Richard Clarke: Osama Bin Ladin's Death is a "Propaganda Victory"

[Kurovski]

"Doesn't mean much for American security" Clarke discusses events on Good Morning America.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/osama-bin-laden-dead-fight-ahead-13508766

[Sherman A1]

1. And there ya go.....

Summed up in a couple of words.

[Kurovski]

2. "emotionally satisfying" but...

things won't change much.

[mmonk]

3. We can't give up the security state. Too profitable.

[Distant Observer]

6. You got it!! And too useful for others, politically.

[LibDemAlways]

55. Damn right. Shortly after Osama's demise was announced, the

media took great delight in proclaiming that security would now need to be "tightened." The makers of the airport nudie scanners and the TSA feel-up guys will be whistling a happy tune for a long time to come.

[myrna minx]

4. Good morning sunshine.

:hug: Don't forget to take a sweater bring a sack lunch because Richard Clarke will now be a villain to some and I suspect this thread may gather in length.

[mmonk]

9. I have mixed feelings about Clarke.

While he exposed the Bush administration in not taking the plane intelligence seriously and other lapses in judgement, Clarke has also been one of those pushing the fear of a Caliphate uniting the Muslim world against the west.

[myrna minx]

11. I agree with you that he's a complicated man- but this place has been so hostile lately

I could see this thread erupting into a flame fest. I just wanted my dearest to remember to bring a sweater - I'm a nag that way. :D

[mmonk]

14. That's entirely proper.

:)

[Kurovski]

19. Good morning. I made us some eggs with mushrooms and marjoram.

So where the f*ck are you? Do i have to give yours to the Cockatoo?

I've been up all night studying, thinking, and making stupid posts in that big stupid thread. You know the one...
the one where no one is making eggs for anybody. ;)

[myrna minx]

32. Merci! - and you always make the best coffee too.

I have to dash for now- but I'll keep the cameo broach that contains your portraiture close to my heart while you defend the fort. Here's the satin ribbon from my hair....

:rofl:

[Kurovski]

34. My beloved...

and here lies my half eaten donut from 2:00 AM. Treasure it 'til agaayn we meet :)

[DCBob]

5. A "propanganda victory" may be significant given that propaganda is an important AQ tactic.

If nothing else this shows that Allah was not protecting bin Laden from the evil satan America which I am sure many thought since we could not get him for so many years.

[Kurovski]

25. One can hope. The most important thing would be to get bases out of Arab nations

That would be best to keep the resentment level low, or at least lower.

Protection from Allah? It could also show that Allah loves his sacred martyrs and brings them home to him. But It hurts my head these days to even think about religious stuff. I'm reduced to exclamations of "Jesus Christ!" and like that there.

I hope Obama makes a speech directed to the Arab nations at some point. They seem to like him better than the guy from Kennebunkport. Arabs like respect. They're odd that way.

[Kolesar]

7. Clarke discounts that certain beatific/voodoo charisma that Bin Laden held over the stupids

Further, bin Laden was a master at planning mass murder. His plots took years to execute. Not every desert dingleberry is going to be able to do that. There has been political infighting in his "original" Al Qaeda organization.

[JVS]

10. Is this a fucking joke?

It's not that hard to come up with the idea of ramming airliners into buildings.

There was one thing that made Bin Laden able to do lot's of things, his fortune.

[MattSh]

63. Maybe you want to read that again?

He said it takes many years to execute a plan, not to come up with an idea. Big difference.

I come up with good ideas all the time. But I'm not a millionaire yet. Maybe if I actually executed a plan I would be? :shrug:

[mmonk]

12. I thought Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of that.

[Kurovski]

18. I thought I read it in a novel.

-- Tom Clancy wrote two bestselling thrillers about a pilot deliberately flying a fuel-laden jet into the Capitol building and killing the President and top leadership (Debt of Honor , 1994; Executive Orders, 1996).

http://www.public-action.com/911/clancy.html

[Art_from_Ark]

22. There have been various so-called "masterminds"

Remember Atta? He was supposedly one of the "masterminds". And who could forget the "mastermind" Al-Zawahiri?
So that makes at least 4 "masterminds"

[Kurovski]

35. I think he was a good leader and trainer.

He was trained by the best himself.

[Solly Mack]

8. K&R

[Distant Observer]

13. Let's not forget: We participated in the creation of bin Laden, the terrorist

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1016957


Thanks to a masterful, commanding, Democratic, President: Al Qaeda is over.
Osama bin Laden provided the spiritual energy and strategic vision for that deadly organization and the global movement. This was rooted in who he was - a prince who became a pauper for his cause -- and what he did -- almost single-handedly lead the mujahideen to victory over the Soviet Empire in Afghanistan.

