This Is Why A Majority of Americans Don't Support Liberals/Progressives

[Yavin4]

How is it that Liberals/Progressives who's stance on issues are in line with a majority of Americans cannot translate their position into elected majorities across the nation? How?

Just read the littany of hand-wringing posts about the death of Bin Laden. Read how so many of us either don't believe that he's dead, or is upset that he wasn't brought to trial, etc.

This need to feel sanctimonius at all times, this need to feel morally superior, this need to reject ANY connection with your fellow citizen's joy over the death of a man that killed thousands of innocent people all over the world, this need to feel above your fellow Americans is what dooms the entire Liberal/Progressive agenda.

I'm glad that Osama Bin Laden is dead. I'm glad that we killed him. He was engaging in war fare against the U.S., and his tactic was targeting and killing innocent people. He was engaging in this war fare even before 9/11. Killing him was the right and correct course of action.

[dionysus]

1. +1

[sufrommich]

2. Thank God most liberal democrats don't really agree with much

of anything that DU's holy leftists spew.

[Dawgs]

8. They're not liberals if agree with war, tax cuts for the rich, CEO/lobbyist administration, etc..?

Nice try though.

[treestar]

121. "agree with war?"

Depends on the war. Most Americans agreed with the Afghan war.

[tekisui]

148. Most don't anymore. Even less will now.

[Kurovski]

184. +1

true is true.

[Dawgs]

336. Americans? I thought we were talking about liberals.

You're not a liberal if you agree with any war. Calling yourself one doesn't make you one.

[dawg]

343. War is sometimes necessary.

All liberals are not pacifists.

[valerief]

3. I thought the issue was did he die last week or years ago, not is he dead.

I think DU believes he's dead.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[villager]

4. How unAmerican to have divergent opinions about anything!

Why, those liberals oughtta be investigated and pilloried, I tell ya!

[Scurrilous]

5. Rahm Emanuel was right.

:P

[rfranklin]

Yes, he's so right he's a corporate Republican...

He's a political operative without values who will sell his soul and yours for campaign contributions.

[bluestate10]

151. Emanuel used one term that was inappropriate, but sans that, he was

right on. I often read post by progressives and the first thing that comes to mind is "wtf??". The lack of perspective among progressives is astounding.

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Le Taz Hot]

333. Yes he was.

WAAAAYYYYY right, but Nader was correct. :P

[Warren Stupidity]

6. I don't celebrate death. Any death.

I have no problem with killing Osama. I just refuse to celebrate it.

[AnOhioan]

14. +1

[socialist_n_TN]

21. BINGO! That is EXACTLY my feeling in the matter..........

I'm going to be looking for positive outcomes in this death. I'll celebrate those, not the death itself. That doesn't mean I have a problem with OBL death the way it happened. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[JuniperLea]

32. Me too... but I'll take it further still...

I am not going to chastise another for their feelings on this. People have been through hell. If they want to celebrate, it's their business just as their feelings are their own business.

What I really hate is the sanctimonious assholery here wherein people are telling other people how to feel.

[marions ghost]

90. But "hell" is not over...

:shrug:

The embracing of the delusion that the OBL carcass means anything is what worries me. He's planted his evil seeds and so have Bush/Cheney.

Nothing is over.

[smirkymonkey]

139. Winner.

I don't know why we're all arguing over it so much when, at this point, it really doesn't matter anymore. At least not as far as the future is concerned.

[sabrina 1]

116. Well said. Sad that some people would prefer the far right way

of cheering and celebrating death. I remember when their bloodlust was opposed by democrats. Now, it appears we have become what we most despised, at least some of us have.

My Republican SIL told me this morning that she cannot 'feel' the joy some people, including her husband, are expressing and wondered if something was wrong with her. I was glad she felt the way she did and she is no 'bleeding heart liberal', just a decent human being who shudders to see Americans acting like the people they condemn.

[LiberalAndProud]

Refuse.

I *want* to feel celebratory. I *want* to share in the sense that justice has been served. I really do...
But I don't. It would seem that I can't. I feel no joy, no sense of accomplishment. Just a heavy and pervasive sense that this is an empty act of retribution. OBL would have died sooner or later. Obama saw to it that it was sooner. The wars go on.

It isn't that I refuse to celebrate. It's just who I am, I guess.

[demmiblue]

332. +1 n/t

[MilesColtrane]

7. The need to feel sanctimonious or to feel morally superior is a trait of all humans.

...of which, Liberals and Progressives are but one subset

[IsItJustMe]

20. I think it's called projecting. I could be wrong though.

[UTUSN]

9. K&R #5 n/t

[WilliamPitt]

10. DU is not reality

Yankees suck.

;)

[Yavin4]

19. Can Someone Translate this Post?

I don't speak "last place".

[WilliamPitt]

24. ...ouch...

[Lucky Luciano]

94. Yea that one left a mark! nt

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

11. You sure do know a lot about the "needs" of people who disagree with you. n/t

[backscatter712]

12. I posted an honest thread last night saying "Fuck it, I'm celebrating"

Yeah, I got hit with the sanctimony brigade too.

I don't care. OBL's death is something to celebrate. Hate and revulsion are normal human emotions, and I felt like blowing off some steam. I don't care if some twit thinks I'm "not a true progressive".

[regnaD kciN]

46. "Hate and revulsion are normal human emotions"...

Therefore, you should not be the least bit surprised or upset when those on the right have hate and revulsion for your very existence.

[Amonester]

354. Should I conclude that you don't have hate and revulsion for.....

the very existence of those on the right?


(I admit I have revulsion, but not hate, well not to the point of ..., although when they start pulling triggers, I don't know if it's hate or not....).

[Hissyspit]

13. Bullshit.

That is not "why a majority of Americans don't support liberals and progressives."

[Rambis]

15. We backed him to fight the Russians

The US does this all the time and it comes back to bite us in the ass. We never learn- I think the death of bin laden will create hundreds if not thousands more terrorists.
:mad:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Absolutely

Some shit is just right, and the majority of people generally know it when they see it.

[Azathoth]

18. Yup n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. If they're young liberals, I can understand the disconnect.

They're still in the abstract stage. Older liberals, nope. No excuse.

[bluestate10]

152. Some of the worst are old stoners. nt

[Kurovski]

185. I think the worst are the ones with religious convictions.

:sarcasm:

[Le Taz Hot]

334. 'Scuze me?

:wtf:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[regnaD kciN]

47. +1000

[Zhade]

110. FUCKING. PWNED.

Well-played.

[dana_b]

130. clearly stated.

thanks!

[KoKo]

173. +1

[coalition_unwilling]

192. Small point, but Huck Finn is maybe the first American literary hero, resolving to free his

friend, the slave Jim, from captivity even if Huck goes to hell for doing so.

Think you might mean instead Tom Sawyer who also had a naughty-boy adorableness but without Huck's redeeming and transcendant qualities.

Otherwise, I'm with you. I'm sick of the atavistic jingoism so prevalent here lately these past couple days and the crass appeals to vigilantism and realpolitik (might makes right).

[Wind Dancer]

212. Well said!

Thank you!

[Name removed]

324. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

25. Opinions are like assholes...

this is not exclusive to any one political faction.

[freshwest]

26. Thanks for delivering the freeper talking points.

[Appenzell Wars]

33. I pretty sure Amy Goodman was delivering them this morning

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1011670

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/2/one_killer_killing_another_journalist_and

[EFerrari]

38. LOL. Omg! Amy FREAKING Goodman is a closet freeper?

:rofl:

[Appenzell Wars]

43. Well she certainly is enabling them this morning no?

She reminds me of the school administrators who ban American Flags on Cinco de Mayo (An American holiday mind you). There is no need to feed the animals with pathetic knee-jerk handwringing bloody shirts to wave around.

[EFerrari]

50. The information and analysis on this morning's program

will be the best anywhere for at least a week. You must have watched some other Amy Goodman.

And, btw, the Battle of Puebla is celebrated in Mexico.

[JackRiddler]

89. Goodman's show was top notch as usual.

[freshwest]

65. Whoa. Who are you calling animals, exactly and what are you talking about?

[Appenzell Wars]

79. The animals are teabaggers and thier ilk that will take a few

handwringing quotes from the democracy now piece above and paint us all with it ("One Killer Killing Another")

Really is it helpful to equate our president with a terrorist madman and yet that is exactly what Democracy Now did this morning.

Here is the piece in question. http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/2/one_killer_killing_another_journalist_and

[KoKo]

176. Ahh...I see where you are coming from now...from that other place.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

241. The comparison was between the United States killing civilians

and Al Qaida killing civilians. The fact is those drones this administration uses kills a majority of CIVILIANS, not terrorists or insurgents. You may not like it but it happens to be true.

Our government is not a "terrorist madman" and left AQ in the dirt long ago with the number of civilians casualties it has inflicted. What is their excuse?

[BobbyBoring]

58. I wish they were only freeper talking points

I see the chest thumping on here today I would expect from freepers.

[freshwest]

It seems the OP has forgotten the Kochroach media's part in creating negative opinion.

[bluestate10]

153. I feel the same as the OP. I am a socially conscious moderate. nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. You can be an anti imperialist pacifist and still understand

Bin Ladin had it coming to him. Live by the sword and all of that...

When a Man eating Tiger gets tracked down and killed by villagers in India, they celebrate. A few may think it's a shame it had to be that way, Tigers are rare, Tigers are beautiful, but no one would be upset by the celebration that erupts in the villages where victims lived.

[TomClash]

28. I'm sure this is why we don't have single payer

People on DU didn't cheer hard enough when bin Laden's death was announced. :eyes:

[Armstead]

29. Thank you Mr. Limbaugh for putting those America -Hating Liberals in their place

The ones I reallllly hate are those jackasses who whined about us going into Iraq. Those Sadaam-loving weenies.

Liberals just want to sip their lattes and bash America....They're not REAL Americans.

:sarcasm:

[Le Taz Hot]

337. +1

[cliffordu]

30. K&R!!!!

[Hissyspit]

34. Why?

It's nonsense.

