Is college even worth the investment anymore?

[Buddyblazon]

I think education is VERY important. I think educated people are far less likely to be duped by the powers that be.

However, now that the cost of a secondary education is approaching the cost of a house, I can't say that I think a college education is a good investment.

I just think now the cons far outweigh the pros. Yes, you'll be better educated. But you'll be like me, going out into the work force and having a large debt hanging over your head for years to come.

Just another way our uber-rich overlords are dismantling the middle class.

[w8liftinglady]

1. I think affordable college education is very important on many levels...

unfortunately-even at a state university level-it has left many Americans without the ability to go..

[bluestate10]

6. The government should make CE free to motivated students.

The benefits of having an educated population are enormous.

[stray cat]

2. Depends on the school - two year schools charge about 2700 per year

some public 4 years are around 7000 per year absent any financial aid. In some highschools you can earn some college credit. I have a nephew who got a full 4 year scholarship with board at their public university by having a good high school GPA.

Other schools can run as high as 35000 per year minus any financial aid and some of these schools may be better for making connections or for job opportunities.

[Orrex]

3. Hasn't been worth it for at least 15 years, and probably a lot longer

Unfortunately, that's as far back as I've been paying attention to the subject, so I can't comment further than that.

[bluestate10]

14. I am not sure that I agree with you.

There are some enormous success stories of recent college grads that turned their training into enterprises. One person started up a company, grew it to $1 billion in revenues, sold it and started up a second company that is approaching $1 in revenues, the man is around 26 years old as of this writing. Both of his companies are two of the most employee centric companies operating on the web. People that wait for companies to hire them are going to get screwed in the modern economy, people who recognize that they have special talents and who know how to use the internet can build large companies from nothing, building jobs and providing benefits in the process.

[Orrex]

40. Anyone can be struck by lightning

I know a great many people with college degrees who have either been entirely unable to apply them in professional life or else have wound up so crippled by debt as a result of college that they'd have been significantly better off without going in the first place.

People that wait for companies to hire them are going to get screwed in the modern economy, people who recognize that they have special talents and who know how to use the internet can build large companies from nothing, building jobs and providing benefits in the process.

Forgive me, but that's the Horatio Algier delusion that enables the media to blame the unemployed for their unemployment.

For every up-from-nothing success story that you can name, I'm sure that just about everyone here can name 1000 rags-to-rags stories that have little to do with a "wait for companies to hire them" attitude.

[bluestate10]

48. I am not trying to blame unemployed.

I know there are enormous opportunities available for those that grab them. I also know that many people are not comfortable with the uncertainty involved with starting up businesses. I don't subscribe to the "up by the bootlaces" school of thought, but I do know that if we want to create a better world for workers, we have to move outside of our comfort zones.

[Orrex]

52. That last statement reveals your lack of understanding

Everyone who's lost a job in the last, say, four years has been forcibly driven from their comfort zone. Practically no one currently hunting for a job is saying "I will only accept a job that's just like the one I left." Most--especially the long-term unemployed--would happily accept a job that allows them to maintain such frivolous comfort zones as "a roof over my family's heads" and "food on the table."

If you really think that high unemployment is due to the unwillingness of the unemployed to think outside the box, then you are blaming the unemployed.

[Yupster]

58. There have been lots of studies to answer this question

I think for most people you're probably right.

Overall, it depends on your major and future employment.

There are many people getting four year degrees for jobs that will never pay enough to justify the degree.

There are also many jobs where the four years of entry experience would have helped you more than the four years of college, even ignoring the cost.

One example of this is journalism. You are much better getting a reporter job writing obits and bowling scores right out of being editor of your high school paper than going to four years of college getting a journalism degree. The people running smaller papers would rather teach you their way than listen to how you did it at Tech.

There was a major business study a few years ago that said an MBA was not worth it. The two years experience would have gotten you further ahead.

[bluestate10]

4. Depends upon the person.

Any training can be utilized if a person is creative. The internet has removed barriers that used to exist, such a having products sold through a middleman, or publishing a book.

You likely have unique talents that you can share with other people via training videos or books. You also likely have talents that will either allow you to start a business or be a critical person in a startup business. Your degree is only a start, how you use the training that you got is more important to you.

Don't let the debt paralyze you. Work out payment plans that will not have you suffering. If you utilize the unique talents that I am sure that you have (you just need to recognize that), wiping out the debt will not be a problem.

[Buddyblazon]

13. Oh...my debt is fine.

Shortly upon leaving college, I took a job with the Colorado Student Loan Program.

The wonderful ladies in my office heard me talking about my massive loan debt and immediately jumped into action:

1st. Made me consolidate all my loans through the ED.

2nd. Taught me all about my payment options.

3rd. Made sure I knew that the ED would ALWAYS work with for some type of payment no matter the size.

4th. Made me very aware of how the system totally screws you if you go into default on your student loans.


I cover them, no problem, when the correct income adjusted payments are made.

The biggest bummer is that the amount I generally pay that has been agreed upon with my income...doesn't do anything to the principle.


Although this last time I submitted my income contingency request...they told me as long as I continue to pay...the new rules will write off the remainder of the balance in 20 years.

At that point, I should be close to retirement.


Think about how absolutely ridiculous that is though. FOREVER indebted to them.

[bluestate10]

18. Take a few hours alone and sit down and access special talents that you have.

Is there something that you love to do and you see that other people can use but is not available to them? Do you have special crafts like wood or metal working, writing or painting? You can use your talent and set up a commercial site on ETSY.com to sell your products. Instead of rolling your eye to this suggestion, take a few hours to think through how you are unique.

