If there's one thing I can't stand about some liberals, it's the unrelenting victim mentality.

[Bicoastal]

We lost 3,000 citizens at the hands of al Qaeda on 9/11, but we can't feel good about eliminating their leader because:

a) feeling good somehow means we don't care about bad things that are happening or have already happened, so we can't ever really feel good about anything

b) we had to kill him, and that makes us the bad guys for some reason, even though he trained people to kill Americans in the most destructive way possible and was shooting directly at us at the time of his capture

c) this might possibly change the narrative that America is in a irreversible decline, which we can repeat over and over again until everyone is too depressed to get out of bed in the morning while taking very few steps to try and change anything because why even bother if we're all doooooooooomed

There's being compassionate, and then there's just flagellating yourself for no reason--other than the opportunity to point out the scars on your back to anyone you catch acting happy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Not this liberal.

I, for one, am glad the son of a bitch is dead, and if he had a grave I'd be dancing on it without even a flicker of shame.

[calimary]

47. I just put my "Obama 08" yard sign back out in the front yard.

I'm happy today. I'm proud of my President and our Navy Seals. I'm proud that a great justice WAS finally done. We got the bastard who knocked those buildings down and killed all those people and started this nightmare that's left so many families with that empty place at their dinner tables and so many children going through life without one of their parents. And as an unrepentent partisan, I'm REALLY glad it was OBAMA who got him, with the White House under Democratic Party control instead of the alternative. I'm glad it was brains over brawn. I'm glad, as a former reporter, that it was the investigative stuff, not the swaggering cowboy "diplomacy" crap, that got him.

Love what Ed Shultz just said - in one week, the President delivered a birth certificate, and a death certificate! While the whole time being under so much fucking criticism from the bad guys and even some within our own ranks.

This is a good and VERY satisfying day. And we should treat it as such.

[Codeine]

2. I honestly wonder if they're so dour

and ideologically correct in real life? I mean, do they just sit around and converse in stock phrases culled from Pacifica radio and back issues of the Socialist Worker?

[Richardo]

5. Ha!

Yes. Yes they do. I've heard them.

[blondeatlast]

10. Some of them do, yes. They also wonder why no one ever invites them out or to parties. nt

[msanthrope]

12. You party while the workers suffer? n/t

[Codeine]

13. . . .

:spray:

[blondeatlast]

17. And dress their cildren in costumes and make sport of them. nt

[SidDithers]

16. Can't wait to hear how wsws and The Progressive paint the issue...

I'm sure we'll see those perspectives posted here later.

Sid

[msanthrope]

56. I just wanna know how the Gates Foundation is involved.

Damn vaccinating bastards!!

[Hannah Bell]

91. this is all you do, right? i don't think i've ever seen you post anything but personal jabs.

[Carni]

73. I agree! Dour is right!

Good riddance to that nasty M-fer!

I'm DAMNED HAPPY they got him (guess I'll have my Liberal decoder ring taken away from me now)

[Ken Burch]

123. No. We're just against arrogance and imperialism.

The Kennedy administration shows what happens to us in the world when we try to tie liberalism to a "rising nation" model. It leads straight to this:



And to OTHER shit...like sending the Marines into the Dominican Republic to make sure the right-wing party can rig the elections.

I love my country...that's why I DON'T want it to think it can do absolutely anything.

[Dorian Gray]

181. LOL

Now this is funny.

[KittyWampus]

3. Bicoastal- I personally didn't feel "good" last night. Nor did I celebrate. I understand human psych

psychology enough to understand why so many do feel good and celebrate. And I honor that many who've been in pain for the last 10 years having lost a loved one can experience some closure.

Some DU'ers CONSTANTLY do anything they can to deflate Obama's accomplishments. I'm not one of them.

And I'm not a victim and I'm not happy/sad. Okay?

But then, I'm not starting posts critiquing other DU'ers today.

[snot]

8. I feel similarly.

I just can't get happy about killing, regardless of who it is that's killed.

Also, Bin Ladin doesn't seem that impt. anymore -- indeed, his main imptc. has long seemed his function as official bogeyman.

[Habibi]

20. Thank you.

I can't dance. Is it justice? Perhaps. But I have to wonder: if US intelligence could get him now, why not ten years ago? Why did so many innocent people have to die in the meantime?

[Angry Dragon]

21. +1000

[ecstatic]

58. That's exactly my take as well. +1000 nt

[still_one]

4. I wouldn't generalize what you may see on a few posts on DU. Most of the posts on DU are quite

glad the sob has been eliminated

[OHdem10]

6. Not this Liberal. In fact, you might be confusing Liberal with

Leftist. Just a thought.

[tallahasseedem]

7. Word...

I am completely satisfied about these events.

[JVS]

9. We've lost nearly as many citizens in the Afghan war, more if you count contractors.

:party:

[Hannah Bell]

97. those people don't count. they're glad to die for freedom (tm).

for the record, more deaths in afghanistan than 911:

"As of April 21, 2011, there have been 2,340 coalition deaths"

"the U.S. Department of Labor confirmed that by March 31, 2011, a total of 763 civilian contractors were killed in Afghanistan"

= 3103

[Fuzz]

11. Love the post. I'm a fighting liberal. I don't back down, and I'm not going to apologize

for my stand on the issues. Often this gets me responses like 'what happened to the tone change?' or 'I thought liberals were supposed to like everyone' or some other crap.

He's dead, awesome. He was a mass murdering thug.

[FLPanhandle]

48. +1

Well said.

[Fuzz]

55. It also gets me in trouble here on this board though.

;)

[sufrommich]

14. Right on! Couldn't have expressed it better myself.

Lots of sickening posts here since last night.

[bluestateguy]

15. You got it

This mentality is what allows Republicans to say that they are the party of America and Democrats are the party of victims and losers.

Such a mentality is what gave us McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis.

[David__77]

18. McGovern, Mondale, and Dukakis should have been elected.

Especially Mondale...

[Armstead]

26. Yes the world is much better off because Bush Sr. was president instead of Dukakis

Christ on a cracker.......

:sarcasm:

[Art_from_Ark]

140. Really, that was just too much for words

All three of those Democrats were so much better than the people they lost to.

[Douglas Carpenter]

95. George McGovern is a REAL live war hero...not a make believe one

politically exploiting jingoism and irrational nationalistic bullshit.

