Hamsher's racism vs. Andrew Sullivan's misdeeds

[Prism]

Since we're in the discrediting bloggers business this week. Hey, it's only trillions of dollars to private corporations. Destroying a blogger is the truly important thing here. I do not condone Hamsher's use of blackface. It is a deeply offensive, indefensible act. However, I would note her crime cannot begin to compare to the lurid history of Andrew Sullivan, a man now venerated on this site.

For those who cannot help but approve of Andrew Sullivan and repeatedly post his tripe on DU, but are currently hyperventilating over Hamsher's error, some history, in case you weren't aware:

- Sullivan supported publishing excerpts of the Bell Curve as editor of the New Republic. It is http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1271">a deeply racist work smothered in pseudo-science. Rather than advance or evolve beyond these views, Sullivan has remained steadfast in his belief over the years that there are genetic racial components to intelligence. As recently as two years ago, he was http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/11/race-and-iq-1.html">hawking this racial snake oil on his blog.

- Sullivan spent the majority of his career http://www.salon.com/books/feature/1998/11/cov_30featurea.html">denigrating the LGBT community. He consistently criticized the "libidinal pathologies" of gay men while presenting himself as morally upright, conservative, Catholic, special, different from those "bad gays". He profited handsomely from MSM work as the one acceptable gay in public discourse.

In the end, however, Sullivan's http://www.villagevoice.com/2001-06-19/news/the-real-andrew-sullivan-scandal/1">own libidinal pathologies were far greater than anything he assigned to the community at large. While we struggled for our place in society and equality, Sullivan scrambled onto television and into newspapers to tear down the community in his own image. To this day, it remains one of the greatest disgraces in the community.

- Sullivan is http://www.femisex.com/content/asked-and-answered-the-atlantic-asks-should-women-rule-world-the-atlantic-gives-90-its-bylin">a proud misogynist. During last year's campaign, he polished bizarre, fixated sexism to an ever glossier shine. He has long complained about women being "too in charge" of the LGBT community. The complaint surfaces again and again in his thoughts.

- Finally, there was no greater cheerleader for the war in Iraq than Andrew Sullivan. After 9/11, he referred to liberals and the Left as a traitorous fifth column, while positioning himself as some kind of http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2001/10/20/sullivan/index.html">journalistic McCarthyite.

- Frankly, it is an insult to see Sullivan lavishly praised here after all he has done. Sure, he says nice things about the President, but the damage he has caused is far beyond the power of his blog to repair by simply being somewhat nicer to Democrats than he has been in the past. He is, at heart, a coward who always attempts to be on the winning side. He is untrustworthy and as vile as any right-winger out there. His history speaks for itself.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Sullivan and the racist Hamster both suck. n/t

[vaberella]

47. Hah...Hamster. n/t

[camera obscura]

63. Here here!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prism]

3. Which do you imagine is worse . . .

1) Posting a blackface photoshop on your blog, which is unwise at best and racist at worst.

or

2) Using your position as editor of the New Republic to widely disseminate and support a pseudo-scientific work that claims blacks are racially inferior when it comes to intelligence?

I can hate what Hamsher did, but still recognize Sullivan's crimes as far, far worse.

[Cha]

5. So? At least Andrew Sullivan isn't advocating

"MARCHING WITH THE TEABAGGERS".

[Prism]

7. Sullivan has done far worse

And if you'd bother reading the many quite ample links I included in the OP, you'd know the horror that lurks in attaching oneself to Andrew Sullivan.

Hamsher, on the other hand, is actually originating from a liberal place. She wants better reform for working Americans. Even if I don't agree with her methods, I appreciate where she's coming from.

Sullivan, well, he's all for Sullivan.

[burning rain]

29. If you take the post you're replying to...

as an opportunistic attack on the Hamster for opposing the Senate health care bill while letting slide Sullivan's far more offensive racial offenses because he's not an political opponent on this issue, it all makes sense and is a maximally economical explanation--something that Occam's Razor counsels. It certainly appears that your argument here is with posts uninformed by sturdy and honorable principles.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

64. Jane could be the Queen of the Teabaggers

and it would never be as bad as the racialist tripe that Sullivan has been pushing. The Bell Curve is disgusting shit.