[Orrex]

42. You've got to be kidding

Do you even know how Etsy works?

Please give me a citation showing the percentage of Esty members who actually derive meaningful income from it.

It's a terrific way to rake in a few bucks each month in exchange for hundreds of monthly hours of effort, that's for sure.

[bluestate10]

50. I have not had to use the site for my business activities.

But people that have were satisfied with the site. Like anything else, good ideas and good execution determines whether an effort fails of succeeds. Hard work alone does not cut it, although it helps.

[Orrex]

54. Then you admit that you have a non-representative sample

Ask a broad cross-section of Etsy users how much they've raked in. You'll get a much more realistic picture of the situation, instead of consulting only the statistically small number of success stories.

[CTyankee]

65. I hear what you are saying. I am retired, but when I created a poetry course for the Institute

for Learning in Retirement for my area, I was asked by an English professor friend of mine if I would be interested in teaching it at her college. I created the course, entitled "The Poet Laureate and the Inaugural Poet" around the time that Obama was inaugurated, comparing the poetry of Kay Ryan, our Poet Laureate at the time, and Elizabeth Alexander, Obama's inaugural poet.

Because I am happily retired and like to see my grandkids often, I declined the opportunity. I preferred teaching it as a volunteer, on a limited time basis, with a private, nonprofit group. However, if I needed a job, I would at least have that chance. It made me think anew about a talent I never really thought I had.

[spin]

5. Not if your job can be outsourced...

You need to work in a field which requires hands on work that can't be accomplished by someone in India.

You can also work for the defense industry on a highly classified program.

Here's a link to "Well-Paid Jobs That Won't Be Outsourced":

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/06/25/well-paid-jobs-that-won-t-be-outsourced/

[Crazy Dave]

8. I saw three careers on there where people I know weren't outsourced...

But they were laid off two years ago and are still out of work.

[spin]

24. I think the economy will finally turn around this year ...

hopefully your acquaintances will find work this year.

[Crazy Dave]

32. Things are looking up

You couldn't get a job at McDonalds or Walmart two years ago but now there's only a four to six month wait.

[NNN0LHI]

7. I think it depends a lot on what you plan on doing

If the plan is to be a doctor, lawyer or other professional and have the money to bankroll it college is a must.

If the plan is to be a factory worker, appliance salesman or other normal job I don't think college is that important.

If you are thinking about HVAC, plumbing or welding a trade school might make more sense.

Don

[Crazy Dave]

16. You'd be surprised

I read the craigslist and other local job classifieds here in my town daily and almost all of the low-rent, low-paying employers are feeling like they are very important now. For dishwashers they want someone with two years of college, a professional resume and cover letter, ten years continuous and verifiable employment, drug and world-wide background check and a two page essay saying why you should be the one they hire.

Professional employers are still acting professional but they are only hiring people that already have jobs.

[NNN0LHI]

36. I kind of knew things have change somewhat

The Ford plant that hired me two months before I graduated from high school in 1973 now requires two years of college for new hires to work production.

Don

[treestar]

44. Is that real and common?

anyone who'd need all that for a dishwasher would be a crappy business person. If they waste time like that, the company in question is doomed.

[Crazy Dave]

56. Very common

You should see some of the ridiculous demands the lower level employers demand these days when only two years ago they were begging for help and hiring illegals.

From what I've seen it's pretty much isolated to those types of business. I met a gentleman at a job fair last year who had drove a fork lift in a warehouse for 17 years and got laid off. He saw an ad for a fork lift driver advertised and went to apply. Sure enough, "where's your resume?", "where did you go to college?", "have you ever had even a parking ticket?", I'm kidding about the last question but you get the idea. These low-rents have never felt so important and empowered in their entire lives and now they can have vindication. Having someone sitting in front of them who used to make $50,000 a year now applying for their $7.25 an hour position really makes their day.

[Orrex]

70. +1 and...

It's not just the dishwashing jobs, either. Search for jobs in accounting, for instance. You need years of experience and a master's degree to land a $21K job with minimal benefits.


Your post--horrifying though it is--is exactly true and correct.

[elleng]

9. Doesn't have to be that way, but we DO have to be wise,

re: how we pay for educ, as well as what we study.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Direct ROI depends on the field

Notionally techies make more than non techies. Nursing was hot for a while, less these days. ROTC scholarships are a good route if you are willing to serve afterward. Many states have special programs for instate students. I don't know of many degree programs that are so superior to what most instate schools offer to be worth the increased cost.

I believe that there is more to higher education that subsequent marketability. Otherwise college would be nothing but a trade school. However not to consider it would be foolish. There is balance there that each individual needs to find.

It is quite possible to be well educated without getting a four year college degree. Mike Holmes in Canada is really encouraging young people to go into skilled trades, and I believe there is a lot of merit in that. Today that often means getting the equivalent of getting an AA along the way and nothing stops anyone from continuing with low cost extension or online classes

We took on all of our kids' significant college expenses. It hurt financially, but it gave them a clean start. Their mother and I had that and felt we owed it to the next generation. I hope they will be able to do that for their children.

[pipoman]

11. There are ways to pick up many college credits cheaply.

Community colleges, technical schools and the like can cut thousands off of state university tuition at the bachelors level. A bachelors is required for many jobs. There are still good companies who will assist with tuition for getting a masters or phd after you have worked for them for a while. The value of education is in the opportunity afforded a college grad and denied a non college grad, not in the knowledge obtained in the process of getting the degree. I know people who have little education who can think circles around other college grads I know.