[Hannah Bell]

98. wtf?

[sabrina 1]

125. McGovern was a WW 11 Fighter Pilot and a hero.

Odd to see someone denigrate a great Democrat like this on a democratic board. A real hero who didn't walk around pretending to be one, like the one who got two terms in the WH after going AWOL.

But I have to get used to the upside down world we live in here in the US. A true hero is denigrated by his own party, while a coward who went AWOL is revered by his.

If you want to know what causes Liberals to be laughed at, it is how easily they give up their principles just so the Rightwing bullies won't think badly of them.

One thing I have to grudgingly admire about the right, they will never do what you just did to one of their true war heroes.

The fickleness of the left makes them seem weak. Unwilling to stand up for decent Democrats, like McGovern who was targeted by the right. Makes me wonder about this party, whether they can be trusted to stand up for anything, other than politics as usual.

[Ken Burch]

126. Your mentality is what gave us LBJ AND let LBJ rig the '68 convention

just so he could make sure we lost to Nixon.

When you get hawkish, everything liberal stops.

[Bonobo]

19. And I can't stand the lack of consistency.

When you opposed the Iraq War, were you supporting Saddam?

When you opposed Israel assassinating people IT identified as enemies, did you consider it from their perspective?

When the crowds in Fallujah celebrated the killing of American contractors, did it occur to you that it was totally justified?

Would you have cheered as loudly if Bush had killed Bin Ladin?

If Bush strikes had killed Gaddafi's son and grandchildren, would you have so blithely dismissed it as "Well, war is hell"?

Fucking inconsistency and the lack of a moral compass as long as it suits your political agenda --THAT'S what makes me sick--to my stomach.

[Ikonoklast]

27. And if it futhered their agenda, Osama and his ilk would put a bullet in your head without

even blinking.

Fuck that murderous prick, I only wish they could bring him back to life every morning and kill him every night.

[wtmusic]

So you'd put a bullet in his head without even blinking to further your agenda.

Funny how that works.

[Ikonoklast]

43. If you want to play nice with mass murderers, that's your problem.

Me, yes, I want them rudely deprived of life.

Osama will never get to kill another person, ever.

[wtmusic]

46. Not at all. But it's funny you're so special you get to decide

which mass murderers deserve justice and which don't.

USA! USA! :patriot:

[Ikonoklast]

49. Yep, that's me. I get to decide who lives, and who dies.

I thought we were talking about the recently departed, but not mourned (except by his fans on the loonie left) Osama bin Laden.


Funny how some are using this to try and score some obscure political points against a president they never liked.

And that is really the entire issue here, isn't it?

[wtmusic]

51. Breaking a personal rule and responding to a post that makes no sense

just to say a president I never liked is also responsible for 100x as many innocents dying as is OBL.

When justice is a bit less one-sided I'll be more cheerful. :hi:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

84. you know.....you're not really an iconoclast

It's one of those by-definition things, unfortunately.

Also, please post the name of anyone on the left who mourned bin Laden's death.

Thank you.

[Hannah Bell]

101. +100. same old idol-worship from that one

[Ken Burch]

129. Indeed...it's a horrible slander to say anybody mourned or even LIKED the guy

That's no different than the Freepers who said people who questioned the Iraq War were "pro-Saddam".

[Cherchez la Femme]

89. Following the Rule of Law is "playing nice"?

Funny how our legal system has taken care of everything up until 9/11.

When Bush changed things around, like loss of real freedoms we once enjoyed, that was Bad.

When Obama orders people to be shot on sight --both U.S. citizens and non-- without benefit of trial, bypassing our legal system (What? We don't have the Death Penalty?)
that's something to be celebrated!

AND something to pile on and dis damn "Liberals" about --on a "Progressive" site, no less!

Really, how dare they want our government to practice what it preaches! Can't stand 'em!

Yes, let's laugh at these "dour" Libruls (may as well just say it) who "converse in stock phrases culled from Pacifica radio and back issues of the Socialist Worker" Guffaw!
These Lefties not only 'oppose a war' but they 'oppose their country'! Guffaw/Disgust they're not Patriotic!
"They also wonder why no one ever invites them out or to parties." Haw haw, those Losers! Wait, is there bound to be something about living in the 'rents basement eating Cheetos? Let's read on...
They "party while the workers suffer?" Socialists have turned into damned Commies! Get off my lawn!
"vaccinating bastards!!" See? Loony Conspiracy Theorists!
"I'm a fighting liberal. I don't back down, and I'm not going to apologize" --unlike those weak PUSSIES (which, I've read here, isn't anti-women and completely A-OK to say at DU! By *real* men with balls, I guess?
"Lots of sickening posts here since last night." --because people wanted bin Laden to be tried in a U.S. court of law. Yes, sickening!
bin Laden is "mourned...by his fans on the loonie left" Yep. Sure he is.


And these obvious call-outs are reaching 100 posts and still open for comment.
With practices like these, when Obama is out of office, DU is going to become a ghost town.

With threads like these. Good riddance.


But how much you wanna bet THIS comment is deleted for calling people out

by using their own words, so proudly typed

previously, in this very thread? :rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

102. so the "new democrats" want us to believe.

[sudopod]

41. >Implying people in our government or corporations wouldn't do the same thing. nt

[Armstead]

29. +1

[Ken Burch]

127. Hear, Hear!

A hell of a lot people seem to be channeling LBJ here tonight. What's in the water?

[cliffordu]

22. K&R. I have not one ounce of remorse that the son of a bitch is dead.

Not one..

[Armstead]

23. God I hate those liberals....Rotten malcontents...Scummy leftists...Party-Pooper Progressives

Hate 'em all.

They're not real Americans.

:sarcasm:

[Richardo]

28. Wrong - the OP says 'some' liberals

Pro Tip: For sarcasm, irony and satire to be effective, they have to be based on at least a grain of truth. :thumbsup:

[Armstead]

35. It is just another unnecessary example of liberal bashing

You know, to be honest, I am thrilled they got bin Laden. And looking at some of the more conspiratorial or negative posts here, the thought actually crossed my mind "Lighten up for a minute guys and celebrate some good news. This is a good thing."

But I also realize WHY some people do not feel like celebrating wholeheartedly. And I figured everyone is entitled to respond in their own way.

