting around pronouncing upon the true intent of one another's words. Granted, some of us do that. I can only wonder how they manage to get the toothbrush up their butts to brush their teeth before bedtime, however; I prefer not to imagine it.

Decontextualizing words and taking them entirely at face value to arrive at the conclusion that the other person said what we meant him to, entirely apart from any attempt to construe the likely intended meaning using their range of meanings and rules of conversational implicature, is the logical equivalent of a tantrum.

And, no, speech acts have pretty much defied logical analysis, and aren't amenable to simple logic in any event; their underpinnings aren't really in formal logic but in how humans understand each other--or willfully refuse to understand each other. It's something that repubs traditionally do with dems and dems traditionally do with repubs--it solidifies tribal boundaries, justifies each in their own opinion, makes each feel superior while trying to show that there are good reasons that the other person's a moral cur. I disapprove when repubs do it to dems and when dems do it to repub--it cheapens and coarsens the political discourse and makes actual conversation all but impossible in the ranting. I can't help but disapprove when dems to it to dems.

[MadBadger]

78. Arent we talking about the campaign?

[Oregone]

21. Ouch (referring to the other replies)

You just got a reality enema

[avaistheone1]

30. Obama mentioned the Afghanistan escalation briefly during his campaign and

look what a mess we are getting stuck with.

Interesting how he chooses what issues to work on.

[glitch]

46. escalated not once but twice, complete with mercenaries in Pakistan.

IOW not only refused to initiate prosecution of prior war crimes but committed his own.

And accepted a Nobel Peace Prize while doing it.

It would take a Pro to Spin this away.

[ima_sinnic]

69. yeah, somehow we're supposed to be glad he kept THAT "promise"

selective promise-keeping, it's what's in your shit sandwich.

[freddie mertz]

81. You, ProSense, insisted in endless posts this summer that there WOULD be a PO.

And you linked to Obama's PROMISES to support your claim.

Don't you feel a little bit USED after all this?

[Jamastiene]

85. Here is what Obama campaigned on:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=11560&mesg_id=11910

[Better Today]

5. So the people where you grew up never claimed to their children that

Santa was real, or the Easter Bunny, or the Toothfairy? Really??? Or are you saying that those that did were duly shunned for life due to this lying?

What about divorce, it makes ones marriage vows a lie, are they all shunned? Driven from your faux-utopia of only truthtellers.

What about any man or friend who lied when they said, "No, really you look great, not fat at all in those...", I'm guessing they've all been burned at the stake.

Naive OP.

[rateyes]

9. Wow.

Way to take stuff out of context. I applaud you. :applause:

[Better Today]

13. Thank you, thank you. My response is appropriate to your OP, not respective of your link

If the OP was only to link to another OP and that was the meat of you intended to serve as your own, then I say you fail on a whole different level.

[rateyes]

17. Your response was hyperbole.

And, good hyperbole at that! :applause:


I stand by my OP.

[griffi94]

14. are you seriously trying to compare

people telling their kids about santa or the easter bunny to obama lying or at the very least deliberatly misleading potential voters about his positions.

[Better Today]

15. No, just snarking one liners posted as OPs instead of simply responding in the OP that was linked.

[FiveGoodMen]

47. Good riddance to you...

[ima_sinnic]

52. wow--you always take things so literally and totally irrelevantly?

I think you might find DeepThinkerPseudoPhilosopher.com more to your liking.

:eyes:

[quakerboy]

90. So Obama s promises are like tales of the easter bunny or the toothfairy?

You really don't think much of the man, do you?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rateyes]

11. Yep.

[EFerrari]

7. Yes, he lied.

[girl_interrupted]

16. K&R

[golddigger]

18. The apologist can spin it all they want

but, he lied.

[emilyg]

27. Yes he did.

[Avalux]

19. Obama DID NOT campaign on "a" public option. He didn't campaign on universal coverage.

I understand people are disappointed but I think a lot of people put so much of their own wants on Obama's shoulders, they aren't remembering the facts clearly.

It's just wrong to say he lied.

[phleshdef]

25. Whatever he said, he isn't stupid. I need to see the context. The way people are framing it, its not

...something that he could even bother to lie about. People can think what they want about Obama, but he is definately smarter than that.

[golddigger]

26. See post #12 nt

[quakerboy]

91. He did campaign against a mandate

And now he says he will pass it through without so much as a peep. It is wrong to say he told the truth.

[depakid]

22. That was in the "old days"

when integrity and credibility still mattered in much of America.

[boppers]

29. Where I grew up, selective quoting is lying. eom

[griffi94]

34. what exactly

is selective quoting. he either said it or he didn't. i didn't see where the quote was taken out of context.

[boppers]

38. Reading comprehension is essential.

He advocated for a public option but was not campaigning to make a bill contingent on a public option.

[griffi94]

39. i just read his quote again

if he isn't outright lying at the very least his statements are misleading.
he didn't just advocate a public plan, he said he would provide one.
this was after he was president, but it's still misleading, given what he said and what we're now getting.

"Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them."

[boppers]

58. "a new public insurance program" is not "a new public option insurance program"

Both the House, and Senate Bills, provide a new public insurance program.

The House version has a public option as part of the the new public insurance program, the Senate version does not.

[phleshdef]

40. I figure he probably meant he didn't promise it. OF COURSE he used the idea during the campaign.

[Jamastiene]

74. He said that any plan he signed must include an insurance exchange INCLUDING a public option.

"Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

He said that any plan he signed must include an insurance exchange, then went on to define what an insurance exchange is. Part of that definition states, "INCLUDING a public option."

If the very definition of insurance exchange includes a public option, AND he said any plan he signed MUST INCLUDE the insurance exchange, then he DID campaign on the public option.

[boppers]

82. Okay, that looks like a resounding requirement ("must")

Good find.

[Jamastiene]

72. Even looking at the entire quote, he's still saying it must include a public option.

"ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/obama-demands-the-bill-i-sign-must-include-public-option.php

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/22/818186/-UPDATED:-Candidate-Obama-DID-Campaign-On-The-Public-Option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5v45VDcUM

[Raine]

33. Now they're just called POLITICIANS. nt

[Phx_Dem]

36. Are you Joe Wilson? If you're refering to the public option, read and learn

Obama never advocated for a public option above all else. It was one idea which he supported, among others. And this comes from Huffington Post, the Obama-hating progressive blog.

It does, indeed, seem fair to say that a public option for insurance coverage was a component of the Obama health care agenda. But exactly how serious a component was it?

An examination of approximately 200 newspaper articles from the campaign, as well as debate transcripts and public speeches shows that Obama spoke remarkably infrequently about creating a government-run insurance program. Indeed, when he initially outlined his health care proposals during a speech before the University of Iowa on March 29, 2007, he described setting up a system that resembles the current Senate compromise - in which private insurers would operate in a non-profit entity that was regulated heavily by a government entity.

There are countless other examples as well; but remarkably few other times in which Obama himself was quoted supporting an additional program of government run insurance. His campaign never pushed back on the report. If anything, it seems they clearly constructed a health care strategy that embraced the public option as one of several principles of reform.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/22/did-obama-campaign-on-the_n_401204.html

YOU LIE! (in keeping with your Joe Wilson exmaple)

[ipaint]

37. Above all else?

Where did that come from. Sneaking in words?

Too bad huffington post didn't check with the washington post, the obama biden campaign website or the democratic party platform 2008.

See post 35 for links.

[Pisces]

41. The lie is in your crazy head. clean out your ears and you tube Obama. Obviously the grown

ups have to make decisions because you spoiled rotten children can't conceive of how policy is made.

[ipaint]

42. Oops two more.

NPR interview 2007-

Obama: Senator Clinton’s plan for healthcare, my plan, John Edward’s plan are all similar in the sense that we set up a government plan alongside the private plans that people have. And people can buy in. And we all subsidize participation in that plan.

Laura Knoy: So it’s not universal, single payer healthcare such as Dennis Kucinich<'s plan>?

Obama: Exactly. It’s not single payer, it’s a transitional system building on the existing systems that we have.

cont.-

Require all children to have health insurance, and employers to offer employee health benefits or contribute to the cost of the new public program. Expand Medicaid and SCHIP and create the National Health Insurance Exchange through which small businesses and individuals without access to other public programs or employer-based coverage could enroll in a new public plan, like Medicare, or in a range of approved private plans.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=8554



Any names for me?? Unbalanced, irrational maybe. Am I a crazy head too? :rofl:

[Meshuga]

43. I'm usually pretty critical of President Obama

But I don't think he lied, therefore, I don't think he owes us an apology.

[bajamary]

44. Obama sure did campaign for a public option

In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign’s website, candidate Obama promised that "any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan."

– During a speech at the American Medical Association, President Obama told thousands of doctors that one of the plans included in the new health insurance exchanges "needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market."

– While speaking to the nation during his weekly address, the President said that "any plan" he signs "must include...a public option."

– During a conference call with progressive bloggers, the President said he continues "to believe that a robust public option would be the best way to go."

– Obama told NBC’s David Gregory that a public option "should be a part of this ," while rebuking claims that the plan was "dead."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818090/-Presid... .-

[NYCGirl]

48. Only one of those times listed above was during the campaign. NT

[Donnachaidh]

50. so that gives him a pass on LYING?

Wow -- did Rove start a finishing school for Democrats? Because the weaseling is downright profound :rofl:

[ipaint]

55. Not in post 35, I'll repost here-

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html


In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign’s website, candidate Obama promised that “any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan.”

