98,000 Facebook "Likes" For This: David Sirota - "'USA! USA!' Is The Wrong Response"

[Hissyspit]

(I am reading that correctly, right? 98K = 98,000?)

http://www.salon.com/news/osama_bin_laden/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa

MONDAY, MAY 2, 2011 07:03 ET

WAR ROOM

"USA! USA!" is the wrong response

BY DAVID SIROTA

There is ample reason to feel relief that Osama bin Laden is no longer a threat to the world, and I say that not just because I was among the many congressional staffers told to flee the U.S. Capitol on 9/11. I say that because he was clearly an evil person who celebrated violence against all whom he deemed "enemies" -- and the world needs less of such zealotry, not more.

However, somber relief was not the dominant emotion presented to America when bin Laden’s death was announced. Instead, the Washington press corps -- helped by a wild-eyed throng outside the White House -- insisted that unbridled euphoria is the appropriate response. And in this we see bin Laden’s more enduring victory -- a victory that will unfortunately last far beyond his passing.

For decades, we have held in contempt those who actively celebrate death. When we’ve seen video footage of foreigners cheering terrorist attacks against America, we have ignored their insistence that they are celebrating merely because we have occupied their nations and killed their people. Instead, we have been rightly disgusted -- not only because they are lauding the death of our innocents, but because, more fundamentally, they are celebrating death itself. That latter part had been anathema to a nation built on the presumption that life is an "unalienable right."

But in the years since 9/11, we have begun vaguely mimicking those we say we despise, sometimes celebrating bloodshed against those we see as Bad Guys just as vigorously as our enemies celebrate bloodshed against innocent Americans they (wrongly) deem as Bad Guys. Indeed, an America that once carefully refrained from flaunting gruesome pictures of our victims for fear of engaging in ugly death euphoria now ogles pictures of Uday and Qusay’s corpses, rejoices over images of Saddam Hussein’s hanging and throws a party at news that bin Laden was shot in the head.

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[Renew Deal]

1. Sirota's argument is moronic.

"Instead, we have been rightly disgusted -- not only because they are lauding the death of our innocents"

He is making a contorted argument that Bin Laden was innocent. Sirota is part of the permanent outrage squad that will say anything to continue the outrage. He's a birther in reverse.

There is no shame in celebrating the likely end to an ugly chapter in american history. There was no shame in celebrating the end of WW2 in Times Square. There was no shame in celebrating the end of the civil war at the White House. There is no shame in this.

[sibelian]

8. It isn't an "argument".

It's a simple statement of the obvious.

Now THIS on the other hand,

"He is making a contorted argument that Bin Laden was innocent. Sirota is part of the permanent outrage squad that will say anything to continue the outrage. He's a birther in reverse."

... is moronic.

[Leopolds Ghost]

11. I thought "permanent outrage squad" was the sort of rhetoric levied against DU and similar sites.

Mark my words, they will eventually use this to justify assassinations in general. Every liberal I know here in the urban area already supports targeted assassinations in principle, including of heads of state and their children like Gaddafi, no matter how evil or otherwise. They are enemies of the state. We don't need to see their picture to celebrate their demise. We only need to be told they are dead and it's a Pavlovian response.

[alarimer]

86. I do not support assassinations of heads of state, no matter how awful.

This liberal thinks it is unconscionable for us to do that.
I also fucking hate the "rah, rah, USA! USA!" bullshit that seems to occur no matter what.

[Renew Deal]

16. His argument or "statement" is obviously wrong.

[jefferson_dem]

21. Since it's obvious, please help us understand exactly how we are permitted to behave...

when we are happy or excited about some event. Perhaps there is a comprehensive list of "approved behaviors" somewhere. I would hate to be act out improperly...according to the dictates of the enlightened.

[Leopolds Ghost]

31. There is no such thing as criticizing a person for saying some emotion is inappropriate.

Either you agree or disagree. This argument that you can't disagree with an emotion is bullshit. People have the freedom to tell you that they think you (or I) are full of shit.

Any New Yorker (especially those who cussed at the ones who said "I wish he'd been captured alive") would agree.

[Renew Deal]

34. I don't think the argument is that you can't disagree

I think the argument is that the people "disagreeing" are wrong.

BTW, those that wanted him captured alive also wanted his head on a pike.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. So we should have captured him alive and cut off his head then. Stop pussyfooting around!

The fuckin' hypocrites want to lie to me and tell me they "could have" taken him alive but wanted to keep up APPEARANCES of morality must be upheld?

[Renew Deal]

44. Who are you talking about?

Who's telling you anything? People that say they "wanted him alive" are saying they wanted to make his existence very painful.