First off, what is this "majority of Americans don't support progressives and liberals?" That depends on how you define all most every word of the phrase. Second, if it is true, it would be because of the power of fear and ignorance and how well the right manipulates these things, not because we are nuanced and rational in our thinking.

[cliffordu]

61. Rule by the most sensitive.

That's why - Anyone who's sensitive feelings or moral high ground is ruffled and snivels and complains until they get the attention they so desperately need.

I go to a dance thingy every once in a while and invariably there is one particular person who JUST HAS to remind everyone that she is sensitive to ANY kind of perfume or smell created by fabric softeners and wants the 20 or so people there to NOT wear anything with perfume in it.

So we acquiesce to her 'need' to be the most sensitive.

I want to tell her to start her own fragrance free dance thingy, but it isn't worth the effort.

[Kurovski]

169. Why can't people smoke in a bar? It's hardly worth getting drunk any more.

Being drunk is how I can tolerate Liz Taylor's "Diamonds" for a night. It's worth it to be able to get out of the house, and it just blends in with a hangover. :D

She should suck it up or stay home. That's what I do. And I can pop hydrocodone the next day.

[Kurovski]

186. Legal Disclaimer: I mostly stay home.

[JuniperLea]

31. There are even OP's chastising others for their feelings...

Because they are happy to see an end to this. Mind you, I'm not grave dancing and I hate seeing any human being murdered, but there are many people in the US who have been put through hell because of what this one man did, and if they want to celebrate his death, I have no right to say otherwise.

Sanctimonious is the perfect word. I'm sick of seeing others put down for their feelings. The hypocrisy is appalling.

[Pamela Troy]

35. And I'm sick of seeing others put down for their decency.

Please explain how my not joining in with the celebrations qualifies as "hypocrisy."

[JuniperLea]

41. I never said that...

And I'm not going to argue over your failure to read for comprehension.

[Pamela Troy]

48. My reading comprehension is fine, thanks.

You attacked those of us who are asking serious questions rather than cheering and waving flags as "sanctimonious asses."

[JuniperLea]

52. Bullshit

That's a stupid comment. Perhaps you should read your own post and edit.

[Pamela Troy]

55. Perhaps you could explain how

I qualify as a hypocrite.

[Forkboy]

351. I think the poster has a pretty good handle on it.

[brooklynite]

42. This issue isn't "why don't you join in"...you don't have to

The issue is "why are the people who DO join in so callous/blood-thirsty/war-mongering"? which is a discussion point I've seen with annoying frequency.

[Pamela Troy]

51. This OP calls those of us who have said

we'd rather he was captured alive and brought to trial as "sanctimonious asses."

[cottonseed]

72. It's a smug decency. A kind of decency I find that has no real worth.

[Pamela Troy]

80. Actually, it's the height of smugness to treat

something like this as if it were a football win -- and even more smug to denounce those of us who don't join in and who in fact have some serious questions.

[WildEyedLiberal]

129. No one's making the "football win" analogy besides you and your ilk

And it's rather the height of smugness to reduce other people's honest reactions to the death of a mass murderer to "cheering at a football win." Yes, you have "serious questions," unlike the unthinking horde who are mindlessly cheering at a football game.

Tell me again how you're not smug?

[Pamela Troy]

209. We're not the ones pumping our fists in the air and chanting

"U - S - A! U -S - A!" as if the US had just one some Olympic sporting event.

No, I'm not smug. Just kind of disgusted.

[WildEyedLiberal]

222. "Disgusted"

Sounds like a smug reaction to me. It's certainly a judgmental one, and judgment and smugness very frequently go hand in hand.

[Pamela Troy]

224. Celebrating someone's death

is the height of smug judgmentalism.

[WildEyedLiberal]

228. I don't think you understand what "smug" means

Of course it's judgmental, but "smug" implies a sense of moral or ethical righteousness or superiority; the sense that in making said judgment, you are a better person than those who feel differently. I get no sense that those who are happy that OBL is dead think themselves morally superior to anyone, except for perhaps OBL himself - and, really, I think we can all go out on a limb and say that we're better people than OBL. But being glad he's dead doesn't in and of itself mean that they think they're superior to those who aren't glad he's dead. However, those who are not glad he's dead have wasted little time and bandwidth in loudly proclaiming how "disgusting" it is that there are those who feel differently. That's the textbook definition of "smug."

[Pamela Troy]

232. This isn't just about feelings. It's about acts.

And yes, we are all entitled to pass some judgement on the way each other act. Some people think their feelings entitle them to pick their noses in public. Saying that sight is disgusting hardly qualifies as "smug." Some people thought their feelings about the death of liberal activist Kirsten Brydum made them entitled to post offensive and disgusting jokes about it online, and pronounce themselves amused. Was it "smug" to object to this? And if it's "smug" for me to object to people treating bin Laden's death as if it were a sports event, isn't it "smug" of you to object to my objecting?

[WildEyedLiberal]

347. I am not disgusted by your actions, nor do I think I'm a better person than you

You're entitled to your opinions - I just think that your willingness to sit in judgment of so many others says far more about you than it does about them. I do think it's disingenuous to compare the reactions to the death of a liberal activist, with whom I am unfamiliar but I assume she was an innocent person who did not harm people and who worked for the greater good, to the reactions to the death of Osama Bin Laden, a mass murdering bigoted terrorist. If you really want to draw an analogy between the two, that's your business, but yes, I find that there is much more room for judgment in finding joy in the death of the former (an innocent) than the latter (a killer).

[JTFrog]

317. So, this is what you call decent?

Putting on smug airs and calling other DU'ers disgusting?

Awesome. :thumbsup:

:eyes:

[ScreamingMeemie]

155. OMG...totally THIS^^^^^^^THIS THIS THIS!

[Pamela Troy]

210. Uh...Do you want to be alone for a few minutes?

You seem to be having some kind of excited spasm or...something. It's kind of embarrassing to watch, frankly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

217. Then don't watch. :)

Join your friend, and use your ignore option. Also, don't forget to have a good night.

[Pamela Troy]

218. Be sure to wash your hands afterwards.

[ScreamingMeemie]

225. No need when I am just agreeing with a fellow poster.

But you illustrate his/her point beautifully. Take care now.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

229. Actually my daughter and I are talking about what she needs to move back up to Ohio.

Are you okay????

[Pamela Troy]

233. I'm not the one sputtering OMGs like a machine gun.

[ScreamingMeemie]

234. One OMG equals a machine gun?...and please find the Coulter link

because I don't even know you. I think it's time for that nap for you. Because people disagree it is not necessary to be rude and insulting. You are exactly what it is that you thought you were arguing against. :)

[Pamela Troy]

236. Just posted it.

And no, I'd never celebrate because someone -- even someone I hated -- died.

[ScreamingMeemie]

240. I'm not celebrating but I'm allowing others their celebration, without

judgement. He was a murderer, I'm not sorry to see him dead, I am also not going to yell at those who have found a bit more closure and happiness out of this. And thanks for posting the link. It clarifies what was really said. I don't find Coulter to be satirical at all. That was a conversation with a cousin of mine.

[Pamela Troy]

245. Do you like Ann Coulter?

[ScreamingMeemie]

247. It appears that you do.

:shrug: You are the one who brought her up, no?

[Pamela Troy]

248. No, I don't. Her callousness disgusts me.

She comes across as the kind of person who'd give high fives at the funeral of someone she considered her enemy.

[ScreamingMeemie]

251. Your callousness with the treatment of posters you disagree with

is reminiscent, your desire to throw the thread off topic amazing, your inability to see that there are varied (and reasonable) responses to what has happened in the past day typical of another day at DU. Where we are known best for being cruelest to each other.

[Pamela Troy]

252. Have I ridiculed the personal tragedy of someone here?

Have I fist-pumped a death and celebrated it?

[ScreamingMeemie]

256. You have been rude and condescending throughout this entire thread.

Have I fist pumped this death? No. Have I realized that people are going to have different and varied reactions to this news and that I have no control over that? Yes.

On the face of it, your "orgasmic" comments made me smile, as I folded socks and tried to roll as many items of clothing into a carry on travel bag as I could, but that didn't mean they were nice, did it? And they certainly did not pertain to the conversation at hand. (I said hand...lol) The juxtaposition of masturbation as I went about the exhausting tasks of running a household made me smile. As if I had time...

[Pamela Troy]

260. Look, when I see this kind of behavior from freepers, I speak

up about it. I'm not going to shut up when I see the same behavior from people who are closer to me politically. When we see video of people in the middle east cheering because someone they hate politically has been killed by one of their own strongman, we consider it a sign of barbarity. It's no less a sign of barbarity when we do it.

And yes, I'm going to say so.

[ScreamingMeemie]

263. ...and also attack others over it. People have long memories.

Many people will never be the same after the events of Sept. 11, 2001. While it is not my reaction I do understand the reaction in my fellow Dems. I liken it to knowing that (even though I like to think I wouldn't), if someone were to harm or kill one of my children, I would have no problem seeing them dead and would celebrate that death. Would that I could forgive that person but I know, in my heart that I wouldn't. That is what I liken it to for some.

[Pamela Troy]

265. If I'm labeled "smug" for criticizing behavior here

that would be denounced here in a freeper or a middle eastern extremist, yes, I'm going to answer back.

[ScreamingMeemie]

266. It is smug. And I was responding to that poster, about the behavior

of so many, who would sit in judgment. That part reminds me of Christian RWingers. They sit on high and think it gives them a license to judge others. This is far less than freeper behavior. This is varied reactions from a nation (left and right) that went through a horrendous experience together...

[Pamela Troy]

270. I have as much right here to "judge" others as you do, as

much right as the person who wrote the OP you were so enthused about.

[ScreamingMeemie]

274. Yes you do. But I don't consider a commentary on masturbation and

what you suppose I am doing, or not doing, to be even close to a judgment. Do you? It had nothing to do with the thread and was strictly posted out of anger.