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf


Every American has the right to affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage. My plan will ensure that all Americans have health care coverage through their employers, private health plans, the federal government, or the states. My plan builds on and improves our current insurance system, which most Americans continue to rely upon, and creates a new public health plan for those currently without coverage. Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them. My plan includes a mandate that all children have health care coverage and I will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs to help ensure we cover all kids. My plan requires all employers to contribute towards health coverage for their employees or towards the cost of the public plan. Under my plan a typical family will save $2,500 each year. We will realize tremendous savings within the health care system from improving efficiency and quality and reducing wasted expenditures system-wide. Specifically, these savings will result from investments in health information technology, improvements in prevention and management of chronic conditions, increased insurance industry competition and reduced industry overhead, the provision of federal reinsurance for catastrophic coverage, and reduced spending on uncompensated care.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/issues/candidates/barack-obama/

NPR interview 2007-

Obama: Senator Clinton’s plan for healthcare, my plan, John Edward’s plan are all similar in the sense that we set up a government plan alongside the private plans that people have. And people can buy in. And we all subsidize participation in that plan.

Laura Knoy: So it’s not universal, single payer healthcare such as Dennis Kucinich<'s plan>?

Obama: Exactly. It’s not single payer, it’s a transitional system building on the existing systems that we have.

cont.-

Require all children to have health insurance, and employers to offer employee health benefits or contribute to the cost of the new public program. Expand Medicaid and SCHIP and create the National Health Insurance Exchange through which small businesses and individuals without access to other public programs or employer-based coverage could enroll in a new public plan, like Medicare, or in a range of approved private plans.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=8554

Many more from the campaign here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818090/-President-Obama:-I-Didnt-Campaign-on-the-Public-Option

[phleshdef]

59. All those examples are during his Presidency, not during the campaign.

Save for the website reference.

[ipaint]

60. Mine in post 55 are from the campaign.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ipaint]

61. Not even the truth apparently.

But honestly "ratface"? How old are you?

[asdjrocky]

62. Where I grew up, if a person told a lie-

we considered them normal.

[Vidar]

63. K&R.

[slipslidingaway]

65. knr - check the DK link for updates as well ...

President Obama: "I Didn't Campaign on the Public Option."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818090/-President-Obama:-I-Didnt-Campaign-on-the-Public-Option

[ima_sinnic]

70. very helpful, thanks--needs to go viral

the excellent question asked there is, why does he now have to claim no ownership of a PO?
Why can't he simply say, well I wanted it but this was the best we could do? IMO, he could even add, in his false empty way, that "we" will work to get one eventually. is the "hope meister" not even going to TRY anymore to exploit people's dreams?

And why does it matter? Why could he not just say that he preferred a public option, but the bill is still good without it? That was his position after he was elected President, once the campaign was over. Why would he revise history?

[slipslidingaway]

76. Great question and glad people are posting other examples ...

Obama has just said Happy Holidays to everyone who may have believed him.

:(

[KrR]

67. Depends on whether having a PO in your written

plan constitues 'campaigning'.

All of the quotes of his supporting the PO are after the election....

[closeupready]

77. And also depends on what the definition of 'is' is.

Or so I've heard from those with CV's very like Barack Obama's.

[ipaint]

79. Post 55 are ALL from the campaign. n/t

[uponit7771]

71. Obama's base doesn't blame him for the short comings of a few senators

[CBGLuthier]

73. When I grew up

calling a politician a liar was considered fucking redundant. It is inherent in the job description.

[rateyes]

75. Well, there is that. nt

[freddie mertz]

80. And if he can't do the job, maybe he should resign.

And give Joe a chance.

Honestly, this is getting beyond 'hope."

[brentspeak]

83. Agreed

I've been thinking the same thing. At least give someone else a chance. And Biden seems to have some fire in his belly.

[Dappleganger]

88. That's just beyond stupid.

[treestar]

84. It is usually children who simplify to the point where anything

they don't agree with is a "lie." Or any mistake is a "lie." Or a different opinion is a "lie."

[varelse]

86. Heh

Nearly everyone I know is a liar, by that standard. I'm sure I lied at least once to my parents when I was growing up. I'm a liar too, then.

I'd like to see people stick with the fact of the lie, without labeling the person based on one act. If it is a repeated act, then we have a habit... and a problem. Just my two cents.

[Garam_Masala]

92. Watch this video on MSNBC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-6jEOVG-IE

[LittleBlue]

93. He bashed the crap out of Clinton for this

and I was right behind him, bashing her too. Why? Because it's a stupid idea, then and now.

[Hippo_Tron]

94. So does pretty much every other elected official then

Unfortunately getting an apology from each and every one of them isn't really practical. While I'd love to have politicians who don't lie, I'm a realist. I'll settle for a President who lies about what he campaigned on especially when my alternative is a President who lies about the existence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in order to invade a country.

[BklnDem75]

95. Did Obama campaign on a public option?

Was his health care plan the public option or was it something else that included a public health plan as one of it's goals? You do know the word campaign also means advertise, right? Was he trying to sell a product or one of it's features? Answer honestly, please.