The votes in senate among Democrats: 60-0 *FOR*... among Republicans: 40-0 *AGAINST*

[scheming daemons]

If you're fighting to kill this bill, you can call yourself a progressive, a liberal, a democrat, a socialist, or a martian for all I care.

...but in reality, you're a Republican. At best, you're a useful idiot for the Republicans.... but that's a distinction without a difference.


Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, votes like a duck.... it's a fucking duck.



Senate Democrats are voting unanimously for the bill. Senate Republicans are voting unanimously against it.


The lone SOCIALIST in the Senate, Bernie Sanders, is voting for it. Go ahead... call him a "corporatist".





When your interests are aligned 100% with a certain group of people who you otherwise claim to despise... it's time for a little soul searching on your part. You might not be who you thought you were.


When you and Rush Limbaugh agree on what should happen to the Senate Health Care Bill... is it the bill that is the problem, or is it you?

[Skink]

1. The arm twisting was actually applied to the Democrats in this case.

[NanceGreggs]

2. BRILLIANT!!!

:kick: & REC'D!!!

[ZombieHorde]

24. Using the same logic, do you think President Obama is a Republican? Consider...

Wiretapping prosecutions, Bush prosecutions, and the escalation of the war in Afghanistan.

[Armstead]

43. I used to admire you

Your Rec of this disruptor "left bashing" changes my opinion

Not that you care....I'm just one of those awful liberal/;progressives who don't believe that a DLC style healthcare plan that strengthens the grip of abusive insurance companies is the best thing to do.

[NanceGreggs]

59. Your former "admiration" is appreciated ...

... your current disdain is accepted without remorse or regret.

Just so's ya know, you - nor anyone else on this board - are not the arbiter of who is left, liberal and/or progressive.

Way too many self-appointed judges of such things on DU of late - and it invariably comes down to: "If you don't agree with ME, you are none of the above."

That being said, Happy Holidays to you and yours - and no, that's not snark. That's a matter of rising above political differences on a night when such things can be put aside.

The battle can be engaged again, with a vengeance, next week - next month - next year.

For now, I truly wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

:hi:

[BeatleBoot]

3. Except there are only 58 Democrats in the Senate

40 Pukes

2 Independents Joe Lieberman (Sloth - CT) and Bernie Sanders (I - Vermont)


But I agree with the essence of the post. If you hate it, you might as well be a puke.

[ZombieHorde]

56. Using the same logic, do you think President Obama is a Republican in essence? Consider...

Wiretapping prosecutions, Bush prosecutions, the escalation of the war in Afghanistan...

[BeatleBoot]

60. Nope. He's a Democrat.

And so am I.


Next!

[ZombieHorde]

62. Do you agree or disagree with the logic of the OP?

Seems to me, the logic in the OP would consider President Obama a Republican.

I don't believe President Obama is a Republican, I believe the logic in the OP is extremely flawed.

[Avalux]

4. Ahhh - strange bedfellows indeed.

Myself, I am excited about the vote tomorrow and will be watching history be made at 6 am. I am proud of Democrats and President Obama; it's not a perfect bill but it's a start! :hi:

I guess the anti-bill crowd will be snarling and posting nasty stuff here.

[Skink]

8. They are coming in at 6.

Might as well use the internet.

[jefferson_dem]

5. "Useful idiots" they are.

It's nice to see another sane voice on the board.

[Clio the Leo]

6. tell 'em about it! NT

[LastNaturalist]

7. Good, brutally honest, stuff.

[Parker CA]

9. K&R!!

[Gman]

10. "at best a useful idiot"

you got that right!

[LastNaturalist]

11. This is a really good post. I hope some take this to heart.

[boppers]

12. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground.

My "Alert" button has been busy.

[LastNaturalist]

14. I love your picture...

[Warren Stupidity]

13. I agree that this crappy bill has to pass.

I disagree that we should pretend that it isn't crappy.

[LastNaturalist]

17. I think that's fair enough too. Although I would call it "moderately good."

Just me. But I understand your concerns.

[firedupdem]

15. Rec'd!! n/t

[dave29]

16. Thank you.

.

[ZombieHorde]

18. Unrec for calling Lieberman a Democrat and using "band wagon" logic. nt

[scheming daemons]

19. Technically, I called Bernie Sanders a Democrat also.... no unrec for that transgression I guess

Nothing to do with "bandwagon logic."


If you support something that 100% of Republicans in congress support... then own it... you're a fucking Republican... no matter what you choose to call yourself.

[ZombieHorde]

20. "I called Bernie Sanders a Democrat also" Less offensive to my ear, but you're right, I should have

mentioned Sanders as well.

If you support something that 100% of Republicans in congress support... then own it... you're a fucking Republican... no matter what you choose to call yourself.