[Pamela Troy]

278. Indeed it was, and for that I apologize.

[ScreamingMeemie]

282. I apologize for inferring that you were not raised properly. I am sure

your parents did a fine job. After all, you are a Dem. I hope you have a good night Pamela.

[JTFrog]

318. Yep, real decent.

This thread is now loaded with decency. And the lack of smug is WIN!

:eyes:

[Pamela Troy]

220. You know, you told me once here at DU that you didn't "get" Coulter's "satire."

Actually you do. You sound a lot like her in this thread.

[ScreamingMeemie]

227. Link please? I don't comment on Coulter much.

I'd be interested to see it. In fact I haven't been on DU, except for sporadically, for the past 4 years, and not much with this user name at all. You've got me very curious. Before today, I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours...unless you too have changed your name. So, if you're going to accuse, please give us a link. I sound a lot like someone who, while not waving flags and dancing in the streets, is questioning the attitudes of DUers towards each other on this one. At least a reasonable person would be able to see that.

[Pamela Troy]

235. Number 90 in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1398853

Have you changed your mind about her and become a fan?

[ScreamingMeemie]

237. Ahhh..."Just the other day I was told I didn't "get" Coulter's satire..."

Big difference there, hmmm? Let's post the whole thing:



Just the other day I was told I didn't "get" Coulter's satire...
In any case, I don't think I want to. After all, she doesn't "really mean it"...


Thanks for pointing that thread out to me. :hi:

[Pamela Troy]

239. Sorry don't see the difference.

Had I misunderstood you? Were you expressing approval for her "satire?"

[ScreamingMeemie]

242. I do.

:shrug:

[Pamela Troy]

243. And it is...?

[ScreamingMeemie]

246. See below.

:)

[bluestate10]

159. Decency comes in other political stripes too. One big problem that

I have with progressives is their assumption that only they can feel empathy. I am glad that Bin laden is dead and I am glad that our troops killed him. It is important to me that the last thing Bin Laden saw was american flags on the chests of the men that brought him to justice. I have always been proud to have been born in the USA and I apologize to no one for that. Even with my increasing distaste for progressives, relax, I have infinite more distaste for conservatives and any republican.

[Pamela Troy]

213. Indeed it does. I've known conservatives who are just as

repulsed by the fist-pumping high fives over someone's death as liberals are.

[Union Scribe]

200. "Decency" doesn't come with high-handed judgements about other posters.

[Pamela Troy]

211. It sure as hell doesn't come with treating a death,

even the death of an evil man, as if someone just scored a touchdown.

[Union Scribe]

249. We get it. You're a better person than everyone else.

You're the very portrait of liberal virtue and blah blah blah. Maybe you could be self-satisfied more...quietly?

[Pamela Troy]

250. Does objecting to someone's actions mean you

think "you're a better person than everyone else?"

[ScreamingMeemie]

230. This poster wasn't raised to know decency...as her posts above this show.

Instead of debating the issue, she resorts to personal attacks.

[Pamela Troy]

238. Did you find the link?

[ScreamingMeemie]

244. You linked it, no? And I appreciate it. Let's look at it here is what you said:

"You know, you told me once here at DU that you didn't "get" Coulter's "satire.""


This is what was actually posted:

Just the other day I was told I didn't "get" Coulter's satire...
In any case, I don't think I want to. After all, she doesn't "really mean it"...

Now, as you misquoted it, it would appear that I thought Coulter was attempting satire, which I didn't.

I am left scratching my head as to why you would draw lines to a person who is known for personally attacking instead of debating. I think you need to look in a mirror here. While I may disagree with you, I'm not the one on the attack.

[Pamela Troy]

254. She's known not only for personally attacking, but for

ridiculing the personal tragedies of people she hates. I can easily imagine her joining in the fist-pumps over bin Laden's death.

[ScreamingMeemie]

257. I have yet to ridicule a personal tragedy here.

I'm just defending the right of people to have a personal opinion on this specific event. As I stated before, this event is going to affect people in different ways...and we have no control over that. My only comment on bin Laden is that he's dead, that part of history is truly history and I am hopeful that many find closure. Other comments I have made are that, in my opinion, he resisted arrest, after having admitted his guilt. :shrug:

[Pamela Troy]

261. Yes, everybody is entitled to a personal opinion.

They are NOT entitled to express that opinion without being criticized either for that opinion, or for the manner in which they express it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

264. If it were an opinion instead of a crazy rant about masturbation I

would have agreed with you. The OP that I originally responded to was not even a celebratory post, it was an observation on the way we tend to look down at each other here, when we disagree.

[Pamela Troy]

268. The OP you responded to was insulting those

who object to the sports-like celebrations as hypocritical and smug.

[ScreamingMeemie]

273. And so, that gave you license to go off like that? We are extremely

hypocritical of each other here on DU. That person's response is every bit as valid as the judgements that have been placed on those who are celebrating. I do tend to detest purist attitudes and I get labeled a purist all the time. For not thinking that health insurance reform was anything but lip service, never to be revisited again.

[Pamela Troy]

276. Uh, yeah, if someone calls me smug and hypocritical,

I do feel entitled to respond with some heat.

Do you think he's entitled to express his opinion without fear of someone reacting to it?

[ScreamingMeemie]

280. "It's a smug decency. A kind of decency I find has no real worth".

That is what I responded to. A commentary on holier than thou attitudes in this event. I have no use for those attitudes either. You injected yourself into my response to the OP. Who he was responding to, at that point, I had no idea. I sure do now, but my original agreement is against all of those who find themselves somehow "better" for not being able to see that some will process an emotional event with extreme ranges of emotion. Whether I, myself, am dancing for joy or not.

[Pamela Troy]

284. You're equating criticizing someone's actions with

assuming that you're "better." Using that rationale, we mustn't criticize, say, Fred Phelps people for picketing the funerals of gay hate crime victims, because that means we think we're "better."

[ScreamingMeemie]

287. No, I'm relating what I have been seeing all day long here.

In effect: If you are celebrating---you are no better than a freeper/jihadist
If you are horrified----you are a true Liberal.

It is the age old argument that goes on whenever DUers disagree on something: Agree with me? Okay you get to be a Dem today. Don't agree? Right wing TROLL!

[Pamela Troy]

290. And what you've been seeing here are people

criticizing actions. Some are criticizing the cheering, chanting U - S - A, fist pumps, and other forms of mass behavior more appropriate to sporting events. Others are criticizing the act of criticizing that behavior. And no, I've not called anyone a troll -- but when I see behavior similar to what I have encountered on Free Republic, yes, I'll say so. Actions I hate when I see them done by right wingers don't suddenly become all right when I see them done by liberals and leftists.

[ScreamingMeemie]

293. And I have yet to see that in this event.

This behavior is typical for any day on DU. Because we are different people. I can understand that some people will want to cheer over the death of Osama because they are profoundly affected by his actions. I can also see that that does not make them even close to Freepers. These are people I would want next to me in the trenches...on any day, over the best that the Right has to offer.

[Pamela Troy]

294. If someone acts like a freeper, then they are close to freepers.

I've been on DU a long, long time, and I'm sorry to say that there are a significant number of people here who are exactly as prone to freeperlike viciousness. The period when Tony Snow was dying of cancer comes to mind.

[ScreamingMeemie]

297. I've been on DU since March of 2003. I was a moderator during the '04 Primary freakout.

I'm pretty confident I can spot a freeper. Tony Snow dying of cancer is not the same as Obama bin Laden dying nearly a decade after our country suffered an enormous blow. No one is perfect and the majority of us here, even posters I have on ignore are just varying shades of Democratic. We are all prone to ugliness.

A freeper is one of the many who danced in a thread when my husband died (on another website) and said I drove him to it. My husband killed no one, and caused no grave and great harm to someone loved dearly by another.

[Pamela Troy]

302. I'm not saying that they are literally "freepers" who've

infiltrated DU. I'm saying that if someone acts like a freeper, they are no better than a freeper -- no matter how much I might agree with their politics.

And if I'm repulsed by shots of people in the middle-east cheering the death of a westerner, I'm no less repulsed by shots of people in the west cheering the death of a middle-easterner. Both are signs of barbarity.

[ScreamingMeemie]

304. They aren't acting like freepers in my opinon. They are acting

like people who have seen extreme suffering at the hands of the deceased. It's not how you or I choose to act, but it doesn't make them less of a Dem, or decent person, than I. They will get over it. They will move on. It's part of their process.

[Dorian Gray]

346. Most NYC

residents, for instance. People here were cheering. Most of them are liberals. Many have found catharsis in the death. I find nothing wrong with that.

[Pamela Troy]

253. Riiight. Attacking my parents by dissing the way I was raised

isn't a personal attack at all...

[ScreamingMeemie]

259. Not in my opinion.

:shrug: Can we try to stay on topic??

[Pamela Troy]

262. I think most people would consider someone denouncing

the way they were raised a pretty personal attack.

[ScreamingMeemie]

267. I guess next time I'll keep it to masturbation accusations...?

:shrug: Is it a sign of a decent raising to jump down someone's throat with that, instead of reasonable debate, when you disagree with them? Is it decent to try to draw a misguided and misquoted parallel to a RW raving maniac when you disagree with someone? It's not how I was raised.

[Pamela Troy]

272. Is it decent to treat a death like the occasion for a pep rally?

[ScreamingMeemie]

277. Did I personally do that??

No, I agreed with an assessment made by a poster (who was not you) that you didn't like. So you took it upon yourself to go off topic on masturbation. For the fifty billionth time, I agree with this poster's assessment, because I understand how this event has affected so many people on so many varying levels...but you can continue to disregard that if you wish.

[Pamela Troy]

279. Yes, I know. You agree that objecting to someone treating a

death like a sporting event is smug and hypocritical.

I think the OP at the top of this thread is the very definition of smug. And I think it would be hypocritical for me NOT to object to behavior on DU that I've objected to when I've seen it at Free Republic.