[niceypoo]

12. What kind of stupid question is that?

What 'cons'? Yeah, if you get a PHD in medicine, you might have $120k in loans. My college loans cost me under $30k, about the cost of a new car.

[Buddyblazon]

22. Okay...

don't act like an "out of sight, out of mind" republican. Just because it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I already said that I think education is very important.

I, however, just don't think that it's very wise financial decision anymore. It will cost you tens of thousands in interest now. Way more than enough to put a substantial down payment on a house or a piece of land. The return on your investment is slow and low.

And I think that's how our corporate masters want it be. Just another move in making us all slave labor.

[niceypoo]

29. Im a republican because I see college as good?

The return on your investment is low? College is a stupid investment? Your joking, right? Out of sight out of mind? What do you base this on? College makes us 'slave labor?'

You have everything exactly backwards.

[Buddyblazon]

35. No...

I said you were ACTING (not that you were) like a Republican with a, "Fuck you, I got mine.", attitude.

In your initial statement you basically tell us that your loans are only 30k. That's YOUR balance. Remember that. Many people have quite a bit more, including myself. I could give you phone numbers to dozens more of my friends that owe more than you.

And I will now state for the THIRD FUCKING TIME that I think an education is important. It just don't know how good of an investment it is anymore.


And yes...the return on my investment has been low. "College is a stupid investment?". I would've done better taking that money and starting a business.

And you can put a fucking sock in it. You were the first to insult me. You insult me...you'll get it right back. I'm no Christian, nor have I ever believed in "turn the other cheek". If there is anything I despise...it's a bully. Bully me...you're just going to get one in the teeth.

So...would you like to go some more rounds? We can sit here and swing e-dick all day if you want.

[niceypoo]

51. I have a 'fuck you I've got mine' attitude?

How is that, because I say college is a good thing? Most businesses fail within the first year. A college degree lasts a lifetime.

Attacking me personally to avoid answering a few basic questions only makes your position look even weaker.

[Orrex]

53. In point of fact, student loans last a lifetime

A college degree--or at least the value of it--might last half that long if you're lucky.

[niceypoo]

55. Both your claims are false

And you know it.

[Orrex]

66. Really?

Try this: stop paying on your student loans due to financial hardship. How long before your lenders say "well, she's suffered enough" and they let you go?


Elsewhere in this thread the math has been spelled out very plainly for you: the cost of college often greatly exceeds the ability of the graduate to repay within the span of a single lifetime, or else the expense of the loan is so egregious that it undermines every other financial decision undertaken by the debtor. This isn't a matter of some 35-year-old who signs onto a bad mortgage; it's often a 17-year-old who's been brainwashed into believing that college is the only way to succeed in life and that loans are the only way to pay for college.

It would be nice if reality mirrored the rose-colored pollyanna fantasy you've described. However, what you're imagining is entirely contradicted by everything I've experienced in the past few decades.

[niceypoo]

71. Yes, really

And the census bureau agrees with me:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=usgovinfo&cdn=newsissues&tm=38&f=10&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf">The Big Payoff: Educational Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings

In 1999, average annual earnings ranged from $18,900 for high school dropouts to $25,900 for high school graduates, $45,400 for college graduates and $99,300 for the holders of professional degrees (medical doctors, dentists, veterinarians and lawyers).

Over a work life, earnings for a worker with a bachelor's degree compared with one who had just a high school diploma increase by about $1 million for non-Hispanic Whites and about $700,000 for African Americans; Asians and Pacific Islanders; and Hispanics.

Persons with doctoral degrees earn an average of $3.4 million during their working life, while those with professional degrees do best at $4.4 million.

"At most ages, more education equates with higher earnings, and the payoff is most notable at the highest educational levels," said Jennifer Cheeseman Day, co-author of the report.

Right now it is very easy to get a hardship deferment. I had one up until this September. The problem is with PRIVATE college loaners, which are basically loan-sharks.

[Orrex]

74. A hardship deferment is a temporary fix for a permanent problem

When it runs out, Sallie Mae will happily show up at your door with her baseball bat to demand payment.


It must also be mentioned that your figures come at the height of the Clinton-era economic boom-time and ignore everything that's happened in the past 11 years. I'll be very interested to see how the pendulum swings for the 2010 census.


More particularly, I know hundreds of college graduates who are busting their asses to make $28K per year.

[niceypoo]

77. Show me your facts and figures

You are claiming that college grads dont crack 30k a year? Link?

[Orrex]

78. Not saying that none can do it

I'm stating that I personally know hundreds who haven't been able to do so, and not because they're lazy or unimaginative or unfocused.

Sorry if that's not good enough for you, but I don't have the means to assemble a peer-reviewed census of these individuals, nor do I suspect that they'd be willing to sign statements simply to contradict your obsolete citation.

[Buddyblazon]

61. Let's go over each of your questions:

Im a republican because I see college as good?

No....that's not what I wrote. I wrote that you should top ACTING like a Republican. And the reason I said that is because you absolutely have a "fuck you, I got mine attitude". You can say you don't. You're first post "My college loans cost me under $30k, about the cost of a new car.", quickly makes clear that that is your attitude. Your right wing, NANNY NANNY BOO BOO moment. Yes....that is YOU, ACTING like a REPUBLICAN. Empathy? "Fuck you, I got mine."

The return on your investment is low?

I've averaged about 25k a year since I left college 12 years ago. I owe 72k. You do the math. And tell if you think my return was low. The guy who got me into the industry is several years younger than me, higher on the food chain in our industry and makes about 60k. He started right out of HS. You tell me what his return on his 0 college investment is. Better than mine? My boss? Also started right out of high school his about 5 years older than me. Been doing this for close to 25 years. He makes about 80k. His investment in college was 0$. You tell me who go a better return?