[Leopolds Ghost]

48. There's three groups, those who wanted him brought to justice, those who wanted him tortured

And those who wanted him painlessly and extrajudicially executed on the spot without finding out what he knew.

[Renew Deal]

50. I don't think those are the only choices and

It depends on what you mean by "brought to justice." I say he was brought the justice.

[Leopolds Ghost]

51. The problem is that US is holding up Israeli-style targeted assassination as appropriate in all case

If it's appropriate in the worst, most high profile cases (bin Laden) then it's appropriate for foot soldiers and women.

Really, the only reason the people in Gitmo are kept alive and not quietly exposed to death in overheated boxcar containers, is because we needed the info they had to find other, active terrorists. Otherwise, what's good for bin Laden is good for any terrorist we capture, American or foreign.

[snooper2]

62. There is a fourth group...If you had been paying attention...

Those who wanted Osama brought back to Seattle..

To have a one-on-one no holds barred no gloves no timeout fight with.....


Kimbo Slice!

[Leopolds Ghost]

66. The beard makes it too easy for Bin Laden to escape detection. is Kimbo 6'4"?

[nashville_brook]

82. +1

[Leopolds Ghost]

9. A society bereft of religious or non-religious ethical underpinnings will of course have no shame.

You have no shame in celebrating the fact that we could have taken him alive for questioning but instead chose one in the heart, one in the head, like the Mafia or pre-Old Testament "frontier" justice. Because this is ultimately about celebrating a return to humanity's savage roots by creating a monster in our minds.

The fact that Osama was a monster in real life is irrelevant to your ethical personal response (most people in the US don't have one. They've been raised on the notion that bloodthirst is OK.)

[Renew Deal]

14. You have no proof we could have taken him alive for questioning.

And if he wanted to be taken alive, he would have surrendered 13 years ago. Sirota made the argument that americans aren't raised with the notion that bloodthirst is OK. Clearly you disagree.

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. They said so on CNN repeatedly that the scenario offered in yesterday's press conf. was a polite lie

And that anyone who bought into that polite lie was essentially an enemy of the US.

Mind you, I supported the scenario offered in the press conference and thought it
was an eminently reasonable approach to dealing with Bin Laden --

UNTIL I WAS TOLD by every cable commentator that I was being lied to for the benefit
of mollifying "traitors" like me who wanted to see him taken alive for questioning.

[Renew Deal]

39. CNN said that the scenario offered yestreday was a polite lie and

"that anyone who bought into that polite lie was essentially an enemy of the US?" Please get me the clip of that. I'd like to see it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

49. Wolf Blitzer and others have repeatedly said that this was for consumption by those abroad

And all his guests (and admin officials on other networks) offered that red-blooded Americans of course all wanted him killed on the spot, not captured or interrogated.

I am an opponent of the death penalty and targeted assassinations, but I can make an exception for the former in the case of someone like bin Laden. It's not my call, and he would do more harm to the world alive.

But I can't stand up and cheer if we had the chance to take him alive but simply killed him on the spot instead. It doesn't even make sense unless he had something to hide.

[alarimer]

88. If this had happened under Bush, you would be saying the same thing Sirota is.

I hate, hate, hate, flag-waving and rah-rah USA whether it is at the Olympics, a hockey game, or when we blow someone or something up. It is unseemly and rather disgusting no matter what. We like killing, that's for sure.

Besides which, despite the fact that Obama killed Osama (well, not personally but you know what I mean), Osama has actually won. We have given up rights and personal freedom in the name of security. We now commit acts of terror (drones, etc). We have killed many, many thousands more than Osama could ever hope to. We have displaced millions from their homes in Iraq and Afghanistan. We torture and hold people in indefinite, illegal detention for no good reason. One dead terrorist more or less is not going to change anything. It certainly isn't going to bring all those dead people back. What is should do (but probably won't) is cause an immediate end to all our ongoing wars. They are bullshit now.

[Leopolds Ghost]

96. Good post. But there's always been a strong tradition of dealing with our probs thru bloodshed.

Some countries, like Pakistan, China and the US, have always had a strong "violence positive" tradition, while other cultures are "violence negative" where violence is reserved for a warrior elite (if any) and condemned among the rest of the population. Which is why the Olympics were founded, BTW. And the Code of Chivalry -- to give young males an outlet in countries that had become obsessed with violence and bloodshed. Here in the US, they use video games and TV shows, although that seems to have the reverse effect, what with CNN host saying "this is just like an episode of 24!" on TV today.

[JuniperLea]

2. I think it's ridiculous that so many assume they know what was in the minds of all the celebrators..

I took it as an end to this oppressive fear we've been under. Especially since most of the revelers appeared to be college age... ten years in the life of a 20 year old is a big deal.