But posts like the OP, and some of the other "liberal bashing" replies on this thread are also inappropriate and needlessly divisive because it's just being used as another excuse to insult liberals/progressives. It sound more like Fox news than DU.

[Vattel]

53. nailed it

[hfojvt]

57. is it unnecessary though?

let's suppose that we want to win. Doesn't it help to "bash" those who are engaging in behaviour that makes it hard for us to win?

Behaviour like being a party pooper when most people are celebrating?

One of the key memes that Republicans use against us is the idea that "liberal elites think they are better than you".

And so many liberals help to prove that meme right every day by constantly talking about how stupid and wilfully ignorant the rest of the country is, and how great we leftists are.

Here we have a situation where 90% of America is celebrating, is happy. People are marching in the streets and singing "ding dong the witch is dead." Including, of course, a majority of our own group. But others are standing off in a corner and saying "look at those low class morons celebrating, what a bunch of crass savages" and "yeah, they just don't realize that to the rest of the world, WE are the terrorists." It's probably the same group that brings their picture of Chairman Mao to every 4th of July celebration. The ones who would rather foment a revolution than win elections.

Well, bashing them, or distancing the left from them might help to win some of those election thingies.

[PassingFair]

64. Really, because I thought that following through on campaign promises is what won elections.

Perhaps I just DREAMED the loss of the House in the last election.

I wish the mods were able to delete all of these pathetic flamebait posts.

[hfojvt]

65. you must have missed the last few elections

In the last election, the RNC and the CoC successfully tied Democratic candidates to Obama and Pelosi, and that brought many of them down. In the 2008 election they attempted to tie Obama to Ayers and to Jeremiah Wright. Obama went on TV and bashed his old friend. He seemed to think that was necessary in order to win the election.

Following through on campaign promises only helps if the vast majority of voters agree with those campaign promises.

[PassingFair]

66. You live in a strange little world.

We took a thumping in the last election
(it was 2010, in case you forgot) because
people were disappointed that all of the
changes that they thought were coming were
negotiated away by the administration.

A vast majority of voters DID want change.

[hfojvt]

70. I live in a world where I saw tons of ads on TV

and those ads said "Ike Skelton is supposed to represent Missouri and not Nancy Pelosi" and "Robin Carnahan is gonna be a rubber stamp for Obama instead of representing Missouri" and then quoted Obama saying at a fundraiser "It already would have been done, if I had Robin Carnahan."

The idea that we took a thumping because people were mad that Obama and Democrats were not liberal enough seems ridiculous to me. Because the public wanted more liberal policies they ran out and elected a whole bunch of Republicans. That's a popular idea here, where very liberal policies are very popular, but it doesn't fit the real world as I see it.

[PassingFair]

72. They wanted help, and they don't care WHO gives it to them.

If we back-peddle on our promises, they'll
vote for someone else.

People don't want to die in bankruptcy.
People don't want to lose their houses.

[Kurovski]

119. +1

[Ken Burch]

132. It will be impossible for us to do anything progressive it we lower ourselves permanently

to a Truman/LBJ/Scoop Jackson foreign policy. All THAT can do is guarantee that all the federal funds go to kill people rather than keep them alive. A few recycling baskets and Michelle's organic garden don't outweigh that.

[Cherchez la Femme]

164. Oh for God's sake what do you think the Repukes are gonna say??

Do you actually think if there were none on the Left but all Moderates-Dem Conservatives, that the 'pukes would suddenly say 'oh, those are good people. We'll play fair now'?

The thought processes --rather the lack of-- in these threads are amazing.

[Hannah Bell]

105. they do. that's why obama won in 2008, and that's why dems lost in 2010.

[Ken Burch]

131. You can't bash progressives and still do progressive things.

You're basically saying that anyone who isn't shouting "USA! USA!" should be sacrificed for the greater good.

I strongly suspect you'd have been fine with LBJ betraying the Mississippi Freedom Democrats in 1964-a betrayal that didn't gain him a single vote anywhere in the fall, by the way.

[Cherchez la Femme]

165. So what did they elect him for, if not the Platform he ran on?

Platform = Campaign promises.


Seriously, answer. I'd really like to know.

[Armstead]

78. Um, the same charges were used against those who opposed the Iraq War

I don't personally agree with all of the current "downer" posts (and some I partially agree with).

But (apart from the inevitable trolls) most of it stems from their fundamental beliefs about the national Security State which certainly is a valid subject for debate and discussion. It actually is dangerous for us all to uncritically accept the Official Story, as we learned so often during the Bush years.

If you want to call it "elitist" to go against the grain of popular opinion on something, fine that's your opinion. But IMO it is counterproductive to try to marginalize everyone who does not share in the "conventional wisdom" on issues, or believing they should be jettisoned.

[hfojvt]

79. it's not elitist to go against the grain

but it IS elitist to look down and be disgusted by people who are going with the grain.

The other part is the seeming need to reflexively bash America. Democrats like Hubert H Humphrey call America a shining light on a hill. DU, on the other hand, will 'celebrate' every holiday with a thread on the front page that talks about how evil America is and always has been. When the rest of America is singing "ding dong the witch is dead" and it seems like the left is upset, that we take the side of the witch against the imperialist fascist racist corporate Amerikkka.

That's not elitist, but it's also not something a vast majority of Americans are gonna agree with or even respect. It's one thing to oppose a war and something else to oppose your country.

When our own messaging becomes "you are an idiot, life sucks, America sucks, religion is evil, we are all doomed" then it becomes very hard to continue, "but vote for our guys." That messaging often seems to be the DU conventional wisdom, but I go against the grain on it.

[Armstead]

80. In some instances that may be correct. But being critical of the status quo requires being critical

Personally, I don't think America is an awful place, religion sucks, etc. etc. America is great, i love it.

But I do think we're screwing the pooch on a basic level in many ways. And to address those things one has to be critical.

We have, for example, through our policies and values been allowing the nation's wealth to be siphoned to a handful of obscenely wealthy and powerful oligarchs, who are now in the process of also killing democracy.

Sorry of that's not cheery, cheery...But it's the truth as I see it. I wish I could simply say "America is the greatest country on earth, but we have a few minor problems." That accomplishes exactly nothing, except to reinforce the status quo, and allows the powerful to continue to metastasize by our collective complacency.

[Hannah Bell]

104. yes, by all means, liberals should join the limbaugh nazis so they can "win".

