I disagree with the belief that it is better to sell out than elect the alternative

[joeprogressive]

The point that the alternative is much worse than the status quo is flawed and myopic logic. We have to look at the much bigger picture in a very strategic way. One is that whether a public option passed or not, the Democratic Party can still lose all power by 2012. If that happens, I would rather lose by standing up for what is right then not lose because we abandoned our ideals. We can recover quicker from the former when the benefits of those policy decisions finally become realized. We had the majority and we had the support of the people and most every major organization that matters and we blew it. People will not easily forgive us if this incremental experiment fails.

I made the argument in 2006 that I did not want to win back the majority until 2008. People argued that we couldn't handle two more years of Bush policies. However, we not only got two more years of Bush policy anyway, as I had predicted, we gave the republicans the false argument, but a talking point nonetheless, that the Democrats were somehow responsible for the recession because they had a slim majority in congress. People elected them to get us out of Iraq and they could have used the nuclear option to do so. When they failed to do so, their approval rating went to 18%. Luckily people came back to the party in 2008 because they "didn't want the alternative". We can't keep hoping this will happen. If we continue to cave, eventually the base will erode and without the base, the Democratic Party is nothing.

What I believe is by saying we can't have 8 more years of Bush style governance, you are taking a short sided approach. I don't fear 8 years of conservative rule, I fear 32 years of it. I fear we are heading in that direction if we don't stand up for our principles. Many of the current Democrats deserve to lose even if a republican takes their place. Then people will have a choice eventually between a true progressive and the alternative.

So, I don't think we will sit out the election so we can have republicans in charge. We are threatening to sit out the next election to affect real change. Fear must be a factor. We are threatening to sit out in hopes that our president and fellow Democrats will still deliver meaningful change. Enabling the current philosophy weakens us down the road and lets elected Democrats believe that they can remain safe even when they sell us out because we wouldn’t dare vote for the alternative.

Please answer this question, is it better for labor to strike and risk losing their job and paycheck or is it better to take a very small concession that management offers so they are able to go back to business as usual? I think supporters of Obama's position advocate taking the security of a job because it is better than no job at all. Some slaves stay to get their next meal and avoid beatings. Battered women endure beatings because of fear and the security of a home.

I refuse to be a mistreated worker, slave, or battered woman so that I can avoid the discomfort of a short term situation when I can endure the pain for a while so that I may achieve a better long term outcome.



Edited to conform with rules of not naming an individual poster in OP

[ananda]

1. Agree.

Perhaps this country is in a state of the battered
syndrome, and in some cases something like
Stockholm Syndrome.

[guruoo]

15. It's more like a case of outrage fatigue, IMO

[Peacetrain]

2. Are you calling out a specific poster in an individual op?

Let me edit to say..

You got a beef with someone and something they have posted or op'd on.. you answer it or ask your question in that specific op..

This is just wrong, to start an op on the merits of an individual and their political stance..

You have crossed the line as far as I am concerned..

Edit #2

Thank you for taking the persons name out of your title..

[defendandprotect]

3. Probably should be clear to me . . . but would you be good enough to

confirm you are NOT supporting this health care deform?

And presume Nance is?

Or is that reversed?

[joeprogressive]

5. I am awaiting the revisions before making a decision

but in a nutshell, I am saying that without any of the elements of single payer, public option, medicare expansion or any significant cost controls on insurance companies, I am likely to not support this legislation or the people that do. I think in the long term we will hurt our party much more than losing power in the short term if we were to get rid of the current sell outs.

[defendandprotect]

6. Okay . . . that I absolutely agree with . . . so . . .

what's Plan B after that?

Are we all going to turn from voting for the "lesser of evils" -- politicians with

their pockets full of corporate money -- or are we going to continue doing the same

thing again and again with the same results?

Can liberals/progressives come together as a voting bloc and actually create CHANGE???

Create meaningful change???

[joeprogressive]

11. I won't support Democrats that look anything like republicans

I will send all of my support to people like Alan Grayson. I won't vote for any republicans but I won't vote for the people that sold us out either. Hopefully, they will learn their lesson and when they re-emerge or they are challenged by a true progressive, the party will build itself back to something great. The way we are going we won't ever accomplish anything meaningful.

[defendandprotect]

28. Good to hear . . .

[RepublicanElephant]

4. it'll take quite a while to recover from a supreme court stacked with middle-aged fascists.

just sayin'.

[joeprogressive]

7. I agree, then Obama should do what is right, hopefully get re-elected

and oversee any new appointments. If we lose the presidency for the next one or two election cycles, we lose one or two SC seats that. If we lose the next 4 elections we lose all SC seats; take your pick.

[defendandprotect]

10. BTW, who's up next as most likely to retire . . . Ginsburg may be ill?

Unfortunately, I think all the right wingers are hale and hearty and happy to be

screwing us on the court!!!

[defendandprotect]

8. True . . . but they also knew they had the protection of right wing when they pulled

off the steal for W --

If we can change the climate in America to a lare degree I don't think they

would be so willing to do the dirty work of the right wing -- ????

Of course, that excludes Scalia and Thomas -- two extremists -- one religious, the other a pervert!

[Vidar]

9. K&R.

[joeprogressive]

12. Let me clarify that I am not advocating direct support of republicans

I am stating that I will not support Democrats that do not support my beliefs. If that results in them losing, then they did that to themselves and they deserve to lose. When a progressive eventually takes their place, I can take credit for that not those that voted for the more palatable alternative.