[girl_interrupted]

18. Sullivan just notes Blacks are intellectually inferior

And you are worried about a photo meant to show Lieberman trying to kiss up to blacks for their votes? Jane apologized. Her insults was directed toward Lieberman. Her Candidate Lamont Lost. Sullivan? His comments were directed toward blacks. Why don't you go ask Sullivan to apologize for saying blacks are intellectually inferior?

[jgraz]

23. Don't waste your time. They don't care about real race issues.

It's all about attacking anyone who criticizes Dear Leader.

[dave29]

41. hey if we can end the pony and cheerleader memes how about stopping the dear leader

bullshit... maybe without the mods having to intervene even?

edit to add: it cracks me up in a thread about racism you would make a point by describing our President in the same vein as a psychopathic dictator that is knowingly starving his country.

[jgraz]

42. Ask me again tomorrow.

Right now, I'm too appalled at the racebaiting that's being used to attack Obama's critics. It's sickening.

[dave29]

43. I'll ask you again right now, because you've been doing it for months

and it's been sickening me the whole time.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dave29]

46. ok, it was just a request. Go right ahead.

Your the one arguing about the sickening displays on DU. This is one I *also* find offensive.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prism]

25. Well said n/t

[Cha]

32. I'm not worried about anything...

I saw her non apology for her stupid "Blackface" and I don't care who it was.

More stupid than that is advocating "Marching With The Teabaggers" who are a bunch of fucking racists themselves.

[jgraz]

20. Wow, somebody found a nice, new chewtoy.

:eyes:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

68. Now you have resorted to race baiting

totally disgusting.

[jonnyblitz]

4. thanks for this.!! k & r

:hi:

[Prism]

6. You know what it's like

Seeing Sullivan declared as some kind of Democratic hero.

Hashish monkey on a pogo stick. It's so ridiculous.

[jonnyblitz]

9. this thread is the one i would liked to have started if i wasn't

so distracted tonight. I mentioned this briefly in a few other threads with the expected responses from the usual suspects. :crazy:

[last1standing]

8. Wait a second....

If we have a viewpoint similar to something that Jane Hamsher believes, and Jane Hamsher is a racist, we must be racist. Sooo......

If Obama has the same viewpoint on something as Andrew Sullivan, and Andrew Sullivan is a racist, that means.....

OH.MY.GOD!

:think:


K&R, by the way.

[girl_interrupted]

13. Prism thank you for this! More on Sullivan

The Real Andrew Sullivan Scandal http://www.villagevoice.com/2001-06-19/news/the-real-andrew-sullivan-scandal/1

His positions haven't changed, he has never apologized.

People should read what he said about Blacks, Liberals, Gays, Women and hate crime legislation.

[Prism]

15. It's shocking

Simply saying some nice things about the President suddenly erases twenty years of right-wing journalistic horror committed by this man?

Wha?

I cannot abide seeing him praised as some kind of wise, all-knowing pundit. Not when he has done as much damage as he has. It is singular and repugnant.

[girl_interrupted]

28. It is! Especially when "no one" is offended by Sullivan

You see anyone call him out on this board? And yet he doesn't mince words when it came to attacking blacks. Jane's attack was meant for Lieberman. Not so Sullivan.

Yet....Sullivan who never apologizes, gets a free pass. Go figure. How phoney.

[kayla9170]

10. There is no Either/Or......Both Are Wrong

Both have issues, Both have used Racist Images, Tones or Words to defend their respective positions. The Hamster took it to a new level. That is why she is being called out and attacked. Neither one of these people speak for me or many in my community.

[Prism]

14. They are not equal

Since we're now participating in Destroy Hamsher week on DU, I thought it would be apt to compare Hamsher's incident of ignorance from a few years ago to Sullivan's entire career of racism, sexism, and - yep - homophobia.

The two do not compare in the slightest.

And yet, Hamsher must be brought low while Sullivan is celebrated around these parts repeatedly.

Power and loyalty have distorted our moral lens something fierce, I'm afraid.