[eridani]

113. People who think that their nationality (or color or sexual orientation or whatever)

--is better than some other version, are the real elitists.

[hfojvt]

120. not compared to other people in the same nation

which is generally where the election takes place.

But perhaps you could find some Canadians to tell that to.

[Ken Burch]

130. So anyone who questions majority opinion or reaction is an elitist?

I'd hate to think what you'd have been saying about abolitionists in 1858-they damn sure weren't a majority in this country then.

Your post is just saying "most people are celebrating...so you HAVE to celebrate, dammit!"

If it weren't for those who dissent, even when it's unpopular to do so...nothing would ever change in this country.

[Cherchez la Femme]

163. With that kind of attitude

"Well, bashing them, or distancing the left from them might help to win some of those election thingies."

Fine. I'll remember that.

Win them all on your own.

It's quite clear the Left is not wanted --nor needed-- in the Democratic Party.


Just don't go complaining and whining when they flee and join a 3rd party,
after what you said, you'd have no right.

[Hannah Bell]

103. +100. you'd think it was fr.

[Bluebear]

178. +++

[Jakes Progress]

38. Sometimes you do wonder about the posts

that tell us how bad liberals and progressives are. Hmmmmm.

[Hobo]

24. Amen Brother Amen

A toast to the death of an evil fucking human.



:toast:

:beer:

Hobo

[sarge43]

25. I'm not celebrating Osama's death, but

I'm pretty sure the world is a better place today. I'm grateful for that.

[Dogmudgeon]

30. I think a lot of it is smugness and superiority

No matter what happens, some (that is, most) people now reflexively try to gain altitude by copping an attitude: "I'm morally above wanting to see OBL dead, I'm too cynical to be deceived, and everybody else is a 'sheeple' except me, since I have the inside track on the ways of this wicked, wicked world".

So of course the world is doomed "... but it's those dumb people who are dooming it, not me! The Idiocrats. The Sheeple. The Darwin Award winners. The Great Unwashed. The booboisie. But not me!

And there's a lot of "tsk, tsk, the world is such a nasty circus! I take solace in being above it all." It's like the lyric in One Night in Bangkok: But thank God I'm only watching the game, controlling it.

They (we) all know exactly what SHOULD have been done in any situation: Bomb a field outside of Hiroshima. File a new complaint with the SCOTUS. To hell with Congress, issue an order. Capture him, don't kill him.

This isn't particular to any particular part of the political spectrum. Most people have copped similar 'tudes, myself included. It's at work when a Jesus-is-a-Republican evangelist says "I'll pray for you". It has become ubiquitous among the intellectual classes, religionizers, and amateur and professional pundits from bloggers to "The Donald". A dominant defense mechanism used by ... the dominant. Because nobody who has access to a computer is one with the Wretched of the Earth. And, of course, it's universal among the rich.

Gloating, smugness, superiority, "I-told-you-so" -- I call it "Abstracted Superiority". It's used by those who want to avoid commitment to action, the risk involved with taking action, and culpability for making an incorrect decision. In other words, most of us.

I challenge us to change all that -- me, most of all.

--d!

[Throd]

39. "Abstracted Superiority" is the coin of the realm for many around here.

I was about to write something similar to your post, but you did a much better job.

[EFerrari]

52. That isn't my experience whatsoever at DU.

In fact, most of my closet friends here are activists.

There is a split but it isn't because the people you disagree with are somehow fake and inactive. It's more likely that some people tend to trust authority where others trust their peers or some learning difference like some people learn more easily from a teacher and others learn better in a group or something like that.

There probably are values we don't share. That doesn't mean they're not real values.

[Vattel]

54. well-said

[NuttyFluffers]

83. Nah, I disagree, that's very much been my experience here on DU.

Even activism has to be analyzed and not all of it stands up to scrutiny. There are those who do make great sacrifice, and accomplish something. And then there are those who, even though they make great sacrifice, end up agitating only through impotent actions, accomplishing nothing. To fail gloriously and project responsibility while at the same time project morality. It's a controlling need to shame and compel others to accomplish goals for them (and sometimes that goal is simply feeling 'better than thou'). There's more than one way to indulge in escapism-based sloth, just as there is more than one way to be passive-aggressive.

Remember, for each of these grave dancing sessions, it took an interruption of "tsk"ing disapproval to start the community acrimony. The more mature, less passive-aggressive response is to either steer clear of such behavior and create a separate space (like a topic not just about criticizing others) to express one's own just as valid feelings. This is basic 'don't be a debbie downer' party etiquette: hang out with those who resonate to your own energy, because pissing on other people's fun is ALWAYS bad form.

That's a very simple and impossible to refute guideline for mature behavior. Don't like the scene, leave. Start your own defined space, not out of negatively criticizing others around you (which is obviously antagonistic and itching for a fight), but from positively expressing what you are feeling (which lets your feelings and boundaries be expressed without denigrating others). This is how experienced and mannered people on the same side deal with the occasional discordant viewpoints and still remain a community.

[EFerrari]

88. So in your "mature" scenario, there is no discussion at DU

only chiming in agreeably?

:)

[NuttyFluffers]

147. that is an extreme interpretation, no? there is discussion and then there's emotional venting.

emotional venting is absolutely the wrong time to engage in discussion. at the height of human irrationality is no place to start debate because there is no calm rationality to work with -- unless you desire to feed the flames and stir acrimony. this is basic observation of human nature during critically emotional times.

[Ken Burch]

137. "other people's FUN"?

OK...you just spoke volumes about yourself there, Fluffers.

[NuttyFluffers]

146. take it as you will, i don't care. but notice, i'm not telling people what to feel.

feelings are personal, and in many ways uncontrollable. the more mature response is to let it be and create your own space.

[Cherchez la Femme]

168. If you're complaining about it

you are telling people what to feel.

Face it.


& you know what? Many people here feel that DU is 'their own space',
those with differing opinions.
ZOMG!
So some are bastards, some are great; both doing the same thing.
Great logic there bub.

[phleshdef]

31. If we had captured him alive, people would be celebrating the same way.

Unfortunately that wasn't possible because he wouldn't stop shooting at our guys and turn himself in. Thems the breaks.

[Cherchez la Femme]

90. Reuters reported he "didn't return fire"

But hey, you keep milking that!
You know what they say: you keep repeating it enough, people will believe it!