With his death, Al Qaeda dies.

But, lets not forget that, with our allies the Saudi Rulers (and other financiers in the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), WE CREATED AL QAEDA. We began creating Al Qaeda under a Democratic President (Carter) and continued under a Republican (Reagan).

[Kurovski]

21. Yes, and all because we couldn't enjoy a nice night at the Bolshoi with our Ruski neighbors.

See what happens when we look askance at the arts?

But seriously, we're always fucking up for profit. Well not mine or yours, but that influential 1% we all love so much that we keep voting their pals and helpers into government positions.

That is to say, when they're not outright stealing those elections.

[RainDog]

53. and that, in a nutshell, is the basis of our major problems n/t

[rosesaylavee]

15. Interesting interview - thank you for posting

In addition to OBL's death, massive amounts of information were retrieved from the compound. Hopeful that that information may prevent some future events.

I think it's more than a propaganda victory though. Removing the titular head of a movement will effect some of the lesser committed. Especially when they see how their leader was living. Especially when they ponder whether he used his wife as a shield or did she choose to be that shield.

His not living in a cave but in a mansion will have a greater impact I predict than his death.

[Kurovski]

23. Information would possibly help with security.

It will be an interesting next few months. I'm wishing we could get out of Afghanistan now. What a great big silly!

I heard a blurb from Sec of State Clinton that we will be keeping our war on. I think Americans of all persuasions will be pushing to get out.

:hi:

[mmonk]

47. Hope you are right about Americans pushing to get out.

[Kurovski]

48. I assumed that's what much of the celebration was about. No VE day, but it looked like one.

One step closer. Talk it up on the internet, letters, calls, and who knows?

[Motown_Johnny]

16. In the short term I agree, but in the long term I disagree,

I believe in deterrents. If OBL had never payed any price for the attacks then the long term effect would be to send a message that there is no price to be payed for attacking us.

[Kurovski]

36. That's a good point.

I think high profile leaders caught red handed in mass murder should get theirs.

There's one in texas, and where's that one with the bum ticker? A trial at least.

[malaise]

17. Not sure about that

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42868898#42868802

[mmonk]

20. Shows Bush was more concerned with his war on terror pretext

for the world.

[malaise]

27. or that lovely profitable

Operation Iraqi Liberation

corrected

[Kurovski]

24. If I didn't know better, I'd say It looks like Bush was very nice to Osama BL.

Gave him an opportunity to settle down, get out of the caves, enjoy his wives, etc. Almost like a real pal.

Made him soft despite the walls and guards and stuff. The next admin gets in and reverses at least that Bush policy and wham.

--Do you think this is going to end the wars soon? You're saying you're not so sure, but what about? I can't gather that from the segment on Lawrence O'Donnell.

And good morning, Comrade Malaise. :)

[malaise]

26. Good Morning Comrade Leader

The more I think about it, the more I wonder who built that nice fortified compound for Bin Laden. I mean he was thriving in a 'military' town surrounded by army men.

What's more the way the Bush goons are crawling out in numbers is très interesting. Remember frightening American with that bogey Bin Laden worked very well for ReTHUGS for close to a decade.

[Kurovski]

28. Your thoughts seem to align somewhat with mine.

And yes, remember that Boogedy Boo Ladin was the american warman's go-to guy in old Afghanistan. The o'Donnell segment really equated 2004 Bush's "Osama who?" speech with the construction of the compound AFTER Bush gets *elected*, in 2005.

Yes yes dear Comrade. Some are well rewarded for their efforts.

Maybe it blew Cheney/Bush away that This admin. actually did it? Maybe George wept! :rofl:

[malaise]

30. Well Bush is the only one who hasn't crawled out yet

Won't be long

[Kurovski]

33. He's practicing not sounding like a blazing asshole.

It'll take some time.

I'm goin' ta bed. You watch the troops, Comrade Lootnant!

[PassingFair]

29. Immediately following 9/11, Clarke's voice was the ONLY voice I trusted.

He seemed to be the only person who really knew
what had happened and was willing to tell the
truth.

I will be forever grateful to him for that.

His book, "Against All Enemies" was the most
comprehensive explanation of the "war on terror"
available at that time by an "insider".

He exposed several people in that book.

[Kurovski]

37. So very many people were grateful for him stepping up.

I was too. :hi:

[Keith Bee]

31. 95% of what we see is propaganda

What's his point?

[Kurovski]

38. Maybe for folks to calm down? Start thinking about what's next.

That is what I gathered from this. he's generally a thoughtful person, i mean in the sense that he seems to think about things.