Is President Obama a Republican? Wiretapping prosecutions are a no, Bush prosecutions are a no, the escalation in Afghanistan...

[mullard12ax7]

21. God forbid a person would want health care instead of health insurance

Go call someone else a repuke ya corporatist whore.

[scheming daemons]

22. Yep... me and Bernie Sanders are corporatist whores

[mullard12ax7]

23. I guess you're another "useful idiot"

Have fun in the circle jerk of anti-American corporate spew.

[LastNaturalist]

25. You don't know what "useful idiot" means in this instance, do you?

[Armstead]

45. I know the classic definition of useful idiot

It was a right wing meme used to refer to liberals and progressives during the Anti-Communist witch hunts.

"Those civil rights activists, labor movement advocates are all useful idiots who are doing the Communists bidding without realizing it."

It is totally possible to disagree reasonably on either strategy of accepting this bill as is or pushing for something better.

But this blind bashing of progressive critics of this bill by accusing us of being Republican stooges is actually a mirror image of gthe useful idiot theory.

This bashing of liberals and progressives for daring to oppose a plan that is based on conservative principles (enshrine the "markets" as the entire basis of healthcare coverage) is really an example of useful idiots -- but a mirror image that is advancing the interests of corporate conservatism.

The "useful idiots" are those who are trying to stir up shit against progressives.

[JTFrog]

54. The only "useful idiots" I've seen around here

are on threads such as this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7186213

If you can find examples of "those who are trying to stir up shit against progressives" encouraging others to make alliances with teabaggers I'd sure love to see it.

:shrug:

[Jane Austin]

26. Well said. .............n/t

[depakid]

27. I reckoned you were patholigically myopic and shallow during the primaries-

You've now confirmed that suspicion beyond any shadow of a doubt.

[scheming daemons]

28. Wow... you STILL haven't gotten over Hillary's loss?

Seek help.

[LastNaturalist]

29. Some of these people haven't gotten over Dean's 2004 loss...

[depakid]

36. An all too predictable response- unfortunately.

Neither I, nor many others who've expressed __________(fill in the blank) about the substance and procedures chosen with this legislation- or indeed- many other policy decisions are (or were) Hillary supporters.

You cannot see that, because you're trapped in dichotomous thinking- for us or 'agin us sorts of things.

Armstead, for example has over the years been a very insightful poster here on this board- yet there are some who would holler PUMA!

or "he hasn't gotten over Dean." Or something similar.

I'm not as cool- nor as kind as he is- though I can give you and others a prezzy on Christmas Eve (given in Good Faith and in all earnesty) -when you look at ethical and moral dilemmas or philosophical aspects- or hard core angles of policy decisions- it's not so much the outcomes or the sides- but how you "find your way to one conclusion or another" that's important in the scheme of things- and this is true in personal, regional and national development.

It's up to you how to receive it- and what to do with the knowledge and insight about all sorts of things you may gain.

[ThePhilosopher04]

30. No, Bernie is misguided....

and has fallen for the "we'll fix it later" bullshit that's flying around Washington...not to mention he got a dose of morphine - metaphorically speaking - in the form of $10 billion for community health centers...that will cloud the judgment of the most sane among us.

[PBS Poll-435]

35. He's been duped!

:cry::cry::cry:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Because you're so much smarter than Bernie Sanders

and the other 58 Democrats in Congress. If only one of them -- JUST ONE OF THEM -- were gifted with your keen insights. Oh, how different things would have been.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

31. I am back for the bill, it's just I doubted my position for a moment. Let's get it done.

[hulka38]

48. When you came back in did you slide right under the door?

[PBS Poll-435]

:shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

32. Proud to K/R/W

:woohoo:

[Hekate]

33. Kick and Rec and get it done. nt

[Garam_Masala]

34. Let the facts speak for themselves

No Single Payer.
SP system is true HCR. Everything else is hodge podge.
With SP, every living person is in the same pool, and paying
on their ability to pay based on income. So simple yet so elegant.

P.O missing.
Not as good as SP, but the ONLY way to make sure there is competition
to the for profit private health insurance industry.

No re-import of Drugs.
This is missing from both bills as far as I know. Are you aware Big Pharma
passed on to us 11% increase this year? If this bill is not a bonanza for
Big Pharma with mandates and subsidized additional customers then I have
a bridge in Minnesota I can sell you.

No limits on insurance premiums.
Sure they can't cancel you or refuse you. But they can jack up premiums
for all their customers until there is enough profit to pay big bonuses
to the big corporate honcho's. Why there are no limits on pay when the
TARP recipients and Bailout recipients are subject to pay restrictions?

To sum up, I don't see much cost reduction to health care in these bills.
It is exactly the opposite...middle class and up will pay more.
Big Pharma and Big Insurance are the Big winners. If you don't believe me,
please check their stock performance on Wall Street.