[ScreamingMeemie]

283. I agreed to the statement "It's a smug decency" After seeing smugness

all day long. There was no inference to sporting events, your name, or anything else in that post.

[Pamela Troy]

286. ...a statement that was a direct response to something I'd said.

[ScreamingMeemie]

289. And?

I responded to that poster. If my issue was with you, and you alone, I would have responded to you. This thread was already 50 billion responses long when I got to his post. My issue is with our refusal to see that we are going to react in different ways, to different events and, to label those whose behavior doesn't exactly mirror our expectations of how we should be acting as a collective, does tend to have a certain smugness attached to it.

[Pamela Troy]

292. ANY act of criticism, then, is "smug."

And sorry, but the fact that "reactions vary" doesn't make every reaction appropriate or put every reaction above criticism.

[ScreamingMeemie]

295. There has been an increased level of smugitude here of late.

Reactions vary, and I chose to see them for what they are. I will not find myself better than them, and I try not to attack them when we disagree. It's really quite simple. I'm not going to chastise them in their joy, even while I'm not finding it worthy of a dance. It's fundamentally who I am, because I know I'm not perfect, and it would suck to be caught in an imperfect moment (see my earlier comments on if someone were to touch a hair on one of my kids' heads). No one is perfect.

[Pamela Troy]

298. Do you think criticizing someone else means that the

critic imagines him or herself to be "perfect?"

[ScreamingMeemie]

300. In this case, with the attitudes of some of the more vocal...yes.

Definitely. No one is perfect. This is what I liken to a collective letting go of a metaphoric breath this country has been holding (whether Democrat or Republican) for almost 10 years. It was bound to happen. We will get through this. We will move on. I don't find it as horrific as some, in light of the devastation we all experienced as a country together.

That said. It is almost 2 AM and I have to get up with my son in 5 hours. We're going to have to disagree on this one. But I promise not to attack you if you promise not to attack me.

[Pamela Troy]

303. Based on what, for heavens sake, other than the fact

that you disagree with those particular critics?

[ScreamingMeemie]

306. Huh?

I said my piece. You know I have. Now it's just back and forth. I'm sure, at some point, when I decry the fact that health care is still too expensive for me, that so much more could be done to make gay marriage legal, that I'm really not all that impressed with the Dem administration, that I wish we could have a primary (just to see) I will be labeled a smug purist as well. Even though I'll probably hold my nose and vote because it's what we do, as Democrats. It's happened before, and it will happen again. I'll get through it. That said, I guess it will be just you attacking me. Have at it. Good night.

[JI7]

313. when it's the death of a piece of shit like Bin Laden it is

[JI7]

314. You remind me of Christine O'Donnell saying it would be wrong to lie to Nazis about Jewish people

hiding during WWII . because lying is wrong.

how you can't see the difference between attacks on people who have different political positions and those who are murderers like Bin Laden.......

just as lying might be wrong but in certain cases it can be justified or understood.

[JI7]

312. i find nothing decent about your position , in fact i find it pretty gross , cold,

you bring up Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter attacks people in ugly ways for things like their race, religion, some political position.

Osama Bin Laden was a murderer. he goes after and celebrates the deaths of thousands of innocent people around the world.

how you an compare Coulter going after people wiht political differences to people being happy a guy who killed many innocent people ...................

as if that's something to be proud of ????????

it's not.

[EFerrari]

37. Chastises people for their feelings, like this one does?

Yes, the hypocrisy is appalling.

[Javaman]

44. Do you really believe this will put things to an end?

I have a bridge to sell you, if so.

OBL is dead, long live the propaganda!

we now have to stay in afghanistan/pakistan to "rebuild" and to help form a "stable" government, just like we did in iraq!

there is no "end" to any of this.

war is money, it is very profitable.

[JuniperLea]

49. Where did I say any of that?

Wow... just motherfucking wow.

[Javaman]

78. You wrote, "Because they are happy to see an end to this."

Then define "this".

[bluestate10]

160. It put an end to Bin Laden. There are other terrorists that have to and

will be killed if they do not surrender. Terrorism has not ended, but the will of decent people to bring terrorists to justice, dead or alive will not end either.

[Hannah Bell]

275. speaking of sanctimonious

[jp11]

36. The corporate controlled media, the right wing dictating the narrative that doesn't get challenged

by democrats or journalists? Maybe it is the democratic party being in bed with big business and right leaning democrats that seek to 'win' by following the pull to the right instead the will of the people who very often support the liberal/progressive view of things.

Oh that isn't it, according to you the liberals/progressives think they are better than other people and have to show that by not blindly joining in with the masses gut reactions right or wrong, the need to think about things and attempt to make rational decisions. So it isn't really that they are sanctimonius but that people feel by not joining in with them in whatever they feel is right they are 'bad' or 'too good' for them, republicans have no problem following the mob mentality.

I think it is 'good' he is dead, I think we should have either captured or killed him years ago, and in all likelihood any attempt to capture him would have ended up with him dead as he wouldn't surrender. If the choice was to get him alive at all costs including more risks to military personnel then I say don't take the extra risk. I'd rather have seen him rot in prison for the remainder of his life but I'm not celebrating the death of one man who has 'won' his war on us and our way of life. We are still at war, we are still putting people in harms way, ours and innocent civilians, we have still lost many rights and freedoms, we still are stuck in a fear mongering world and there isn't any clear end to it on the horizon.

[murphyj87]

39. Americans don't elect liberals.....

Americans don't elect liberals because the United States, as a general principle, has a right wing, reactionary philosophy compared to Canada and most of the rest of the industrialized world. In many areas, American thinking is 50 years behind the the rest of the industrialized world, which is the reason why the United States is not respected in most of the industrialized world.

[mountainlion55]

156. agreed

IMO another reason is that fully 40% in the latest polling I've seen think that the world was created 6000yrs ago and we rode on dinosaurs like the Flintstones. And you know Sky Daddy don't like Muslims.

[gratuitous]

40. Yeah, let's just tear up the Constitution when it pleases us

It is hardly sanctimonious to remind ourselves that we're supposed to be the good guys. Someone once said that if you love only those who love you, how does that distinguish you? Even the vilest sinner does the same. He went on to say that we should love our enemies, and return good for evil. How is a murderous raid by our people distinguishable from a murderous raid by others? If we don't follow the rules and laws we have written down for ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to respect those rules and laws?

The President swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. Nowhere is there a provision for suspending the Constitution because we're scared of someone, or they're really, really bad, or for any other reason. I realize that my failures to trim my principles to fit this week's fashion is distressing to you. I'll try to get with the program in the future.

[coalition_unwilling]

195. Awesome. Well put. I wish I could rec your post. - n/t

[Newest Reality]

45. Healthy skeptcism

is a good thing and all concerns are subject to scrutiny.

After all the pure and unmitigated bull we have seen uncovered and verified over the years, questioning things would be a better approach, nationally. It would show the powers that be that we are not going to tacitly accept everything we are told, nor will be passive regarding our manipulation and the control it brings.

If we are not going to do that anymore, and the national climate is to go with the official line, then there will be no progress or liberty as we now define it.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

54. Some of us lived through the Gulf of Tonkin.

[zappaman]

74. not even sure what that means.

what on earth does the gulf of tonkin have to do with the death of a terrorist?

[markpkessinger]

128. Are you familiar with the government's deception of the public over the Gulf of Tonkin incident?

If not, look it up. I think the person you responded to was making a point about the need for a healthy dose of skepticism concerning military claims.

[zappaman]

144. oh, I see

so, since the gulf of tonkin was a ruse to justify a war, saying Osama is dead is a ruse also?
and apples are oranges?

[markpkessinger]

174. Cheap argument trick: putting words in someone's mouth

I never said Osama's death was a ruse, nor did the person you responded to. I merely said that skepticism towards military claims was warranted.

If you're going to argue, at least do so honestly, and respond to what I actually said.

[Johonny]

56. Hmm Osama dead has 290+ recs on front page

me thinks the majority of DUers shouldn't be blamed for a few people.

[Doc_Technical]

57. The only question now is,

who is going to be the new Emmanuel Goldstein?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DirkGently]

60. FUCK everyone who doesn't support Liberals / Progressives. They're the problem, not us.

[MadHound]

62. In other words, we're hated because we use our brains insteand of joining the two minute hate.

Wow:wow:

[cottonseed]

71. No, that's not it.

[MadHound]

75. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck. . .

:shrug:

[Zhade]

112. +googleplex

NT!

[ChoppinBroccoli]

63. Kinda Like That Hit John Wayne/Charles Bronson/Clint Eastwood Movie

You know the one. Where the bad guy kills the hero's family, and then the hero spends the entire movie pursuing him and hunting him down, and in the final climactic scene when our hero finally finds the bad guy, our hero captures him and turns him over to the proper authorities and then patiently awaits the bad guy's trial? Remember that one? People were leaving the theater going, "MAN!!! That was GREAT!!! That bad guy is DEFINITELY going to get HIS in about 12 to 15 months!!!"

[Vinnie From Indy]

64. Just read the littany of hand-wringing posts about the death of Bin Laden

This OP is simply another post that paints with a broad brush. One thing that all DU'ers should always notice about these types of posts is that there is NEVER any information to support the post. The OP simply declares that there is a "littany" of hand-wringing posts. Is it one post, two, three or more? Who would know? The OP certainly has not provided a scintilla of evidence that there position is true.

I will offer that the OP is simply making this up in order to rant.

Cheers!

[cottonseed]

69. You can't call out individual posts or posters on DU, otherwise, it would be fucking easy.

The list is long...

[Kurovski]

288. Posting links to the threads themselves is fine.

You wouldn't be calling out an individual.

I'll check later. Thank you.

EDIT: I think the rule is we can't carry an argument over from a thread that's been locked.

[cottonseed]

66. Like extreme right wing conservatives, they hate 90% of the people that live in this country.

But claim to know and want what is best for it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

133. +1000

That's it exactly. The far left and far right hate and/or think they're better than almost everyone else, yet can't understand why everyone else won't support them.

