A great article exploring the Republican "HCR Bill is unconstitutional" meme

[NJmaverick]

seems the republicans consulted a right wing think tank for this one, rather than legal scholars.


http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/23/demint-tenther/

[NJmaverick]

1. LOL! Unreccs for the DUers who pushed this right wing meme

Shame they are not more dedicated to facts as they are the unrecc button

[Cha]

12. Apparently, Facts aren't as friendly

as the unrec button.

[Oregone]

2. So, is mandating an individual enter a marketplace and engage in commerce the same as...

regulating commerce? Or even levying taxes...for the General Welfare of the state.

Are apples oranges? Are dogs cats? Are elephants donkeys?

[NJmaverick]

3. Do you have the opinion of a credible judge, lawyer or legal scholar?

or just the talking points issued by right wing think tanks?

[Oregone]

5. No, I'm just a steaming pile of shit...

..with more principles than most Congressmen.



Do you? Do you have a decision to an EXACT parallel that justifies, according to law, mandating individuals engage in private market activity? It seems a tad bit unprecedent, so Im not clear on why a court would of even touched it.


There is nothing that I can think of that me or my children are forced to buy. Seriously. Nothing at all.

[NJmaverick]

7. I'm not the one claiming it's Unconstitutional, you are. If you make the claim

I would expect more than a talking point memo from a right wing think tank to back up your claims.

[Oregone]

8. I don't read right wing memos, so maybe you can help me out.

As I mentioned, its pretty damned unprecedented. Stay tuned for a future decision.


But hell, what do I know. Afterall, imminent domain passed mustard recently, so I'm sure this will to. If thats enough for you to sleep at night (under some roof that some corporation may take from you under a court decision), fine by me.

[Zomby Woof]

14. muster, not mustard

And it's "eminent domain".

:eyes:

[Oregone]

16. Thanks.

Can you spell supercaligifragiliciousexpidalidocious for me?

[housewolf]

22. supercalifrag...

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

[johnaries]

28. There's been several of them posted on DU recently.

[rasputin1952]

21. Do you have insurance now?

If you do, this does not affect you in any way.

If you don't, and are under a certain income level, you will receive a government voucher, to cover all/some of the cost of purchase.

If offered by your employer, would you refuse Health Care Insurance?

Of course, all of this is essentially moot until we see what comes out of conference.

[Oregone]

25. It doesn't affect me regardless.

That doesn't remove the fact that it is a piece of shit giveaway

[rasputin1952]

34. Well then...

never mind.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Having been a part of the process of politics, although not a politician, for many years, I know how things work in this country. Except in the most incredible of circumstances, we have an extremely ponderous system. It is often frustrating...but without it, there is a possibly we might have become a theocracy or something worse by now.

[LiberalFighter]

37. Doesn't effect him because he lives in Canada.

[boppers]

23. Schools.

All parents (indeed, all of society) are required to educate children, including paying costs for textbooks, pens, papers, buildings, teachers, administrators, etc.

There is now a much larger publicly funded school system than publicly funded medical system, so much so that people take schooling for granted. It wasn't always the case, though, and the history was long and messy (and is still being debated).

[Oregone]

24. Schools are a government funded social service provided by the public sector

Its not the same as a mandated individual private purchase from a marketplace, subsidized by the government. Apples are not oranges.

[boppers]

26. Schools are sometimes government funded, sometimes public provided.

There are competing private systems, and the government mandates education.

If we go the same way with healthcare that we went with schools in the 18th-19th century, in the next 20 years we'll see a shift from private, high dollar institutions to a mix of public and private ones.

[Oregone]

27. LOL. The government isn't mandating anyone engage in commerce in regards to education

That is a fantasy to equate the two very different systems. Blatant intellectual dishonesty

[boppers]

29. The government mandates education.

How you get it is up to you. If you want to go on the state run plans, or a pay more for private services, you can. If your employer covers it, you can use that.

What you cannot do is refuse to give your children an education. And now, you also cannot refuse to provide them (and yourself) healthcare.

[Oregone]

30. Oh, you're right! So where is the free public health insurance system anyone can enroll in?

Since the systems are the same, ya know. Sure, I guess everyone can satisfy both mandates without buying anything at all!

Merry X-Mas! Its a Christmas Miracle

BTW, oh, since we are drawing parallels, are the private health insurance subsidies like school vouchers?!? Oh wow, apples are oranges!

[boppers]

31. Since your profile says you're in Canada, I didn't know where to look for you.

Interesting Voucher comparison.