[Peacetrain]

13. Let me ask you a question Joe.. Just how much do you support the Democrats in office?

50%, 70%, 80%

I am shooting for 80%

Now I would like to have 100%... I am not lying to you..

But I will be hanged, if I will kneecap my party for the other 20% and give into a living hell of
tea bagging republicans (the far far right is now control of that party)

Call me pragmatic.. hell call me a moderate.

But do not call me to live in that.

[BeFree]

14. It could have been so different

If the left had given its support to that DLC scrooge and gun stealing, tree-hugging, commie-pinko, socialistic, rich kid in the 2000 election, GWB would have never even been mentioned on DU. We may not of even had a DU.

But they didn't and we do.

Yep, they stood for what's right and we all got to live under the right in power for 8 long terrible years.

Its all well and good to fight for the best we can get. But when it comes down to a choice between night and day (the rise, or descent) I choose sunshine. The last 8 dark years makes that choice all too evident.

We only get sunshine when we all join together to fight the dark. Lone wolfs, when it comes right down to it, have proven to be a disaster for this society's better health.

And I write this as a lone wolf type. But I have learned when the fight should end and the blend should begin.

[guruoo]

16. Good luck with your 'sitting out the next election' experiment...

We only have our country to lose, so no big deal.

[rasputin1952]

17. If D's sit out the next election...you will have your change...

and regret it for the rest of your life.

The GOP is in it's death throes, centrists, which all elections depend on, are leaving the GOP in droves, only fanatics will remain in a short time. If one sits out the next election, and allows even a smidgen of these maniacs to get seats, the arena will change dramatically, and the fault will lay squarely at the feet of those who sat on their hands...no one else will be held accountable. Breathing life back into the GOP would be horrific.

The whole, "I have my principles" meme is an idealistic and nice POV...but not everyone share's another's "principles", but may be guided to the notion that others will sit out the election, "so what's the point" kind of attitude arises. This is a disastrous scenario, and if you think that giving a vindictive GOP, it's ranks filled with nothing more than ideologues who have their own "principles" any kind of power is not a set up for destruction of this nation, you really need to open your eyes.

There is no viable 3rd party, as it is, the electorate is split, if a strong D showing is not forthcoming...your "principles" mean nothing in the scheme of things. You, and others will set the stage fore far worse than was visited upon us during the savagery of the bush years.

[CitizenLeft]

19. absolutely.

Well said.

I had this same argument with someone I love dearly. I asked, what happens when the extreme right wingnuts win, when take over the court THIS time, when they rip away all the laws that YOU, personally, fought for and protested for and that people actually died for? What then? Her answer? Then maybe it's best to just start all over.

OMG.

[depakid]

30. As the corrent tendency is unlikely to change- that precisely what's going to happen.

though I do see some silver linings in the sense that the weak kneed Reid will be gone along with Blanche Lincoln and a whole host of blue dogs.

Frankly, it IS better in the long run for the party to be perceived as actually standing for AND FIGHTING FOR something- preferably for popular progressive positions on the issues, rather than appearing to be just another bunch of pandering, unprincipled and even more pathetic politicians (who never met an issue or constituency that they wouldn't sell down the river).

[suzie]

18. Comparing battered women to voting for Democrats is really sick and mean.

[Cha]

26. Typical though. Afraid they can't make a point without

hyperbolic melodrama.

[Frances]

20. Your thinking is exactly what got us Reaganomics

I heard the exact same argument from people who refused to vote for Reagan's opponent for governor of California. They said they refused to vote for the lesser of two evils. Pat Brown was defeated and Reagan went on to become President. When the first Bush ran against Clinton, many Repubs voted for Ross Perot. Clinton became President. When Gore ran against W, many Dems voted for Nader. W won.

If you want to work against Obama, fine. But then you will be responsible for a Republican being in the White House.

The reality is that unions and pro-union states are losing representation in Congress. The states that will be gaining are Utah (extremely right wing) and Texas (right wing).

[shadesofgray]

21. K&R. I'm so sick of Dems giving in on everything, instead of fighting for it.

[OregonBlue]

22. So maybe your need to form a new blog called "Independent Underground".

[ibegurpard]

29. this forum used to be more that way

now it seems to be a repository for the corporate shills that have a stranglehold on the Democratic Party.

[OregonBlue]

31. Actually I was being sarcastic. I like Obama. I don't think he's perfect but I still like him very

much. Seems lots of people around here have reached a point where everything the prez does is bad, bad, bad.

[treestar]

23. We lose either way by your calculation

Rather we lose by sticking to our ideals than by abandoning our ideals. We lose either way. Do the voters figure in this?

[Undercurrent]

24. My mama used to call this,

cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[quaker bill]

25. Having been through

most of 30 years of truly bad to worse governance, I am done with it. While good government would be nice, if all we can get is mediocre government it is at least less harmful.

I sense a young bull in you.

There is this tale once told to me by a US Marines veteran of Iwo Jima: (cleaned up from the original Marine-speak - fill in the blanks as led)

A young bull and an old bull were standing on a hill looking over a herd of cows. The young bull turned to the old bull and said "I am going to RUN down this hill and have my way with one of those cows." To this the old bull replied, "Thats ok son, you go do that. However, I think I am going to WALK down this hill and have my way with all of them."

In parting may I say, "Thats ok son, you go and do that".

[TheKentuckian]

27. I'm not going anywhere so I'm reduced to gnashing my teeth

when my team fucks up.