Unfortunately, the far right has money, which is why they get support disproportionate to their actual numbers. If there were any justice in the world, they'd be as marginalized as the kooky tinfoil hat nutters here.

[H2O Man]

67. I disagree.

[zappaman]

68. thank you!

K & R

[myrna minx]

70. So people who don't grave dance and view this day as a solemn day of remembering

the dead are sanctimonious? Just because they won't join in on your 2 minute hate? Wow.

[cottonseed]

85. If you're doing it quietly while not joining the "2 minute hate" you are not the target of the OP

Now, if you're spending your time hopping around the boards lecturing people about bloodlust, then you are.

[Zhade]

113. So we're targets now? With you or against you? Classy.

NT!

[Pamela Troy]

215. My, my, you do love your 2-minute hate, don't you?

Hate goes down so smoothly, doesn't it? Makes you feel strong! And smart!

Know what it makes you look like?

[JonLP24]

73. Oh bullshit

Right cranks up the propaganda such as calling the health insurance bill "Socialism". They tell bold faced lies when they're on the stump.

It is because the US doesn't know what the right is really like, buying that bullshit why we need to give "job creators" tax breaks.

[Bragi]

76. Nuremberg Trials = Justice; This killing does NOT = justice /nt

[cottonseed]

83. The people on trial at Nuremberg surrendered to Allied forces.

From my understanding, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, Osama didn't want to go out like that.

[Bragi]

91. They were given due process and real trials

You know, the kind of treatment and justice the U.S promoted and represented up until about 2001, when the U.S chose the path of lawlessness and revenge. Me, I don't want to celebrate that descent.

[cottonseed]

95. Yes, because they had the good sense to surrender (you know, stay alive)

Bin Laden apparently decided not to go that route.

[Bragi]

101. No, they all did not surrender

Many Nazis were captured fleeing. They didn't surrender. But whether they were captured or surrendered, they still were given due process and fair trials.

They received real justice because, back then, Americans thought things like due process and justice were important.

[joeglow3]

105. Really? Let me ask that again: REALLY????

Is your position that our troops found an unarmed Osama, who held his hands in the air, and we killed him?

If the police are serving a warrant and the individual opens fire, are the police evil for firing back? Or, are you one of those people who say we should only aim for arms and legs?

[Bragi]

117. Yeah, I'm probably "one of those people" /nt

[joeglow3]

136. There is a large IGNORANT segment that thinks you only aim for arms and legs

I say ignorant because they watch too much tv and actually think that is a reasonable view.

[cottonseed]

106. I'm sure if Bin Laden did not put up a fight (getting himself killed).

Then he may have had the chance to face real American justice. Instead, it was reported that he died in a fire fight.

[Bragi]

119. I don't believe that

I believe they wanted him dead, and they killed him to avoid a trial.

[cottonseed]

122. I know what you believe. That's obvious.

What you need to do now, believing what you do, is to call for the arrest of the soldier responsible for killing Bin Laden. I believe the charges would be murder.

[Bragi]

123. I need do no such thing /nt

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

196. Um, you might want to read this story from Reuters before

you lecture us all about what OBL 'decided' to do:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cottonseed]

82. To make it easier, just pretend it's Mike Vick.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. We have people here who want to outlaw porn & pancakes, yet demand 'cultural sensitivity' for FGM.

To say that there are corners of this place that are 'out of touch' is an understatement.

[WildEyedLiberal]

134. That's because it's only oppression if it comes from the White Christian Male Patriarchy(tm)

Endless excuses must be made for misogyny originating in non-white or non-Christian cultures, or, if the conduct is so terrible as to preclude excuses, a bait-and-switch redirect must be deployed: "But Americans/Christians are sexist too! We have no right to criticize them for stoning adulteresses/mutilating a girl's genitals/forcing women to be illiterate when we encourage women to wear heels and get boob jobs!"

I remember all the joyous gravedancing when Falwell died, and participated in it myself, but that was ok because he was a white Christian bigot, who, though his hateful words likely led to hate crimes against gays, never actively planned an attack that killed people. But because OBL is a non-white, non-Christian bigot, it's savage and hypocritical and barbaric to celebrate his death.

[Kurovski]

187. I celebrated Falwell's death as I had a very personal beef with Reverend One-Inch Weenie.

I got shit left and right for it .I had to fend off dozens of critics, and I partied on. Since your last statement about DU is shot full of shit, Your soliloquy is likewise suspect.

I don't tell people who suffer loss how to react emotionally. Your whole post make you look worse than any six sanctimonious individuals you might find here tonight.

Not only that, but it makes me think twice about you altogether.

[WildEyedLiberal]

189. What exactly is "shot full of shit"?

That it's okay to gravedance for Falwell but not Bin Laden? I think that's pretty well borne itself out, as those are the two major deaths I've seen posted about on DU. I even posted an OP defending "gravedancing" for Falwell and got 100+ recs for it; do you really think an OP defending dancing on Bin Laden's grave would be anything but a flamefest?

Bin Laden represents a mindset that is at least as poisonous, hateful, and vile as Falwell's, but there's a hell of a lot more fake hand-wringing about the people who are glad to see him dead. Ask yourself why that is instead of telling me superciliously that you're going to "think twice about me," whatever the hell that even means.

[Kurovski]

197. What happened then is happening now.

Some people are celebrating, others are protesting the celebration.

Same thing. There is no difference, ergo your premise is what is "shot full of shit"

I now "think twice" about the level of accuracy in your posts, that is what that means.

And i know now that you will even bend the truth to attack other democrats, that is what I actually see here.

I remember very VERY fucking well what happened with Falwell here on DU.

And Falwell did cause deaths, he contributed to suicides, He helped to keep civil rights from me he was my most bitter enemy. I had to listen to his shit on NEWS shows as a youth. he ruined many lives, and your patronizing and inaccurate rant about it is "shot full of shit".

Falwell was a terrorist. He was a Stochastic Terrorist. Exactly what Osama BL was.

I was excoriated for days for my grave dancing, and don't you tell me it did not happen. You are trying to make a completely inaccurate correlation between what happened then, and what happened now. And you did it to falsely discredit Liberals.

You have failed to an enormous amount on that count, Sir.

[WildEyedLiberal]

219. You need to seriously calm down and reread what I actually said

I AGREE with you about Falwell, and if you actually read my post, you'll see that. Don't you dare tell me that I am defending Falwell. I TOLD you I posted an OP about Falwell's death defending those who took joy in his death. How dare you accuse me of defending him?

Yes, there were the namby-pamby hand-wringers with Falwell, too, but there are a hell of a lot more of them now with Bin Laden. My ENTIRE POINT was that both were evil, hateful, bigoted, terroristic fucks, but yes, there's a difference in how DU has responded to their deaths. I am sorry you got shit for being happy about Falwell dying. I defended you then with my OP - I'm not expecting anything, but the least you could do is not accuse me of fucking defending him.

And I'm a liberal, so don't accuse me of discrediting liberals, either. I don't know what's gotten into you, but I'm sure as hell not your enemy. I don't tend to care for anyone who wrings their hands about other people's emotional reactions to the deaths of evil men - that goes for Falwell and it goes for Bin Laden, too.

And, speaking of accuracy, I'm not a Sir.

[Kurovski]

255. Ma'am.

I actually read your post{s}. I never said you were defending Falwell, nowhere. I was pointing out that the event is seared in my memory with accuracy. I said Falwell was a stochastic terrorist, you claimed falwell isn't even as bad as Osama. Both are the same kind of terrorist. (As if the level of evil mattered)We can not even tally up the deaths and misery both were "responsible for"

"How Dare I"? I didn't. Turning this around like a...well like a dishonest debater does not serve your cause well.

Both events: Osama/Falwell unfolded in like manner. It was the same in argument then and now, As I related in the post.

During the falwell death, I defended my reaction to it on a personal level, in reaction to what I saw done in my life and other's. The beatings, the deaths, the refusal to help in the AIDS crisis. And so on. I actually felt some amount of shame over it. I knew it wasn't anything to be proud of, but neither something to trash my own party over. Broad statements like: "this is why no one supports us" was the furthest from my mind. And it is an absurd and foolish thing to say. it's counter productive and feeds the trolls. It's like saying "shut up" but in a passable way. I remember that from Republican techniques in the Bush era and wrote of it in my local paper, and perhaps here at DU. All the elaborate ways the Republicans said "shut up."

On a human level, on a religious level, on a meter of decency, it's not something to hold up as an example. And people who point it out are actually correct. For all my defensiveness every person who scolded me was right, and I chose to behave in a lesser manner because it was emotionally freeing. It is nothing to make a habit of, and I'm grateful for people who kept that in my thoughts even as I tore anyone in my way to shreds. They were saying "think twice" aren't you better than that? Not "shut up" or "I'm better than you" Maybe it's guilt that makes someone view it as sanctimony, maybe not. but it's all very human to be sure.

I can't apologize, because I knew then what i was getting into, and my own heart and mind led me to it. I chose it as a therapy. A small, sorrowful therapy.

Some people who were affected by Osama's Stochastic terrorist acts all over the world are rejoicing. But we also see people who lost and yet speak out to say they don't feel like dancing on a grave. I admit that is the finer choice. People who let Falwell's death pass quietly also made the finer choice. I did not, and it helped me to reward the man for his life's work. I don't claim to be a better person. But I know when i see people making a finer choice, and I know that they are in fact better for it, if not perhaps better than me in general.

EDIT: You show a great deal of support for the OP throughout the thread, and was even thanked for it by the author. (I felt a need to put that in there before I sign off.)

[myrna minx]

321. .