College is a stupid investment?

I didn't write that anywhere. You stating I did...is fucking disgusting. Apologize now.

Your joking, right? Out of sight out of mind? What do you base this on?

Not joking. And I pointed out above why you are out of sight out of mind.

College makes us 'slave labor?'

College now does. Education does not. And if I was going to school and the by-product was simply I became a brighter person that can contribute to our society, than no...it wouldn't.

However, going to college has become a racket where if I want to take part I have to take out thousands in loans.

Yes. Fuck yes. Hell mother fucking god damn mother fuck yes it is a part of the system that is trying to turn the middle and lower class in this country into slave labor.

[niceypoo]

63. Lets go over what you said:

"Don't act like an "out of sight, out of mind" republican" Translation: If I disagree with you, Im a republican or Im acting like a republican

"I, however, just don't think that it's very wise financial decision anymore" Translation: college is a stupid investment.

"And I think that's how our corporate masters want it be. Just another move in making us all slave labor." Translation: College makes us slave labor

I notice you dropped the, 'I've got mine' lie that you made up about me.

[Orrex]

69. If you object to "slave labor"

Perhaps you would prefer the phrase "indentured servitude." In practical terms, that's what we're talking about here: a person contracts for a portion of college tuition in exchange for many years' worth of repayment which, ultimately, will be pulled right out of one's paycheck if repayment falls behind.

How, in your view, does this differ substantively from classic indentured servitude?

[niceypoo]

73. You could make that argument about car payments

Or rent.

"Over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million"

http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=usgovinfo&cdn=newsissues&tm=38&f=10&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf">Facts are facts.

[Orrex]

75. You're entirely incorrect, once again demonstrating that you don't understand the issue

Twice citing out-of-date statistics doesn't make those statistics more correct or current.

And the indentured servitude imposed by student loans is nothing at all like rent or a car note.

You can declare bankruptcy and erase outstanding rent and car payments. You can wipe out medical bills and credit card payments and personal loans and foreclosure debt the same way.


But student loans? They'll be with you until you die or are permanently and totally disabled.

[niceypoo]

81. Show me YOUR source

Here are some newer stats:

No change from the 'out of date statistics' that you railed against.

[Orrex]

84. Thank you for the more current info

Still doesn't match to my experience. Are those figures a nationwide aggregate? They don't seem to match to Pennsylvania, for instance, and certainly not to anywhere in The Rust Belt.

For the record, I have a bachelor's degree, and no job that I've been able to find in the past three years of hard, dedicated searching would provide anything like $1,025 per week. Maybe after you've been in a position for a period of years, but otherwise? Not so much.

[niceypoo]

91. They are a national aggregate

If you look at third world statistics you see a similar trend, except the wage gap between grads and non grads is much wider. If the economy in the US completely collapses, and it is inevitable given the amount of debt the US holds, only those with advanced degrees will live anything approaching a middle class lifestyle.

Education opens doors that stay closed otherwise. You may not be completely satisfied at where you are now, but because you are educated there are more options that you can go for compared to the non graduate. You have an edge over non graduates, even if it isn't yet wholly apparent yet. A college degree helps you get a foot in the door.

[Orrex]

96. I've been pondering this, and I think that the stats would be more useful if broken down further

That is, does a "bachelor's degree" mean any bachelor's degree? Is a medieval studies degree as profitable--in the long term--as a business degree? If not, then the stats can't really be used except as the most basic guideline. Not all degrees are created equal, and an MBA making $325,000 will offset quite a few communications majors each earning $17K at Starbucks, for instance.

[niceypoo]

100. "Any bachelors degree" will make you stand out in an interview but...

If someone gets a degree in a field with no job prospects, it is their own fault. Most people get 'useless' degrees as a springboard into graduate school.

[Orrex]

103. That's blaming the victim again

In a situation with three parties involved, two parties have access to all facts and details, while the third party has access to very little, by comparison.

The colleges that press 17 and 18 year-olds into useless degrees bear some responsibility for their subsequent unemployability, ethically if not legally. Never, for instance, did my education counselor say "you know, you won't be able to get a job worth shit with this degree; perhaps you should reconsider." Nor was I ever told that my degree would have no use other than steering me further into debt a la grad school. Instead, my scrupulous advisers were happy to stand back and let my tuition payments roll in without a word of caution.

The schools that accept hundreds of millions of dollars on behalf of these young students are in a position of fiduciary responsibility. It is unconscionable that such schools would knowingly offer a useless product without clearly disclosing it as useless. At the very least, if such degrees will serve only as grad school springboards (if that), then the schools should reveal this as well.

Additionally, lenders should be required to publish amortization schedules so that the 18-year-old who's about to sign his life away is able to see how a $15K loan can turn into a $45K anchor around his neck when he's trying to tread water in a dying economy ten years down the road.

That last part isn't my story, by the way, but it hardly seems far removed from reality.

[Buddyblazon]

113. Acting like a Republican again...

damn...at some point....all this walking and quacking...well...you know.

[Buddyblazon]

92. No...

If you act like a "fuck you, I got mine" person...you're acting like a republican. I never once called you a Republican. I asserted you were providing us with typical right wing characteristic, because you were. "Acting" and "being" however...two entirely different things.


"I, however, just don't think that it's very wise financial decision anymore" and, "Translation: college is a stupid investment.", is you're manipulating and twisting of my words. Again, it's disgusting. I demand your apology.