[wtmusic]

32. There's an American ex-leader in hiding in a mansion outside Dallasabad

who's responsible for 100x as many innocents dying.

When there isn't a blatant double standard I'll celebrate justice being served.

[BobbyBoring]

77. ME TOO

Justice for all I recall hearing Mr. Obama saying today. FOR ALL!

[EFerrari]

87. An Egyptian media blogger that I've read for months

asked that question this morning.

In all the time I was reading Egyptian twitters during the early part of the revolution, I rarely saw any anti-American posts, even though the US propped up that @sshole Mubarak. This morning was another story and it wasn't because that group is enamored of Bin Laden.

[Hannah Bell]

107. +100. i seem to recall a few other terrorists who've gotten big get out of jail free cards too.

[Ken Burch]

138. True Fucking Dat.

:eyes:

[socialist_n_TN]

33. I'm not particularly a liberal, but I am VERY left..........

And I don't have particularly strong feelings either way about this news. The phrase, "Live by the sword, die by the sword" springs to mind. Violent death, whether by execution, battle, or one to one self defense doesn't thrill me and it doesn't NECESSARILY repulse me either. It all depends on the circumstances and what comes out of it.

Since OBL lived by the sword, it doesn't surprise me that he, figuratively, died by the sword. IF he was behind the NY attacks, karma would certainly suggest that he would probably die violently. Politically, I didn't expect anything less from Obama than to continue the hunt for OBL with the goal of killing him. It made too much sense, even if OBL was no longer any sort of major player in terrorist circles. Revenge is a strong motivation for a lot of people and he had name recognition in the revenge department, so politically it made sense for Obama to go after him.

Now comes the crux IMO. Does the death of OBL lead to the rapid withdrawal of troops from the areas that we invaded ostensibly in search of him? And as the result of that withdrawal and savings financially, will we pursue a more sensible policy toward domestic issues and financing of same?

I guess it boils down to, what good (or bad) will COME from this violent death of someone who was probably DUE a violent death. I won't rejoice and I won't condemn until I see what the ultimate results will be.

[Taverner]

34. I don't know. I look at this with a confused eye

And no, I don't need visine :)

On one hand, I am glad they KILLED Bin Laden. There was no way we could have taken him alive. He wasn't going down like that.

On the other hand, I am a bit embarrassed by the crowds celebrating outside the White House, outside Ground Zero. It's one thing to be glad we dispatched a mass murderer. It's quite another to do a victory dance while the cameras are rolling.

[EFerrari]

36. Isn't this what the right wing says about liberals all the time?

Like when they call consideration for others "political correctness" and an honest assessment of our government "America bashing", they call ethics "victimhood".

I don't feel victimized by my values, thanks.

[Armstead]

37. Eggs Ackley.....This thread sounds like Anne Coulter

[bullwinkle428]

50. Standard-issue Hannity : "ZOMG!!1! WHY IZ OBAMA RUNNING AROUND THE

WORLD, APOLOGIZING FOR EVERYTHING AMERICA HAS EVER DONE??!?"

Spot-on observation.

[martymar64]

81. Thank you for saying that.

[Cherchez la Femme]

93. Why yes. Yes it is.

Them Liberals are "elitist". Dumb "Socialists" full of "smugness" and "superiority".
But this,
THIS perfectly OK, somehow. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

108. Yeah.

It looks like DU split into two main responses, elation and sadness. Some people got a rush over this and for some people, it called up all the other losses. The elated group got pissed because the others were cutting their buzz. The loss group was grossed out by the reveling. This had got to be one of the top ten strangest days at DU because these groups seem to genuinely not understand the other's response. Under all the sniping, people feel a little bit betrayed or something when, it really looks like some kind of hard wired thing that happened.

[JVS]

141. I don't know. I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of people are here because they dislike...

Bush on a personal level but have no problem with his policies, just so long as they are continued by someone with a D after his name.

[Bonobo]

109. BINGO!!! This OP is all the right wing BS internalized and spewed back at us.

It is not a victim complex to hope that we can be better as a civilization, as a culture.

It is not a victim complex to recognize the monster that is inside us and can only be tamed through thinking, through laws.

HINT to those who disagree: When you catch yourself saying the same shit that racist, disgusting Freepers say, it is time to check yourself.

[Ken Burch]

128. Christ, E, have people totally gone off their heads on this site?

Nobody misses Bin Laden, but let's face it, he didn't matter anymore.

This isn't VE Day. Nothing actually even ended. And we're probably going to see a whole new generation of militants spring up now
looking for payback against anybody who even looks American.

Some of the reactions I've seen here on the last two days are horrifying, and delusional.

How can they exist in the same head with a wish for social justice, peace, workers' rights, or any other progressive values?

I feel like we've learned something horrible about a lot of people on this site since Sunday, and it truly grieves me.

[JVS]

139. Yes.

[myrna minx]

133. +1

[Cetacea]

40. Ah, the relentless democratic thirst to eat our own

Comes in all flavours...

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Several answers to your point

To this LIBERAL

The morning of September 11 meant that husband was somewhere in the Western Pacific and we were at war. So I have no joy over this particular death. My joy was the day he walked out of a Navy base a retired man. No more war patrols. Something I can't explain, you got to do this.

As a military commander, by his own designation... he was a damn valid military target... if we got him alive, that be gravy, but war is war.

As to the decline... killing one man don't change any of the trend lines. Some perspective helps

Sorry if I don't join you in the joy department, but to me it was personal, when there were no more war patrols in my husband's future.

[Yavin4]

44. You Are 100% Correct. Then We Wonder Why The Majority of Americans Don't Support Us

Yes, because that's what Americans want running this country, a bunch of depressed victims who can never feel good about anything.

[Armstead]

45. Did you lift that from Hannity? Or was it Rush?

[deutsey]

184. Yep...they prefer Reagan's "morning in America" over Carter's "malaise"

:eyes:

[MadHound]

59. So now that you've got your blods, guts, gore, veins in your teeth,

Now that your bloodlust is up, and you're jumping around yelling "kill, Kill, KILL", you feel free to turn your targeting of your two minute hate from bin Laden to your political allies, liberal.

Stay classy there:eyes:

[The Straight Story]

60. I wonder if DU had been around when hitler/etc died how it would play out here

Blame america for causing the war and propping him up at one time? :shrug:

[Armstead]

61. yeah! You tell those damn liberasls!