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. The celebrators I saw were mostly white republicans from GWU. I wanted to join their number

Until I realized that fact (plus the Metro was closing, plus the initial euphoria began to look like a mob baying for bin Laden's blood, and I realized that the whole thing was vaguely immoral) in light of the fact that none of the people involved actually wanted to see him taken alive for any reason, even strategic.

Many of them were waving campaign signs (Obama or Bush) btw. And chanting "USA USA! We killed him!"

What fascinates me is that they seemed relieved that he was not captured alive, as if they were afraid to confront the demon face-to-face.

A very pre-Old Testament mentality.

I'm not saying it wasn't mostly healthy relief. I'm saying if bin Laden's body had been present, it would have been cut up and burned in a very CELEBRATORY fashion.

[JuniperLea]

18. Fear does that to people...

I wouldn't join in, but I won't condemn either.

I don't like the murder of human beings... not when OBL did it, nor when we did it. I didn't like the murder of Saddam Hussein either... I detest killing, period.

That said, I hope the celebration brought closure to some.

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. I agree with you JuniperLea. My main concern is that I feel like people like me have been marginaliz

My values and teachings taught me to believe that "one in the heart, one in the head" is not the way to capture a defeated fugitive who must be brought to some form of justice, even Hitler in his bunker (who took the easy way out -- but how do we know? Only from eyewitness accounts -- the Soviets destroyed the evidence in the name of "not creating a shrine").

Sure, if he attempts to kill you, then it's justified, but that is because of the ancient moral distinction that ALL killing is wrong and only justifiable in self-defense. This is in fact goes back to before the days of Christianity -- the foundation for old tribal vendetta system was the basis that anyone in your tribe who kills a member of my tribe, EVEN when justified, is creating bad mojo and VICE VERSA and must be paid back at least monetarily -- "weregild", a system that survives in Anglo-saxon jurisprudence today (now it's called a wrongful-death suit instead of weregild).

For people who are religious pacifists (or technical semi-pacifists) it was even difficult (during WWII) to discuss targeted assassinations of, say, Hitler during the Reich. But there it was at least easily justified on the grounds that he was an active menace and the moral calculus was whether his death would have cut back on the daily murder of innocents by the Nazis (I'm sure it would have, although interestingly, according to Valkyrie and other sources, others disagreed and thought things might have gotten worse under Himmler, especially if the Nazis sued for peace and the Holocaust continued).

Especially when, in this case, interrogation might yield important info on 9-11 itself. Unless we knew that he didn't have any details on the operation and that KSM was the real architect of 9-11, in which case our whole national emotional response to Bin Laden (evil as he is) seems to be founded on the same polite fiction that they gave when they said "in public, we'll tell everyone we could have captured him alive if he didn't resist, but as the CNN commentators will note, that is for morons to believe." After all, KSM of all people is in custody and awaiting some form of trial. Why don't they have the courage to come out and say "we would have executed him on the spot regardless?"

It is funny that the US seems to be on the verge of stating that the old doctrine "A king does not kill a king" (to paraphrase the movie Kingdom of Heaven) is out of date since plans are underway to "binLadenize" Ghaddafi. Ironically, if anything, it is people who are NOT heads of state and people who are NOT heads of a terrorist movement (i.e. foot soldiers) who are more deserving of such protection against extrajudicial killing of a defeated foe. But the video game morality of the Youtube generation does not permit such debates.

What concerns me is not the way in which bin Laden was killed, but the emotional response as if to say "one in the heart one in the head -- this is the way to deal with all America's enemies."

[Last_Stand]

24. I felt similarly...

I had an uneasy feeling from the footage I saw, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

The crowds on the news looked like they were mostly young people under 25, so it made sense to me that they would behave as if their team just won the super bowl or something.

P.S. I love your avatar.

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. Thanx Last Stand. Yeh, I'm unfortunately very up on the demographics around GWU

And sadly many of the college-age people who've moved into DC don't care about the destruction of the "People's House" in the name of fighting terrorism. They don't remember what DC or America used to be like before security culture of the Long War era. They have a very visceral, uninformed response to the news -- they don't read newspapers (ugh! dead trees) or political blogs and don't know a KSM from an OBL, so their emotional response doesn't seem to go bigger than "we killed the bad guy".

I got the real sense that many of them would not have flooded the streets had he simply been captured, but would have stayed home and texted each other expressions of fear and disgust of the "what do we do with him?" variety.

Admittedly, it's a concern. I would have let bin Laden pick up a gun first. And not shot his wife...

[Leopolds Ghost]

55. Not that there's anything wrong with disgust at the prospect of NOT killing him on sight.

It's only human to desire, acted on or otherwise, to terminate such an evil person with extreme prejudice.

But it casts a pall of bad mojo on the resulting celebrations of his death. They weren't celebrating the end of the war -- they want war to continue -- they were celebrating the death of the Great Enemy specifically.