:loveya:

[Kurovski]

331. For a second there I thought Wild and I might be getting engaged.

...and now you've gone and ruined it! :D

[WildEyedLiberal]

339. I defended the OP because I think the naysayers are taking away people's need for catharsis

Where can you have the purely cathartic outlet of saying that you're glad someone is dead if not a message board on the internet? You may not be proud of your reaction to Falwell, but you don't apologize for it, either, because it was human, and perfectly understandable given the evil that Falwell wreaked on the Earth. I don't think you should feel you have to apologize for an emotional reaction to an event like that. And I don't think you should have been shamed for it, either - and that's why I support this OP, because I think it's ghastly that people are using this opportunity to prove what moral paragons of virtue they are by shaming other people for their honest emotional reactions. I think there's a time and a place for moral high-handedness, but here, now, it just makes those who engage in such tactics look like self-righteous asses. Just let people vent; they need it. I'm sad that you apparently think it makes you a lesser person to have an honest human reaction to the death of a man who wrought evil in your life - you're letting the people who shamed you over it win a cheap moral victory that they didn't earn, because who are they to know how Falwell affected you?

And for the record, I did not suggest or intend to suggest that Falwell was "not as bad" as Osama - merely that Bin Laden actually ordered murder, unlike Falwell. I don't discount the many lives that were no doubt lost as a result of Falwell's hate, as you'll see in my post. Nevertheless, I apologize for upsetting you and bringing back bad memories.

[Kurovski]

349. We disagree about the OP. I think it's a disaster to have to fight the righties and ourselves.

It just breaks down to a matter of approach, and I think it could have been handled differently. It's been a wearying forty years of Right Wing big mouths who have done remarkable damage to all but the wealthiest and most privileged individuals in the world.

No need to be sorry. I had no flashbacks. i live with the knowledge of how things are. That's why I'm a smart-assed asshole. But I could be a contemplative mensch, prayerful and forgiving if I so chose, so that's no excuse. No offense was taken in that department.

I was upset with what I perceived as a false dichotomy.

Now: "Let's go get the bastards!" :)

[WildEyedLiberal]

353. Agreed

All the infighting here distracts us from our real enemy - the RW and their corporate overlords.

:pals: Glad to be on your side, Kurovski!

[Kurovski]

358. I found this on DU yesterday!

:thumbsup: :D

[grahamhgreen]

84. Your headline is simply untrue.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

340. And it only took 84 posts to point it out.

The American public aligns quite nicely with liberal thought, whether they know it, or like it, or not.

[TheKentuckian]

86. Unrecced due to an insane premise.

The majority rejects liberals and progressives because they are celebrating (sufficiently) bin Laden's being killed?

Not being connected to our fellow citizen's joy at this death means sanctimony? Why? Is there some tangible benefit? Why do I have to "feel" anything? If this doesn't create an emotional orgasm then am I tasked with pretending?

Feel free to follow the ever wrong radical regressives and corporate "centrists" off the cliff, if the left doesn't have enough blood lust for you. I'm sure that will comfort you in old age with no income and quality of life robbing sickness.

Good luck with that.

[JackRiddler]

87. Here's a rec for you, Kentuckian.

[KoKo]

179. Exactly...Well Said.

[JackRiddler]

88. What's the problem, tough guy? I've believed Bin Ladin was dead for years, so I'm ahead of you.

[fascisthunter]

92. um...ok

[Kurovski]

188. LOL!

*

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

93. Yay! Bring it on! Smoke 'em out! Killing is fun, fun, fun!!

Those durn progressives just don't understand the joys of killing and want to feel superior to those that do.

[flamingdem]

96. Sadly in this world it's no viable to be a pacifist as a leader of the USA

Sadly human beings still engage in power seeking acts and to be a pacifist is to be rolled by such forces.

Someday this will change.

[krabigirl]

100. yes, it will change, since we are running out of money.

[WildEyedLiberal]

97. The hyperbolic and righteous replies you've received to this OP seem to make your point for you

It's not about whether you "dance on OBL's grave." It's about whether you, upon seeing a thread that does dance on his grave, feel the need to reply with a post full to brimming of scorn and condescension: "Oh, is this a football game now? RAH RAH USA! (insert passive aggressive smiley here) Well, *I* for one don't find joy in ANYONE'S death!" The smugness comes through loud and clear, as does the implication that those who don't "grave dance" are better, more evolved, more liberal, more decent people than those who do. And yes, I do believe that this phenomenon is a large part of why a lot of people won't ever vote for those they perceive to be "liberal" - because if they don't pass the progressive litmus test, they get treated to this kind of thinly veiled "I'm smarter and more ethical than you and you're a backwards mouth-breather" crap. Gee, no wonder such people aren't falling all over themselves to ally with people who can barely contain their contempt.

Also, I'd really like to point out now that a lot of the same people who are now such paragons of morality, who find NO joy in the death of another human being, are the same people who engaged gleefully in dancing on both Reagan and Falwell's graves - or who at the very least thought it was perfectly understandable and acceptable if other people engaged in gravedancing. But I guess that's different - I mean, conservatives hated OBL too, so God Forbid we join in any sort of action that could be perceived as solidarity with freepers!

[Yavin4]

109. +1

Thanks for the support. OBL lead an organization that targeted and killed innocent people en masse around the globe. People forget that we foiled some of his plots. Expressing joy and relief that someone like that is dead is being a natural human being. To demean the people who express joy and relief shows that one does not connect with people in any way.

Then, we wonder why Liberals/Progressives are underrepresented in elected offices.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

221. No, I am not, and I would really appreciate you not distorting and lying about what I said about him

I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED JERRY FALWELL ON THIS WEBSITE. There were assholes wringing their hands about the reaction to Falwell's death, but they were the minority; now, they are the majority. What about that is so hard to understand?

[Kurovski]

258. No one ever said you defended him.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

98. Bollocks.

[krabigirl]

99. yeah, people don 't like people who think too much. I am proud to be a skeptic, thanks.

[WildEyedLiberal]

131. Proving the OP's point in a sentence

People who are happy OBL is dead "don't think too much" - in stark contrast to YOU, a proud skeptic. You managed to convey the OP's point very concisely - that you, in your self-anointed "skepticism," are obviously more intelligent and think more critically than do the silly fools who don't agree with you.

[bluestate10]

165. Yes, exactly. It is possible to be very smart and have a high IQ and not have

one's nose stuck in the air. BTW, I liked your reasoning on why voters that may be game end up not voting for progressives.

[Union Scribe]

202. Lol

You couldn't have bitten that worm harder could you?

[Honeycombe8]

102. You are right, Grasshopper. Glad the Witch is Dead!!!!! It's about Lady Justice. Not vengeance.

He was one evil man. May he rot in hell, where he belongs. Instead of many virgins, may he have to deal with many experienced women who will call the shots. That would certainly be a hell for the likes of someone like OBL.

[themadstork]

103. I think it's a pretty small portion of us

And there are those who will act like sanctimonious prigs in every party. The toady media and the attack on public education are probably more to blame.

[Kurovski]

207. Exactly. So why invest so much time bashing one's own party?

Even to the point of making up things against members of your own party, as has happened within this thread.

[kjackson227]

104. ITA! If you want someone to take a whiz...

in your punch, just come to DU. Someone will be more than happy to oblige.

[Zorra]

107. Yeah, alternative/contradictory opinions generally frighten and enrage conservatives.

Conservatives generally have a great deal of difficulty processing anything that does not jive with their belief systems, so they react with rage and irrationality.

Very common syndrome. But IMO, this should not keep liberals from exploring new and different ideas, just because these ideas frighten the relatively conservative majority.

Researchers help define what makes a political conservative

Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:

Fear and aggression
Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
Uncertainty avoidance
Need for cognitive closure
Terror management

Conservatives don't feel the need to jump through complex, intellectual hoops in order to understand or justify some of their positions, he said. "They are more comfortable seeing and stating things in black and white in ways that would make liberals squirm," Glaser said.

He pointed as an example to a 2001 trip to Italy, where President George W. Bush was asked to explain himself. The Republican president told assembled world leaders, "I know what I believe and I believe what I believe is right." And in 2002, Bush told a British reporter, "Look, my job isn't to nuance."
(more, a great read!)

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

Maybe someday, conservatives will overcome their fear of change, and will vote a majority of Progressive Democrats into office.

If that happens, I suspect that things will start to get better in this country immediately, instead of continuing to get worse and worse.

[erodriguez]

111. +1

[Zhade]

108. Wait -- wanting to uphold the rule of law for everyone is sanctimonious?

That's utterly asinine thinking.

[stevenleser]

208. In this situation? Yes. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

271. lol. it's "special".

[loudsue]

114. What's worse is that we've become a country of getting outraged over

one person saying something, and making it a national catastrophe. I have maybe read ONE post that describes what you're saying here. Now all of a sudden it's an ISSUE!!!!!

People say shit. It's not a majority.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. Or have the American people been whipped into jingoism

by 10 years of relentless propaganda about the War on Terror?

[cottonseed]

126. Don't get your panties in a bunch over a couple thousand college kids partying.

Jesus. This will be over in a day. Go make some lemonade.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

138. No, I was thinking of all the "America, Fuck Yeah!" attitudes being seen on DU

That's all.

[cottonseed]

141. A lot of that is just push back on the "I'm against the two minute hate" crowd.

The forums have become parodies of themselves this far into the day... on both sides of what is probably not even an argument

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

120. wow.

:wtf:

[cottonseed]

125. ^^ This is a MUST read ^^

[WildEyedLiberal]

127. I almost alerted on this, but decided not to

I want EVERYONE to see that yes, the far left can be just as ugly, racist, hateful, and utterly detached from reality as the far right. There are too many ostriches here who pretend that the wacko left either doesn't exist or isn't that bad - well, yes it does, and yes it is. Political extremism is vile no matter where it's coming from.

Edit: Whoops, it already got disappeared. But to recap, the (now hopefully banned) poster called Obama an Uncle Tom, said Bin Laden was a great and generous man, and could not wait until America, NATO, "the Christian West," and "Zionists" met their terrible fate at the hands of the anti-imperialists like Osama.

Could be a RW troll trying to stir shit up, but I've read enough Z Magazine, Counterpunch, and wsws to know that, unfortunately, these people really do exist.

[Kurovski]

183. Couldn't trolls exist in counterpunch too?

Just wondering. It's a burgeoning field.