God forbid anyone would even criticize any support Hitler might have gotten from American politicians or amoral oligarchs.

Damn anti-war liberals. I hate 'em.

:sarcasm:

[eridani]

115. OMFG! Does that mean that Prescott Bush and his buds were LIBRULS? n/t

[Raine]

96. I'm sure that is exactly what a certain group here would've said. nt

x(

[Bragi]

62. Nuremberg trials = justice, This assassination does NOT

This is simply yet another event in the annals of everyday warfare and state killing.

There is nothing particularly just about it. Or, for that matter, important.

[ItNerd4life]

67. Getting Osama isn't justice? wow, just wow. nt

[defendandprotect]

76. Only if ...

you're gullible enough to think that he had anything to do with 9/11 --

or that attack Afghanistan and/or Iraq had anything to do with 9/11!!

See: Bzezinski -- See PNAC --

[bluestateguy]

69. Oh please

The same people calling for an elaborate trial for OBL are the same people who don't think he's guilty of anything.

They just want a trial as a venue for hating on America and assigning blame for 9/11--with crackpot conspiracy theories--to everybvody except Al Qaeda.

[Bragi]

74. Yep, we be terrists for sure

Otherwise, we would be smearing our faces with blood and chanting U.S.A! U.S.A!

[themadstork]

71. It wasn't an assassination

The sanctimonius would do well to get their facts straight.

[Warren Stupidity]

142. Um - you know that how?

It most likely was an assassination in that it is very likely there was no attempt to capture bin Laden, the intention was to kill him.

[Cherchez la Femme]

149. Definition of Assassination:

"to murder (a usually prominent person) by a sudden and/or secret attack, often for political reasons."

I hate to say bin Laden was "prominent", but being #1 on the FBI's Most Wanted List for over a decade does make him stand out from the average crowd...

[WiffenPoof]

63. I Try And Think About...

...what characterizes our country. I remember how disgusted I was when people in the MIddle East took to the streets to celebrate the 9/11 attacks on the US.

I also think a lot about how my party has changed...become more conservative. There was a time when I was simply considered to be a "Democrat." Now, it appears that I am some sort of "leftist" or "socialist."

What does this have to do with the subject..?

It seems to me that the swing to the Right in our party over the years has helped to change the "character" of our country.

This subject reminds me of the people that gather outside a prison waiting for an execution to take place. They are carrying their signs that read..."Fry Baby" and "Die, You Bastard." Of course, all of the celebrating after the announcement of the death of the prisoner...I sort of found that kind of behavior distasteful at best. I don't know if I can explain why...I just know what I feel.

Of course, it is a good thing that OBL is dead. He needed to be eliminated. And, have no doubt, the celebrating is based on revenge...nothing more. It is just like the death penalty...it is simply revenge.

What characterizes our country? I'm not sure anymore. I suppose revenge comes pretty close.

-PLA

[SpartanDem]

68. Bingo there something that is unequivocally good

and killing the mass murdering fuck head is one of them

[defendandprotect]

75. Liberals as "victims" -- ?

Isn't that a Limbaugh talking point?

There is no proof that OBL had anything to do with 9/11 --

There is every proof, however, that OBL was a CIA operative --


We may have lost 2,300 citizens -- but we've murdered more than 1 million in Iraq!

After ten years of TORTURE and blood and guts - destruction of our military/soldiers --

most of them suffering PTSD -- what is there to celebrate if you think about it?

Re "(c)" -- we can become Regan's "City on a Hill" if we murder enough people and lie enough?


We have 10 years of war profiting elites -- the bankrupting of our Treasury -- the

Patriot Act and loss of much of our Constitutional rights -- and it certainly seems more

like a time to wake up!

[Bluebear]

116. 'Isn't that a Limbaugh talking point?' - MOST CERTAINLY.

[Zorra]

136. Yes. It totally is a Limbaugh talking point. nt

[JoeyT]

82. Unrec for wankery.

"Why do you hate 'Murka?! Why?!?!?!?!" isn't an argument when right wingers do it, and it isn't an argument when anyone else does it.

I'm sorry people are raining on your silly parade of jingoism, but they're right. The cost was too high in the lives of both our troops and innocent people we killed on the way. How many of THOSE do you reckon we killed? More than three thousand?

It's pretty much Bush's fault, but it's still true.

Edited to add: I'm glad he's dead, by the way. I just think there are MUCH better things we could have spent that money on. We'd have saved a lot more lives than 3000 if we'd used it to give free health care and food to the poor. How glad I am that he's dead depends on how much money we waste fucking around over there now that we've got another "Mission Accomplished".

[Armstead]

85. Wankery is a perfect word for it

[TheKentuckian]

86. Feel good for what? What is different for us than yesterday?

I'm glad that piece is off the board but I don't get the ecstasy. He can't possibly be operationally critical at this point. They almost have to be organized in cells all over the globe.

I don't know what we won or haven't absorbed it yet. There is a vibe not unlike celebrating in the middle of the field after a score that leaves you down four or five touchdowns.

[Bluebear]

92. Flagellate you. nt

[joshcryer]

94. It's basically a new version of white guilt.

Call it progressive guilt, if you will. The US is the worst creation on the planet, all the worlds problems are due to the US, etc.

Me? I don't give a shit one way or another because I didn't do shit to anyone, I personally, my "complicity" is so utterly irrelevant and insignificant that it is a joke of epic proportions.

I'm also a white male, which gives me the privilege of not giving a shit. Somehow other groups are far better at falling into this cycle of hand wringing over shit.

[Raine]

99. Good point, I think you're on to something

we go thru this everytime America does anything, continual hand wringing, nashing of teeth, woe is me. Same old, same old.

[joshcryer]

112. And it's hilarious because no one is really responsible for either the shitty or the good.

If you want purity write your fucking representative and tell them, lay it out, where you stand. Pow, new version of absolvement of sins. You told 'em where you stand, if they go and vote a certain way that results in something you don't like happening, it ain't "on you." Zero complicity.

The world would actually be a better place if people were directly responsible for their actions, direct democracy. Yeah, you are a liberal, and you don't want the world to fight over trivialities? Then fucking own up to it. But alas, our democracy is not like that, nor is any democracy in the world.