"And I think that's how our corporate masters want it be. Just another move in making us all slave labor." Translation: College makes us slave labor.

College, I believe absolutely....wait...why the fuck am I going over the same exact shit we just went over? Seriously, do I have to go over this again and again with you?

And no. You made a "fuck you, I've got mine" statement right off the bat:

"What 'cons'? Yeah, if you get a PHD in medicine, you might have $120k in loans. My college loans cost me under $30k, about the cost of a new car."

[madinmaryland]

76. You took out at least $72K in loans to go to college?

Can I ask what you majored in and why you took out that much in loans?

[Orrex]

79. $30 in loans could easily balloon into that much

I've seen $20K worth of loans turn into $53K, for instance.

[madinmaryland]

80. That might be your case, but I asked the question of the OP.

Thanks again for your reply.

[Orrex]

82. Well, I know how much you like to hear from me.

:blush:

[madinmaryland]

86. Question for your (not the brazilian question)...

Do you have outstanding college loans and how much did you take out in college loans.

In fairness, I did take out one college loan that my father told me to do to build my credit coming out of college. It was a loan for $2,500 in 1983. My parents paid my tuition (95% discount on tuition for employees of the university) and helped me with room and board.

[Orrex]

89. I'd rather not give specifics here, but I'll say this:

After paying steadily for years and knocking my total loan down by about $8,000, I now owe about $9,000 more than I borrowed.

[niceypoo]

85. Only if you dont pay

Or if you rely on PRIVATE college loans which amount to little more than loan sharking.

Consider Federal Loans as a First Resort – Private Loans Last Resort

[Orrex]

87. Also if you *can't* pay

They'll happily double the amount of your loans even if you stop paying because you need to take care of food, heat, and rent.

One of the creditors in question is Sallie Mae which, prior to 1997, operated under a federal charter. The other creditor is PHEAA.


Anyway, blaming the debtor for borrowing (or for only being able to borrow) from private lenders is--once again--blaming the victim.

[madinmaryland]

88. That's what I am wondering about..

Why would someone take money from the loan sharks to get a degree that may be of little use in paying off the loan. Once you take out the loan, it really does become a business decision about how best to pay off the loan.

[Orrex]

90. Sorry to jump in again, but...

The problem is that there are just-barely-18-year-olds signing onto these loans and rolling into a college that endlessly sings the praises of a liberal arts education.

Student loan programs are every bit as predatory as the worst credit card company, but student loans also get to enjoy their unique bankruptcy-proof status.

[madinmaryland]

93. One of the issues I have, is where are the parents at this point.

When I did take out my paltry loan, my father was required to co-sign the loan. It is absolutely reprehensible that parents either approve these loans or have no say in the origination of these loans.

I will not allow my daughter nor myself to get sucked into these loans when she goes to college.

[Buddyblazon]

114. Let your teeny tiny brain wrap around this...

I have never defaulted on my student loans. And I've been making continual payments since about 2003.

Let's see if you can figure out the rest.

Though I'm sure you'll tell me how you would have never let that happen. And how you were smart enough only to take a small amount. And how you're a better person than I.

[Buddyblazon]

94. I went to school first for business mgt.....

several years in, I switched to music (a young and foolish mistake that I would not repeat if I had to do it over).

Music school I found not only exponentially harder than business school, but between classes, required ensembles, performance classes and all of the hours and hours spent practicing on both my primary and secondary instruments, it left me 10-15 hours a week to work (a job that I could fortunately run hours of exercises while on the clock). There just was no more time. So...like an idiot...I took out loans. To help pay for food, for shelter, for bus fair and laundry and clothes as well as my books and upkeep on my instruments.

I'd tell myself, "the education, the knowledge is more important than this dollar number."

What a fucking idiot I feel like now.

on edit:

The total was about 60k when I was done. That was 12 years ago. It has slowly crept upward since.

[Buddyblazon]

112. I take it back...

it has now crept up to 80k.

[Buddyblazon]

47. And btw...

you may be "niceypoo". I, however, am not.

I am a professional stage manager. My career is based on two things:

1. My ability to be a diplomat and congenial host and liaison 98% of the time.

and

2. My ability to, during the other 2% of times, be the biggest prick in a room of thousands of people.

So you tell me...will it be door number 1...or door number 2?

[niceypoo]

64. Mindless rhetoric

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

98. What kind of rude response is that, "niceypoo"?

Is that how you learned to discuss issues in that college of yours?

Many students are carrying far more than $30,000 in loans, and if -- like many young people these days -- they find themselves jobless or cleaning houses after college, they will have good reason for questioning the investment, every month when they make their required loan payment.

[niceypoo]

101. College isn't worth the investment, right?

[pnwmom]

102. Financially, it isn't for ALL students. It depends on how great

their investment is, and whether they end up in a job/career that requires the degree.

One of my relatives has a BA and an MA and has been working in a factory for the last 15 years. He's convinced the money spent on his college was wasted.

And many young people graduating into the abyss of today's job market are already questioning their investments.

[Buddyblazon]

116. So tell me when I will get a return on my investment of

60k. Seriously.

I have one of the more prestigious positions in the region, at a high profile venue that gets very large name acts (we've had Bowie, NIN, The Pixies, Willie....Led Zepplin even played the venue decades ago before it was restored). I have never cleared more than 14k in a single year from the job, though I'm constantly bombarded by people that come through the building asking if I would be willing to give them my job once I make production manager.

So...from your charts...tell me again when I will make back my initial 60k...that has now ballooned to 80k.