[CrispyQ]

101. Brian Schweitzer said it well:

... "I don't believe we ought to be dancing in the streets and waving American flags," he said. "... This is not like winning a hockey game," he said. "We killed an evil individual."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4836470


I'm all for acknowledging relief that an evil man is gone, but to celebrate like it's a party is inappropriate & crude.

[2banon]

103. I wondered if these were GOP kids.. Mosly white faces on my tv screen

I noticed Bush/Cheney banners as well. Figured these were military or spawns of state/intelligence community, etc .. who else would actually cheer in mirror image/fashion with the taliban et al fanatics?

[gtar100]

104. Like somebody said this morning... where did all those flags come from?

Somebody got their thumb on the heart beat of opportunity?

[dkf]

3. Trying to dictate emotions and response are we?

Good luck on that.

We all have our own preferences. Getting other people to toe our line is another story.

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. That's a little touchy. We're all free to criticize other people's response. It's the relativists

Who insist that there is no correct response (and therefore no reason NOT to celebrate death and destruction EXCEPT fear of what our neighbors think, i.e. proto-simian ethics.)

[Renew Deal]

19. You know what's funny about your statement about "relativists"

The pope considers relativists a threat.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. Guess what, I don't care.

Ever heard of the religious left? Besides which, there is no basis for the left to even fucking EXIST under relativism, which the anti-postmodern left pointed out in the '90s when liberalism sowed the seeds of its own destruction by creating this elaborate "nobody's right, nobody's wrong" charade.

If nobody's wrong, then in YOUR opinion targeted assassinations, reprisal-based justice, etc. is wrong and a lynch mob mentality is healthy, but you can't impose that on anyone else even as a prescription.

[Renew Deal]

33. I just find the criticism of relativism on DU ironic.

I disagree that celebrating this also means that one supports "targeted assassinations, reprisal-based justice." I also don't agree that the Bin Laden case is a "targeted assassination and reprisal-based justice."

Do you also consider these people part of the "lynch mob?"

[jefferson_dem]

42. Tsk Tsk...

The Church Lady... I mean Sirota says kissing in public's a "no no"...

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. I'm glad WWII was won but it was a horrible episode of history. But at least they chose to reflect

But today such photos are flaunted as the icing on the end of a cake that is Another Great War, perhaps the Greatest War that we should all wish we were part of. Not celebrating its end, not celebrating defeat of the Nazis even, but celebrating our team winning another glorious match.

BUT AT LEAST THEY CHOSE TO REMEMBER and not simply gloss over and forget -- to say "I'm glad Bin Laden is dead so quickly because we don't want to think about what he did, we don't want to see the photos, we don't want to remember, we as a society don't want to find out or reflect. We just want to move on and the best way to solve our problems is to eliminate them without the public having to know the details." Which is not how democracies handle things.

Many things were done during WWII that were great crimes, orders of magnitude worse than 9-11 (or would have been were it not for the symbolic cultural genocide of the Towers themselves, a cultural genocide COMPOUNDED by the WTC's owner who chose not to rebuild them because he had wanted -- as I read back in 2000 -- the towers rebuilt anyway because of the asbestos / fire code violations and problems insuring such a tall building, that were made manifest when the towers fell. But no attempt was made to rebuild them to code, which compounded the cultural destruction committed by bin Laden. Instead, they're building a monument to Wall Street greed in its place, as if to say that capitalism, not democracy, defeated terrorism.)

[themadstork]

58. Why?

Criticism of relativism is hardly exclusive to politics. Because the pope derides it, anyone who takes the anti-relativism position is harming the cause? Is that what you're getting at?

[JuniperLea]

20. Thought AND Emotion Police Force...

Yep.

[Eyerish]

4. K&R

[jefferson_dem]

5. More sanctimony from Sirota.

"Celebration Nazis" bore me...

We all respond differently to important events and express our emotions in our own particular way. Sirota's attitude reminds me of what we routinely see from right wing dogmatists who strive to dictate "proper behavior" for everyone else.

[Leopolds Ghost]

22. Why is it proper and OK to deride & assault people who wanted to see him taken alive and confronted?

Even for interrogation? Apparently people don't have the courage of their convictions. The only appropriate response they can imagine once OBL is found is to kill him on sight.

I wanted to us as a nation to find out what bin Laden knew. They didn't.

[cottonseed]

6. Same deal. He's responding to cable news networks coverage of kids drinking beer.

I can't for the life of me figure out how the coverage by CNN, Fox, and other infotainment networks of a few thousand college aged kids partying into the night chanting USA became a point of national discussion.

[Leopolds Ghost]

85. Because it COULD have been a historic gathering and it turned into a bunch of frat parties instead.

Talk about missing the point of the occasion.