[WildEyedLiberal]

191. One could argue that Counterpunch IS a troll site

But unfortunately, there are really people like that. I've met some. I never said they were very common, but then again, I haven't met that many drooling rabid extreme teabaggers IRL, either. I think the internet makes extremists of all stripes seem more prevalent than they really are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. two things

1.- Americans DO support liberal policies, every fucking poll proves this. But the war of words has equaled those policies by name to commies

2.- A MINORITY of people on a message board does not mean MOST LIBERALS think like this. IN fact this MINORITY is not liberal or progressive but is much older than the nation, see Quakers.

Oh and a third one...

Is that you Rush? This is a CLASSIC RIGHT WING Talking point

[WildEyedLiberal]

143. I think it's such a persistent RW talking point because it contains a grain of truth

All you have to do is read DU to see that. No, most - the vast majority - of liberals don't think like that, but enough do that enable the RW to point to their example and say "Look at all these elitists who think they're better than you because they are anti-war/don't drive a gas guzzler/don't believe in God/don't eat meat/(insert dumb binary political issue here)!"

And let's not fool ourselves that the loud outspoken holier-than-thous and their patronizing tone don't turn people off of liberal politics, even though, as you accurately said, people WANT liberal solutions to the nation's problems. Even if the holier-than-thous only represent 10% of "liberals," they're the 10% that apolitical or conservative Americans think of when they think of a "liberal." Yes, it's unfair and stupid, but it really doesn't help that so many people here are so seemingly eager to uphold the stupid stereotype.

[Armstead]

145. Please Remember This One Word.....

INDIVIDUALS

Individuals as in any group of people is a collection of individuals with many specific traits -- and combination of traits.

We all are what we are. We are not walking Zombies.

THere are liberals who are obnoxious and overbearing, just as there are moderates who are obnoxious and overbearing and conservatives who are obnoxious and overbearing.....Likewise, there are liberals who are sensitive and easygoing, moderates who are...etc.

And more accurately we are all a mix of traits, including at times being paradoxical .

[WildEyedLiberal]

154. Of course

That's why I can't stand the "I hate conservatives because..." threads - I may hate conservative politics, but I prefer SOME specific conservatives as people to SOME specific progressives as people. Not all conservatives, independents, liberals, etc. are the same.

I know the OP is describing a minority of liberals. I'm a liberal. I'm not "more" liberal or "less" liberal than the people of whom he speaks. I agree with him that some liberals are obnoxious, and that obnoxious liberals hurt our ultimate cause. I think the OP has a right to complain about obnoxious liberals BECAUSE they hurt our cause, which he (I assume) and I would like to see succeed, and every time an obnoxious liberal gives ammo to the RW, the likelihood of our agenda succeeding decreases. I am not as concerned with obnoxious RWers because for the same reasons I think they ultimately help us. Every RWer that acts like an ass is more ammo for the left to prove that they are not the patriotic Christian holier than thous they say they are. But every liberal that acts like a self-righteous holier-than-thou ass is one more example for the RW to point to and say, "look, they think they're better than you!" And that's why self-righteous obnoxious liberals give me a headache. They distract people from the rightness of our cause and make it all about their own virtue, their own purity, their own allegedly superior intelligence - their selfishness ultimately hurts us all.

[WillyT]

132. USA !!! USA !!! USA !!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna lose a lot of sleep over the death of Bin Laden, but I'm not gonna cream my jeans either.

:shrug:

[stranger81]

135. Bullshit.

How do you think our press would react if, say, the streets of prominent Middle Eastern cities were filled with jubilant celebrants lauding the death of GWB? Every news station in this country would be lamenting that such behavior reflects their "culture of death" and their lack of respect for life, and only proves that there's no sense negotiating with them.

Can't we do even a little bit better than this???

[zinnisking]

137. Are you the arbiter of the 2 Minutes Hate?

I feel a level of satisfaction but I won't be shamed into expressing joy. For political expediency I can see its usefulness. If Obama doesn't use this as a winning virtue in his campaign, then he doesn't want to win. But I don't see him expressing 'joy'.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1012001

I can't blame people for feeling off-put by all the jubilee.

[Hannah Bell]

140. -100

[jleavesl]

142. +1

[Kurovski]

163. "Maw! Putcher teeth in, we gots us a visitor!"

Welcome to DU, we take converts, sure. :hi:

This inspired you? :)

[DainBramaged]

146. Hear hear, you bet

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

149. So, we should just give up hoping to model any sort of higher-minded human behavior

and just give in to mob think. Just what Gandhi and MLK and Jesus did, right?

Let us all embrace the values of the masses! No evolution of consciousness for us! We must all learn to love American Idol and Celebrity Apprentice and knee-jerk jingoism!

Racism is right! Lynch mobs are right! Anti-intellectualism is right!

Fie on those who would call upon the better angels of our nature! They'll NEVER WIN ELECTIONS! Which, as we know, is the ultimate arbiter of what really counts in our national character, and the one true indicator of our national morality and ethics. 2010 PROVES IT!

[Kurovski]

181. Passionately and well put.

It makes me think twice, not jump you. :shrug:

Although, I might jump you anyway. ;) :*

[bluestate10]

150. I am glad Bin Laden is dead and want the USA to kill other terrorist

leaders. The threat of sure death will dampen the desire to rise through a terrorist organization. I have been a progressive antagonist on DU. The last sentence is telling for me because my lifelong instinct has been to sacrifice and share. The moral superiority and lack of perspective that progressives display are the characteristics that have distanced me from progressives and caused me to develop more respect for DU moderates. My politics have not changed, I believe in order and focus, and in sharing with less fortunate americans. Not even the most down nose looking, caustic progressive will change me from what I am at my core.

[Kurovski]

157. Why don't you read how many are saying what you say they are and tally it up?

Do a poll. I'm not seeing all that much hand-wringing. Some, but not so much that it qualifies you to make such a foolish claim as you do in your headline.

The vast majority seems to be glad he's gone.

Americans are indeed in line with liberal views, as they discover after decades of being economically eroded by the right.

Separate emotion from policy. I didn't see anything about voting for a law to have all Americans jump for joy on the death of an asshole who should have been caught ten years ago. A liberal (as mostly defined) is in THE WHITE HOUSE for fuck's sake. And that despite electoral shenanigans.

[Marr]

158. I'd like to go on record now as someone not joining the slack-jawed celebrations.

Am I glad bin Laden was killed? I suppose so. It's not going to mean much beyond symbolism and political points (which is what people are really cheering for, if they could be honest). I'm not going to cheer for death, however. It's not the superbowl.

[Kurovski]

167. That's very astute: "political points"

I'd be hard-pressed to deny it as some of my posts have made comparisons between what Bush did, as opposed to what is happening now.

[Raine]

161. EXACTLY you're TOTALLY on point

I see the self-righeous sanctimonius superior preaching and I can understand why so many on the other side believe that liberals hate America. These "hand wringers" always seem to come down on the side that no matter what America does it's wrong.

I agree, America under President Obama leadership did the right thing. I'm glad they killed that murdering terroriest.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurovski]

164. That's what I'm seeing, too. It's one of those "shut up, go lockstep " threads

IMO.

[KoKo]

172. Exactly. It's sad to see people calling themselves Democrats on a Democratic Message Board

trying at every opportunity to trash their fellow Democrats. We have every right to be here and speak up for Democratic Issues that are important to us.

[Kurovski]

180. We're getting caught up in a frenzy. It will settle, but oh boy!

[bluestate10]

168. Your condescension is dripping. Bin Laden was a fucking monster.

The world is a better place today with him dead. Get over yourself.

[AsahinaKimi]

166. For me, things may be different then you.

I am a Japanese (Korean) American. I was brought up on Buddhist principles, though I must admit I have not been in practice for a long, long time. Things I had been taught have been long forgotten other then a few concepts and beliefs that were etched into my head and heart.


Today, while sitting in a doctors office, waiting to be examined, the lobby TV was on CNN. I saw imagines of people dancing, jumping up and down gleefully screaming "USA, USA, USA!!!", as though we had just won many gold metals at the Olympics. I understand this country needs, as the TV stated, "closure"... but for me, I had a hard time dealing with that.

I was having inner conflicts about people who seemed to enjoy "dancing on people's graves"... but as I understand it, when the Twin Towers fell, some people in the middle east did the same thing.


America was raised on Westerns, the guys in the white hats going after the guys in the black hats.. the thrill of the good guys gunning down the bad guys in the old days of black and white TV. Its all apart of the American heritage.. (And hey, In Japan, they had their Samurai movies too.. I loved Shintaro Katsu, as Zatoichi, the blind cane swordsman, who would become protector of the small people and taking out the evil men of the Yakuza... but its still all make believe. Its fiction, even if most of those stories had some kind of moral code at the end.)


But, as a Buddhist I struggle with the lessons taught about the Sanctity of life. I know there are not many on this board who are Buddhist. We are such a small minority, so to be American and to be Buddhist, well, there are some things that are always a conflict. I know life should be sacred. I am looking forward to reading the thoughts of the Dali Lama, as to his take on all of this. He always seems to put things into perspective for me.


I only know, that watching people dance, and jump around felt very wrong to me. I could never participate in such an act. I also know that the circumstances probably made it impossible to bring Bin Ladin in alive, so wishing things were different, do not really matter. It happened as it happened.


But I can't celebrate someones death. Even if they are considered so very evil..It simply is just not the Buddhist way. It feels to me, wrong...so very wrong.

[Kurovski]

175. There are other people who are likewise reacting from religious training/discipline.

But I'm just not seeing so many posts where there is non-stop lecturing going on.

It's ironic that people who are responding out of their religious beliefs would be accused of being the reason people don't "vote for liberals/progressives" (whatever the phrasing) when the majority of Americans claim to be religious.

[brentspeak]

170. "Hand wringing", "Sanctimonious", "Need to feel morally superior"

Ironically, your OP itself was a textbook example of those very same things.