So we should place the blame where it really is. In the hands of the megacorps, in the hands of the politicians, in the hands of the investors to lobbyist for both. But nope, we chose to blame ourselves because we're naive in our ability to truly affect change, which of course is how the megacorps want it to be. They want us to continue hand wringing and to keep failing to get shit done. And we've only gotten better at it.

[Armstead]

150. I hope you just forgot the sarcasm thingy on this post

If not.....Well it sounds just like a conservative talk show host

[LostInAnomie]

100. + 1. Far too many on here...

... are too busy feverishly masturbating and self-fellating to their own "moral superiority". While fucking themselves is a fine idea, "moral superiority" isn't the reason they should do it.

[Cherchez la Femme]

151. Where has anyone said they're "superior"?

Where?

You've got some serious problems if you think that people who disagree with you are 'superior', or that you even believe 'they think they are'
Freud would find that very interesting, any road...

[FLAprogressive]

106. Can't stand it about conservatives either.

[quinnox]

110. lol, how many threads that bash liberals are going to be posted

This is the second thread with a lot of replies I have read that is bashing liberals with the usual crowd cheering it on.

Ok, you guys hate the liberals, you have that in common with the right wingers. Is that really something to be proud of?

I'm getting tired of reading stuff like this that belongs on free republic or a right wing site to be honest!

Why are these threads not locked? Is it open season on the "dirty commie traitor" liberals at DU??

[Cherchez la Femme]

152. I saw a thread locked

because someone replied to another 'don't let the Circle-D's hear you say that' (to that effect, if not verbatim)

THAT was 'calling members out'.

This? This is PERFECTLY O-K! :patriot: :puke:


I've been holding off donating until the homophobia here was addressed and a plan put in place & implemented. Other than some (recent) Talk (is cheap), nothing I see has changed
although they did finally ban some of the worst homophobes who made it their mission to visit the LGBT forum regularly and bash.


If this "Progressive site" is now going after Progressives? Jeebus.

Oh well, I get to donate that money to something that actually practices what they preach -- no kill animals shelters, for one.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. I so do appreciate our would-be Ghandis taking this "opportunity to enlighten" the rest of us...

Especially the ones who, a couple weeks ago, couldn't contain their bloodlust and gloating over a 'self-righteous non smoker' who got stabbed in the face with a pen on a NY subway.


:crazy: :rofl:

Ahem.

[joshcryer]

114. Or those almost weeping over the presumed death of a known lying tyrants kid.

[Cherchez la Femme]

153. I searched your quotation on DU

strangely, nowhere did I see anyone talking about anyone here having the "opportunity to enlighten" anyone else about bin Laden's death.


Kindly supply the link to which your quote refers

...surely you're not making anything up, are you?

[Warren DeMontague]

161. Nope.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1019478&mesg_id=1020263

[Cherchez la Femme]

167. Your quote is NOT in there

you quoted "opportunity to enlighten"

"Enlightening" was in the title of the post:

"Not faulting them doesn't mean not enlightening them, as MLK...tried to do."

Is the exact quote. (Edited to include blockquotes)
Which they went on to quote MLK. So, you're trying to denigrate Dr. Martin Luther King as a "would-be Gandhi"! OOOOOOH, Snap! Amirite?

Wow. Just wow.
You are a bad joke :rofl:



--but anyhow, where is your quote?


You quoted -- as in you know: somebody said, verbatim.


So where is it?

[Warren DeMontague]

173. Pfft. Nice try. Poster clearly was suggesting that SHE was doing the "enlightening".

The only word that isn't in there is "opportunity". The intent of the post is exactly the same.

It's clearly the point of the post; that the poster- not MLK- feels entitled to enlighten the rest of us, those of us not transcendent enough to be appropriately weepy over Bin Laden's death.

If you need me to, I'll be happy to link to the other thread, too. Because the unintentional hypocrisy is just mind-boggling, speaking of bad jokes. Yes, we should all adopt MLK like turn-the-cheek understanding to the guy who sent over 3,000 innocent Americans to a nasty death, including driving many of them to jump out of a burning skyscraper... but self-righteous non-smokers on the subway who tell someone not to light up? Fuck 'em, they should expect to be stabbed in the face with a pen.




I'm not sure what makes you feel entitled to stomp your feet and demand all sorts of shit from me. You want to have a temper tantrum over... something, clearly. But I honestly don't know what's got your shorts in such a giant wad, here - are you really that distressed by the news that he's not alive anymore?

[Cherchez la Femme]

176. BS A quote is a quote. Period

Otherwise it's all conflation.

If you make a specific contention, be prepared to quote your source. Put things in quotes only if it's exactly what who you're quoting actually said -- not your interpretation.

It's not rocket surgery.

"Stomp my feet and demand..."? :rofl:
ZOMG who's being childish? You're caught conflating so you then try to change the subject by attacking me on something I've never said nor even round-about mentioned?! Lookee bubba, you want to post things on the interweb, you want to make contentions backed up with your proof

you want to put people's words in quotes as supporting your position

then YOU be a grown-up and defend your contentions and supply your sources.

[Warren DeMontague]

177. No, actually, not "period". Quotation marks can also be used to paraphrase, summarize or convey tone

i.e. sarcasm.

Of course, if French and not English is your first language, you can be "forgiven" for not knowing that.

[Cherchez la Femme]

185. You're embarassing yourself

Button up the pie hole, invest in a Manual of Style, and read it. :eyes:

[eridani]

117. Them goddam libruls invited OBL and his girls' school burning buds--

--into Afghanistan in the 80s and gave him Stinger missiles and verything. That's because they are elitists who have contempt all the ordinary folks who thought that was a bad idea.

Oh, wait..........

[eridani]

118. And always remember --

--Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Those who keep insisting that last week we were at war with Eurasia are just elitist librul snobs who think they're better than the average prople in Oceania.

[foreigncorrespondent]

121. That "unrelenting victim mentality"...

... is exactly what you did in your opening statement:

We lost 3,000 citizens

In actual fact you lost 2671 citizens. There was also 327 foreign nationals killed, and then the 19 terrorists themselves on top of that.

we had to kill him

Well, until the actual proof is shown it really is just hearsay isn't it? But regardless, don't you think the countries of the 327 foreign nationals killed deserve a say in this? Like, whether they would like to see him executed gun slinger style, or face a damn trial first?