[vaberella]

49. Because a person doesn't make a mistake as often as another...

doesn't mean the person doesn't believe the same things. So yeah...they are both equal. They are both racists and that's the end.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

11. K&R

[Starry Messenger]

12. Thank you Prism.

Blackface is dreadful and insensitive. I don't even agree with Hamsher's proposal about the teabaggers and feel that people have been unfairly lumped in to this camp without being given a chance to be more than reactive. I sincerely doubt that Hamsher would utter something like this below.

Sullivan is a neocon and said this about The Bell Curve:

"The notion that there might be resilient ethnic differences in intelligence is not, we believe, an inherently racist belief."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1271

I hope to see more voices speaking out against Sullivan in the very near future.

[jonnyblitz]

17. i don't pay much attention to these celebrity bloggers like her

or KOS. i just know about them from what i read here. I got accused of being a Jane Hampsher fan just for bringing up andrew sullivan in another thread. you know how that goes with "them".

[Starry Messenger]

21. That's what happens when there is any criticism of this adminstration.

Despite one "celebrity mod" opinion, I find much of the vitriol and strawmen on DU come from the hard core enthusiasts. The distortion of reality is a master work of fiction. So much for the pragmatic "fact-based" label.

[jonnyblitz]

31. they have nothing so they SCREEEEEEEEEECH

like Miss Thing up thread with the tourettes.

[Starry Messenger]

34. lol

I have her on ignore, but I'm always going to think about rabid parrots now every time I see her ignored ass derail a thread. :D

[jonnyblitz]

37. so you knew who i was talking about?

:rofl: she's too entertaining for me to put on ignore.

[Starry Messenger]

39. Caw caw!

I have to admit I peeked with printer friendly format. Some people I have to put on ignore because I'm afraid my restraint will fail me and I will get a bad case of granite in a reply to one of them.

[QC]

53. It's really kind of sad.

But really funny, too.

[Spazito]

16. Both activities by BOTH bloggers are contemptible, imo

Were DUers defending Sullivan when he published his hateful material? If so, that is appalling. Publishing hateful, racist, homophobic material OR having used a Blackface photoshop AND currently aligning oneself with such contemptible people as Schlafly, Norquist and teabaggers is equally appalling, imo.

Are you supportive of the aligning with Schlafly, Norquist and the teabaggers? I don't need to ask the same question regarding the actions of Sullivan as you have already made your point quite well.

[Prism]

22. I am not supportive Hamsher's choice at this time

But I am sympathetic to and supportive of her reasons.

While I do believe there is http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7236293">a populist vacuum forming, I do not yet count myself a part of it, and I would not join any such movement as long as people like Norquist and Schlafly were leaders of it.

I think Hamsher is one of the first raindrops in the coming populist storm. Where that will take us, we'll just have to see.

[Spazito]

30. I appreciate your response...

it is encouraging.

[xchrom]

19. Recommend

[eridani]

24. The basic issue here is actual policies

Both Hamsher and Sullivan have been good on some issues and bad on others. We could try focusing on the actual ISSUES>

[ruggerson]

26. I don't think many in the particular crowd you're trying to reach

cares much about Andy's internalized homophobia. It probably makes him more appealing.

[Major Hogwash]

36. But, he does reach some of us and that helps us out a great deal

to sort out the truth and we need to know the truth more than ever now because it was easy to discount Bush when he was in the White House.

[jonnyblitz]

38. i don't think that particular crowd reads much of the info in

the threads they terrorize. you can often tell by how they respond.

[ProgressIn2008]

54. You may be on to something - the homophobia may well be a perk. nt

[jgraz]

27. All that's required is that you support Obama.

Once you do that, all else is forgiven. It's kinda like that C-Street group...

[autorank]

33. Outstanding k*r

Sullivan's record speaks for itself.

In the last 5-6 days, I've noticed an extra ration of venom out here for anyone calling the health bill what it is, a corporate bailout and welfare program. And that article in KOS, what a hit piece.

The personalities don't matter. The fact do. They've been aired and now there will be a period where the final bill is produced. That's when the retrospective viewing of this sausage making effort gets the full exposure.

Who is next for the big mean machine of personal attacks?

