I think it's great that we got bin Laden....But this is not Fox News or Free Republic either...

[Armstead]

Some of you might not like what some DUers who are not equally thrilled might think or say. Personally, my gut reaction to some of the negative threads here is "Lighten up for at least a day. This is a good thing."

But fer Krikey's sake, should this occasion really be used as another excuse to engage in generalized "liberal bashing" and insulting of progressives? Some of the talking points here sound like they could have been lifted from Fox News or Rush.

A humble suggestion: If you see a thread that you believe is not sufficiently boosterish about the killing of bin Laden, why not just respond and disagree on that thread?

Why call out all liberals and progressives with Bush-like attempts to marginalize liberalism and liberals and progressives with right-wing stereotypes?

[villager]

1. Thanks for the clear-headed and much-needed post.

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

2. Wait

"Why call out all liberals and progressives with Bush-like attempts to marginalize liberalism and liberals and progressives?"

You're suggesting that those who are happy bin Laden is dead are not liberals and progressives?

[Armstead]

5. I am suggesting that people using this as an excuse for more liberal-bashing are....

misguided. (I'm restraining myself from other words here.)

I'm a liberal and I am happy that bin Laden is dead.

[ProSense]

7. "I'm a liberal and I am happy that bin Laden is dead."

Your OP is a straw man.

[Armstead]

12. Of course you'd say that

Forgive me for suggesting this, but look at some of the Thread titles here, and the nature of some of the responses.

No strawman here. there are numerous post today that are doing exactly what I said above.

[ProSense]

23. Hmmmm?

"A humble suggestion: If you see a thread that you believe is not sufficiently boosterish about the killing of bin Laden, why not just respond and disagree on that thread?"

Why not take your own advice?

[Armstead]

27. I have, until the anti-liberal threads and posts kept proliferating like rabbits

...or something resembling prolific elephants

[ProSense]

38. "until the anti-liberal threads "

What the hell are you talking about?

You're accusing other liberals of not being liberals.

[freshwest]

46. Everyone here is technically a liberal, but some are conservative, which is against the mission.

And we do have freepers onboard, as well.

[Armstead]

47. I'm not going to engage in another circular argunent you

If I said the sun rises in the east, you'd find some reason to say I was wrong.

[freshwest]

25. I'm a liberal and don't care if he's dead. But happy the war may be buried with him.

I don't care for the broad brush strokes claiming less than gung ho responses to the death of another human being, no matter how hateful he was, is why progressives and liberals are maligned.

I won't agree with that. It's just another version of 'pinko, commie liberal' speak. It's attacking our members, not arguing ideals.

:dem:

[Armstead]

31. I agree with you

I'm not concerned with the "pros" or "cons" of people's individual reactions.

It's the broad brush insults and stereotypes that some are using against liberals that's the problem.

[hfojvt]

36. What is liberal bashing though?

If one part of DU bashes another part of DU is that liberal bashing? Is centrist bashing better than liberal bashing? Does it now look like this

1. Threads celebrating the death of OBL

2. Threads complaining about the celebrations of the death of OBL.

3. Threads complaining about the people who are complaining about the celebrations of the death of OBL.

and now your thread, which is a

4. Thread complaining about the people complaining about the people who are complaining about the celebrations of the death of OBL.


Your suggestion was that the 3rd group simply respond in threads instead of starting their own, and yet you felt the need to start a thread bashing those people who were doing things you didn't like instead of following your own suggestion.


There are two types of liberal bashing.

1. Fox News which bashes liberals in order to make Democrats look bad,

2. Democrats who bash those on the left who are doing things that will make Democrats look bad.

The two are not the same. They may sound the same, but they have different motives.

The one group is saying "Look at what the moonbats/primitives are saying"

The other group is saying "stop showing the attitudes that can be used against us in the court of public opinion". Everything we say can and will be used against us in the court of public opinion.

[Armstead]

49. Your Number Two is what I am talking about

There is plenty of room for disagreement on political tactics, strategies and even on goals.

I disagree with you on that 2) point vehemently. Which is fine. We can debate that vigorously, without taking it to personal insults or to generalizations about everyone who does not have the same opinion as you or me.

There is also plenty of room for disagreement on this particuklar situation. I have no problem with posts that say some variation of "This is great and President Obama deserves a lot of praise for this." Nor do I have a problem with those who say "I think this was a mistake" or "it doesn't really matter" or whatever. And I have no problem with vigorous debate about it in those threads,

But what I do have a problem with are these broad-brushed excuses that are being used like "The hand wringing of liberals shows how liberals are destroying the democratic party" or the different variations of that theme. Especially when it talks about liberals as "weak kneed" or whatever other right-wing stereotype is being used.

[sabrina 1]

66. I am not a liberal or progressive, and

find the party atmosphere to be appalling. It seems liberals have suddenly become indistinguishable from those on the right who cheered any kind of killing so long as we were the ones doing it.

For some these events are merely political, on both the right and the left.

At least I've learned that it isn't just the right who revelled in the killing of people like Saddam Hussein eg, or who assumed that anyone who didn't must be a 'terrorist supporter'.