[NRaleighLiberal]

15. No single answer to this.....many variables.

Such as -

Is the college education solely for financial future gains/jobs, or for personal development?
Field of study?
Stopping at a BA, or moving on to a MS/MA or PhD?
Personal/family financial situation

I tend to think that more education is always better - finishing a degree is a confirmation of one's ability to finish something, particularly the higher degrees, where a thesis based upon an original idea is required.

But times have changed to much - as a boomer (college between 1974-1982), my BA cost me essentially 250. per semester - not a great school, but good enough to get me to an Ivy for the PhD. And back then, they actually paid grad students in some fields (mine was chemistry) - so my 9 years of schooling put me in very little debt and essentially guaranteed me a job.

Flip to more recent - one of my daughters went to a great school, then her Master, Peace Corps - has incurred significant debt and she is struggling to find a good job - at nearly 30! When I discuss this with her, she never regrets the education - she is proud of what she accomplished, but is frustrated it hasn't led to more than it has....and she doesn't know how/when to climb out from under her mountain of debt.

The paradigm has shifted - many will always find an advanced education valuable, but the cost/benefit ratio has changed things considerably.

[TBF]

23. This worked for me as well -

went to my local university (which happened to be very good) - for roughly $800 per semester undergrad. I qualified for GI Bill due to my dad's disabilities (disabled war veteran), and got some grant/loans. I worked part time, and borrowed about $1,000. per year undergrad. That has long been paid off.

For graduate school I had some employment reimbursement, plus loans and I'm still paying that off - but I did work for awhile in my field and had good salaries (especially in the late 90's), and our family income now is good so we are paying off the graduate loans. We consolidated everything as much as possible and spread out the payments.

Our hope is that we can send our kids wherever they want to go, but that is our dream only because their grandparents have college accounts for them. It will depend upon what they want to do though - if my son loves cars and wants to race or be a mechanic then the training would be different that what I had.

[bluestate10]

25. Has your daughter considered going into foreign service with the State Department?

Her Peace Corps experience looks like it would be useful in that area.

[TBF]

17. I've never believed that everyone should go to college - nor do they want to.

As a country I'd like to see more money (loans whatever...) put towards trade schools and community college (including medical technician programs, computer classes, and other skills).

[bluestate10]

26. I agree, some people are better off gaining a trade. nt

[bemildred]

19. As a general thing, no.

It is very expensive and does not guarantee economic survival, let alone success. If you are smart enough to aim for the technical upper classes, then it might pay for itself over time.

In the current economic environment who you know is more important than what you know.

[mike_c]

20. if one only views education and self-fulfillment in "investment" terms...

...then perhaps it isn't-- the worth of any investment varies depending upon the persons who invest. Even then, value has multiple components. From the narrowest possible perspective-- monetary return on monetary investment-- higher education still has some surprising deals, even in America. The California State University certainly comes to mind, as well as a number of other public, state institutions. It is indeed still quite possible to obtain an undergrad degree at the CSU that boosts one's lifetime earning potential significantly higher than the cost of attendance for four or five years.

But that's the narrowest possible perspective upon the value of higher education. Some of the most important forms of personal growth occur within the learning communities that colleges and universities foster. Higher education achieves much more than vocational training, or at least it should-- and students should seek much more from their university years than vocational training and future employment. Those four or five years can be a remarkable opportunity for personal growth. They can set the stage for a lifetime of fulfillment if the opportunity is used well. I know this to be true-- it is the story of my own life. I dropped out of high school, essentially in eighth grade, was in and out of juvi, ultimately spent half my adulthood working in various trades, then spent ten years working my way through college and grad school. I've spent significant parts of my life laboring on both sides of the divide that investment marks, and there's no doubt from my perspective-- higher education is one of the best investments anyone can make in this country. The return on investment goes WAY beyond monetary rewards!

[Buddyblazon]

27. Well...

with the war on the middle class, and the lack of incoming salaries for all us these days....I think it IMPOSSIBLE to not think about the monetary return. Everything my wife and I do now is done with the thought of, "how much is this going to cost us? will this financial decision possibly lead to the loss of our house?". It's great to say that an education is "invaluable" and I believe that. But if it ultimately doesn't pay my bills and keep us from going homeless, it doesn't matter. I can only dip my diploma in ketchup and eat it once.

I went to business school...and later music school (amazingly enough...I now work in the music business lol).

If I had to do it all over again, never even would have considered college. Would've graduated HS and gone straight to work in my industry and probably save myself $250k + when it's all said and done.

Unless you're wealthy, college just doesn't make financial sense anymore....and I think that's horribly fucked up. I feel like it's an intentional way of eroding the middle class.

[bluestate10]

30. Your field is a tough one. But.

Given your business and music training, have you considered publishing the music of struggling acts and setting a website where the public can listen to samples (don't allow downloads unless they are paid for)? You surely know more about the costs than I do, my field is science and business. But if you think out of the normal box, you may find that you can set up a thriving business for little upfront costs. My only advice is be ethical with artists and customers, even if the situation presents itself, do not cheat or shortchange either.

[Buddyblazon]

37. Actually...

I think music downloads should be free.

Why? Because it fucks the record labels, one of the most corrupt business organizations to bless the face of this planet.

Acts make money on the sale of merchandise. This is why most new bands tour tour tour (aside from obviously getting exposure which free downloads of music partly provides) If you really like a band...buy their t-shirts, stickers, hats at their shows...or heck...even off their website.

THAT'S money that will mostly go to a band.