[KoKo]

171. I think that People should have the right to stand up against the Bush Policies...

And we have every right to question a Government that has gone off the tracks for the past 30 years with Wall Street Criminals who get off who raped peoples pensions with scams...brought down Western Economy and got bailed out on our taxpayers and savers money.

Torture Policy and taking away the rights of American Citizens for NeoCon Wars and Philosphy of War and Economic theory has bankrupted us.

Those of us who protest have every right to do so. And the Activist who VOTE and got out there on the streets and active in our Democratic Party have a right to be heard. We are not whiners.. We are Voters and we Donate and we have every right to be heard and to stay active to move the Democratic Party to where we think it needs to be.

That's what a Democracy is supposed to be about.

[JonLP24]

178. Agreed

This is why I stick around in threads like these so I can read posts like yours'.

[quaker bill]

177. This is precisely on point

I do not celebrate OBL's death, victory in war, to my mind, is not to be celebrated, for it is rejoycing in death. On the other hand, under these circumstances, I would not condemn those who do.

OBL requested this fate, repeatedly and knowingly. I am happy to not be the one who had to make this decision or deliver on his request. However, I would honor and not question the choice of those who did.

[w4rma]

182. Progressives aren't lockstep in line with some authority. Never will be and that's why

folks call themselves progressive. Don't worry about the hand-wringers. Progressives, as a group, tend to make the right choices, just remember that there is lots of static and it is that static that helps progressives, as a group, make those right choices.

[Bluebear]

193. "Hand wringing", "Sanctimonious", "Need to feel morally superior" - sorry, that sounds like your OP

[SmileyBoy]

194. I've heard every kind of reaction under the Sun on this forum.

That's the crutch of the left wing. We're waaay more varied and diverse than the right wing.

[whatchamacallit]

198. Who fucking cares? (nt)

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurovski]

203. +1000

Especially since we can replace some with all the influx of union folks who actually get political work done instead of attacking each other with inflated imaginary crap ala Beck.

[Hugabear]

205. There are PLENTY of freepers who don't believe OBL is dead

I've already seen several Facebook postings accusing Obama of staging this, faking OBL's death for political gain.

On the contrary, I haven't really seen very many posts here on DU suggesting that. A few, sure, but not enough to warrant the notion that "so many of us don't believe he's dead"

[Wind Dancer]

214. -1

My first unrecommended!

[DeSwiss]

223. BS

[alarimer]

231. I am frankly disgusted with the celebrations

I don't care whether you think I am being sanctimonious or not.

And of course it will make NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE at all. The idiots dancing in the street are too stupid or drunk to know that.

The real damage to this country was not done by bin Laden but by OURSELVES. By being fucking sheep and letting the government of Bush take OUR RIGHTS AWAY. Osama fucking WON. Dead or not, the terrorists actually won. We let them by electing piece of shit teabaggers and milquetoast Democrats. Obama fucking won.

[Hannah Bell]

269. kr!

[Oasis_]

285. Disagree

I too celebrated (and continue) to celebrate his death and hail our courageous forces that put a bullet through his dome.

OBL won? Maybe if you think getting capped is "winning".

His dead, rotting corpse is now officially fish food.

Good for us, good for the President, good for the world.

Oasis

[Bonobo]

291. It looks like you have found the right website! Welcome!

You sound like you will get along just fine here!

[Oasis_]

296. Touche

That was good. I freely admit to being a pro-US centrist Democrat, but that link generated a hearty laugh after I clicked on it.

I'm not the enemy, only a friend with a somewhat differing worldview.

That was good though.

Oasis

[EFerrari]

301. Right, we won. We've funded two ruinous wars for all these years,

we've been wiretapped, groped at airports and had our library books investigated by the Feds. We're broke and our rights have been so eroded that the young people under 25 don't even remember what it was like before the Patriot Act.

But that one guy sure is dead! Woot!

lol

[Kurovski]

307. Do you remember Obama's plan to bankrupt America with endless wars?

The Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera released a full transcript Monday of the most recent videotape from Osama bin Laden in which the head of al Qaeda said his group's goal is to force America into bankruptcy.

Al-Jazeera aired portions of the videotape Friday but released the full transcript of the entire tape on its Web site Monday.

"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said in the transcript.




http://articles.cnn.com/2004-11-01/world/binladen.tape_1_al-jazeera-qaeda-bin?_s=PM:WORLD

[EFerrari]

308. Of course. Wasn't Richard Clarke the one who tipped us all off?

I want to read that, thanks!

[Kurovski]

355. Rachel Maddow led her broadcast tonight with this Osama "bankrupt the U.S."

story. Are you writing for her now Ms Ferrari? :) Seriously, she gives more info on just how much it has cost. I say keep an eye out for when it gets posted in political Video forum, well worth it, stuff in it I didn't know.

Quite the tally.

[EFerrari]

357. Ooooo. I will look for it as I don't get that channel.

I love it when Rachel gets facty. :)

[Kurovski]

359. She's funny that way.

...talk about going against the grain.

[Kurovski]

316. This is on the way to winning a stated goal right here, from 2004...

And things are much worse economically now...


Bin Laden Transcript Outlines Plan to Bankrupt U.S. Through War

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden said he is trying to bankrupt the U.S. through its war on terror, a strategy he says felled the Soviet Union two decades ago in Afghanistan, according to a translation by al-Jazeera television of his full, videotaped statement.

``The mujahedeen recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan -- with Allah's permission,'' bin Laden said in the video that aired on the Qatar-based satellite network, according to the translation, posted today to al-Jazeera's Web site. The channel aired portions of the statement on Oct. 29.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aQwY7PFwX6oI&refer=us

Richard Clarke on Good Morning America said while emotionally satisfying, Osama Bin Ladin's death "doesn't mean much for American security" and says it is a "propaganda victory"

http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2011/20110502042019.aspx

[kath]

281. -1000.

Nonsense.
Insane premise, as noted by another poster above.

[avaistheone1]

299. Bullshit.

:thumbsdown:

[pa28]

305. We live in an odd world and it only gets worse at critical points like this.

It's amazing how much debate we have over the final chapter written on Osama Bin-Laden's life. We're scrutinizing the details here but missing the larger story.

For nearly a decade the "war on terror" has taken the lives of countless innocents through collateral damage, misplaced bombs, rogue drone attacks and simple murder. I'm not sure of the exact toll but what about them?

People are celebrating and I think it's a mistake to attribute those feeling to simple bloodlust or revenge. This can be a turning point for the institutional errors we've made and that in itself should be a reason to smile, let our shoulders down and realize we might be seeing daybreak after all the foreign policy madness of the Bush years.

[TheKentuckian]

345. What indicates this?

[Kurovski]

309. Delete

wrong thread.

[Dark]

310. A liberal who is not ashamed to celebrate the fact that this man can't plan more atrocities

is happy to kick this post.

[quinnox]

311. Wow, so liberals are the enemy, huh

Did you get lost on the way to free republic? Disgusting that this thread never got locked.

[Zorra]

326. Rhetorical question?

Been wondering about all these anti-liberal talking point threads also.

Trashing liberals the way Limbaugh does.

[mmonk]

329. We always are regarding everything.

[inna]

315. what a bizarre fucking thread. tried to read it, but gave up.

[EFerrari]

325. And based on a false premise at that.

It has everything. :)

[Hissyspit]

342. Sad that this crap got 32 recs. nt

[Bluebear]

360. +

[Stand and Fight]

319. Happily and whole-heartedly recommended. n/t

[malaise]

320. Yes indeed

The idea that governments should practice what they preach is so archaic. :sarcasm:

[Enrique]

322. liberals reacted the same way you did

but we're now reflecting on that initial reaction.

That's a good thing, imo.

[Name removed]

323. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Art_from_Ark]

327. Unrecommend

What nonsense. The liberal/progressive causes have been under attack since at least November 22, 1963. Liberals have been roasted on the public spit, trashed in the media, even assassinated when their ideas have become too popular, while wacko conservatives have been given a free pass since at least the days of Ronald Reagan. The conservatives win because they have the money, they control the microphone, and they appeal to the basest instincts of human nature, among other things, none of which appeal to humanity's better angels.

[mmonk]

328. Lots of projection there.

Who here is hand wringing?

[Exilednight]

344. It's not worth wringing my hands over. n/t

[chillspike]

330. I agree

Some people are poo pooing this just to be different. You don't have to rejoice over death but at least acknowledge we had very little choice but to take out this terrorist mastermind.

[Kurovski]

335. "Pooh-poohing" (not to be sanctimonious)

but spelled that way, I can't help but think of Homer Simpson's stint as a food critic for the Springfield Shopper. :)

[myrna minx]

341. Allow me to slap that eclair outta your hand.

:D "Pooh-poohing" is how the commies - commies who should go back to Russia - spell it.

[Kurovski]

348. Russia? this time of year?

The Chekov Festival doesn't start until the END of May! Hmmph!

[Bluebear]

356. lolol

[Exilednight]

338. I'd listen to

Palin, Limbaugh, or O'Reilly if I wanted to hear how the liberals of the Democratic Party "need to feel sanctimonius at all times, this need to feel morally superior, this need to reject ANY connection with your fellow citizen's joy over the death of a man".

Are you going to question my patriotism, too?

[Name removed]

350. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

352. This is why I have no intention of ever fitting in with the majority.

And what insecure people need that kind of prop anyways? You mean people disagree with me? Shit no, I better change to be like them so we all get along better!!!

What cowering pap.

[Bluebear]

361. Thank you.

[DainBramaged]

362. HEAR HEAR

:patriot:

[xoom]

363. right on!

[TNLib]

364. Personally I'm glad the SOB is dead however There was nothing progressive or Liberal about his death

I can see way many Liberals would be upset about it and I can respect their opinion I can also see why they question the legitimacy of his death considering how our government has a history of lien to us.

What I can't understand is how so many tea bagging idiots think Obama doesn't deserve any credit for an incredibly successful mission and want to credit Bush. That's just absolute lunacy to me.