[Cherchez la Femme]

154. That's the thing

it COULD have been absolutely proved in a court of law.
Didn't even have to be a U.S. court! Any country that lost a citizen in the 9/11 attacks could have tried him.
Plus there is the International Court.

Now, and along with that 'burial at sea', we've set it up so that many Conspiracy Theories can (and will) pop up;
and plowed the field for yet more to make a martyr out of bin Laden.


For what it's worth: I think he's evil, that he did all --and more-- of what he's accused of
but I would have loved to see it all brought out, with corroborating evidence, in a court of law!

[foreigncorrespondent]

162. Oh I agree with you...

...don't get me wrong... OBL wasn't on my Christmas mailing list. I think he is/was a disgusting human being, and those innocent people who were killed on 9/11 deserved justice for their deaths. But we have been told far too many times that the man was dead, only to receive one of his "video messages" or something else weeks later.

On top of that, I am not comfortable with all the grave dancing that is happening, either. The man will be martyred and we are all in for shit as a result. I think people are celebrating just a little too soon, and need to take a step back and breathe. Then they can start thinking clearly about what may just happen now as a result.

[Ken Burch]

122. Is there any reason we should WANT the "decline" narrative to change?

A rising, expansion-minded America can't be a progressive force in the world.

We need to teach this country to have a humble, non-arrogant outlook to life. A "rising" nation can't possibly have that. "Rising" inevitably makes a nation's leaders think they're wearing togas.

[Ken Burch]

124. Uh dude, you do know that "call-out" threads against other DU'ers are against forum rules, right?

Alerted on this shit.

[Cherchez la Femme]

156. Save your breath, Ken

obviously, that ain't gonna happen.


I guess it's fine that, on this Progressive site, Progressives are trashed
with impunity.

Go figure.

[AngryOldDem]

134. Recced.

That's one of the reasons why I'm coming here less often these days -- the pervailing attitude that because the world sucks, we can't have any kind of happiness, pleasure, or diversion.

Fuck that.

[Ken Burch]

135. By you, this is a "diversion"?

And NOBODY has said "we can't have any kind" or happiness or pleasure. You can have happiness or pleasure WITHOUT going to the "USA!USA!" zone.

[Cherchez la Femme]

157. WHY do you hate America?

Why, Ken, Why?? :cry:

[Ken Burch]

172. Well...America killed my dog....

I don't like to talk about it, but...well...

[Warren Stupidity]

143. I reject the proto-fascist death cult culture in all of its manifestations.

You want to do your death dance in the streets? Have a nice day, but perhaps you might want to look around at your fellow celebrants.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ganja Ninja]

145. I agree.

Hunting down and killing a cold blooded mass murderer is a good thing. For those who don't agree I suggest you consider the possibility that you or your loved ones might have been his victims at some point in the future. Now that's not possible.

[EFerrari]

155. Some people's first response isn't "is this good or bad"

but "what does this mean". Everyone isn't you.

And there is actually a higher risk today than there was before bin Laden was killed.

[mountainlion55]

148. I'm a progressive and

I get depressed every tuesday morning on my walk by my old high school and see all the kids wearing ROTC uniforms and junior ceo outfits. Future leaders of the vampire banksters and the MIC. So yeah I feel real bad about my country all the time. All this usa no.1 bullshit is just that-- bullshit! IMO our foreign policy is truly pathetic! :smoke:

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[myrna minx]

159. Thank god Rush Limbaugh's views on liberals are finally getting some exposure here.

How about you send all of those liberals back to Russia!

[Bluebear]

169. You said it! Damn commies!

:silly:

[timesup]

160. Sorry to inform you:

I am very happy about this death and I'll counter you, that it's rather obvious that:

Repubs LOVE labels, and screaming and yelling over everyone else's opinions, epic fail on both counts in the LONG run, IMHO.

[hulka38]

166. "shooting directly at us at the time of his capture"

Hasn't this been refudiated by the WH. If he was unarmed, then why is it that we, as you say, "had to kill him". I believe the SEAL team was ordered to kill him and not to capture him even if OBL was unarmed and cooperative. I believe the intelligence they could get from OBL would not be worth the fallout of his detainment and trial. Can you imagine the scrutiny our justice system would be subjected to while under the watchful gaze of the world? Can you imagine OBL being allowed to speak freely in his defense in a U.S. courtroom with the whole World watching. I can't. There's no way that would be allowed to happen. No way.
Liberals by and large are interested in the truth and have learned from experience not to believe the official story from the government out of hand.

America's lengthy decline is due primarily to economic issues such as ever growing trade deficits, debt, stupid tax cuts and unnecessary wars, crumbling infrastructure, declining education, unabated white collar crime, and overall cluelessness of the American public. How is the death of OBL going to change this?

[whatchamacallit]

170. Why is this shit uber-callout thread allowed to continue? (nt)

[Cherchez la Femme]

171. I don't know but it says a lot about DU, doesn't it?

[whatchamacallit]

175. I guess it's a reflection of our new Post 9/11 world

no place for ideals...

[Exilednight]

174. Rush Limbaugh and company use the same talking points. Sure you're on the right site? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

179. yeah, well, what *i* hate about "some" liberals is that they're ok with violating international law

to do targeted assassinations, but they want to lock you up for daring to smoke within a mile of them, outdoors.

iow, they're upper-middle-class conservatives.

[Bonobo]

182. ROFLMAO!

"but they want to lock you up for daring to smoke within a mile of them, outdoors."

That deserves some kind of award for elegance, economy and truth.

[inna]

180. lol, what a TOTAL flamebait. well done, i guess.

[deutsey]

183. I can't stand that trait either, but I also am not "feeling good" about what happened

I'm not saddened by bin Laden's death, but I'm not celebrating it, either. I'm sorry if you can't understand or deal with that ambiguity.

BTW, apparently bin Laden was not "shooting directly at us at the time of his capture," according to the White House. I'm also not clear on how his death is somehow going to "change the narrative that America is in irreversible decline." Again, I don't feel any remorse that he's dead, but how exactly is that going to reverse the disastrous consequences of two or three wars and a piggish ruling oligarchy that's bankrupting our country and reducing us to a new form of feudalism with its draconian "austerity" measures?

Regarding the "victim mentality," though, I've always loved the National Lampoon song, "Middle-Class Liberal Well-Intentioned Blues."