There seems to be a point where both sides meet and that will be something for Independents to consider in the next election.

[Poboy]

3. It is a day for chest beating and high fives....and kicking some ass!

[quinnox]

8. crystallized it

you said it.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

4. I referred to it in another thread as "letting out the cork"

Unfortunately, there are some here who like to immediately pounce on what others say and beat them down into agreement or a retraction, and that's just the nature of them thar Internets.

People can disagree, people can hide the threads, people can put the posters on ignore, they can do all kinds of things. But demanding that others think and act in a certain way? That's kind of bin Laden-ish, isn't it?

:eyes:

Appreciate your post...it needed to be said.

:-)

[snooper2]

6. I just wish the truthers could put a big T next to their ID..

On this current topic it's kinda a hard to tell the truthers away from the far left who think every military action ever taken by the U.S. is evil...

[Lucian]

9. To me...

being gleeful and cheering the death of an individual is equated to chest-beating and grunting. We're better than this. Yes, a horrible man is dead, but his death solves nothing. All it does is closes another chapter in US history.

It's another day and terror is still out there.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

44. Is patricia some kind of French name?

:sarcasm:

[Lisa D]

11. Yet, you seem to be doing the same thing

I understand your intent here, but you're calling posts/opinions you disagree with as equal to Fox News or Rush Limbaugh. This is a moment of catharsis for many on what has been a very ugly period in our history. I wish we could stop attacking each other and just let people vent as they wish for one day.

[Armstead]

22. I am not talking about the specific differences in reaction to the event...

I have no problem with people debating issues like this on its own terms.

But I don't like reading post after post talking in generalities about how liberals are weak, and not sufficiently militaristic and all of the other stereotypes that you usually hear coming out from the GOP and conservatives.

People's individual feeling about war and national security are very personal and do not necessarily follow ideological or party lines.

[MilesColtrane]

13. I've never understood taking an issue with an OP and not dealing with it in that thread.

It seems rather passive aggressive.

[freshwest]

14. Thank you for noticing, too. And supporting DU as a place to let it all hang out.

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

Said B. Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

:rofl:

[GodlessBiker]

15. You mean liberals and progressives have not been "boosterish" over this event?

I think some liberals and some conservatives have been boosterish, while some liberals and some conservatives have not.

[Armstead]

24. I agree with you....People's responses are personal

What I object to is the generalized stereotyping going on at the moment.

[GodlessBiker]

29. I see your point, but also think your OP is engaged in the same thing by suggesting...

that liberals and progressives are on one side of the issue, with everyone else on the other side.

[AlabamaLibrul]

39. I don't think that's the scope of the thread and here's why:

there are people who are so anti-war that the killing of bin Laden does not justify the past decade of war. Others who are more hawkish, whether they be liberal, progressive, socialist, conservative, whatever you want to call them, really went all out last night in the personal attacks and absolute bashing of anyone who was less than thrilled and dancing in the streets over this news.

And it was really really really uncalled for.

[Armstead]

50. No....But some people are attempting to portray that

As I noted in the OP, personally I am a staunch liberal and I am happy Obama got bin Laden. Opinions on this are not based on ideological templates.

But the type of posts I am referring to are attempting to set it up as yet another litmus test and an excuse to set up a false dichotomy. In effect saying "Damn liberals are weak-kneed conspiracy nuts and they are the problem."

[Bragi]

16. I'm used to being villified as a progressive

I've been villified all my life for my political views. I don't plan to be silent about my disgust over the blood-soaked revenge fest being enjoyed by many here, and I expect to be vilified for it. Comes with the territory.

[Distant Observer]

60. In America it is impossible NOT to be vilified if one is overtly progressive and consistently so

[Distant Observer]

17. Obama's clear-headed leadership got results Bush couldn't. But remember: Bin Laden was OUR GUY ONCE

[MisterP]

56. really, since both figures might be said to answer to Langley , it's more of a workplace shooting nt

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Most liberals recognize this for what it is: the long-overdue taking down of a homicidal maniac

who viciously murdered over 3,000 people nearly 10 years ago.

There is a small contingent of eternal complainers who are not happy, and they consist of, to name a few, tin foil hat 9-11 'truthers', the permanently pissed and eternally aggrieved at Obama, and surely not a small number of right-wing republicans and christian right crazies in deep cover troll mode.

They are NOT indicative of anything resembling 'liberal, progressive thought' on this thing.

[Lisa D]

21. +1000

[RainDog]

28. exactly. n/t

[Armstead]

32. Perhaps. But criticism or skepticism does not automatically put people into those boxes

nor does it say anything about liberals/progressives in general.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Anyone who is bashing liberals and progressives in general

is starting from several erroneous assumptions.

[Armstead]

54. I agree with that

[enlightenment]

40. Perilously close to calling out DUers, Warren - and

your suggestion that glorifying the government ordered political assassination of a human being (even a 'homicidal maniac') is indicative of 'liberal progressive thought' is grotesque. Last time I checked, government sanctioned and ordered political assassination was not part of the progressive platform.

Not everyone believes this was appropriate/right/handled well. Even those who agree with the action may be revolted by the public reaction to the news. That doesn't make them all 'complainers', 'truthers', 'permanently pissed off', 'aggrieved', or 'deep cover trolls'.