And yes, I've thought many times about ideas like yours. It's just much more complicated than that. I have spent hours and hours contemplating ideas such as yours, and most likely will continue to.

Thanks for the encouragement. Happy New Year.

[bluestate10]

28. GREAT post. nt.

[bemildred]

34. I went to school all of my life for it's own sake.

As entertainment and enlightenment, it was cheap, I feel lucky, and I love college towns.

But that was before they created the financial aid bubble, so it was not inordinately expensive, I never went into debt. The problem is that now we are starting young people off with a huge debt burden and no way to ever pay it off, and many of them never even get the degree.

[Saturday]

21. I don't know.

I'll ask my college educated child who now drives a truck for a living.

[UndertheOcean]

31. It an ideal world , if you are a straight A student and get SAT scores in the top 5% percentile

then your college should be totally free.

[w4rma]

60. In an ideal world, education would be free from K-16 (Kindergarden through a Bachelor's). nt

[aikoaiko]

33. Tuition is free for GA public colleges if you grad with a high school GPA > 3.0

We call it the HOPE scholarship and it been around for almost 20 years or so. It pays for all public college tuition, some fees, and $300 for books per semester.

You can move to GA, pay the first year's tuition and then earn HOPE if you have a 3.0 GPA.

You can get a good degree in your area of choice for very little money in GA.

Yes, a college tuition is worth the investment, but it depend very much on how much you are required to pay and the earning potential of the degree.

[SheilaT]

38. It really depends.

If you think that graduating with a major in English or anthropology will necessarily lead to a good job, you may be a bit delusional. But a lot of entry-level jobs that can lead to a good career absolutely require a college degree, no exceptions allowed. And the college degree needs to be a Bachelor's, not a two-year degree. I have been unable to even be considered for many jobs I'm otherwise well qualified for because of not getting the bachelor's.

But two-year colleges are excellent for vocational kinds of training, and many kids who've been bamboozled into the "You absolutely MUST get a college degree" would be far better off getting the vocational training. And then, even the two year degree, such as a paralegal one, may still not be enough because larger law firms want their paralegals to have the bachelor's.

And yeah, I have a son who graduated cum laude from a pretty decent school and is still doing pizza delivery. But he also did not look for a job using his degree (psych major, marketing minor) and since he's currently supporting himself, I'm absolutely fine with that. He's 23 now, and I don't expect he'll still be delivering pizza at 33. And if he is, well it's his life and he's more than smart enough to figure it all out himself.

[Nikia]

57. I have seen many jobs requiring BA or BS degrees

That probably didn't require those degrees in the past and probably would not be technically necessary. One of the companies I interviewed with had job openings because they were firing their non college educated employees, even though one of them had worked in that position with the company for 15 year (To be fair, they gave them six years to meet that requirement with full tution reimbursement).
There are many more college graduates these days. Employers take advantage of that. Non college educated often are stuck in low level jobs for the rest of their working career. That doesn't mean that the same thing doesn't happen to some college educated people though.

[OutNow]

39. Open a 529 plan now

Yes, college can be very expensive even for state run universities. The cost to attend a private (i.e. small) college is enormous.

I worked my way through college. Took almost 8 years, 2 courses a semester plus summer classes. My employer had a close relationship with a small local college and paid all my tuition. I left school with a good degree and no debt. Years later I realized the "no debt" part was a key issue as I saw my friends struggling to pay off college loans at the same time they were starting to have children, try to buy a home, etc.

When my grandson was born I opened a 529 plan for him. The plan is to have enough money in the account to cover most of his expenses by the time he's 18. This is one way to allow him to set his education goals without the pressure of debt.

[Codeine]

41. Not every college costs that much.

An awful lot of people come out of school with a very manageable debt load.

[tammywammy]

45. Very true

Not everyone takes out $100k in loans.

[ZombieHorde]

43. How much is being a smarter, better educated person worth to you? nt

[Buddyblazon]

49. Thats not a wholly accurate statement.

The guy who got me into this industry took one college class. He's now tops in our industry and clears darn close to six digits.

And guess what. Not one single dollar of student loans hanging over his head. He just started in this industry at 17, and just got so busy he didn't need college.

[customerserviceguy]

46. Rarely

And that's only if you train for something that there's a demand for, such as nursing or engineering.

Education is a good thing, but you don't have to build giant edifices in order to dispense it. In fact, right now, you're sitting in front of the best tool the world has ever had to disseminate knowledge.

Some places even charge as much for it as the places with the edifices, and others willingly pay for a piece of paper that says they spent a certain amount of time in front of a screen.

[w4rma]

59. Not unless you have a long term plan to make a whole lot of money from it.

Because education no longer, for the average American, nets a profit. Economically it is better to just work. But, society needs educated citizens so this degradation of the usefulness of an education, economically, is very bad for society.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

62. Education generally costs what it's worth.

What do I mean?

If i wasn't worth it... would people pay it? Probably not. Some yes, but most people no.
Most colleges fill out their enrollment at the prices they charge. Why should they charge less?

[niceypoo]

67. Lets see what the Census Bureau says about this:

How much is higher education worth in cold hard money? A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma, according to a recent report from the U.S. Census Bureau.

The report titled http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=usgovinfo&cdn=newsissues&tm=38&f=10&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf">"The Big Payoff: Educational Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings" (.pdf) reveals that over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million.

Persons with doctoral degrees earn an average of $3.4 million during their working life, while those with professional degrees do best at $4.4 million.

"At most ages, more education equates with higher earnings, and the payoff is most notable at the highest educational levels," said Jennifer Cheeseman Day, co-author of the report.