[Gravel Democrat]

7. ^^^

[Initech]

10. I'm reminded of a Bill Maher quote on this very subject:

"You can't speak ill of the dead. But speaking ill of the dead is what these guys do for a living!"

It was about Jerry Falwell at the time but I think this applies to nearly any religious fundamentalist from any religion who does such a thing. Bin Laden was such an individual who routinely spoke ill of the dead.

[Yavin4]

13. Sirota Provides Yet Another Example of How Completely Out of Touch Progressive Intellectuals

are with the American people. This is why we're in the majority on the issues, yet we cannot translate our positions into electorial victories. We don't understand, nor seemingly want to understand, and connect with the American people.

Sirota and others ridicule the young people spontaneously demonstrating glee outside the White House in 2011, and then are confused when they don't vote.

[sabrina 1]

27. Interesting, you seem to be saying that most people

agreed with the partying. I have found the opposite to be true, most people found it to uncomfortable at least. Both in RL and reading around the web, nearly everyone I read, in comments or spoke to, wondered why this was worthy of celebration. And most americans have been raised with the idea that once someone is dead, they should be left to god, whatever their faith may be.

So, actually only a small number of Americans seem to feel the need to celebrate which places Sirota in line with a majority of Americans. Even my Repub friends and relatives found the celebrations 'unseemly'.

[cottonseed]

37. Yes, it was a small number of Americans. A minuscule number in fact.

That infotainment networks decided to make a focus of their coverage. They were college aged kids that wanted to knock back a few brews and chant USA because the cartoon of OBL was destroyed.

Why Sirota thinks this is an important enough cultural moment to dedicated an article to escapes me. Unless he's just looking for a story too.

[Yavin4]

56. The World Is Larger Than What's Immediately Around You n/t

[themadstork]

61. Oh please.

Getting really sick of this meme. You act as if every progressive should respond in some uniform way.

[Yavin4]

76. Never Said That

I am saying that people should not demean those celebrating, and they should at least try to understand the sentiment behind the celebrations. Not doing so shows that you cannot, on fundamental basis, connect with your fellow American.

And by reading so many posts from people like you, I've come to believe that there's a strain of Progressives who don't want to understand and connect with the "rabble that celebrate a murder". Am I right?

[themadstork]

77. Stupid shaming tactic

What is this "connect with your fellow American" crap? Do you have priviledged access to the soul of every American?

Why don't you offer an actual argument instead of making this some sleazy "eww, you don't love your fellow American, you filthy sociopath!" contest?

[Yavin4]

81. Enjoy Your High Ground

Just don't complain when there aren't enough elected Progressives to advance your agenda seeing as how you don't want to connect with your fellow American.

[themadstork]

97. Asking you to provide an argument instead of this "I care about teh Americans and you don't" BS is

the high ground?

Have fun acting superior to those that disagree with you. Because THAT is super effective, in terms of boosting progressives' popularity. Yep.

[sabrina 1]

17. Even more remarkable than the celebratory atmosphere

is that we in the US are probably the only people left in the world who actually care about Bin Laden. Most people thought he was dead long ago.

The biggest myth of all told to the American people was that Bin Laden was such a huge hero in the Arab World and that Al Queda was an enormous organization that was a threat to the entire civilized world.

The truth is as the Arab Spring made more than clear, Bin Laden was pretty much irrelevant to most people in the Arab World. The young people who are rising up across the region are fighting for the exact opposite of what Bin Laden represented. They want decent living standards and freedom from the oppression of their US backed dictators.

While America dwelled in the past, in the Arab World the future was what they worried about, a future made impossible so long as the US continued to support every, brutal oppressive dictator in the world.

So, instead of looking at the present and the future of this world and our place in it, we continued to spend what some analysts say will be more than 3 trillion dollars on the false assumption that Al Queda was a powerful organization likely to enlist the entire Arab World to its extremist cause. When the exact opposite was true.

All we have accomplished is to lose the respect of the world, as the US continued to kill and be killed in illegally occupied lands, draining the treasury, the rest of the world moved on and the biggest threat to our security became our loss of moral authority. No one listens to the US anymore (see China's response to our attempt to talk about human rights abuses).

IF the US had focused on NOT supporting dictators while it would have cost so much less money, and gained so much more.

I doubt the death of Bin Laden will even be talked about in the rest of the world a week or so from now. America has become like an addict, alone in their insulated world, focused on only their own addiction, (to war and violence in this case) and the selling of fear to the American people.

So, I guess the world, other than our brutal European colonial allies, will just shake their heads as they watch the celebrations and wonder how we could be so out of touch with what is important in this world. And why we thought this man was so important.