It means they don't agree with you. You do not hold the patent on 'liberal progressive thought'; your opinion is just that. Your opinion.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. I will live with the peril.

[enlightenment]

59. Somehow, I knew you would. nt

[RainDog]

19. or better yet - simply ignore that thread

people are going to have all sorts of reactions and you can ignore those you find offensive.

[Armstead]

26. If it was "that thread" I'd agree with you

And, frankly, I' not talking about whether any individual thinks this event is great, bad or meaningless.

But all of these threads and posts that are painting liberals as weak and spineless is very distressing in a larger sense.

[chill_wind]

20. How unammerikin.You're either with us or agin' us, don't you know?

[Overseas]

30. I agree with you. They can also just ignore those posts. Or unrec them.

Lots of choices rather than generalizing about why everyone hates progressives .

Similarly, if progressives disagree with the jubilant tones of other threads, when the USA has killed so many more civilians than were murdered on 9/11, we can just leave those threads alone or voice our displeasure therein. No need to post separate threads to be sure everyone knows our personal version of disgust at the gloating.

[nashville_brook]

33. spot on.

[DevonRex]

35. How about if those not rejoicing don't tell those who are rejoicing that they're not liberals?

[JuniperLea]

37. Amen to that...

You can cut the condescension around here with a knife.

[DevonRex]

41. Yep.

Folks running around drawing imaginary lines in the sand that supposedly decide who is and who isn't liberal.

[Armstead]

51. That's a fair point.....But my own reaction is based on how much liberal-bashing there is

There is likely some of that generalization coming from the other side of this.

But more often, the posts that are more negative about the killing of bin laden are focused on the reasons why the poster is being critical of it -- rather than just using it as an excuse to score meaningless partisan/ideological points against other posters or otehrs on the left half of the spectrum. For the most part, they are not saying "Everyone who is happy that bin Laden was killed is a war-mongering pig."

(I realize there may be some exceptions to that.)

Big difference there.

[treestar]

42. the progressives are such victims

I don't see how they can expect to have major influence.

Can they not take it when well tell them we don't agree with their crapping on this too?

[Armstead]

45. You just proved my point /nt

[EFerrari]

48. As if on cue.

LOL

[Kurovski]

61. This is a progressive site.

Despite your long running attempts and *sometimes regressive mindset.

"... Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals..."

Progressive ideals exist in a very questioning arena. Things are rarely taken on face value.

But you stay within a safe range of the rules with your general contempt for progressive values and progressives themselves.

*EDIT: Changed "often" to "sometimes"

[kenny blankenship]

52. I've seen people here who cannot hide their disappointment OBL was found and killed

Sorry, that's a very telling symptom of Hate-Americaitis

Nobody here is calling out "all liberals and progressives". We are Democrats, liberals, progressives and socialists. What is being called out and should be called out are people who evidently quietly looked to this terrorist figure for hope that the big bully, America, could be defied and resisted. They're actually in mourning, because they hate America more than they hated this terrorist asshole. And they are being called out now, not for their anti-imperialist ardor, which has carried them way, way over the line, but for being insensitive to the injury OBL caused to thousands of American families who lost loved ones on 9-11, and to the threat OBL remaining at large represented to us all.

[Armstead]

55. Maybe .01 percent feel that way here

[Kurovski]

62. I haven't seen it yet. But there are a lot of threads.

Your guess at a percentage seems like it might be close to the reality.

[Armstead]

63. Maybe .2 or something....But it's very from the majority and

also very far from the feelings of the majority of ultra liberals and progressives.

[wickerwoman]

64. That's a very serious accusation. Can you provide a link?

[kenny blankenship]

65. I sure can but that would be against the house rules.

You can easily find them for yourself.

[wickerwoman]

67. You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you.

And it's not against the rules to link to other threads that contain references to things you're talking about.

You don't have to link to the post. Just link to a thread that contains a person who is disappointed that bin Laden was killed.

[Kurovski]

70. There's nothing against PMing links to each other.

Provided both parties are donating members.

[krabigirl]

53. DU is a neolib version of Free Republic at times.

[bluethruandthru]

57. Thank you for putting into words what many of us have been thinking.

I'm glad Osama is dead and I'm thrilled that is pisses off the Righties. I'm also a little unnerved by some of the posts here today and the unabashed nastiness directed towards "liberals" - using the word with disgust the way the right does.

[Armstead]

58. That's ultimately what is bothering me

The snide insults against "those liberals" that would not sound out of place coming from the mouth of Anne Counter.

[JI7]

68. hahah

[JI7]

69. hahah

[JoeyT]

71. Apparently any situation is an excuse to bash liberals.

By people that, in other threads, will act scandalized that we accuse them of not being liberals for some reason.

Why call out all liberals and progressives with Bush-like attempts to marginalize liberalism and liberals and progressives with right-wing stereotypes?

Because it's what right wingers do. Maybe we should just start responding "And will sir be having the Oxycontin and Viagra cocktail?".

[Armstead]

72. Lol great line about the Oxys...