[Major Hogwash]

35. I think Sullivan is a hack, pure and simple. But, Hamsher uses a lot of facts, so I like her

She might just be right about the huge split in the progrssive party next year, too.

Lieberman wanted to put a crowbar in the crack in the Democratic party and split us into more than just 2 pieces, and he is still using his leverage as a wanker to do that.

[EFerrari]

40. I still can't believe Jane did that but you're right about Sullivan.

The waters of his soul won't get your feet wet.

/typo

[jonnyblitz]

44. yup, there is no excuse for the blackface. nt

[vaberella]

48. What did Hamsher do?! Sullivan?! I'm not surprised---he's whatever. n/t

[Jamastiene]

51. K&R

Thank you, Prism. Well said. :thumbsup:

[QC]

52. And another!

[Starry Messenger]

55. Kicking for all the Sullivan fans.

Boy, sure is quiet today!

[HuckleB]

56. Most of the issues with Sullivan appear to be fairly old.

It does seem like he has changed his tune on many of those issues? And I think he had changed his tune on Iraq long before we attacked, no?

[Prism]

57. No

Sullivan eventually turned on the Iraq war and Bush, but really only after others were starting to move towards the exits (rats, sinking ship, etc). He was, in fact, one of the biggest cheerleaders leading into Iraq. Furthermore, many of the things noted above, the misogyny and support of racial components to intelligence, are problems he continues to have.

He has never ever eschewed the core right-wing beliefs that led to his appalling behavior. He's simply papered over it to support the President. If you read his blog regularly, all the problems noted in the OP are more in evidence than ever.

[fishwax]

58. I'm no fan of Sullivan's at all, but that doesn't excuse what Hamsher has done

[Prism]

59. No one said it did n/t

[Phx_Dem]

60. Blackfface? Jane Hamsher is disgusting.

But it's good that she's finally shown us her true self. Pig.

[jonnyblitz]

62. but Andrew Sullivan is a-ok.

selective outrage. :crazy:

[Ikonoklast]

61. Never cared for either one.

Self-important people whose opinion sways me not.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

65. There is a particular DUer who on many occasions

has used Sullivan's blog to prop up her pro-Obama/anti-liberal horseshit. I hope she reads this.

[Pisces]

70. Don't know if you are referring to me or not, but this post doesn't change my opinion of

Sullivan, or the fact that I will post from his blog if I think he has something relevant to say. I am a true liberal in that I don't judge people based off of their sexual inclinations or escapades. I also like
people who can change change their minds and consider both sides of the argument. I don't feel the need to surround myself or my reading material by like minded people. Sullivan has done a great job during the primaries and this year of the Obama presidency. He did an outstanding job on the Iranian election. With Sullivan you can see true growth, that is more than I can say for many mushrooms on this site. The instant gratification crowd is wearing thin.

If the post was not intended for me, count me another female liberal who likes Sullivan.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

71. No it wasn't you

I just cant get behind anyone that champions a book of racist psuedo-science.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=90096&mesg_id=90150

[Prism]

72. He's a raging misogynist.

Of course, now that he keeps it firmly directed at Sarah Palin, many people let it slide. However, Sullivan has a long, long history of viciousness towards women. I didn't have to be a Clinton supporter to find his comments toward her last year completely horrifying.

But, hey, he says nice things about the President now. So his bizarre racial views, deep misogyny, and attacks on the LGBT community are just gravy.

[mitchtv]

66. K&R

I am not acquainted much with Jane, but Andrew is a disgusting piece of GOP filth. I've heard him say some pretty disgusting stuff , and read a lot posted here in order to parry the rightous LGBT cries here for equality

[apocalypsehow]

67. Ain't logical fallacies fun? This *tu quoque* silliness is the stuff of recess yards everywhere.

It's "so's your old man" silliness."

And to be frank, you're greatly exaggerating the extent to which people who are standing behind the president hold up Sullivan as a source to be quoted. Myself, I don't care for him one bit. But the anti-Obama anti-Democratic party crowd around here, on the other hand, has invested a good deal of effort and time into an attempt to defend the use of Hamsher in general and her employment of Blackface in particular.

[jonnyblitz]

69. ......

:kick:

[closeupready]

73. Amen.

K&R