[Undercurrent]

37. K&R

Excellent!

[eridani]

38. Mandates to buy SHIT from parasitic corporations are FASCIST n/t

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

52. This will probably never be laid to rest...

because too many people have their ego's involved at this point. But the bill passed by the Senate has specific coverage requirements. This from Sect 1302(b)(1):

(A) Ambulatory patient services.
(B) Emergency services.
(C) Hospitalization.
(D) Maternity and newborn care.
(E) Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment.
(F) Prescription drugs.
(G) Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices.
(H) Laboratory services.
(I) Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management.
(J) Pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

[eridani]

61. Great. Now can I have that stuff for a reasonable price?

The bottom level plan (the only one subsidized) pays only 60-70% of actual costs.

[Ed76638]

39. Enjoy your corporate mandates

Along with your fail in 2010 & 2012.

:rofl:

[mcablue]

40. You can be a Democrat and not agree with 100% of their votes

Your accusation that a huge number of DU'ers are Republicans is illogical.

[hulka38]

41. Progressives are Republicans? The reality is the senate bill just plain sucks.

Can two different groups of people dislike a bill for two very different reasons? Of course. That shouldn't be a difficult concept.

[pampango]

44. I would look more at how progressive Democrats voted, both in the House and the Senate,

rather than just the number of Democrats since many of them wouldn't be too comfortable at DU. :)

[hulka38]

47. I appreciate the smiley face pampango - Merry Christmas - but this is a nonsensical

and nasty little thread we have here. Frankly, I don't care where elected Democrats, especially senators, are comfortable. I hope they'd be uncomfortable. At least they'd be listening.

[Armstead]

42. Its Christmas -- but you are an asshole

[LastNaturalist]

46. Name-calling - always classy!

[Armstead]

49. Read the Original Post

My response was to the name-calling and insults and distortions in that.

If the poster has said something like "I believe it's really important for those who are critical of this bill to unite with Democrats because we have to stand together against the GOP and teabaggers" .....I might have disagreed but I would do so in a lot more civil way.

But he (she) tosses out a torrent of insults, and that will generate a similar response.

[scheming daemons]

55. I'd rather be an asshole than a tool for Michael Steele

...

and that's what you are.

[THUNDER HANDS]

50. why are you talking that crazy talk

don't you know it's better to have 0% of a perfect bill than 40% of an imperfect one?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. This is a Democratic Bill...

Being passed over the strident objections of every Republican in the Senate and over the howling of every right-wing talking head in the country.

It's the most important social justice legislation to be passed by Congress in 40 years.

If you're not at least somewhat pleased (hell, I'd like to see it improved) by these events, you're either a) not a progressive or b) a complete fool.

[Cali_Democrat]

57. Rec'd

:thumbsup:

[Wardoc]

58. Logical fallacies supplant actual idelogical purpose. The cool kids are doing it, we should too!

Garbage bill, garbage argument.

[Zavulon]

63. Bull.

Wanting to hold out for a good bill instead of passing a piece of shit under the president's "It's this year or never" pressure doesn't mean we're Republicans. And just because Limbaugh hated the same bill some of us Democrats hated doesn't mean it was for the same reasons. I didn't think it covered enough people or kicked in quickly enough. I hated the fact that it sucked up to insurance companies. Limbaugh hates it for entirely different reasons. He doesn't want anyone new covered under any circumstances, and for that fact he doesn't want anyone covered at all. That means our interests aren't aligned at all, much less your quoted 100%.

When you're trying to slap a label on everyone in your party who isn't gleefully accepting a shitty bill, the problem isn't with us - it's with the bill, and it's with you. Seriously, what are you expecting to accomplish with such a condescending post? Were you expecting us all to say "Gee, shucks, this genius is right about everything and I should make every attempt to benefit from the wisdom and depth of the ubiquitous 'here's how you should think' posts like this one?"

LOTS of Democrats hate this bill, and for you to say that all of us (or even a small percentage of us) have our interests "aligned 100% with a certain group of people" is absolute bullshit. We wanted a GOOD bill, not sloppy shit assembled after a complete lack of unity just so that the president can claim a campaign promise was kept. The ones we despise don't want any bill at all.

[thelordofhell]

64. Who is your favorite Senator?

How did your favorite Senator vote?

[hulka38]

67. You require a leader

[mtnester]

65. Which it will always be, and which is why we need to STOP negotiating

majority terms of surrender with a minority that will CONTINUE to vote this way...on everything

Twisting the blue dog arms is fine and should be a daily occurrence, but I would give the rest of them about 20 seconds of attention, then move on

[JVS]

66. If 57 dems and one independent want to eat Lieberman's and Nelson's turds and call them truffles....

that's their choice.