But one thing is for sure, OBL got what he said he wanted years ago. 'America will invade a ME country and drain its resources'.

Now it's past time to bring home the troops and stop building bases for war around the globe. And cut the Pentagon budget at least in half.

Trillions of dollars to supposedly get this sad, forgotten man! Sometimes I wonder who is in charge of this country.

[leftstreet]

23. +1

This would be a great OP

:thumbsup:

[dkf]

40. Yet look at Libya. We aren't supporting Qaddafi and they still can't topple him.

Al Quida directed their anger at us instead of their own situation. In a way what happened in Egypt redirects anger. Gosh does this actually validate Bush's push to topple Saddam. Ick I hope not.

[sabrina 1]

53. Libya is a different situation than Egypt and Tunisia and Syria

and Yemen and Bahrain. Their leader never pretended to be an ally of the Western Powers, even after he agreed to let them profit somewhat from Libya's resources, he let it be known he was just using their greed and needs to enrich Libya and was always a problem for the Western powers to deal with.

So, unlike Ben Ali and Mubarak, Qaddafi, hard as it is for the West to accept, was not hated by his own people the way other dictators were. The Libyan people eg, except for those who traditionally hated him due to Libya's own history, and a minority of the population, do not support his downfall facilitated by the very same Global interests that invaded Iraq. If he did not have the support of a majority of Libyans, as we initially thought was the case, they would have succeeded just as the Egyptians and Tunisians did.

Toppling Qaddafi, if it comes from the west, will not end but maybe even escalate the war in that country. Which may be why the West is reluctant to do so right now.

[dkf]

68. Egypt could have broken with us and gone the way of Libya.

Who knows?

[sabrina 1]

73. Egypt is going its own way now, no more tolerance for

foreign control of their affairs. They will deal, as a SOVEREIGN nation with other nations, the US included, but the old US backed dictatorships with zero concerns for what those dictators were doing to their own people, that era is gone. It's a new world and the US will have adjust to not seeing itself as the ruler of the world. The world doesn't want us interfering in their internal affairs. It started in Latin America, most of those countries now have democratic governments and are no longer under the control of US backed dictators.

It is the US that now has to think about its position in this new world. We are still supporting brutal dictators, and puppet governments, as in Iraq and in Uzbekistan one of the worst dictators in the world. We have been thoroughly exposed as hypocrites who talk about democracy while supporting the exact opposite.

Like spoiled chidren, we can no longer just take what we want, we will have to start acting like grownups and deal honestly with and respect sovereign nations ruled by governments chosen by their people, NOT by the US. Our 'interests' have conflicted greatly with the interests of most of the ME, Africa and Latin America and that is what is changing. THEY have interests also, which we arrogantly ignored for so long.

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. Excellent post. n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

79. +1000. Again I wonder how Americans would see it if GWB had been killed by someone of Arab/Muslim

origin and then saw on television huge crowds in the Middle East celebrating and dancing in the streets? Once again the media would be coming up with a whole slew of "security experts" and "Middle East experts" telling us that this is another example of their culture of death.

I'm relieved that bin Laden is gone and I'm not sorry he is dead. But for crying out loud there is such a thing as decency.

[CrispyQ]

100. Outstanding response, Sabrina.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. "Osama Bin Laden is dead" page has 356,464 has "likes"

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Osama-Bin-Laden-is-dead-5111/196544407056656?ref=ts&sk=wall

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightGardener]

30. Thank God we have wise learned ones among us to outline exactly

what sort of emotion and response is called for--because you can't leave it up to the rest of us dummies to conduct ourselves appropriately. From everything I've read, here's what's acceptable: Quiet Somber Reflection, Candle Lighting, Abhorrence of OBL's Violent Death (Resignation to it allowed, but absolutely no sense of satisfaction that the bastard got what he deserved), Cynicism of the Government's Account, Avoidance of Pride In Your Country, Military and Government Agencies, and above all, use the disclaimer "Relieved he's dead, but I'm not cheering" etc. Anything else and you are INAPPROPRIATE.

[bobbolink]

32. Actually, no, we can't.

[sabrina 1]

35. Anything else and you're in the minority, which is fine btw.

Most Americans did not feel like celebrating. Most have been raised to believe that after death, their god takes over.

I saw very few signs that a majority of Americans were moved to any kind of party atmosphere by this news. It seems to have been just a relative few, mostly Rightwing Repubs who cheer at the death of any 'raghead' and always have. That is what I have found in RL, most find it unseemly, but the few who want to party that I know, are Fox News viewers indoctrinated for years to cheer the torture and death of Muslims. Although as I already said, even my Repub relatives and friends, expressed a negative reaction to the cheering scenes mostly saying 'I don't know why, but this bothers me'.