[myrna minx]

39. I'm ruminating about the possible ramifications for the Pakistani military if they were found to be

protecting him (which seems bloody likely).

[malaise]

40. What if he was protected by Bushcos goons

Mushie et al, who are all connected to the Military or intelligence.

Doesn't Musharraf live in the neighborhood?

[myrna minx]

41. My friend and I were discussing this last night -

This is a very big deal and I'm still trying to process it. It seems like his compound was a "plea bargain" with the Pakistani military. He was allowed to hide in plain sight, while our troops are on a wild goose chase in the mountains.

Think about this - that the Seals mission went in and probably jammed the Pakistani military communications so they couldn't tip off anyone at the compound. So it seems that they were assuming that the military were at least complicit. Does that make sense? Again - I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this.

[emulatorloo]

42. I doubt Clarke's position is as simplistic as that headline

Don't have access to the video right now but will check it out.

Clarke interviews usually don't lend themselfs to accurate msm headlines.

[Kurovski]

50. You are correct. and it is only four minutes long.

He says there is a risk

He played up the work to be done, and I believe he was acknowledging the general emotional satisfaction being played out in the media, perhaps hoping to redirect the discussion I will look for the transcript and bring it to this post if I find it.

EDIT: I only find a partial transcript from a conservative site. (even though they don't state the fact that it's partial) Try to see it. Maybe someone is better at hunting this down?

[WatsonT]

43. Important victories are often propaganda victories as well

[spanone]

44. it's also a strategic and psychological victory

[Kurovski]

51. Yes, as he says it feels good. After all these years to get him is great

As rachel Maddow said, after three president's attempts, Preident Obama was the one who did it. (paraphrase)

New York City was happy, certainly.

[KittyWampus]

45. Information gotten off the computers there might be very helpful strategically.

[Kurovski]

49. Yes. President Obama chose plan "B" which was riskier than plan "A"

which would have been to bomb the compound, thus losing info.

As Clarke says, Obama should be commended on taking the riskier choice (which also saved lives of those in the compound not related to the mission) It was a "gutsy choice"

Clarke also strongly praises the Team that performed. It was risky and they pulled it off.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Well, a Pyrrhic victory is better than no victory at all...I guess.

"The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him." - Plutarch

The Russians learned about Pyrrhic victories in the same part of the world.

[Kurovski]

52. Russia is the reason America trained obama to be the military man he was in the first place.

Obama snd his advisors take everything in account (fall of empire!) I'm guessing.

He spoke directly to the arab and ME people, and I hope he does it again soon. There is some mutual respect there.

Now is a good time for OMG--I can't remember what it's called--when nations visit, talk? What Sec State Clinton's dept is supposed to do? That. :)

I'm sorry, I'm a mess today.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. If "propaganda" convinces the next 12 year old not to strap bombs to himself, I'll fucking take it

The whole war on terror runs on symbolic resources and action. That is, persuasion.

Call it propaganda, call it rhetoric. Doesn't matter. It has actual effects in the world.

[JuniperLea]

56. Well said...

This is a mostly mental and emotional "war" anyway. Fear has been the most oft used weapon... whatever this is supposed to be called, it seems to have negated a lot of fear for a lot of people. Whether or not the fear is just is not for us to determine. I'm pretty sick of the emotion police... they are as ridiculous as the thought police.

[Kurovski]

57. Here is a short interview with Christiane Amanpour

regarding the ME and young people in ME. They reject Bin Laden's philosophy.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/bin-laden-dead-muslim-world-reacts-13508503

I can't say enough how important Obama's speech to the middle east was, despite right wing dislike of it.

[kenny blankenship]

58. If all it does is to bring Pakistanis to face the fact that their govt/military sponsors terror

then that is good enough reason to go kill/snatch OBL in Pakistan.

As Imran Khan said, right now Pakistan is in a collective state of depression and shock that OBL was caught there. And not because they liked him.

[Kurovski]

61. It looks like it could mean much more, and by that I mean good.

Changes are afoot, and I'm thinking Obama will move to open up a new era with the ME.

Even if he is "owned" by Goldman Sachs, or whatever.

I do take your point, Kenny.

[Kurovski]

59. Obama is the perfect person to be President at this time in history.

There...I said it.

His understanding of Islam is a good thing. Sorry all you folks who say he's a "Muslin". He's a Christian, but he knows Islam and we need that to sew up the damage we've done in this beleaguered world.

[Puregonzo1188]

60. Did anyone think otherwise?

[DefenseLawyer]

62. Captain Red Legs Terrell from "The Outlaw Josey Wales"

Fletcher: We get Wales and it ends.

Terrell: Doin' right ain't got no end.