If you want to go with the current public system, there's a lookup tool here for health care sites:
http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/

You can supplement that with insurance, or (under the proposed plan) pay into the national pool once a year, which is what covers the public systems. Kind of like how you can pay for the school system in taxes, or buy into additional private schooling.

[Oregone]

32. LOL. Yes, just like public schools!

Im sure the masses will be flocking to the absolutely free, readily available plans (like public school) rather than be grabbing subsidies (vouchers) for their private alternatives. Im not sure where the whole employer system draws a parallel, but since its all the same, ya know


I wish I didn't move and could experience this amazing egalitarian system.

[boppers]

33. 10,000+ new facilities already funded.

That should help provide more coverage... but I'm sure there will be many folks who opt for private systems to supplement that coverage.

[LiberalFighter]

38. Where do you think the government gets the money to pay for the schools?

[Oregone]

43. Progressive taxation

[Igel]

45. Property taxes.

A flat tax laid on the worth of real property.

If you make $50k and are in a house you can barely afford you might well pay more than if you make $100k and are in a house that barely meets your actual needs.

Minus things like Tx 'homestead exemption' and that can make it even less 'progressive.'

[WinkyDink]

42. Public education is non-profit, or haven't you looked? No share-holders.

[Oregone]

44. Further...just consider...

Will a billionaire be paying millions in taxes for schools, or thousands?

Will a billionaire be paying millions for health insurance, or thousands?

Tax fairness is inherent in the tax code (to some extent), and marginal rates ensure the more you make is the more you pay (beyond proportional)

For this insurance system, other than subsidy funding, personal insurance will cost a flat value that isn't based on what you make. Its a very different approach of ensuring everyone in a society is provided with something. Even when you take out the inefficiencies and profit of a private system, you have to consider the personal expenses in this approach are anything but egalitarian.

[Orangepeel]

6. it is levying taxes. you just get a break if you have health insurance

like you get a break if you have kids or are married or pay a mortgage. They don't want to call it a tax because that's bad politically, but it is one.

[Oregone]

9. Haha. I guess thats a semantic loophole

Levying taxes (but providing an exemption) as opposed to penalizing for failure to meet a mandate.

Ug. Whatever. :)

[depakid]

11. It's not like levying taxes- which are paid to government entities

though you're correct that in actual effect (as opposed legal status) they are taxes paid (and wasted) on an fragmented and inefficient financing and reimbursement system.

Should be an interesting set of decisions that come out of the courts.

[NJmaverick]

13. The fines are paid to the government

[depakid]

17. That will be a separate issue

and equally interesting to see how the courts will come down on the point. Essentially what we're looking at is a crime of omission against private entities -though the argument will probably look at the risk pool for the public detriment involved (even if the risk pool itself isn't the sole- or even the major driver of prices under this scheme).

[Orangepeel]

18. 2% of your income will be paid to the IRS unless you show you are exempt (i.e., have insurance)

the IRS is a government entity. That sounds like a tax to me.

[depakid]

19. I'm sure that will be one of the arguments

It'll be fascinating to see how the various judges and justices line up. We may see some very strange bedfellows.

[Orangepeel]

20. it will definitely be an argument during the elections

that won't be so much fun, though.

[phleshdef]

40. Its all in the language. They should give people with insurance a 2% tax credit, the result would be

...the same. Its like if, instead of giving people with children a tax credit, we gave people without them a penalty... that would be like mandating that people have children or face a penalty, but in practice its really no different than how things currently work, its the language they use to describe it.

[WinkyDink]

41. "Are elephants donkeys?" Never. But lately the reverse is true.

[firedupdem]

4. Rec'd! Thanks n/t

[Cha]

10. On the rw we have demint and ensign whipping up their distraction

via some Unconstitutional nonsense and on the left we have hamsher hooking up with grover norquist and whipping up the hysteria to March with the Teabaggers as distraction on the left.

[Odin2005]

15. What's that saying about broken clocks?

Then again, I'm a Left-Libertarian, I take Liberty and the dangers of authoritarian corporatism seriously.

[lamp_shade]

35. Great. Here's a kick for the morning (mourning?) folks.

[LiberalFighter]

36. We need to make sure that all the Democratic Senators understand that it is constitutional.

I'm sure my Senator is not too bright when it comes to the Constitution.


Preamble
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article 1 Clause 1

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[Zynx]

39. This is such a joke.

Honestly, this does not warrant serious debate.