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. I'm glad the bastard is dead, but I'm midly upset at how it was carried out. Is that on your list?

I was taught that America was better than to execute an unarmed foe by senior directive.

At least let him pick up a weapon first. Suicide him, so to speak.

I'm a bit concerned that most Americans didn't want him taken alive even briefly and I have to wonder what they were afraid he'd say. After all, he was only harbored by our allies the Palestinians, and living in a house he probably bought from the same Pakistani general who financed the 9-11 hijackers, who no doubt lives in the same suburb of Islamabad. (And as one commentator noted, evidence has suggested that the evil efficiency with which the hijackers themselves carried out the attack is the only reason it succeeded -- all competence within Al Qaeda died with them, as competence is not a typical trait among the criminally insane.)

Many many people were even hectoring older military types on TV asking them why we didn't desecrate his corpse. Colin Powell responded that America was better than that and our values taught us to be better than our enemies. But those aren't the same values that kids who grew up under Bush, playing modern warfare and longing for the headshot, have.

[mmonk]

41. Might not be the right response but we are barbarians.

What does one expect? A response of relief is too civilized.

[PBS Poll-435]

43. Salon.com should be disbanded

or NATIONALIZED :evilgrin:


Can't take any more of this bullshit.

[nashville_brook]

83. how utterly "American"

[Mz Pip]

45. I don't care to be told

how I am supposed to feel or how I should feel or why it is a bad thing that I feel a certain way.

My emotions in all of this are not black and white, they are complicated. I don't necessarily feel euphoria but I am pretty damn happy bin Laden is dead.

[otohara]

54. He Never Approves Of "Our" Behavior

When he gets on his high horse, which is every day on his radio soapbox.
His show is getting decent ratings and as a former employee in the radio biz, with ratings comes ass-holiness.
I tune out now, more than I tune in.

see my response #53

[EFerrari]

64. When he subs for Thom, I can't watch or listen to him.

The only thing he puts any energy into is his self promotion. I understand that but it's still unwatchable.

[bobbolink]

90. I agree. He is totally self-absorbed. But in this, he had a salient point.

[markpkessinger]

57. The Importance of Restraint

From yesterday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1018652

[cottonseed]

60. I've been JIPed! The Journalism Industrial Complex

CNN/Fox/MSNBC film a thousand drunken college kids chanting USA with a beer in hand =>
Sirota wastes today's column on analyzing the significance of that to America =>
CNN/Fox/MSNBC invite Sirota to go head to head with Conservative taking opposite position =>
CNN/Fox/MSNBC run nightly Poll (Do you believe loving the USA is wrong?) =>
Sirota moves on to next outrage =>
Democrats left defending our disgust of people that love America

[Tarheel_Dem]

65. Unrec. The new "moral minority" can kiss my ass. I don't need a bunch of

"liberaler than thou's" telling me how to respond to this event. Sorry David, but the thought police operate better on the right, than on the left. :thumbsdown:

[markpkessinger]

69. One need not be "more liberal than thou" to take heed of Sirota's message. . .

Yesterday, I posted a thread on this topic titled, "A Lesson Learned at My Father's Knee" ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1018652 ). For the record, my father was a staunch Republican.

[Leopolds Ghost]

70. I thoroughly agree with David Sirota and was surprised anyone agreed with me on this.

I'd just go one step further and say I don't like to be lied to (by officials) in the name of mollifying those of us who wanted to see bin Laden captured, by pretending they would have done so if they could, when they had no intention of doing so. Especially if they (or the cable hosts) have quiet contempt for those of us who would have preferred capture. You see what I mean? It is the greatest sin (well, not greater than what bin Laden and his allies did) for them to lie in the name of pretending to do something moral. It would actually be much more understandable to come clean and say exactly what they did and that "this was about blood for blood" then to pretend it was done in the name of some higher justice and that "we made plans to capture him if necessary". But lying to the public has become so habitual that the cable news actually tells us that the less savvy people who are no longer listening are being lied to and that the "inside folks" who tune in to the news analysis are part of some sort of elite who know the real story. The papers do the same thing. That is why we have a whole generation of affluent, highly educated folks out there who don't question how they're TOLD to feel (by the media -- no need for Sirota to tell them how to feel when people are told how to feel and what to believe every day, which is why they object so strenuously to anyone who argues they should feel any differently from the prescribed response) and are simply satisfied with a visceral "kill first, don't ask questions later".

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. Thanks, but no thanks. Could care less.....

:hi:

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

67. Recommend

[ProSense]

72. Osama bin Laden is dead:

Controversy swirling about how people should feel about it!

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. I'm happy he's dead, not so happy at how people reacted to it, and not so happy capture was ignored

And the body disposed of as if we were a mafia that feel compelled to eliminate evidence.