[JI7]

68. Depends on your reasons for going to College

overall people who go to college do better financially than those who don't.

but if you think you will have it easy that isn't true. especially depending on what you major in.

i think if you love what you are majoring in and value the knowledge and experience that you gain in itself without consideration for money it's worth it.

i kmow a few people who graduated and have a hard time finding jobs. but the ones who majored in something they love don't regret it.

i know a few who major in various business majors like marketing, business administration etc just because they think it will help with a job. and then they find they can't get much. for people like this i don't think the debt is worth it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. they take the loan out of your social security.

People joke about getting their student loan money taken out of Social Security.
Dear Hubby went to one of those proprietary ripoff schools (The Art Institutes) and got a 2 yr degree in video production. He already had a BS and MS in physics.

Degree did nothing to help him find a job; now he's drawing Social Security, age 64, and they take the payments out of that.


In my case, I went to night school and earned a Juris Doctor; was unable to get a legal assistant job after years of looking, in spite of having a BA in biology (useful for malpractice cases and murder cases) and having been a legal secretary and a court reporter for years.


I paid for my education on the pay as you go plan.

[Godhumor]

83. Depends on what you want out of school and what degree you decide to pursue

Many careers do not pay well regardless of where you go to school--things like primary and secondary school teaching, social work, etc. require at least a 4 year degree and do not have a huge return on investment. Art and liberal art degrees also are extremely hit or miss depending on where the person plans to end up. People pursue these degrees, hopefully, because they are passionate about the subject matter instead of expecting to make a killing. In my opinion, these are areas where state subsidized schools are great choices (A teacher from a state school and a teacher from Harvard are both going to start on the same step in a public school.).

Other degrees, especially advanced degrees in law, medicine and business, are worth the debt load (depending on what it is the person is trying to do) due to the large upside in potential salary.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

104. Did you read my post just above yours?

I earned a Juris Doctor 25 years ago from a very well regarded private law school. It is a free standing law school not attached to any other university; and is known for cranking out trial lawyers.
I was a court reporter before that, with an AAS degree, that got me a career. However, the stress of working in court was quite horrible, not to mention nasty lawyers and judges who randomly start yelling at court personnel, and I was burned out before I was forty.

I have been unable to get any job using my higher degrees since I earned a BA in Biology 30 years ago and a Juris Doctor 25 years ago.

If our country did not throw away highly educated people, I would be working at a law firm training trial lawyers, since I saw a zillion trials in my years as a court reporter.

They give the Texas Bar twice a year and pass about 2,000 people each time. That's about 4,000 new lawyers in TX that don't have jobs. I think they fired all the legal assistants and paralegals. They didn't want to hire me as a super legal assistant with a J.D.

And the folks made me get a serious degree in a natural science, instead of what I was good at. Since my two heavy duty degrees got me nowhere, I should have gotten a BFA in painting. Would have been more enjoyable.

:banghead:


I also doubt that Etsy is a way to make any money at all.

[Orrex]

106. Clearly your problem is your unwillingness to look outside your comfort zone

Spend an afternoon finding out what's unique about yourself, and everything will start coming up roses, guaranteed!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. That's why I'm extremely skeptical about Etsy.

I have been unable to find a shop to sell my jewelry (beadstringing, not manufacturing). The boutiques seem to be already glutted with nice jewelry, at least on the west side of Houston, where the money is.

[Swamp Rat]

97. Yes. eom

[REP]

99. Getting an education simply for a degree is a poor reason to go to college

Then again, I never worked in the fields in which I have degrees - perhaps I was idealistic about wanting simply to learn something. I also have no student loan debt; I went through college on short-term loans (1/3 up front; 2/3 due at the end of the semester).

[Liberal_in_LA]

105. college grads still make more money than those without, just don't load up on the huge student loans

[aikoaiko]

107. If done wisely, college debt for a degree is still worthwhile.

Most of the horror cases I've read about involve significant unwise decisions by the students. Sometimes people are under the impression that all they need to do is have a degree to get a job. Some of them didn't get jobs because they don't know much, they earned a low GPA, they didn't intern, and they don't do the extras that ensure employment. And then there are those who switch majors once, twice, three times which can increase college loan debt significantly. Or some go to a elite college for a degree where the final tally is 3 or 4 times the entry level salary after graduation.

And yes, there are some who were plain unlucky because a recession changed everything.

Not everyone needs a liberal arts degree to do well career wise, but for many occupations a 4 year degree is a mandatory qualification.

I had quite a few friends take up careers swinging hammers and they made big bucks in the construction booms, but when things went bad they had little to fall back on. Now their backs and knees are in bad shape and climbing on a roof at 40+ is no longer looking good.

I know people who did well without college, but I know many more who struggle because they were locked out of advancement due to a lack of college education.

[Prometheus Bound]

108. I find it's common for people who have a degree to say 'yes' and for those who don't to say 'no'.

But I haven't answered your question.

[DailyGrind51]

110. The trade school graduate who repairs my car is paid more than I do with 2 graduate degrees.

[jeanpalmer]

111. It's important to consider the investment aspect

of an education. Especially today. What's the tradeoff between what I can earn and what my debt will be. Ther schools and the loan sharks will never tell you. They couldn't care less if you end up in debt to your eyeballs. This should be Eizabeth Warren's first task: to establish clear disclosure requirements for students to understand what they're getting into. Hardly any of them understand the debt burden they're taking on. It can become very onerous, and the truth is the schools and the loan sharks don't give a shit. It cries out for a system of disclosure.

[rucky]

115. Just for science/engineering. n/t