And I agree with Sirota. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I think Bin Laden should have been captured, but not because killing him is wrong. Simply because it is barbaric for Americans to bay for blood against their own best interests of capturing and interrogating a war criminal mastermind.

All killing is ultimately wrong, as most religious people teach. Anti-religious people are free to criticize such belief but religious people don't have a leg to stand on in criticizing this basic moral teaching.

That doesn't mean bin Laden's death is anything special or that he should get different treatment. However this is being held up as some sort of model to say "this is how America handles its enemies -- with targeted assassinations." We say bin Laden is solely responsible for 9-11 and we don't want to see him killed, we just want to hear that he was killed so we can go out and party. Apparently. That is pretty hypocritical.

[ProSense]

78. The

appropriate response is bullshit. You're happy, but people shouldn't chant USA?

Oh please!

It reminds me of the appropriate response police reaction to the Arizona shooting wake.

[Leopolds Ghost]

84. People shouldn't chant USA in general. That's fucking ridiculous happy horseshit.

And not the appropriate response for a momentous historical event in general.

Anyone who chants "USA USA" unless it is in the context of a military unit they're a part of,
I immediately deduct 5 points from the INT column.

It's right up there with the chant "We will rock you" at sports events in my book.

And singing "God Bless America" (a blasphemous notion in itself -- why not
America The Beautiful? Because that song, which is a much nicer and more patriotic
tune, is insufficiently dedicated to wrapping the church in the flag of the state
in the name of fighting overseas enemies) instead of "Take Me out to the Ballgame"
at the seventh inning stretch -- the beloved and historic seventh inning stretch,
another American tradition twisted into a loyalty oath by the war on terror.

[Leopolds Ghost]

87. I mean, isn't there a more classy way to celebrate the end of the War on Terror?

[ProSense]

91. Sure,

as in the instance of the death of certain people, the response could be "good riddance."

That's much more classy (and values human life) than chanting USA at the death of a bin Laden, right?

Seems to me there is a disconnect: people admonishing others for chanting, but also claiming they're happy bin Laden is dead.

[Leopolds Ghost]

93. There's a difference between being relieved that someone is dead and cheering his execution.

But then, since I don't think Bin Laden was the sole architect of 9-11 (that would be Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, who was NOT killed on sight, and the Paki general who funded the operation) I have to wonder what the big deal is.

On Edit: Perhaps I'm overthinking this. An event like this is a chance for people to come together and celebrate, regardless of what the facts are that we shall never know the whole truth about... like Christmas. (The difference being that Christmas is a celebration of life, not death)

[ProSense]

94. "cheering his execution"?

Chanting USA is cheering his execution, but being happy he's dead isn't?

[Leopolds Ghost]

95. In the post I submitted about being happy he's dead, that was a grab title. I buried the lede

Which is that I'm NOT happy he was executed on sight when we could have captured him, tried him in a war crimes tribunal and sent him to his home country for sentencing. But we no longer believe in such niceties do we?

Now, Panetta says they're desperate to interrogate his wife and daughter who the Pakistanis are going to rendition over to them. Because we want to find out what bin Laden knew... wait what?

[ProSense]

89. Here's an idea:

How about a Constitutional amendment declaring what chants or responses are appropriate?

[Leopolds Ghost]

92. I didnt say no, I just think its not classy. Is this the standard chant for all historic events now?

I don't even like it as a sports chant.

[chill_wind]

80. South Park's Team America. Bushie/USAer jingoists have parodied the parody.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/no-dignity-ground-zero-frat-boy

[The Wizard]

98. Those chanting USA USA USA

are essentially hillbillies found at professional wrestling exhibitions. It's just another form of jingoism appealing to the weak minded and uneducated. Nationalism is a key element of authoritarian fascism. Am I glad bin Laden is lunch meat for the fish? Yes, but it's 11 years too late.

[spicegal]

99. Sorry, but I don't think it's fair to suggest there's a "right" or

"wrong" response. Allow Americans to feel and express this moment of joy, gratitude, and unity without guilt. We will never rid the world of evil, but as far as I'm concerned, the death of OBL is one tiny step in the right direction. Having said that, I thought the morose coverage of Saddam Hussein's death was offensive and inappropriate. I don't care that he was given the death penalty, but it could have been carried out in private more dignified manner. OBL was actually fortunate that he was killed so quickly. I doubt he felt a thing, other than a few moments of fear knowing that his ass was about to become grass.

[JEB]

102. The revelers remind me

of the Munchkins, "Ding dong the witch is dead". Very small people indeed. I guess they need their moment before heading down the yellow brick road.

[efhmc]

105. I agree. I've seen this response too many times from

terrorists and other groups celebrating something bad happening here to be okay with it.